As a summation for earlier posts on this matter, here's where we stand as the NorCal finals loom later this week: Of the 12 finalists in six divisions, five are from the WCAL and WBAL. That's almost half the field. That includes the elite Open Division where both finalists, Pinewood and Mitty, represent those two private/parochial leagues. The combined strength of the WCAL and the WBAL is so overwhelming in the Central Coast Section, public school leagues might not be an afterthought, but it's mighty close.
CCS NorCal Finalists
- Thread starter colhenrylives
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Great showing for the CCS with Pinewood upsetting St. Mary's and SHC making the finals as a 14 seed.
SHC 10th seed who played a hell of a schedule which seems to now be paying off. i wouldn't be surprised if they win it all. Hats off to Pinewood SMS is a hard place to win but the run stops at Mitty.
I was thinking the same thing. A 5 point loss to MM in december.. but SHC is not the same team they were in dec..
a 5-point margin on a neutral court, adversaries alternating quarter-by-quarter "wins", suggests a close rematch.
Streak One maybe you will eventually figure out the strength of the WCAL and WBAL in relation to the rest of Norcal and rank them accordingly in the future?
It definitely didn't happen in your rankings this season.
to be fair the NCS sent 4 teams to the OPEN
and has EASILY sent the most teams to the OPEN since inception.
when the NCS sections' 3rd and 4th best teams are sacrificial lambs every year in the OPEN it tends to lead to the NCS not winning as many state titles as they should.
Quite frankly if CN and BOD were in D1 it would most likely be an all NCS final.
and has EASILY sent the most teams to the OPEN since inception.
when the NCS sections' 3rd and 4th best teams are sacrificial lambs every year in the OPEN it tends to lead to the NCS not winning as many state titles as they should.
Quite frankly if CN and BOD were in D1 it would most likely be an all NCS final.
You might very well be right nbguru. It truly is hard to seed the Open because it is really hard to find 8 teams that are evenly matched at the top. It may become easier a year or two from now, but who knows. It will never be a perfect system. In the end it really is just a game and if you are solely seeking championships the experience is probably pretty shallow. Those kids at CN learned so much more about life and perseverance this year than any basketball game could teach them. If that's the focus then they are champions.
We are talking about two leagues, not sections. Name two NCS leagues that produce more NorCal finalists than the WCAL and WBAL.
I understand loyalty to your local school, or your daughter's alma mater--I'm a victim of both. but a league? a section? really? the need to woof and chest-beat is bad enough (testosterone poisoning? identifying the Alpha for mating purposes?) but to me it gets in the way of appreciating girls' basketball.
the kids who play on "losing" teams, from 0-26 to SMS, deserve respect for their courage and hard work. there is something in the air that encourages partisanship and eclipses the beauty of the sport and its varied participants. it's always been there, but it's a distraction to me. the positive comments about the achievements and character of the CN girls are the kind of stuff that's good to read, and it belongs to them regardless of their Norcal seeding. we'll all be heading into the loss column soon enough, no matter how we are seeded.
CCS publics as an afterthought is about our thinking, not about those teams, deserving of thought and recognition. and I'm sure they get plenty, just not on this board. they're no afterthought to people whose thoughts matter to the kids.
the kids who play on "losing" teams, from 0-26 to SMS, deserve respect for their courage and hard work. there is something in the air that encourages partisanship and eclipses the beauty of the sport and its varied participants. it's always been there, but it's a distraction to me. the positive comments about the achievements and character of the CN girls are the kind of stuff that's good to read, and it belongs to them regardless of their Norcal seeding. we'll all be heading into the loss column soon enough, no matter how we are seeded.
CCS publics as an afterthought is about our thinking, not about those teams, deserving of thought and recognition. and I'm sure they get plenty, just not on this board. they're no afterthought to people whose thoughts matter to the kids.
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Good point. The heading was unclear. The post itself should have been. But maybe not.
I don’t think it would be an all NCS final. CN and BOD are good teams but so are the final 4 teams in the D1 final. Games would have come down to match ups. St Francis, SHC, Pres and St Joes can comepete with BOD and CN. It wouldn’t have been a cake walk
I just saw the stats posted for the Mitty - Salesian game. Angel Jackson had 20 and 10, but honestly from watching the game, it seemed like she had 40 and 20. She's just a matchup nightmare.
Of course Haley Jones was awesome (32 and 12) even though she sat out for several minutes getting her ankle retaped.
And then Karisma Ortiz had 10, 15, and 6. She just always seems to be in the right place at the right time. What a player, Penn State is getting a good one.
Of course Haley Jones was awesome (32 and 12) even though she sat out for several minutes getting her ankle retaped.
And then Karisma Ortiz had 10, 15, and 6. She just always seems to be in the right place at the right time. What a player, Penn State is getting a good one.
Lololololol uhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Anyone with half a mind for basketball knows that only Miramonte in D1 could compete with CN and BOD..... but MM needed to eliminate the competition, so CN and BOD were ousted to the open division
I'm confused as to how you come to that assumption. MM only beat SHC by 5 in a preseason game and CN beat them by 7. How don't you think they can compete with BOD and CN and they have already played them both in close games? Is the half of brain you have functioning?
Not sure about this but the winsome Donald PW may have been attempting some sarcasm in his post.
Hey man, that's a cheap shot, you didn't mean that! I want you to take back what you said to me right now! Take it back!
I think that critique is unfair. SHC was pretty high for much of the year until they took some league losses, Presentation was a Top 20 team, Mitty/Pinewood/Eastside were all in the Top 10 or 11 throughout the year.
St. Francis was a clear miss heading into the postseason, but I think our rankings have been both fair and pretty accurate to what has happened in the playoffs.
St. Francis was a clear miss heading into the postseason, but I think our rankings have been both fair and pretty accurate to what has happened in the playoffs.
Don't act like WCAL has all 5 team going to norcal finals every year. WCAL is head and shoulders above the rest but 3, maybe 4 years ago, Alameda-Contra Costa had some damn good teams. Berkeley (Draper), CV, BOD, and Alameda (when they were in their hey day). DFAL when Dublin (wainwright sp?), Campo, Miramonte, Dougherty Valley....it ebbs and flows in the public school sector but all of those leagues were very dangerous and could play with anyone.
There was a time where SHC and Mitty were the ONLY great teams in that division. SI, SF, and VC were just better than average. Now you have this competitive equity crap and all of the divisions are utter crap. A true D1 division and the top teams would have had troubles. Same thing with D2 and so forth.
True. Old system without the open would have the Nor Cal Finals looking pretty good.
D1 Folsom vs St. Mary's Stockton
D2 Mitty vs Miramonte
D3 Salesian vs Cardinal Newman or SHC
D4 SJND vs West Campus
D5 Eastside vs Pinewood
For the last 6 years the WCAL has represented very well. St. Francis, Mitty, SI up until last year, SHC, Valley and ND Belmont until they left the league has represented in all divisions. Mitty has won 1 state championship and lost 2, and SHC has won 1 and lost one, and St Francis has lost in the Nor Cal final. There has been at least 1 team in the state championship game and multiple in the Nor Cal Game.
Yeah, I'd like to know which years he is referring to where the WCAL had only two teams that weren't merely "better than average".
Look at this year.
Valley Christian is playing in the Norcal Finals? Last in their league? Presentation is the ONLY good win on their entire regular season schedule. No disrespect to post season opponents but if we're talking competitive, are you saying they had a hard road to the finals this year? It was a friggen cake walk.
Last year, lost first round NOrcals, played two very good teams, the rest were average.
St. Ignatius
Beat a struggling O'dowd team in december
beat pleasant valley
lost to foothill (have NO clue how this happened)
had a harder road in post season play, but just better than average preseason schedule. Not barn burners.
Last year: Semi-finals Norcal. played a better than average preseason schedule.
St. Francis
Who did they beat this year? nobody in the preseason..just a bunch of average teams. No, they did beat Aptos. Aptos was pretty good.
Last year: Harrigan's last year, made it to second round of Norcals. Played only one legit team in Pinewood in preseason. the rest average.
SHP
Beast of a schedule
Beat: Sacramento, highland prep but lost to a ton of great teams. So for this, I"ll say that they're better than average.
Last year, lost in first round of Norcals. Probably shouldn't have been in that division but we all know CIF is a joke. but also looking at their schedule...no big wins..just average/better to average games. Correction: they beat McClatchy
Presentation
had a wonderful year! nothing but props to Wade and staff.
Lost last year in the first round of Norcals-do you think they would have gotten in on merit alone with a 15-15 record? They got in because of that garbage open division CCS rule that automatically gets in.
Mitty-another universe
I admit that WCAL is probably the best league in the state the last few years. But I just think they get great press because of Mitty and SHC's body of work the last 15 years. SCH was best in the league for a while (russel and co) and Mitty was (crag) and now more recent. The other teams, while good, show good on paper because they are just better than average. I'd like to see the bottom half of the teams in the WCAL play the schedule that SHC did and see where they landed. They're good, but you're acting like they've been the best forever. On any given year, I'd put up DFAL, EBAL, and ACCAL's team up against them and it'd probably be pretty even. Mitty would go undefeated but the rest would be a dogfight.
Interesting analysis but you are wrong in a couple of areas.
First, Saint Francis made it to the third round of NorCal last year, not the second.
Next, I’d argue that Menlo-Atherton is as good (I personally think better) than Aptos so that adds another quality win to SF’s list.
Also why would you consider SHC “better than average” just for losing to good teams?
Sure, they beat Sacramento, but so did SF’s team last year, who you did not mention as a legit win.
I do happen to agree with you about VC and SI because I have seen them play this year, but I can’t make a judgment on SHC since I have not seen them.
My point is that you can’t accurately label these teams as “average” without digging a little deeper than just skimming over the schedule.
Sans that garbage open division rule, CCS would send their top 4 from every division just like everyone else. I feel pretty safe saying they get in on merit alone. Especially if CCS implements that garbage NCS policy of sending QF losers when teams get pulled to open.
Great points. I didn't list every one..my bad...got lazy in my old age! lol I saw SHC play 3 times this year and was impressed everything I saw them. I also saw St. Francis and was not impressed at all. Didn't see SI or VC. Just looked based on schedule.
My whole take is if they're that good, top two go open and send the rest to D1-who cares if there are 4 CCS teams in D1 and they're from the same league! If they're the doo doo, then they belong. Open division means (to me) best of the best. If you're not in the "open division, then all the "open teams" are in the next best division, which is D1. If you have all the teams coming from the TOP league in the TOP division of CCS, shouldn't they be in the TOP divisions in Norcal playoffs? I'm not gonna cry over spilled milk and we have enough people on here that are not in favor of how the teams were seeded. But It's likely that nothing will change after this year OR what I hope will happen is more transparency as to how the process would go. I bet (never happen again-not unionized) if all the "big" programs said we're going to protest because of the lack of transparency, then maybe CIF would listen..but this would have to happen in both half of the states. I'm dreaming!
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So, in the end, teams from two CCS private/parochial leagues, the WCAL (SHC) and the WBAL (Priory and Pinewood), won half of the NorCal titles.
... so for all of you outside the Central Coast Section, the NorCal final results give you a pretty strong indication of what it's like for public schools to compete in that neck of the CIF woods year-in and year-out...it's no bargain...
In the NorCal finals, five of 12 were from the two CCS private/parochial leagues. State finals, three of six are from those circuits, or 50 percent. That includes the Open.
I think the biggest thing you have to take into consideration is the strength of the league. Pre-season schedules are what they are and every coach has their method to the madness. However, the league in its self makes all of these teams better as the season goes on. They don't get the cake walk most teams get when the pre-season is over.
ANOTHER THING you have to keep in mind is that per CIF rules a team has to go .500 in the pre-season OR .500 in league in order to qualify for the playoffs. This is another reason why some teams in the WCAL schedule light in the pre-season. To ensure they can even play in the post season because the league is so tough it's very likely a team could not go .500 in league. SHC treaded lightly this year going under .500 in the pre-season and putting it all on the line in league.
In terms of this year. Keep in mind SI has injuries to 3 starters for a long period of time. They are also young which might be why the lighter pre-season schedule was this year. Let's not forget SI just 3 years ago was ranked in the nation behind Raggio & co!
Valley is a very competitive team and well coached they just can't get the kids to compete at the level of the rest of the WCAL. In another other league Public or Private Valley places 1st or 2nd with out a doubt.
St. Francis same deal. New coach making sure her team qualified for the playoffs. They still competed in Division 1. Beat Lowell (competing for a state championship, Menlo Atherton who everyone was high on, lost close ones to ESP, St. Joes, early in the season then beat Bear Creek and St. Joes in the playoffs. How aren't these wins quality wins? They are top 20 teams!
SHC this year and last year were better than average. You don't get put in the OPEN as a better than average team. I'm confused on your logic here. Last year they beat Mission Hills, McClatchy, Fairmont Prep, Salesian, and ESP. Not to mention playing in the WCAL. This year the schedule was the schedule and they lost a lot of close games early. Paid off in the end routing St. Francis (who beat St. Joes & Bear Creek both top 25 teams, Heritage, MM and winning a close one to ESP (all top 20 teams). That's a bit above average.
What teams from these other leagues do you think could play with the teams in the WCAL top to bottom?
I don't think there's any doubt, or has been, that the WCAL is the best in Northern California. This year, in fact, it is one of the best in the country, perhaps stronger than the Washington Catholic Athletic Conference in D.C.
Of course, it all goes in cycles. Talent springs up in some places for a while, and then it doesn't. What is now the Diablo Athletic League was very strong five or six years ago; this year it was not strong at all. The same up-and-down pattern is true of every league and every area, even the WCAL (though the WCAL never goes down very far in terms of other NorCal leagues).
But, as I've said before, gloat while you can, and the WCAL players, coaches and fans should take great pride in their accomplishments this year. Very, very impressive ...
Of course, it all goes in cycles. Talent springs up in some places for a while, and then it doesn't. What is now the Diablo Athletic League was very strong five or six years ago; this year it was not strong at all. The same up-and-down pattern is true of every league and every area, even the WCAL (though the WCAL never goes down very far in terms of other NorCal leagues).
But, as I've said before, gloat while you can, and the WCAL players, coaches and fans should take great pride in their accomplishments this year. Very, very impressive ...
Gloating is misplaced if any smugness is based on the WCAL's overwhelming domination of CCS public schools. Two very different sets of enrollment rules. When a CCS public school defeats at WCAL girls' hoops unit, it is cause for wild celebrations in the streets from Daly City to King City.
