Arizona State continues to do well on the recruiting trail with a commitment from 2017 Spencer Torkelson. He plays for Casa Grande HS and NorCal Baseball.
Arizona State gets 2017 standout
- Thread starter Streak One
- Start date
Normally I would agree. Knowing what I know, this has been his dream school for a few years. He did his due diligence on all the other schools he had interest in on the west coast. Conversely, the school had seen him play numerous times and is a perfect fit for their program as a player and teammate.
This kid is one of the few no-brainers and is not a gamble IMO and will take advantage of ASU's new Honors College. He's what a big-leaguer looks like at that age.
This kid is one of the few no-brainers and is not a gamble IMO and will take advantage of ASU's new Honors College. He's what a big-leaguer looks like at that age.
I'm sure this isn't one of those cases, but it seems to me if anyone is gonna get hurt in these super-early scenarios its the kid. Programs walk away from players they don't want anymore (injury, grades, found better talent at the position, player wasn't as good as they thought, etc...). Sometimes (too often) it happens late making it tough on the kid and family. Not to mention the embarrassment.
If you're that good, I don't see the rush and if you're not Superman you are adding risk to the process on the back end.
Just the way I see it.
If you're that good, I don't see the rush and if you're not Superman you are adding risk to the process on the back end.
Just the way I see it.
Early commitments are a concerning trend because colleges don't do the due diligence necessary on players in an effort to be first. Also, players still have important physical and emotional development ahead that could make their initial choice a bad one for multiple reasons.
There are rare cases where it works, but it is far less than the number of early commitments we see today.
There are rare cases where it works, but it is far less than the number of early commitments we see today.
I would also add that I don't think most parents/players do their due diligence either. I think parents and players often get stars in their eyes with the excitement of schools (and especially a big one!) chasing them.
I have no reason to doubt Rob on a specific case, but sometimes I think its a race by the parents so they can brag at the office. I understand this feeling, but its one you should try and resist as this is a very important choice not just for baseball but for the rest of your life.
I have no reason to doubt Rob on a specific case, but sometimes I think its a race by the parents so they can brag at the office. I understand this feeling, but its one you should try and resist as this is a very important choice not just for baseball but for the rest of your life.
TD- I would agree with you. Families need to understand this is not a race with others and each recruiting scenario should be its own separate entity. It's a huge decision that should be well thought out.
The other challenge is the insidious new cottage industry of people taking advantage of families by selling fear and hope in the recruiting business. We have gone to the AZ Fall Classic every year since its inception. It started off as a way for great programs to play against each other. Now you have groups charging exorbitant amounts for players who have no business being there. Running camps attended by number three or volunteer coaches who are paid to attend and taking players who don't have the ability to play at a high level. Families are investing thousands of dollars in these camps and it's just sad to see.
The other challenge is the insidious new cottage industry of people taking advantage of families by selling fear and hope in the recruiting business. We have gone to the AZ Fall Classic every year since its inception. It started off as a way for great programs to play against each other. Now you have groups charging exorbitant amounts for players who have no business being there. Running camps attended by number three or volunteer coaches who are paid to attend and taking players who don't have the ability to play at a high level. Families are investing thousands of dollars in these camps and it's just sad to see.
You are right. Lots of people wasting hard earned $$.
When our older one was 14, he was the ONLY player in a 1,000 player local Pony league playing travel ball for any age level. He was also the only eventual college player at his age a few years later. Today, I am told there are at least a dozen (probably more) for each and every age (8-15) in that town (same hometown as Blake Diggle BTW - but you know that).
Are there suddenly a dozen more college players coming out of that league/town? NO! There actually seem to be less than before.
Parents are wasting their money left and right in hopes of an impossible dream for their son. In most cases, their money is much better spent on math, science and writing tutors.
And yes, there's plenty of 'cottage businesses' waiting to take it all.
When our older one was 14, he was the ONLY player in a 1,000 player local Pony league playing travel ball for any age level. He was also the only eventual college player at his age a few years later. Today, I am told there are at least a dozen (probably more) for each and every age (8-15) in that town (same hometown as Blake Diggle BTW - but you know that).
Are there suddenly a dozen more college players coming out of that league/town? NO! There actually seem to be less than before.
Parents are wasting their money left and right in hopes of an impossible dream for their son. In most cases, their money is much better spent on math, science and writing tutors.
And yes, there's plenty of 'cottage businesses' waiting to take it all.
First of all, I've seen this kid play from LL through HS (so far) and he is absolutely 100% legit. He led the NBL in batting as a freshman. Yes, stats can be cooked, but the kid rakes, especially when the game is on the line. There's no question of waiting to see about physical maturity. He's already big enough, strong enough, and fast enough to play in college. The only thing surprising about ASU taking him is that they didn't insist he quit playing football. He's the primary running back on a weak varsity team and he's getting pounded. Maybe next year..?
As for the "dangers" of being an early commit, people talk about the potential for colleges backing out all the time, and yet I never hear of specific instances. Cal is signing lots of kids early. When is the last time they reneged on a verbal? When is the last time ASU or UCLA or any PAC12 school reneged when grades or injuries were not an issue? I'm asking because I don't know. Maybe it happens, but I have not heard about it.
And keep in mind that college schollys are for one year anyway. There are no guarantees. But a kid who gets into Cal for baseball and doesn't get renewed for his sophomore year is still a Cal student, and that is important.
As for the whole travel industry isn't that a different topic? But I'll say this... if people realized how little the average scholarship is worth at an inexpensive school like ASU they wouldn't bother -- if it was alll about the money. But for many, it is not.
As for what's the advantage? Seems pretty clear. A kid can keep doing everything he can to develop but not worry about spending money and time on the recruiting process. But it really should be the kid's dream school and nothing but.
As for the "dangers" of being an early commit, people talk about the potential for colleges backing out all the time, and yet I never hear of specific instances. Cal is signing lots of kids early. When is the last time they reneged on a verbal? When is the last time ASU or UCLA or any PAC12 school reneged when grades or injuries were not an issue? I'm asking because I don't know. Maybe it happens, but I have not heard about it.
And keep in mind that college schollys are for one year anyway. There are no guarantees. But a kid who gets into Cal for baseball and doesn't get renewed for his sophomore year is still a Cal student, and that is important.
As for the whole travel industry isn't that a different topic? But I'll say this... if people realized how little the average scholarship is worth at an inexpensive school like ASU they wouldn't bother -- if it was alll about the money. But for many, it is not.
As for what's the advantage? Seems pretty clear. A kid can keep doing everything he can to develop but not worry about spending money and time on the recruiting process. But it really should be the kid's dream school and nothing but.
So the advantage in your opinion is "not worry about spending money and time on the recruiting process". I don't buy it. I had a great time on trips to Utah, Cal, and Nevada. I talked, compared notes, and hung out with peers doing the same thing on my trips not costing me or my parents a thing. My son went to Colorado, San Diego, and UCSB visiting and had a similar experience. I think those visits as a rising senior were more valuable than a few more workouts in the cage or weight room. You may "think" you know your dream school at 15 or 16 but a lot can change in a few years, especially if you're a can't miss guy like this kid seems to be. IMO there is no need to hurry the process until something changes within the system and there is a tangible benefit.
Wine_Guy,
I have never seen him play but knew he had to be good because of the ASU connection. The thing is he will likely be better next year. No matter how this gets cut, a top program is going to want top talent and an early verbal really only helps the school/coaching staff.
In terms of the "dangers" they happen. Check out UNLV when they changed coaching staffs a couple of years ago. Not only did they withdraw nearly every verbal. They even went after the NLI guys and told them they would never play for UNLV but the scholarship would be honored for one year. While no one knows with the new staff, ASU has a reputation of over-recruiting. Many have ended up at JC's or cut.
When we get down to this, if someone really wants to play baseball in college, having the option of being a "student" only after one year is one of the reasons so many players transfer following their freshman year. One poster on the HSBBW reports that upwards of 50% of the D1 players transfer after their first or second year. It isn't possible to quantify how that relates to early verbal offers. To me, though, it does show players are probably not using as much or the right type of due diligence in the process. One issue, for instance, is the fact a 2017 has absolutely no idea who will be his teammates when he steps on the field as a college freshman. Nearly every member of the current roster will likely be gone by then, as will some of the coaching staff. How does anyone determine if the program is a solid "fit" without knowing who will be their coach and who will be the bulk of their teammates?
I have never seen him play but knew he had to be good because of the ASU connection. The thing is he will likely be better next year. No matter how this gets cut, a top program is going to want top talent and an early verbal really only helps the school/coaching staff.
In terms of the "dangers" they happen. Check out UNLV when they changed coaching staffs a couple of years ago. Not only did they withdraw nearly every verbal. They even went after the NLI guys and told them they would never play for UNLV but the scholarship would be honored for one year. While no one knows with the new staff, ASU has a reputation of over-recruiting. Many have ended up at JC's or cut.
When we get down to this, if someone really wants to play baseball in college, having the option of being a "student" only after one year is one of the reasons so many players transfer following their freshman year. One poster on the HSBBW reports that upwards of 50% of the D1 players transfer after their first or second year. It isn't possible to quantify how that relates to early verbal offers. To me, though, it does show players are probably not using as much or the right type of due diligence in the process. One issue, for instance, is the fact a 2017 has absolutely no idea who will be his teammates when he steps on the field as a college freshman. Nearly every member of the current roster will likely be gone by then, as will some of the coaching staff. How does anyone determine if the program is a solid "fit" without knowing who will be their coach and who will be the bulk of their teammates?
MrSplitty, I hear you. Taking a college tour is a great experience for sure. But that's a different thing than playing for a team like Nor Cal and going to several tournaments in AZ, SoCal, FL, etc, per year. Families can and do run up tens of thousands of dollars easily trying to get recruited.
TU, I would think that programs and coaches would lose their credibility pretty quickly when that kind of info gets around.
I'm not saying that early commits are right for all players. I'm just saying they are not necessarily wrong for all players. They are just part of the landscape right now and it makes sense to consider that when making choices. If the right program offers you money, and you have reason to trust them, in some cases it may be best to take it. The money might not be on the table later on.
LOL -- I could not remember my old login here so I created a new one as Wine Guy, but somehow logged in as Quaffer in the process. Anyway, we are one and the same.
This post was edited on 10/23 4:36 PM by Quaffer
TU, I would think that programs and coaches would lose their credibility pretty quickly when that kind of info gets around.
I'm not saying that early commits are right for all players. I'm just saying they are not necessarily wrong for all players. They are just part of the landscape right now and it makes sense to consider that when making choices. If the right program offers you money, and you have reason to trust them, in some cases it may be best to take it. The money might not be on the table later on.
LOL -- I could not remember my old login here so I created a new one as Wine Guy, but somehow logged in as Quaffer in the process. Anyway, we are one and the same.
This post was edited on 10/23 4:36 PM by Quaffer
Splitty- You throw out these flippant comments from less than zero background on this situation. This is an outstanding family and a kid that is incredibly hard-working, incredibly talented, a great teammate, and as far from ego as there is. He's been talking about this school for years. He did his due diligence. He's an absolute star who has the look of a future big-leaguer. In this situation it's the perfect fit.
You really should step back and think about some of the things you say because you have some good knowledge but lose me and others when you just spout off.
You really should step back and think about some of the things you say because you have some good knowledge but lose me and others when you just spout off.
Quaffer, actually I don't think they lose credibility in any meaningful way. UNLV was in a regional this year and probably would have gone further if their #1(also a #1 draft pick) did not have TJ just as the season ended before the regional.
My view is players and parents don't believe it will happen to them, until it happens to them. Especially in CA, there are far more really good players every year than slots open in D1 programs.
And, it is not a one way street. I know of players who verbal and continue to be involved in the recruiting process and coaching staffs which continue to recruit players they know have a verbal. One recent Northern CA player gave a verbal to a Big West school and 2 weeks later was on campus visiting another school. When a Pac 12 school entered the process, he then gave them a verbal and eventually signed an NLI. He then left them high a dry when he signed on the very last day possible following the MLB draft, when it was too late for the Pac12 to replace that scholarship.
Tu2004- I happen to know the new coaches very very well. These guys are incredibly solid and the antithesis of the old regime (who were good friends) regarding recruiting. Here's one thing I know- the staff is very tight and they aren't going anywhere for a long time. More importantly, the student-athlete loves the school, it's programs, and the area.
Here's the other part- he and Aldrete (2016 recruit) will actually be able to help bring in other good players in the recruiting process because guys will want to play with them. Finally, that HSBBW 50% number is not even close. Half the people on there are self-appointed experts who know nothing.
Here's the other part- he and Aldrete (2016 recruit) will actually be able to help bring in other good players in the recruiting process because guys will want to play with them. Finally, that HSBBW 50% number is not even close. Half the people on there are self-appointed experts who know nothing.
I don't question any of that NCSF. On the other hand, wouldn't ASU want each of these players during or at the end of their junior year just as much, if not more than they want them now, and wouldn't each be able to have far better information on the program and team at that point to confirm the impressions they had as HS freshman and sophomores?
When we look underneath all of this, there is an AD at ASU who says they will be the #1 program in the nation. This coaching staff has to achieve or even exceed those lofty goals. If they don't, they will be replaced, no matter how hard they work and how ethical they are in the recruiting process. What they did at Indiana certainly suggests they should succeed, but will they succeed at the levels the AD has publicly stated in a Pac12 which is seems to be stronger/more competitive every year at least in the top 6-7 programs? Stated differently, if ASU does not reach a Super Regional in 2 of the next 3 years, and host at least one, does that meet the expectations of the AD? From what I read, it would not.
When we look underneath all of this, there is an AD at ASU who says they will be the #1 program in the nation. This coaching staff has to achieve or even exceed those lofty goals. If they don't, they will be replaced, no matter how hard they work and how ethical they are in the recruiting process. What they did at Indiana certainly suggests they should succeed, but will they succeed at the levels the AD has publicly stated in a Pac12 which is seems to be stronger/more competitive every year at least in the top 6-7 programs? Stated differently, if ASU does not reach a Super Regional in 2 of the next 3 years, and host at least one, does that meet the expectations of the AD? From what I read, it would not.
Tu2004- regarding the kid who jumped around- I have a huge problem with that. Regarding signing a pro contract on the last day? I have zero problem with that at all, especially since the time frame has been moved up. The top schools know those things happen and they plan accordingly. The real challenge is when they anticipate a guy leaving and he doesn't and they now have spent more than they have.
Bottom line- Do you think that kid should not decide to turn pro just because the school wants him to play for them? Seems a little much.
This post was edited on 10/23 5:12 PM by NCSF
Bottom line- Do you think that kid should not decide to turn pro just because the school wants him to play for them? Seems a little much.
This post was edited on 10/23 5:12 PM by NCSF
tu2004- good points re the coaches and ASU. That's why I really like your replies. That said, I have some pretty good insight on that situation, more than others. Just spent three weeks in Phoenix and visited the school about five times. These guys will be there a long, long time and be very successful. Tracy Smith is a special coach and his staff is impressive.
FYI- I hate this whole new recruiting timeline
that said, it's not changing and if those are the rules, the top top players are better off going to their choice as soon as they know and can be pro-active in helping with their recruiting class. Good players want to play with good players.
that said, it's not changing and if those are the rules, the top top players are better off going to their choice as soon as they know and can be pro-active in helping with their recruiting class. Good players want to play with good players.
I had no issue with the kid signing on the last day(before the signing date was moved to July) since he left the program which recruited him knowing he had a verbal in place. To me, it was a classic example involving most of the issues with early verbals and baseball recruiting.
Well - its certainly been a while since this board heated up like this! Good ole days!
WineGuy/Quaffer - I agree with a lot of what you say. But it is certainly true that programs walk away from players every year after an early verbal. I've known a few and no, I'm not gonna name names.
Sometimes there's an excuse, sometimes there's a coaching change (e.g. UNLV example, but that one is NOT unique by any means).
A program I follow (D1) had a coaching change a year ago. They slogged through last year with the new coach, did better than before, but it was clear that 'upgrades' were needed. Wanna guess how many new players are on campus this Fall? 26. Yup, 26 out of 35 roster spots. Read that again - 26 of 35 roster spots are NEW players! What happened to the rest of the team? Guess.
Wanna guess next where this coach was the head recruiter before landing this job - just 1.5 years ago? Yup - Indiana - working for the same guy now at ASU. Leopards don't change their spots - do you think? Got 'em to the CWS though.
Is it hurting his new school? Don't think so. The AD recently upped the funding for the Program and the coach is hailed at his new university as a program-saver and their recruiting is markedly improved for the coming years - yup, stock full of 'super-early' commitments from a wider radius of talent then ever before.
This dam* thing is cut throat and anyone who underestimates it is ignoring the facts. This player in this thread is apparently so special it won't matter anyways. I genuinely hope that is true. But for the other 95% (RB says 90% - thats fine), super early commitments even with dream school are putting way more risk on player than program.
PS - RB, you are one of my very best baseball friends, but I'm skeptical that this ASU staff stays together for a very long time. Head coach? Maybe, probably. But if the assistants are as good as you believe, they will be in demand. That was already demonstrated at IU.
This post was edited on 10/24 7:18 AM by atcshrk
WineGuy/Quaffer - I agree with a lot of what you say. But it is certainly true that programs walk away from players every year after an early verbal. I've known a few and no, I'm not gonna name names.
Sometimes there's an excuse, sometimes there's a coaching change (e.g. UNLV example, but that one is NOT unique by any means).
A program I follow (D1) had a coaching change a year ago. They slogged through last year with the new coach, did better than before, but it was clear that 'upgrades' were needed. Wanna guess how many new players are on campus this Fall? 26. Yup, 26 out of 35 roster spots. Read that again - 26 of 35 roster spots are NEW players! What happened to the rest of the team? Guess.
Wanna guess next where this coach was the head recruiter before landing this job - just 1.5 years ago? Yup - Indiana - working for the same guy now at ASU. Leopards don't change their spots - do you think? Got 'em to the CWS though.
Is it hurting his new school? Don't think so. The AD recently upped the funding for the Program and the coach is hailed at his new university as a program-saver and their recruiting is markedly improved for the coming years - yup, stock full of 'super-early' commitments from a wider radius of talent then ever before.
This dam* thing is cut throat and anyone who underestimates it is ignoring the facts. This player in this thread is apparently so special it won't matter anyways. I genuinely hope that is true. But for the other 95% (RB says 90% - thats fine), super early commitments even with dream school are putting way more risk on player than program.
PS - RB, you are one of my very best baseball friends, but I'm skeptical that this ASU staff stays together for a very long time. Head coach? Maybe, probably. But if the assistants are as good as you believe, they will be in demand. That was already demonstrated at IU.
This post was edited on 10/24 7:18 AM by atcshrk
Ponzi scheme supported by some travel coaches and many college coaches. High School senior wants to play in college. He is a pretty good player, possibly good enough to make somebodys team at some point if his measurable skill level improves. Throws 84-86. Not polished. Good kid. Naive family. What should they do? (Honest answer: You are not going to a D1 school. They have all their money committed. They are looking at juniors and sophomores now. Get better, then it might be a reality.) Well, play on my "Elite, Developmental Scout team. We play a fall schedule that will allow you to showcase your talents in front of all these colleges. Check our website and look at all the commits we have." Family writes check. Kids goes to a couple of practices a week, takes a little BP, throws a pen, and meets up with team on weekend. Throws his inning, runs some poles, plays with his stretching cords for an hour while designated coach for the weekend texts and sets fantasy team for the next day on his phone. College assistant leaves early to go to Starbucks. Since he throws 84, no college cares. But travel coach has cashed the check that was written for exposure, so he talks with a few of the colleges coaches and pushes the kid on the school so the family "sees him working for us." College coach shrugs and says, "OK, have him come up to camp." Family feels they still have a chance and signs up for numerous on campus camps. Travel coach breathes a sigh of relief because he knows this kid only throws 84 and has no chance at a school that has no money left and looks for kids that are 88-90 like everyone else. But he did his job. At camp the kid throws to 6 batters and tops out at 84. Gets 5 of 6 guys out, coach says they will "keep an eye on you in the spring" or "We might have you come up next year in fall and see if you can make our team." College coach did his job. Made a few bucks. Made a few vague promises and the family goes home and "commits." Norcalpreps writes an article about the latest commitment. Kid thinks he has struck gold. He is a committed athlete. Kid still throws 84. Parents get to tell other parents and colleagues at work that their son "committed" to a school and all their dollars spent on travel teams is now justified. This is the high water mark. I "committed." High school, travel coach, various prep outlets tweet and retweet the commitment. 15 minutes of fame. Season starts. Kid takes mound as an apparently confident future college player. Unfortunately, there are 4 other pitchers on the team that are just better than him. He can't hold runners, can't field his position. Doesn't really know how to pitch, does not have command and has a horrible inning in a preseason tournament game. HS coach loses confidence. Kid falls down the ladder on the staff. Other teams extra motivated because they just scored 5 off a "committed player." Player has a uneventful senior year. Goes back to play for travel coach over summer. Pays thousands to play on "Summer collegiate team." Travel coach blasts HS coach for using the kid wrong. Kid packs bags for college. Throws 3 innings in the fall and is cut. Comes home and goes to JC. Stills throws 84.
Lies everywhere. Honesty nowhere. College assistant coaches don't even talk with other members of their own staff about recruits because they are all angling for a better job and want to keep channels open with other talented underclassmen. High school ball means nothing. JC ball suffers. Early commitments are not the end of pressure as every article on this website proclaims, but rather the beginning of the work. Because all those early commits to St. Mary's and UCLA and USC and wherever are going to need to get better to even play at those schools. You are a walk on, or assured of a roster spot, or even a 25% guy, you better get better or your stay at said school will be one year.
It has become a Ponzi scheme. When a kid/family needs to hear the truth...you need to get better...you aren't even assured of a starting spot on your HS team, you need to run faster, hit the ball harder and farther, and throw harder and then you can start thinking about college. Better set your sites a little lower and try and be a better player, or better yet, lets have a good season and win some games and learn how to play the game, be a good teammate, then try and see what comes next. Not good enough anymore. The belief is that everyone that invests in baseball is going to play in college and be a commit and get their article on this site. The showcase world has built up that dream on the cancelled checks of lots of people and will continue to do so until colleges are forced to keep kids around rather than cut them. But in defense of the colleges, they probably need to bring in 50 guys to find 35 tough enough to play because the kids coming out of HS are under prepared because all they do is take a little BP and go to showcases and camps and throw to 6 hitters. But there are some pretty impressive websites that proclaim what all these training outfits can do.
Throw 90, you will be recruited. (Maybe a little less if you are left handed.)
Run a decent 60 time
Throw the ball consistently to 2B in 2.1 for a catcher.
Have a strong arm and be able to play SS for an infielder.
Mash the ball. Balls fly out of park in BP all the time. Can drive the ball to opposite field.
Have good size.
If that is not you, get better and then think about D1. Lower your sights. D2, D3, or a JC.
It really comes down to how much you love the game. How much do you want to play. Success takes time unless you meet the physical criteria after your sophomore/junior year. If you love it, you grind it out, take a longer path.
But nobody sells that. They sell, showcases, come to camp, we'll watch you, we might have a roster spot, we'll give you the fall.
It is rapidly becoming a joke. College coaches know it, but they often have no recruiting budget and need to attend showcases. Plus the assistants make zero money and $500 for showing up with a clipboard and stopwatch is necessary to pay the rent. And so are all those camps. Showcase guys know it, but they have found a way to make a living in baseball without having to coach and worry about wins and losses, and they have bills to pay. No one is really hurt. The top kids still get seen and recruited, albeit during their sophomore year. But everyone else is chasing the dream and come with checkbooks in hand. Its like buying that magic weight loss pill at 2 in the morning from the infomercial. People watch and buy. Baseball is now up there with the 6 pack abs in 3 weeks, get the dent out of your car with this paint, and buy the George Foreman grill crowd. Awesome.
This post was edited on 10/25 6:56 AM by tired of this
Lies everywhere. Honesty nowhere. College assistant coaches don't even talk with other members of their own staff about recruits because they are all angling for a better job and want to keep channels open with other talented underclassmen. High school ball means nothing. JC ball suffers. Early commitments are not the end of pressure as every article on this website proclaims, but rather the beginning of the work. Because all those early commits to St. Mary's and UCLA and USC and wherever are going to need to get better to even play at those schools. You are a walk on, or assured of a roster spot, or even a 25% guy, you better get better or your stay at said school will be one year.
It has become a Ponzi scheme. When a kid/family needs to hear the truth...you need to get better...you aren't even assured of a starting spot on your HS team, you need to run faster, hit the ball harder and farther, and throw harder and then you can start thinking about college. Better set your sites a little lower and try and be a better player, or better yet, lets have a good season and win some games and learn how to play the game, be a good teammate, then try and see what comes next. Not good enough anymore. The belief is that everyone that invests in baseball is going to play in college and be a commit and get their article on this site. The showcase world has built up that dream on the cancelled checks of lots of people and will continue to do so until colleges are forced to keep kids around rather than cut them. But in defense of the colleges, they probably need to bring in 50 guys to find 35 tough enough to play because the kids coming out of HS are under prepared because all they do is take a little BP and go to showcases and camps and throw to 6 hitters. But there are some pretty impressive websites that proclaim what all these training outfits can do.
Throw 90, you will be recruited. (Maybe a little less if you are left handed.)
Run a decent 60 time
Throw the ball consistently to 2B in 2.1 for a catcher.
Have a strong arm and be able to play SS for an infielder.
Mash the ball. Balls fly out of park in BP all the time. Can drive the ball to opposite field.
Have good size.
If that is not you, get better and then think about D1. Lower your sights. D2, D3, or a JC.
It really comes down to how much you love the game. How much do you want to play. Success takes time unless you meet the physical criteria after your sophomore/junior year. If you love it, you grind it out, take a longer path.
But nobody sells that. They sell, showcases, come to camp, we'll watch you, we might have a roster spot, we'll give you the fall.
It is rapidly becoming a joke. College coaches know it, but they often have no recruiting budget and need to attend showcases. Plus the assistants make zero money and $500 for showing up with a clipboard and stopwatch is necessary to pay the rent. And so are all those camps. Showcase guys know it, but they have found a way to make a living in baseball without having to coach and worry about wins and losses, and they have bills to pay. No one is really hurt. The top kids still get seen and recruited, albeit during their sophomore year. But everyone else is chasing the dream and come with checkbooks in hand. Its like buying that magic weight loss pill at 2 in the morning from the infomercial. People watch and buy. Baseball is now up there with the 6 pack abs in 3 weeks, get the dent out of your car with this paint, and buy the George Foreman grill crowd. Awesome.
This post was edited on 10/25 6:56 AM by tired of this
Nice rant! I mean that. You seem a bit jaded and/or angry but you make very good points.
So what's the answer? Studs like Spenny who play on NorCal will get their schollys, if not when they're sophs then later on.
But what are you suggesting for the grinder you talk about, the one who loves the game but maybe doesn't top 6' hit balls over the wall routinely? You say to lower his sights to D2 and D3, and that makes perfect sense, but you still have to get seen. Aren't those schools fishing from the same well as the D1's, IE Headfirst camps, Stanford camp, PG showcases and tournaments?
So what's the answer? Studs like Spenny who play on NorCal will get their schollys, if not when they're sophs then later on.
But what are you suggesting for the grinder you talk about, the one who loves the game but maybe doesn't top 6' hit balls over the wall routinely? You say to lower his sights to D2 and D3, and that makes perfect sense, but you still have to get seen. Aren't those schools fishing from the same well as the D1's, IE Headfirst camps, Stanford camp, PG showcases and tournaments?
Lots of broken things. Not sure of all the answers. Parent Education should take place somewhere early on because families get too far down the road before they really figure stuff out. There should be some form of Coach Credentialing and Certification to get some of the bandits out of business. A college commitment is the beginning of the pressure to get better, not the destination. Players need to have getting better be their top priority rather than where they are playing in college.There needs to be understood standards that must be met to play college ball. (See link below, which I like.) What skills are schools looking for? For most, they would be better off searching a JC to extend their career for a couple of years then start the recruiting calendar over again. Demand that coaches are honest when you are talking to them. Do I throw hard enough? What do you think of my arm strength? How about the pop in my bat? Demand honesty. The camp route is a good route for the D3 school that has no recruiting budget. Reach out to them and go visit. The D2 route in California is pretty much a JC pool of talent. Check the rosters online. Most are JC transfers. PG has pretty much taken over the landscape, but even they still look the other way when they smell cash. But they certainly can cycle the best of the best through their programs. I would love to see great off season developmental programs emerge rather than tourneys every weekend. If the CIF won't let the high schools work in the off season, then an off season, trusted, quality, developmental program needs to emerge for the serious player...then take that group and make them better. Getting better is the ticket, not getting recruited. Honesty and patience. The academic application process rarely meshes with the athletic readiness. That is why all the paranoia exists. To summarize...Parent Education. Honesty. Getting better is the only way you will impress anyone, so get better. (Development) Camps for D3 at the school site. D2 mostly JC tranfsers. Be careful. Have some standards for people that want to coach kids. Make colleges keep a kid longer than half a school year.
What colleges look for.
What colleges look for.
This is a great thread. Very insightful posts from different perspectives on a very real issue.
Regarding the reporting of commitments, news is news. It is part of the high school news cycle more than ever before. There is a difference in reporting the news of a commitment and writing a PR piece for a player. I hope we do the former in our coverage.
Regarding the reporting of commitments, news is news. It is part of the high school news cycle more than ever before. There is a difference in reporting the news of a commitment and writing a PR piece for a player. I hope we do the former in our coverage.
While this is certainly not your fault Doug, it is a sign of the times....The so called "High School News Cycle." is just ridiculous in my opinion. For a 4 star football or basketball player (boys or girls) or maybe a volleyball player and I am not sure what other sports....the commitment is a real milestone. All the work has just paid for 4 years of college. A tremendous and financially stunning accomplishment. But for a baseball player, it may have paid for 25% (or less) of ONE year of college with zero assurances for year #2. In fact, year #2 may be nothing or a reduction or being cut. The committed athlete may not even make the roster for the spring after just a fall in college. 75% of the frosh play less than 25% of the innings for a division one team. That is published data. So lauding the commitment, that is shaky to begin with, really feeds this problem. The showcase or travel ball promoter listing the commitment on their website is also misleading. For the REAL commitments...the ones that are comparable in accomplishment to the top football or basketball players...those type of players did not need any organization to promote them, yet many (not all) of these outfits claim that player as if he could not walk and chew gum before they came to them...all to sell the next family on their event or team. That is why I think parent education and total honesty from these organizations is imperative. But this is America and we believe in free enterprise and that is fine and the public needs to make decisions on every purchase, so it is on the parents...so we need parent education and honesty laws like those that have evolved with car salesmen. We need an accessible site for an explanation of what that commitment really means and how to guide families, not increase the frenzy and pressure. Colleges are to blame too. All of us need to share the blame for the reality we have all contributed to. The commitment game is similar to this Seinfeld clip about rental car reservations. And reading about a kid that hasn't really taken an official visit, not had an official offer worth mentioning does not help. Have you had an official visit? What offers have you received and how much is the school offering you? What other schools have made you offers? What did the coach say about your chances of coming in and playing right away? Answer those questions correctly and you get an article, otherwise, sorry, can't help you. Better yet, write the article after the NLI signing day, when the player now has a binding agreement for one year. Write articles about how the kid wants to get better and how he is going to do that. Or about a multi sport athlete and their accomplishments or someone coming back from an injury. Or a great player who juggles some adversity at home and still earns top grades and helps his team win. All commitments are not the same. Aaron Gordon committing to Arizona to play basketball is not in the same universe as some right handed pitcher that commits to a WCC school and then ends up being unable to even make an all league team at his high school. Again, not your fault. We all need to share the blame for what is going on in baseball right now. Anyway...check out this clip and chuckle a bit.
Here is a recent example of how the public is being duped by some (not all promoters.)
Bay Area team of decent HS juniors and seniors goes down to SoCal to play a top level JC for the weekend. Also included in the weekend is a tour of a couple of local D1 schools and meetings with their recruiting coordinator. During the game...which the promoter had phoned a friend who lived down in the area to help coach so he would not have to make the trip down basically sits in the dugout and makes a few substitutions as necessary. The Bay Area team gets one hit over 18 innings against a top JC team whose pitchers are only throwing fastballs and changeups. Clearly these boys need practice more than they need exposure. Same JC team plays a local D1 program a few weeks later and they get 3 hits over 15 innings and give up 20 runs. So, the gap between a top JC and a top 25 D1 school is just as big as the gap between the HS kids and the JC kids. Yet these HS kids are being advised to send videos and write letters to the top D1 schools to help them get recruited.
To tie it all together. The JC coach talks with the D1 recruiting coordinator and the D1 guys says that he does not even return emails nor look at videos that are unsolicited. They know who they want to recruit to stay a top team. Those players are well known and they don't need any help finding them...the ones actually good enough to help a top team win. They have a staffer email anyone that sends a video or email and invite them to camp. The Ponzi scam cycle starts anew.
That is the source of my frustration. The HS kid and their family think the camp invite keeps their hope alive When in reality it does not. The HS kid thinks the fall team that goes down south to play will get them exposure when in reality it just confirms the giant gap between the senior in HS and the top JC talent and also the top D1 talent. These people should focus on getting better, not getting exposure. Getting better is the key. Resetting the recruiting calendar is the key. Being realistic and honest is the key.
This post was edited on 10/26 9:24 AM by tired of this
"Holding" the reservation is the hard part
Here is a recent example of how the public is being duped by some (not all promoters.)
Bay Area team of decent HS juniors and seniors goes down to SoCal to play a top level JC for the weekend. Also included in the weekend is a tour of a couple of local D1 schools and meetings with their recruiting coordinator. During the game...which the promoter had phoned a friend who lived down in the area to help coach so he would not have to make the trip down basically sits in the dugout and makes a few substitutions as necessary. The Bay Area team gets one hit over 18 innings against a top JC team whose pitchers are only throwing fastballs and changeups. Clearly these boys need practice more than they need exposure. Same JC team plays a local D1 program a few weeks later and they get 3 hits over 15 innings and give up 20 runs. So, the gap between a top JC and a top 25 D1 school is just as big as the gap between the HS kids and the JC kids. Yet these HS kids are being advised to send videos and write letters to the top D1 schools to help them get recruited.
To tie it all together. The JC coach talks with the D1 recruiting coordinator and the D1 guys says that he does not even return emails nor look at videos that are unsolicited. They know who they want to recruit to stay a top team. Those players are well known and they don't need any help finding them...the ones actually good enough to help a top team win. They have a staffer email anyone that sends a video or email and invite them to camp. The Ponzi scam cycle starts anew.
That is the source of my frustration. The HS kid and their family think the camp invite keeps their hope alive When in reality it does not. The HS kid thinks the fall team that goes down south to play will get them exposure when in reality it just confirms the giant gap between the senior in HS and the top JC talent and also the top D1 talent. These people should focus on getting better, not getting exposure. Getting better is the key. Resetting the recruiting calendar is the key. Being realistic and honest is the key.
This post was edited on 10/26 9:24 AM by tired of this
"Holding" the reservation is the hard part
Great clip. Can't go wrong with Jerry Seinfeld.
I agree the focus should be on improving and not exposure, no matter the sport. Even a "blue chip recruit" has big steps to make once they step on a college campus to be a consistent producer. Like baseball, football and basketball churn players out of the program if they can't keep up.
I agree the focus should be on improving and not exposure, no matter the sport. Even a "blue chip recruit" has big steps to make once they step on a college campus to be a consistent producer. Like baseball, football and basketball churn players out of the program if they can't keep up.
Tgabc- Since you mentioned me, you obviously have no clue on how I think about 80-90% of those events and have never spoke to me about it. If you did, you would know my thoughts are more aligned with Tired of this. Most of these are garbage and we tell our players that. We attend events that are quality and use those more as a measuring stick to find out where our guys stack up. It always gives them the impetus to work harder.
It's not always about exposure! We believe more about development, NEVER promise anything, and are very very honest where our players fit in. You can find my e Mail on our site and I will be happy to send you blogs I have published in the last couple years.
This post was edited on 10/29 12:21 PM by NCSF
It's not always about exposure! We believe more about development, NEVER promise anything, and are very very honest where our players fit in. You can find my e Mail on our site and I will be happy to send you blogs I have published in the last couple years.
This post was edited on 10/29 12:21 PM by NCSF
Well at least you can spell my name right. It's Raich meathead and if you would like to talk sometime here is my # 408-204-8771. If you think exposure is why our program is around then your quite mistaken. I also feel the same as tired of this and I have numerous respect for NCSF. So whenever you want to chat I'm here because your obviously not very well informed.
Erick: That was one of the best responses ever to that guy who posted for his first time. Of course he'll never call you as none of "them" ever do.
Good luck at DeAnza College. That program went from almost being absorbed to having you and your staff bring your respective coaching talents to the program.
Good luck at DeAnza College. That program went from almost being absorbed to having you and your staff bring your respective coaching talents to the program.
NCSF Been out chasing the white ball for a couple weeks, so I'm catching up. This is where we get sideways. I did say, "What's the upside (other than ego) to an early commitment like this? " I didn't say the kid, the family, the coach, the friends, the mentor...or you had an ego. Even though I know all of you do and that's not necessarily a negative, just a fact of life. Anybody that's been through or is familiar at all with this knows it plays a part in the process. The question in the statement that you ignore is, what's the upside?
How is my opinion "spouting off" when I read atcshrek saying "I have no reason to doubt Rob on a specific case, but sometimes I think its a race by the parents so they can brag at the office. I understand this feeling, but its one you should try and resist as this is a very important choice not just for baseball but for the rest of your life." We are pretty much "spouting off" the same message.
You have to admit TGABC's photo is funny, though in bad taste in some people's opinion. Why do you treat that post cordially and my question insultingly?
This post was edited on 11/5 11:37 AM by mrsplitty
How is my opinion "spouting off" when I read atcshrek saying "I have no reason to doubt Rob on a specific case, but sometimes I think its a race by the parents so they can brag at the office. I understand this feeling, but its one you should try and resist as this is a very important choice not just for baseball but for the rest of your life." We are pretty much "spouting off" the same message.
You have to admit TGABC's photo is funny, though in bad taste in some people's opinion. Why do you treat that post cordially and my question insultingly?
This post was edited on 11/5 11:37 AM by mrsplitty
Splitty- That's a good point. I apologize. That said, I guess I expect more out of you because you are an intelligent guy and have positive things to offer. The other poster obviously has no clue and maybe trying to educate him? There are some bad guys out there and I want to change the landscape more than you know!
NCSF, You're apology is not only not accepted but totally unnecessary. I know who I am and what I can be at times, but most the time it's all in fun and meant to be provocative in the sense that it draws response. I still haven't heard a solid reason for an early (3 year) commitment that has much validity in my mind.
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