STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS THOUGHTS....and beyond

[northbaybbguru]

The last few days have been REALLY fun I have to admit. Has there ever been a more entertaining boys/girls state
championship set of games? Multiple overtime games and it ended with a 6-6 tie with the north girls winning 4 and the south boys winning 4.

HAAS was perfect...standing room only and the crowd was loud and electric!! Lets hope they keep it there for many years to come.

Other than Sierra canyon...I thought all the teams were where they should have been (Division wise)....Honestly how was SierraC NOT in the south open...3 state championships in a row now? The exact opposite of Miramonte...who in my opinion has been the team in the entire state most hosed by the open format.

But overall.......What a great way to end the HS basketball season!!

Its been entertaining reading all the arguments and petty insults on this sight all year....haha

and every once in awhile we even had some good adult discussions

just kidding STREAK ONE......most of the time it was good discussion....


Now on to the AAU circuit.....cant wait!!!

 

[colhenrylives]

Pinewood wasn't helped by the Open format as well.

 

[RespectBBGame]

The Open division is a great think that happen in girls basketball. Like the say teams want to be the best have to beat the best. Yes the Socal always try to stack the division still with not sending all the top teams to the open. The think I don't like about most sections teams don't move as they win 3 back to back sections. Most of these school are private school anyway and should move up but some teams want a Championships so bad. To make the open division more fair I think the Socal should pick the Norcal teams and Norcal pick the Socal. Pinewood should be in the open or D4 not D5. How many titles do they want ?????

 

[Box_out!]

NB --- did you really post MM has been hosed?

The first year they lost by 1 point to SMS who that year made it to NorCal finals. And MM has been to the NorCal finals two years in a row. Do you want them to win a divisional state title that really shouldn't be considered a state tilte because all of the teams that would have really won are playing for the only true state championship in the Open div? A Guru's knowledge should be better than that.

Henry--PW didn't get helped?

They were 1 play away from beating a team that made it to NorCal finals.

This type of thinking is why IMO the divisional winners should not be called state champions. The div coaches get credit for winning state titles but the coaches who make into the Open may never win.

IMO A coach who wins 10 div titles is not the same as a coach who wins 2 Open titles. A coach who wins 10 div titles is the same as a coach who makes it into the Open 10 times.

Making it into the Open is saying your an obvious state champ.

The Open state champ is the only true CA state champ. And for the record keepers of state titles this has to be acknowledged.

Here's my fact would McClatchy have won the D1 state title this year if it wasn't for the Open? No way.

 

[letsski]

Originally posted by Box_out!:

NB --- did you really post MM has been hosed?

The first year they lost by 1 point to SMS who that year made it to NorCal finals. And MM has been to the NorCal finals two years in a row. Do you want them to win a divisional state title that really shouldn't be considered a state tilte because all of the teams that would have really won are playing for the only true state championship in the Open div? A Guru's knowledge should be better than that.

Henry--PW didn't get helped?

They were 1 play away from beating a team that made it to NorCal finals.

This type of thinking is why IMO the divisional winners should not be called state champions. The div coaches get credit for winning state titles but the coaches who make into the Open may never win.

IMO A coach who wins 10 div titles is not the same as a coach who wins 2 Open titles. A coach who wins 10 div titles is the same as a coach who makes it into the Open 10 times.

Making it into the Open is saying your an obvious state champ.

The Open state champ is the only true CA state champ. And for the record keepers of state titles this has to be acknowledged.

Here's my fact would McClatchy have won the D1 state title this year if it wasn't for the Open? No way.

No, every team that won their respective divisions are state champions. You can't that away from them. They followed the rules as they were set up, they won the games they needed to win and they were awarded their state titles.

You could certainly make the argument that the Open division winner is the best team in the state, or in St. Mary's case, the best team in the country, but that doesn't diminish what the other teams have accomplished.

And I can guarantee you that there isn't one player on any of the state championship teams that feels they are not state champions, regardless of what some message board posters feel.

 

[RespectBBGame]

Box Out

Now I thing you are to far Open was a Great win for SMS. The girls did great and won the game late in the Game when MD ran out of gas. If can SMS can repeat then you can talk about the only championship that matters. Having kids from all over the SJS section is just like having a AAU team high school. But when I see SMS(Mavericks) in AAU ball they always losing to the Average teams. When a high school team has kids from Fairfield, Sac, Tracy, Lodi and Stockton that's just like a AAU team. They are a great bunch girls that play well together. But I remember someone saying the have 10 D1 players but no one going this year to D1. So what that saying they 10 out 12 will go D1 by the year of 2018 !!!! I would love to see that because on the AAU level most the time teams only send 8 out 10 on the top teams to D1 if they are a good team. So do get me wrong they have Bragging rights right now. To repeat is a hard think everyone knows that. No body repeat in the Open yet do that !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[observer22]

"No, every team that won their respective divisions are state champions. You can't that away from them. They followed the rules as they were set up, they won the games they needed to win and they were awarded their state titles.

You could certainly make the argument that the Open division winner is the best team in the state, or in St. Mary's case, the best team in the country, but that doesn't diminish what the other teams have accomplished.

And I can guarantee you that there isn't one player on any of the state championship teams that feels they are not state champions, regardless of what some message board posters feel."





True, but taking away what are theoretically the top 16 teams in the state for the Open does water down the challenge for the remaining divisions. They know this, as does everyone else, but they still ran the table in their division and beat everyone in front of them. Like winning the NIT. No one is going to give the trophy back.


This post was edited on 3/30 11:17 AM by observer22

 

[Box_out!]

Letssnowboard

I agree your right, but the rules are taking away from the teams/coaches/players/schools that make it into the Open and lose. Like MM, PW,SHC,MC,SI,SMB,SAL. What about them? What should they do? These are all champions and have beaten and would have beaten many of the state champions. Something has to change with the rules or the "Name Titles" for it to really be taken seriously.

SMS coach has won a record 7 state titles (6 divisional & 1 Open), Mitty coach has 6. PW coach has 6, MD coach has 6. While SMS coach and MD coach have been in the Open the past three years the Mitty & PW coach have been winning divisional titles. Another words all of these titles are not equal although in the record books they appear to be.

If SMS & MD would of tanked during there past seasons and remained in there division one could have a possible 10 state titles.

If MM would of tanked there coach/players/school would have 3 state titles. Instead they have 0

The rules were changed for even compitetion but the title names should have been changed as well.

 

[SouthBayHoopFan]

The title names don't need to be changed, the Open system needs to be improved. Make it a Tournament of Champions and everyone will be happy. Well, everyone except the less-deserving teams that have been given an advantage the last three years.

 

[letsski]

Originally posted by Box_out!:

Letssnowboard

I agree your right, but the rules are taking away from the teams/coaches/players/schools that make it into the Open and lose. Like MM, PW,SHC,MC,SI,SMB,SAL. What about them? What should they do? These are all champions and have beaten and would have beaten many of the state champions. Something has to change with the rules or the "Name Titles" for it to really be taken seriously.

SMS coach has won a record 7 state titles (6 divisional & 1 Open), Mitty coach has 6. PW coach has 6, MD coach has 6. While SMS coach and MD coach have been in the Open the past three years the Mitty & PW coach have been winning divisional titles. Another words all of these titles are not equal although in the record books they appear to be.

If SMS & MD would of tanked during there past seasons and remained in there division one could have a possible 10 state titles.

If MM would of tanked there coach/players/school would have 3 state titles. Instead they have 0

The rules were changed for even compitetion but the title names should have been changed as well.

Unless you go to a formula like the NCAA, where there is a playoff system that crowns one state champion only, you will always have an argument of who is the "real" state champion.

Before the Open, there was enrollment based divisions. Does Mitty's 2007 and 2008 D2 teams not deserve to be state champions because they lost to D3 state champion SHC during the regular season?

Before there was enrollment based divisions, teams had the option of moving up in divisions. Do the teams that moved up, or didn't, not deserve to be crowned champions?

Nobody tanked, everyone played per the rules and ended up where they ended up. Per the current format, each and every team, regardless if it is watered down or not, did what they needed to do to earn their title.. You could argue all day long that if team A stayed in their div. they would have won, but the fact is, the powers that be determined placement and team A didn't win.

 

[Box_out!]

Game

Come on your knowledge is better than that! Every top team in the nation is a HS AAU team. Why would you just single out SMS?

MD, N-G, Blackman, ETC all are HS AAU teams! In all sports, boys & girls. Boys BBall Oak Hill. Boys football DeLaSalle.

And every feeder program for the top teams aren't the best. But the parents of the best do want there kids to be coached by the best coach in there area. Wouldn't you? In NorCal SMS coach is the best hs coach (by state champion titles) in CA. It is what it is.

For the record I had MD coach over SMS coach but MD coach lost a 10 point lead in the second half to lose by 7 with the best player in the country facing a young SMS group and couldn't finish. IMO SMS coach is now the clear cut top coach in CA possibly nation. Mind you SMS coach lost a starter with only 3 games left to finish the season. That coaching job was incredible.

 

[bulldogmgc]

Like the Nike TOC and WCJ these other CA teams that won state championships, won "divisional state" championships given the respective teams in the respective brackets. Had the other 15 teams from the CIF Open bracket played in their respective divisions, we most certainly would have witnessed different outcomes. But, likewise, in the Nike TOC or WCJ, teams that play in the platinum or Joe Davidson do NOT get the opportunity to claim victory in the other divisions. As Coach Tom Gonsalves tweeted that it sure would be nice if the other teams from the CIF Open bracket got a shot to play in their respective divisions once they lost. But, I disagree because we would not see that happen in the Nike TOC or WCJ tournaments, either.

Maybe St. Mary's (Stockton) should have just went straight to the CIF Open State Championship game like DLS did for football, so these other teams would have gotten a shot at a state championship, just like Folsom? It is what it is. A chance to be considered the best in the state overall or a chance at a "divisional state" championship. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

[bulldogmgc]

Hint! ...

RespectBBGame = Ballerdreams = SMS Hater!!![/B]

 

[Box_out!]

Box Out

Now I thing you are to far Open was a Great win for SMS. The girls did great and won the game late in the Game when MD ran out of gas. If can SMS can repeat then you can talk about the only championship that matters. Having kids from all over the SJS section is just like having a AAU team high school. But when I see SMS(Mavericks) in AAU ball they always losing to the Average teams. When a high school team has kids from Fairfield, Sac, Tracy, Lodi and Stockton that's just like a AAU team. They are a great bunch girls that play well together. But I remember someone saying the have 10 D1 players but no one going this year to D1. So what that saying they 10 out 12 will go D1 by the year of 2018 !!!! I would love to see that because on the AAU level most the time teams only send 8 out 10 on the top teams to D1 if they are a good team. So do get me wrong they have Bragging rights right now. To repeat is a hard think everyone knows that. No body repeat in the Open yet do that !!!!!!!!!!!!!



Game

I know you have skills better then this, if you are trying to discredit SMS coach. Your argument is SMS coach didn't even have 1 D1 player this year? So that means the SMS coach is the MAN. He won all those games with no D1 senior including the Open and holds the record for most state titles but has to wait till next year and repeat as Open champion to have bragging rights?

You know a lot about bball no question, and you, like me know, SMS will be ranked in all polls #1 and next year will go undefeated, win NIKE TOC, and repeat as Open champ. This is not news to you or me
This post was edited on 3/30 1:35 PM by Box_out!

 

[northbaybbguru]

BOXOUT..

I stand by my statement....MM has gotten hosed...

The 1st year of the open...MM lost to O'dowd in the NCS D3 final by 30? and STILL got pulled up to the open.

Costing the school a shot or even probable D3 state championship.

MM has been the 2nd best team in Norcal ever since.....they will be the 2nd best team in Norcal AGAIN next year. (behind SMS)

that's quite a run.....YET they will probably not have a chance of EVER PLAYING FOR A STATE CHAMPIONSHIP...

Twice in the 4yr open history......the Salesian and SMB loser stayed down in D4...and BOTH times made it to the D4 state title game.

MM loses sections and STILL gets pulled up...they have gotten hosed....you'll never convince me otherwise.


SIERRA CANYON tanks every year in key games and keeps winning state titles....its ridiculous.

 

[Paytc]

northbaybbguru,

You are making a good case. And I agree MM would have most likely won a Division 3 State Championship by now.

But I am not so quick to agree that MM is the automatic second best team in Norcal, because Sacred Heart Cathedral plays SMS the best. And SMS although they are the deepest team they will get teams aiming to take them down and make a name for themselves. But it is fair to say these will be 3 of the top teams next season.


Paytc

This post was edited on 3/30 5:48 PM by Paytc

 

[Nor Cal Scout]

Great points made by all. I am leaning toward the one true state champion but all those schools should be very proud as they ran the table the way the rules were set up. Cardinal Newman may be the next team to get hosed as they made their splash this year so they will be ranked all year next year and if they win D4 they will likely be an open team. Unless they tank a few down the stretch. They will likely play Sierra Canyon

 

[RespectBBGame]

Box_Out

If they win Nike Toc they wont when win the Open next year because of the Jinxes of winning both. Yes they will be # 1 rank Ca. but not Nation until the first 2 weeks of the season. To much politics for them to be rank number 1. Not Discrediting SMS coach he made some adjustments that he usual don't make but should have done it a little bit earlier but I give him credit for the adjustments.


Like I said it's time for some good competition AAU time. These Games are field with Head coaches and a ton of scouts. Last year I seen at one game 35 D1 scouts and 17 was top D1 colleges in the NCAA ranking. Also seen 10 head coaches watching games. That's the type of stage that every girls loves to play on because the competition even ups on the AAU court. I seen a lot these girls get offers and make early commits until signing day. Those are beautiful days seeing these girls smile and know the made it.

 

[Box_out!]

Game

Well it's almost AAU time unofficially it will start in Virginia next month (April 24) at Boo. If your a Baller you'll be there.

You going to be there? The AAU NorCal King Kelly will be there with his girls er SMS girls reping NorCal.

I say almost because the final awards still need to come out State Coach of the Year for SMS coach. You agree with that? If not, who do you think and why over SMS coach?

 

[RespectBBGame]

Boo Williams is the place to be to start the AAU season. There will be tons of coaches looking for that 1 or 2 players that will help their teams right off the bat. Kelly is going to Boo but Nike Last National Championship Team Taurasi will be there too. They will be the team to beat like always when the are fully loaded.


Now about the coach of the year award probably will go to Tom SMS. But I think it should go to a team that a coach had to coach from scratch. Their are a lot coaches out there that coach teams that not as talent then the young ladies SMS have. Coach of the Year Award to me should be a public school award . Coaches at public school have less advantages because they have bounders. This coaches my have 1 or 2 players that can real go but have to train the rest of them. So I would the coach of the year award to Dublin coach for all the work he had to put in because his star player was a soccer player. But that's my opinion. Private School always do the forbidden things by recruiting players everyone knows this but I'm not just talking about SMS. They just do it the best.

 

[fallensoul6]

Guru,
there have only been three seasons of the open division
only once in those three years has the Salesian/SMB loser been left down in DIV

in 2013 Salesian was left down, and they lost to Serra in the state title game

in 2014 both SMB and Salesian remained in the open
SMB won the section
Salesian beat SMB in the Norcal Semis, beat Miramonte in the Norcal Finals and lost to LBP at state

at least get the facts right before stating who got hosed more and less over Miramonte
MM deserved to be in the open the first year, regardless of how bad they lost in the DIII section game to BOD
They were like 27-2 with their only losses being to Windward and BOD;
they were made / missed FT's away from upsetting SMS in that first year of the Open
That doesn't sound like a team that was hosed, they clearly showed that they belonged then and they belong now...

 

[Crazybball]

Sierra Canyon were in the open southern section division and were eliminated as their format has basically 2 open divisions and so their road to get to state in the open is much tougher. As they were eliminated in the section they get to go back to their correct enrollment division. Last year they also got eliminated by about 50 by MD in the open section division and then went back to their enrollment division for state.

This post was edited on 4/5 2:55 AM by Crazybball