KLS and the Flop

[jazzpt55]

Can a ref call a foul on a player for flopping? KLS plays a game very similar to
Wold Cup Soccer when a player defending her gets even close to her
she throws herself on the court....actually putting herself at risk of injury...

The Socal board has been taking about this for a few years. Yesterday
Nade fouled out a few players ...and yes they played a very rough
game with her...it worked and I expect SMS will look at the video...
actually multiple videos and do the same...

But back to my initial question can a ref call a foul on KLS...maybe a technical for flopping?

 

[kkross22]

KLS is a great player, NO DOUBT! In MY opinion she would be even better without the flopping. Not a real fan of flopping, but hey, if it works for you, if the refs are going to continue to call it, why not? The thing that worries me is the risk of injury, as when you throw your body like that, you have no control over it.
Crazy cause my kid and I was just talking about how flopping amongst elite players seems to be the norm, as many are doing it now. One thing is for sure, SMS is going to have to find a way around it if we want to win, as KLS does not miss many free throws.

This post was edited on 3/22 8:41 AM by kkross22

 

[SmoothJay]

No free throws on an offensive foul...

 

[mkbgdns]

there's this thing in basketball (unlike baseball) called a no-call. the rules allow incidental contact, a player lying (pun?) on the court is unlikely to score points, get a rebound or an assist. the refs don't have to do anything to penalize a flop, they can do so by doing nothing.

 

[Mo Green]

Originally posted by SmoothJay:
No free throws on an offensive foul...

Some players flop to draw a defensive foul, a la James Harden.

 

[Mo Green]

Originally posted by mkbgdns:
there's this thing in basketball (unlike baseball) called a no-call. the rules allow incidental contact, a player lying (pun?) on the court is unlikely to score points, get a rebound or an assist. the refs don't have to do anything to penalize a flop, they can do so by doing nothing.

Don't the rules also allow a technical for flopping? Saw them hand one out in a Euro league game and that put a stop to it quick.

 

[northbaybbguru]

I actually asked the "flopping" question to the head of the NCOA (North Coast Official Association) up here in the northbay....

the answer I got....

Flopping is considered unsportsmanlike conduct and it can be called a technical if the ref so chooses.


BUT , as we all know, it never is.....The refs are much more likely just do a no-call and play on.

As long as the refs keep rewarding the floppers...they will continue...

and since the "elite" players seem to get those calls, they will continue doing it.

KLS is not the only stud player that is notorious for flopping. We have our fair share up north also.

Just watch the State championship games next Saturday if you want to see it 1st hand....lol

 

[Nor Cal Scout]

Jazz & KKRoss - I think we have went round and round on calling individual players out on this board.

 

[kkross22]

What are you talking about Nor Cal Scout? Calling a player out? How did I call anyone out? I compliment KLS, say she's a great player, say if she can use something to her advantage, why not, and I am calling a player out? For whatever reason, you don't care for me, and that's ok. I know I meant absolutely no harm, was not trying to intentionally hurt any kid's feelings, not trying to stir up any drama up. Maybe I am wrong, but not sure anyone else thinks so either, as no one else responded directly to me. You need to stop!!!!!

 

[ClayK]

They had a session at the California Independent School Association on ethics and sports, and flopping was a major topic.

Some comments from the instructor and group:

1) Flopping, in soccer especially, is part of the game, and as long as advantage is gained, it will happen.

2) So should it be taught by coaches? Is that unethical? Divided opinions, but my feeling is that it is part of the game as played and called, and so it needs to be explained, if not taught. (For the record, I've never taught flopping, because I can't even get my girls to take legit charges often enough.)

3) In a more general sense, is influencing officials to make a certain call wrong in and of itself? When coaches talk to officials, is that unethical because it's an attempt to get a call?

4) A great comparison: Pitch framing in baseball (catchers using their gloves to influence umpires' strike zones). Catchers who are really good at it get hundreds of extra strikes a season in MBL, and significant extra money. Is that any different than flopping? Should catchers be taught to frame pitches?

5) So a player gets hit due to contact: Is it wrong to sell the contact by slightly exaggerating the impact? Officials are told to sell their calls by making them emphatic on close decisions -- should players do the same?

 

[Mo Green]

Originally posted by ClayK:
They had a session at the California Independent School Association on ethics and sports, and flopping was a major topic.

Some comments from the instructor and group:

1) Flopping, in soccer especially, is part of the game, and as long as advantage is gained, it will happen.

Flopping is just as much a part of basketball as it is soccer. One of the main differences is the inherent danger of tackles in soccer and players being taught to "ride the tackle" rather than risk a sloppy or dirty play by their opponent. The line can get fuzzy there andimbellishments start to be rewarded but the same can be said of basketball. Soccer just has a higher frequency of hard plays on the ball than basketball and thus a higher number of opportunities to take advantage.

FWIW, I think there is a difference between flopping and imbellishing. Flopping should not be tolerated in any sport.

 

[Nor Cal Scout]

kkross22 - No hate here. I took this as a negative: In MY opinion she would be even better without the flopping

The post was created by Jazz, a known MD and KLS hater and the purpose was an attempt to draw attention to KLS and he flopping and I felt you piled on. I am on the record here as stating that everyone wants to have an opinion until it is their child or their team being mentioned. You have your opinion and you have every right to express it.

 

[refhoops]

Flopping is an interesting subject. By rule; a flop is a technical which for me is a hard to call; just like slapping the backboard which by rule at the HS level is either a technical or nothing. I agree that flopping can be dangerous because you have an airborne player plus other players that the flopping player might be unintentionally hitting. For me, when I see I flop I call a blocking foul on the flopping player. Flopping player has not maintained legal guard position and should be be rewarded. Typically, the message is sent and understood by the player.

 

[Mo Green]

Originally posted by refhoops:

Flopping is an interesting subject. By rule; a flop is a technical which for me is a hard to call; just like slapping the backboard which by rule at the HS level is either a technical or nothing. I agree that flopping can be dangerous because you have an airborne player plus other players that the flopping player might be unintentionally hitting. For me, when I see I flop I call a blocking foul on the flopping player. Flopping player has not maintained legal guard position and should be be rewarded. Typically, the message is sent and understood by the player.

What about flopping by the offensive player?

 

[Nor Cal Scout]

Fine line between flopping and making sure the ref is seeing that there was contact. Player drives to the hoop, gets bumped, continues drive... no call. Player drives to the hoop, gets the same bump, flails the arms a bit and stumbles... block call. Each level the player goes up the fewer calls they get. If KLS does flop those days will come to end soon at the college level.

 

[refhoops]

Same thing; typically I see it by 3 point shooters and could call a Player Control Foul against them. In both cases, if can warn first it is better game management but something the flop is so obvious we need to penalize the player.

 

[kkross22]

Nor Cal Scout, me and Jazz are 2 very different people, no agenda here. I have seen KLS play many games, this season as well as last season. My observation is not based upon any dislike for KLS. I give her props, she is a great player, saw her shoot 6-7 3's in a row at the TOC. No hate over here. But no player, not Kobe or Lebron are too great that they can't add or omit somethings from their game at times to make it better.
Like I said, now a days, flopping, throwing your body to get a call, when there is little to no contact seems to be a norm. And I am not just talking about when going to the basket, I have seen it a lot being done at half court, as players are bring the ball down.
I just got on my kid the other day for blowing a lay up, going up way too strong because she thought the defender was going to foul her. My comment to her was shoot every shot and take every dribble as if there is no contact until there is indeed contact, once there is contact, then you adjust your shot accordingly.

 

[SouthBayHoopFan]

The new "flop" that I really hate is when a ball handler is being defended, and throws his head back to simulate being fouled by the defender. This has become common-place, and it needs to stop. I think most referees have already learned to ignore it, but please Mr RefHoops, call a technical when you see this. It severely detracts from the game and it's bad sportsmanship.

 

[northbaybbguru]

For me personally....I have the biggest problem with the OFFENSIVE flopping.

I have seen it all year long from bad teams up to great teams.

The ballhandler goes hard to the basket and launches herself into a defender and falls to the ground.

Inevitably the ref blows his whistle and rewards the ballhandler...and all the defender can do is stand there with her hands up
looking dumbfounded.

Don't penalize the girl for being bigger and stronger...... call it "Shaquille O'Neil" syndrome for the refs.

and of course at the other (offensive) end, the bigger , stronger girl will get hacked, power her way thru the foul, and get no call.

I see it all the time.

Call it what you will....flopping, gamesmanship, courty savy or basketball IQ...it is what it is.....and there isn't a lot that can be done about it unfortunately.

 

[jazzpt55]

Yes, this is the influence
I was talking about. KLS
drives to basket gets
Slightly touched and
Throws herself on the
Ground....
Then she gets the
Call where she is a
Great ft shooter....

This is not hating
This is how she plays the game...

 

[jazzpt55]

And I had a real question
As I have never seen a technical
Called on an offensive
Player for the flop
So I didn't know it
Could be called.

 

[Nor Cal Scout]

It maybe the way she plays the game but that does not mean it is still not hating! C'mon bro don't do us like that! The funny thing is I bet you walk around the house and flop all the time. We might have to rename you flopper jazz... The man with his own mural at In Shape Fitness in Stockton... Allegedly........ I speak the truth........ Oh wait that is my Ballersdream sign on I use...

 

[mkbgdns]

jazz resume now adds "flop" to "tank". w the names of high school players and teams attached. c'mon, these kids are playing, they're not celebrities where anything goes. how about "the Flop" as a thread? notice the difference.

This post was edited on 3/23 2:21 PM by mkbgdns

 

[jazzpt55]

Back to the next game and
The flop .....the way SMS
Defends KLS and way the refs
Call the game and her flop will
Be huge...

I think it will decide the game..
Socal refs seemed to have had
enough of the flop....and
Now just look at her when
She throws herself on the ground...

Does anybody know who the refs
Are for the Open?
I think they should call a tech
On her the first time she does it....

Which. Ref has the guts to make that call?

 

[bulldogmgc]

Be careful, please. We don't want to mention "referees" having a say in the outcome of this game. We might upset this one poster who is not happy SMS does not get called for enough fouls, flop or no flop.

All I can say is that if she flops and doesn't get the call, she better get off the floor quickly because SMS loves to run.

 

[Nor Cal Scout]

Jazz actually thinks a ref or coach actually read this blog! Jazz, how is stockton treating you? You still working at or did you get a job at the Hot Yoga Stand in Lodi?

 

[CAPTAIN MORGAN]

What is a KLS?

 

[ClayK]

KLS = Katie Lou Samuelson, the best player in the country in the minds of most people (but not jazz, of course).

She's tall and slender and when contact is made, she tends to fall to the ground (somewhat awkwardly as well) a little more easily than one might expect, given the apparent force of the impact.

Sometimes she gets the call and sometimes she doesn't, but it's probably a percentage play, all things considered.

And that's a good point about the officiating in the final: You just never know what will make the whistles blow until the game's begun.

Finally, I agree about shooters jumping into defenders and drawing a foul. I tell my smaller players to make sure to initiate contact on the way to the hoop, both to control the play a little more and give the ref every chance to call a foul. That's how the game is played, and called, and going back to the ethics' issue, everyone has to make a decision about how they're going to approach the reality of basketball in 2015. Are you going to teach the game as it's played, or teach the game as you feel it should be played?