CA may ban youth football

[Lil49erCoach]

http://ktla.com/2018/02/08/californ...organized-tackle-football-before-high-school/

3 other states, Illinois, New York, and Maryland, are on the way to do that as well.

http://footballscoop.com/news/number-states-moving-ban-tackle-football-youth-level/

 

[SPortela24]

Awful but this could also level the playing field down. Youre going to start seeing the WCAL and Pac-5 school recruiting out of state, at track meets and basketball tournaments rather than local Pop Warner Games.

 

[Bubba3000]

Awful but this could also level the playing field down. Youre going to start seeing the WCAL and Pac-5 school recruiting out of state, at track meets and basketball tournaments rather than local Pop Warner Games.

Although disappointed, I would be far less disappointed if kids were allowed to begin playing tackle football in seventh and eighth grade.

Funny how in the story the author used absolute freaks of nature to attempt to make his point in favor of flag football

 

[SpeedCity51]

Awful but this could also level the playing field down. Youre going to start seeing the WCAL and Pac-5 school recruiting out of state, at track meets and basketball tournaments rather than local Pop Warner Games.

Nah, flag football will just get a lot more popular.

 

[Bubba3000]

Nah, flag football will just get a lot more popular.

Flag football is a whole different game

 

[colhenrylives]

Awful but this could also level the playing field down. Youre going to start seeing the WCAL and Pac-5 school recruiting out of state, at track meets and basketball tournaments rather than local Pop Warner Games.

Did you mean the WAC?

 

[SpeedCity51]

Flag football is a whole different game

I am aware.

 

[Bkelly5]

While there is some terrific coaching at the youth level, I’ve seen enough awful coaching to feel that some kind of legislative oversight had to happen.

 

[colhenrylives]

While there is some terrific coaching at the youth level, I’ve seen enough awful coaching to feel that some kind of legislative oversight had to happen.

I cannot forget what I witnessed at a Pop Warner game in Orange County a decade ago. Running backs ramming head-first into the defense; blindside wipe-out blocks bordering on pure mayhem; egregious hits on a QB; screaming coaches; weak officials. At one point, a kid was knocked out cold. As he lay unmoving on the turf, the P.A. guy chortled and noted, "Well, looks like No.15 got his bell rung." Yes, he did get his bell rung. He also received a concussion of one grade of severity or another. There was no doctor in attendance. Finally, the player was helped to his feet and he wobbled over to the sidelines. The game went on. No muss, no fuss. Tragedy averted. Presumably. Something has to change.

 

[ararar]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp...to-lawmakers-trying-1518211899-htmlstory.html

 

[Bubba3000]

I cannot forget what I witnessed at a Pop Warner game in Orange County a decade ago. Running backs ramming head-first into the defense; blindside wipe-out blocks bordering on pure mayhem; egregious hits on a QB; screaming coaches; weak officials. At one point, a kid was knocked out cold. As he lay unmoving on the turf, the P.A. guy chortled and noted, "Well, looks like No.15 got his bell rung." Yes, he did get his bell rung. He also received a concussion of one grade of severity or another. There was no doctor in attendance. Finally, the player was helped to his feet and he wobbled over to the sidelines. The game went on. No muss, no fuss. Tragedy averted. Presumably. Something has to change.

I have been around youth football for decades and have never witnessed anything that’s anywhere near as severe as what you describe. I’m not saying you’re lying only that what you describe is very rare.

Many years ago I witnessed hitting drills like bull in the ring at the youth level and that’s ridiculous. Thankfully I haven’t seen that drill at the youth or even high school levels in a very long time. IMO 98% of youth coaches have their heads screwed on straight and really care about the kids they coach and the safety of those kids.

 

[observer22]

The Bears coaches did things right, for the most part.

 

[Streak One]

People can decide for themselves without legislation. It is about education and choosing the best route for your child (pop warner, flag football as a kid, no football at all).

 

[1315]

There are reasons legislation does not let kids (nor their parents) decide whether to smoke or not, wear a seatbelt, or helmets while riding a motorcycle, bicycle or skateboard.

I did witness an (out of shape) Dad making pee wees do negative reinforcement up downs. That was enough for me to delay tackle until HS for .1 and 8th for .2 They then were trained by knowledgeable coaches in a very good program. By soph year, starters and some here know their contributions. One got concussions from illegal hits in the premiere EB scrimmage and ASG. When you see your kid do the “wobbly walk,” after extensive training and knowledge of tackling, you pay attention to the science.

Now, there’ll be responses here saying that diminished cognitive behavior has not been proven through the Boston or Wisconsin long term studies. But it’s clear the youth brain IS significantly more at risk in any contact sport. And yes, stated here on ncp, other sports have led to two concussions in our house, one contact.

Wouldn’t it be nice if former HS who make it rich in the NFL would buy VICIS helmets at least for their alma maters?

 

[ThunderRam]

People can decide for themselves without legislation. It is about education and choosing the best route for your child (pop warner, flag football as a kid, no football at all).

THIS.

Regardless what side of the fence you're on, taking away peoples rights to make their own choices is never the right thing to do IMO. Soon, you'll live in a country where you can't do anything simply because someone else doesn't agree with it.

Life is short. Part of what makes life interesting and fun to many are doing things that come with risk. Kids can get seriously injured doing a myriad of activities. It's all about what their parents are willing to allow them to do.

I respect a parent that chooses not to allow their kid to participate. But I equally respect a parent that chooses the opposite (so long as they aren't forcing their children). I don't believe in my children carrying around a cell phone at 10 years old, as there are risks involved with that too. But as strongly as I feel about it, I wouldn't want to legislate change to prevent others from making the opposite choice. That's not how this should work.

 

[ThunderRam]

There are reasons legislation does not let kids (nor their parents) decide whether to smoke or not, wear a seatbelt, or helmets while riding a motorcycle, bicycle or skateboard.

But there's no current legislation preventing 15 - 17 year old minors from driving motor vehicles. Minors are far more at risk of major injury and death, as well as causing the same to others, than participating in any youth contact sport. Where's the support to outlaw that activity? You don't hear about it because it's considered an acceptable risk by society even though kids die behind a wheel every single day and kill others due to lack of experience or distracted driving.

There are parents that choose to allow their children to learn how to shoot firearms, even assault weapons, at extremely young ages because they feel strongly that they can teach them how to do it responsibly. But we still see case after case where this belief backfires. I don't see a movement happening to prevent these parents from being able to make that decision either, even though it presents a risk to the child and society.

Now, there’ll be responses here saying that diminished cognitive behavior has not been proven through the Boston or Wisconsin long term studies. But it’s clear the youth brain IS significantly more at risk in any contact sport. And yes, stated here on ncp, other sports have led to two concussions in our house, one contact.

So what about other activities that can cause numerous head injuries and concussions?

Girls youth soccer has more concussions that any other sport. Yet I don't see the same agenda to prevent parents from making the choice to allow their child to participate in that activity.

What about children participating in cart racing? Skateboarding? Gymnastics? Boxing? Martial arts? I could go on and on.

There is risk of numerous head injuries or even instant death in any of these activities.

To me, this is selective prosecution of one particular activity -- which is what bothers me the most.

In the end, I just can't support taking away people's rights to make their own decisions with regards to what they consider acceptable risk for themselves or the children they are responsible for. While you and I may disagree on what we consider acceptable risk, the fact that we get to make the decision for ourselves is what makes this country special.

 

[1315]

If one doesn’t understand the difference between documented concussions (yes, girls soccer has more per capita) and sub-concussive events I would suggest exploring.

As far as driving privileges, shooting guns, etc. those arguments are specious.

 

[1227Elevation]

The write-up for this petition does a good job of explaining why it might actually be safer for kids to play youth football instead of waiting until high school: https://www.change.org/p/save-youth-football-in-california

 

[ThunderRam]

If one doesn’t understand the difference between documented concussions (yes, girls soccer has more per capita) and sub-concussive events I would suggest exploring.

I understand fully and have done plenty of 'exploring'. You're just assuming otherwise because I don't agree with you.

As far as driving privileges, shooting guns, etc. those arguments are specious.

You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but not entitled to your own facts. You cannot factually prove this last statement. Someone could just as easily claim that the argument against youth football is specious.

 

[1315]

If you understand fully then why would you bring up subjects that have absolutely nothing with youth football concussions?

And then compare other sports which have FAR less factors of sub-concussive exposure?

BTW, the studies are not “my opinion.” Feel free to split hairs and dissect “facts.” Unless you’re a neurologist....

 

[ThunderRam]

The write-up for this petition does a good job of explaining why it might actually be safer for kids to play youth football instead of waiting until high school: https://www.change.org/p/save-youth-football-in-california

There always at least 2 sides to every story. The unfortunate thing is, most of us are prone to confirmation bias when we really believe in something.

As we all know, even experts often disagree. For every doctor or scientist you can find that claims one thing, you can't find another that has a contradictory opinion.

For example, while Dr. Bennet Omalu -- the guy that discovered CTE -- believes that youths shouldn't participate in football or other impact sports, his mentor Dr. Julian Bailes has the opposite opinion and has gone on record to endorse it.

Bailed pointedly disagreed with Omalu’s take on youth football, saying, “Certainly, you know, hitting your brain doesn’t do anybody any good. But there have been a lot of changes made at the youth football level. I think it is not scientifically accepted that the youth’s brain is necessarily more vulnerable than an adult brain.

“I don’t think the facts support that there are cases of CTE from youth football participation. And I don’t think the facts support that kids are suffering or being brain damaged from playing youth football as they had the last 50 years.”

He said playing football is and should be a personal choice.

“You know, as parents for instance we teach our kids a lot of things,” he said. “We teach them how to snow ski, how to snowboard, how to swim, how to hunt. We teach them about driving. We teach them a lot of sports and activities and so part of that is our responsibility to teach them the safe and right way to do it. But at the end of the day all these activities have potential risks.”

https://www.newsday.com/sports/foot...ian-bailes-endorses-youth-football-1.11214249

 

[ThunderRam]

If you understand fully then why would you bring up subjects that have absolutely nothing with youth football concussions?

To show the inconsistency in which people are applying their beliefs. I thought that was fairly clear but apparently not.

It's like the saying "people are worried about mouse shit when there's elephant shit everywhere". In the case of youth football, we're seeing people freak out and post about this topic ad nauseam yet they don't seem worried about those 'other' subjects that are far more dangerous to our youth. Hence my comment about selective prosecution. Either be consistent or shut the hell up already. That's my point.

If someone is denouncing football due to the risks of short and long term health then do the same to youth soccer, teen driving, shooting weapons etc. Otherwise they're simply being hypocritical. If they forbid their 16 yo son from playing tackle football but then hand him keys to a car, they are missing the point.

BTW, the studies are not “my opinion.” Feel free to split hairs and dissect “facts.” Unless you’re a neurologist....

Well, Dr. Julian Bailes is a neurosurgeon and he disagrees. So what does that mean to you?

These studies are limited in scope and subject to interpretation, which is precisely how you get experts in the field to disagree. You can't even get expert doctors to agree on proper diet -- which has been studied and debated for centuries longer -- yet you think these studies are fact? Give me a break.

 

[coachlittle]

People can decide for themselves without legislation.

thank you

 

[1315]

Last time I checked this was a football forum. Not sure where teen driving or shooting weapons is related.
Tell me where I “denounced football.”
Or perhaps you missed the fact mine both played in HS and reaped some benefits from that. I don’t owe anybody my opinions on teen driving or the second amendment. At least not here for heavens sake.

 

[1315]

To show the inconsistency in which people are applying their beliefs. I thought that was fairly clear but apparently not.

It's like the saying "people are worried about mouse shit when there's elephant shit everywhere". In the case of youth football, we're seeing people freak out and post about this topic ad nauseam yet they don't seem worried about those 'other' subjects that are far more dangerous to our youth. Hence my comment about selective prosecution. Either be consistent or shut the hell up already. That's my point.

If someone is denouncing football due to the risks of short and long term health then do the same to youth soccer, teen driving, shooting weapons etc. Otherwise they're simply being hypocritical. If they forbid their 16 yo son from playing tackle football but then hand him keys to a car, they are missing the point.



Well, Dr. Julian Bailes is a neurosurgeon and he disagrees. So what does that mean to you?

These studies are limited in scope and subject to interpretation, which is precisely how you get experts in the field to disagree. You can't even get expert doctors to agree on proper diet -- which has been studied and debated for centuries longer -- yet you think these studies are fact? Give me a break.

To show the inconsistency in which people are applying their beliefs. I thought that was fairly clear but apparently not.

It's like the saying "people are worried about mouse shit when there's elephant shit everywhere". In the case of youth football, we're seeing people freak out and post about this topic ad nauseam yet they don't seem worried about those 'other' subjects that are far more dangerous to our youth. Hence my comment about selective prosecution. Either be consistent or shut the hell up already. That's my point.

If someone is denouncing football due to the risks of short and long term health then do the same to youth soccer, teen driving, shooting weapons etc. Otherwise they're simply being hypocritical. If they forbid their 16 yo son from playing tackle football but then hand him keys to a car, they are missing the point.



Well, Dr. Julian Bailes is a neurosurgeon and he disagrees. So what does that mean to you?

These studies are limited in scope and subject to interpretation, which is precisely how you get experts in the field to disagree. You can't even get expert doctors to agree on proper diet -- which has been studied and debated for centuries longer -- yet you think these studies are fact? Give me a break.

http://www.latimes.com/science/scie...n-movie-julian-bailes-20151223-htmlstory.html

Feel free to hang your hat on Dr. Bailes. It’s his his position, that repetitive sub concussive events contribute to CTE....or maybe I don’t understand English.

Sir/Madam, you’re barking at the messenger.

 

[ThunderRam]

Last time I checked this was a football forum. Not sure where teen driving or shooting weapons is related.

I already explained the comparison and why I used it, so no point in beating a dead horse.

Tell me where I “denounced football.”
Or perhaps you missed the fact mine both played in HS and reaped some benefits from that. I don’t owe anybody my opinions on teen driving or the second amendment. At least not here for heavens sake.

Tell me where I said that you did. I made a generic, blanket statement that didn't single you out at all.

Lastly, I didn't ask for your opinion on teen driving or the second amendment. I merely gave you mine with regard to someone applying their protectiveness over their children rather subjectively and inconsistently.

In the end, the point wasn't who is right or who is wrong in their beliefs regarding youth concussions. As clearly stated, it can't be proven one way or the other. Even the experts disagree. The point is that I don't want to see legislation enacted to prevent the choice. That's not the right answer.

 

[ThunderRam]

thank you

Exactly.

People can respectively disagree. But once disagreement turns into the opposition legislating your choices away from you, that's where I have a huge problem.

 

[Bubba3000]

Can’t we all just get along?

Love,
Rodney

 

[SpeedCity51]

Newsflash: you can find stats to back up both sides of the argument.

Newsflash: there are experts on both sides.

If you guys wanna debate, then craft your own arguments and debate. Stop trying to post a link as if it’s some mic drop, because it isn’t.

 

[1227Elevation]

The argument made in the petition link I posted is that youth football is a good time to learn proper tackling and blocking techniques, because kids are smaller and slower and so the impacts when they hit each other aren't as severe. Once they get to high school they are bigger and faster and hit harder and if they don't know how to do it, they are more at risk of injury then when the consequences could be more serious. And, because of the existing restrictions on how much contact is allowed during high school practices, there aren't adequate opportunities for high school coaches to teach these techniques: meaning kids who didn't learn those skills in youth football are more at risk of getting hurt at the high school level.

USA Football really emphasizes heads up tacking and requires all of their youth coaches to complete that training before they can be certified to coach. Different youth leagues have different requirements, but the one I'm familiar with required there to be an EMT present for all games. And many teams in the league used Guardian Caps for practices. Those kinds of requirements are more appropriate than banning youth football outright.

Anecdotally, when you think of all of the kids who've played youth and high school football throughout the years, if it were truly that dangerous, wouldn't there be a CTE epidemic happening right now? I'm not talking NFL players, I'm talking regular people who played as kids and in high school. There's not.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be concussion protocols and attention given and efforts made to reducing their frequency and severity in football, of course there should. But I agree that banning youth football is overkill and doesn't make sense.

 

[bella123]

Please let parents raise their children not the people’s republic of California. Those idiots (legislators) have no idea what’s “best” for anyone else’s child. Hard to get onbard with this blatant retard train.

 

[ararar]

Save youth football

https://www.change.org/p/save-youth-football-in-california

 

[1227Elevation]

Save youth football

https://www.change.org/p/save-youth-football-in-california

That's the petition link I posted up thread. They have over 10,000 "signatures" now in less than 24 hours.

 

[Bkelly5]

USA Football is an advocate of hawk tackling, basically a rugby tackling technique that takes the head out of the tackle. If youth football is banned, kids could play rugby to learn proper tackling. IMO the practices are more dangerous than the games. Honestly, I’ve seen more gladiator bull-in-the-ring and 20 yards apart collision style tackling where the coaches are more pumped than the players than I’ve seen sub full-speed hawk tackling practice.

 

[Bkelly5]

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013...ll-and-cheer-accused-of-embezzling-thousands/

I cringe every time I hear of shady adults ripping off youth football programs. The article says this is the second go-around for Rocklin. I remember the Del Oro youth football president stealing thousands to take vacations about five years ago. And I have it on very good authority that a major Elk Grove youth football program had this same embezzlement problem but they didn’t want bad publicity for the program so didn’t report it. Disgusting.

 

[observer22]

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013...ll-and-cheer-accused-of-embezzling-thousands/

I cringe every time I hear of shady adults ripping off youth football programs. The article says this is the second go-around for Rocklin. I remember the Del Oro youth football president stealing thousands to take vacations about five years ago. And I have it on very good authority that a major Elk Grove youth football program had this same embezzlement problem but they didn’t want bad publicity for the program so didn’t report it. Disgusting.

Horrible. Unfortunately it is all too common. The San Ramon Bears program endured that indignity a few years back as well. Need to have strict checks and balances.

 

[NorCalScout]

I am ok with banning youth tackle football until kids are 13 or 14 years old. We need to shorten the amount of years kid and adult play this game. I think it should start at 13 or freshmen year in high school. College is college, 4 or 5 years and then the cba in the pros should only have to play 6 years to get your max retirement and benefits. Start at 13 or 14, play until you are 28-29, 15 years at a high level and contact sport is plenty, this might stop all the concussion syndrome and athletes retiring early and just maybe these athletes can enjoy a peaceful and relaxing life after football without post football related injuries.