NCS Div 4.

[jaybones]

Man with the big dawgs moving up to D3 this has become a very competitive division in my opinion the top 6 teams are all on level playing grounds any one could beat anyone. Saying that how important is that top three seeds to ensure your playing at home? And who do you think will get them? My thoughts
(If Del- Norte can beat Eureka tonight for a third time and SPVH loses to salesian on sat. I'm thinking the DN warriors should get the #1 seed) with a Del-Norte loss tonight you could flip 1 & 2

#1 Del Norte
#2 SPVH
#3 Marin Catholic
#4 swett
#5 piedmont
#6 Lick

 

[ClayK]

Just like to point out that Ronnie McGee has elevated John Swett from a team everyone wanted to play to a top four program in D-4. It's no easy task to make something like that happen ...

 

[jaybones]

Well the del norte warriors did there part they defeated eureka last night to finish the regular season at 21-2 the question remains do they have a shot at #1 if SPVH loses to Salesian tonight

 

[ClayK]

Since SPSV just beat Salesian, a likely Open team, it might be hard to deny SPSV the top seed.

Huge win for Nadine Walker and her program ...

 

[jaybones]

Since SPSV just beat Salesian, a likely Open team, it might be hard to deny SPSV the top seed.

Huge win for Nadine Walker and her program ...

Agree they sealed #1

 

[jaybones]

Agree they sealed #1

The new question does SPVH win make swett a more viable #2 since they have beat SPVH........ I hope the warriors can hold on to #2

 

[winetot]

How did St. Mary's Berkeley qualify? They are under .500 overall, under .500 in league and under .500 against DIV. The seeding is interesting. They have St. Pat's v Swett in semi's and Del Norte v Marin Catholic if top seeds win first 2. Swett beat St. Pat's this year, St. Pat's beat Salesian. Salesian is the #1 seed in D3. How in the world do they not have Swett at least the 3 seed.

 

[winetot]

Also, Ygnacio Valley received the 11 seed. They lost to Benicia who Napa beat by 38. 20 wins is a little overstated here. Honestly, who sits on the committees? What do they look at and most importantly why are coaches asked to seed the teams? I know, for sure, a lot of coaches really take it seriously when breaking down all other teams in their divisions, the common opponents, the head to head games. It is a shame that the NCS does not take it as seriously as the coaches and I have a real tough time understanding what they even look at when doing their job. It is sad and disappointing.

 

[ClayK]

Ygnacio Valley also beat Benicia and would have been the league champ except that the DAL breaks the tie by which team wins the most recent game -- so YV, despite the same 8-2 record as Benicia, was not the league champ.

YV is also rated in the 500s by the MaxPreps computer and Benicia is in the 800s, so I think it's fair to say that Benicia's win counts as a significant upset -- and Salesian, as you mention, lost to St. Patrick St. Vincent, but Salesian beat SPSV twice.

Of course there are always errors, but I think to say that the committee doesn't know anything or pay attention is unfair. All in all, looking at the brackets, there were a lot more good decisions than bad ones.

 

[winetot]

Clay -

Are you on the committee? If so, help me understand how St. Mary's Berkeley qualified. I get that their strength of schedule is superior to most, if not all, the other Division 4 participants but they are under .500 in all 3 of the playoff eligible criteria...

 

[Paytc]

Ygnacio Valley also beat Benicia and would have been the league champ except that the DAL breaks the tie by which team wins the most recent game -- so YV, despite the same 8-2 record as Benicia, was not the league champ.

YV is also rated in the 500s by the MaxPreps computer and Benicia is in the 800s, so I think it's fair to say that Benicia's win counts as a significant upset -- and Salesian, as you mention, lost to St. Patrick St. Vincent, but Salesian beat SPSV twice.

Of course there are always errors, but I think to say that the committee doesn't know anything or pay attention is unfair. All in all, looking at the brackets, there were a lot more good decisions than bad ones.

I'm sure there are probably more good decisions than bad. But one question is just about how much insight does the committee have that limits them from getting closer to 99% than 51% better decisions? And is there a way to improve things, if so how?

 

[winetot]

I'm sure there are probably more good decisions than bad. But one question is just about how much insight does the committee have that limits them from getting closer to 99% than 51% better decisions? And is there a way to improve things, if so how?

Ultimately, that is my question as well. The paperwork that ALL coaches are asked to complete is incredibly tedious and I am sure not all coaches spend a lot of time on it. However, there are a number of coaches who really do spend hours trying to get their seeding correct. It appears to me, that a lot of that research falls on deaf ears with the formed committees. The days when we sat in the room in front of the committee and pleaded our case were agonizing but at least the committee heard the arguments. It appears to me that they do not even look at all the paperwork(after all that would be time consuming). Again, it is sad and disappointing and I believe I am looking it all with open eyes.

 

[ClayK]

I would like more specific examples. In another thread, every "bad" decision was justified by the computer rankings, which seemed to be the tiebreaker.

It's always easy to criticize, but the SMB situation, for example, is not up to the committee doing the seeding. That's an NCS decision.

 

[Paytc]

I would like more specific examples. In another thread, every "bad" decision was justified by the computer rankings, which seemed to be the tiebreaker.

It's always easy to criticize, but the SMB situation, for example, is not up to the committee doing the seeding. That's an NCS decision.

It's also typically very easy to improve and/ or fix things. But the first step is always acknowledging there is a need to make a fix or improvement. I don't personally have any examples, but I think several have been made on this forum not just this particular post.

 

[winetot]

Clay - isn’t the committee a representative of the section? With applications due at 10 pm the night before 8am seeding meetings, it’s apparent to me the section is not doing their job helping the committee with the process.

 

[mkbgdns]

one person's good decision is another's bad decision. if the seeding group was made up of 5 randomly selected participants on this message board, they'd still be arguing about DV this morning

 

[winetot]

Truly, my only question is what is the eligibility criteria? Clay , please help me understand what I am missing in the SMB situation.

 

[norcalbasketball]

What a win by SPSV in the league championship game!

 

[ClayK]

I have no clue about SMB. Love to know the answer ...

 

[winetot]

NCS has SMB 5-5 in league. Is it possible SMB beat Salesian, SPSV or Swett? Maxpreps has them losing 2x to each of those schools, beating El Cerrito and Bethel 2x each. Which, in my math is 4-6. They did beat Bethel in league tourney but lost to Salesian, so even best case scenario that’s 5-7. So if they were 5-5, one of the other schools had 1 less win and 1 more loss. If that team was Swett, that would explain the 4 seed a lot better to me.

 

[straightline50]

maybe a forfeit was a factor.

 

[anon_kkfyqmvklu2v4]

SMB was just notified that the invite to NCS was rescinded. D4 bracket has been updated.

 

[norcalbasketball]

SMB was just notified that the invite to NCS was rescinded. D4 bracket has been updated.

Lol what a joke. How unorganized.

 

[ClayK]

Amazing ... so did SMB fill out the form wrong?

I'm going to be an NCS apologizer here: There are 150+ applications that come in during about a five-day span. There's no way they can check every application for accuracy in that time, and so they have to rely on coaches to be accurate. If questions are raised, then the forms are checked.

This happened to Campolindo a few years ago, I think, and the bracket was revised.

Now if someone on the board wants to volunteer to check each application game-by-game next year, such mistakes can be avoided.

 

[ctoler20]

Amazing ... so did SMB fill out the form wrong?

I'm going to be an NCS apologizer here: There are 150+ applications that come in during about a five-day span. There's no way they can check every application for accuracy in that time, and so they have to rely on coaches to be accurate. If questions are raised, then the forms are checked.

This happened to Campolindo a few years ago, I think, and the bracket was revised.

Now if someone on the board wants to volunteer to check each application game-by-game next year, such mistakes can be avoided.

Clay,

All forms, records and/or numbers were accurate and in on time.

 

[straightline50]

Amazing ... so did SMB fill out the form wrong?

I'm going to be an NCS apologizer here: There are 150+ applications that come in during about a five-day span. There's no way they can check every application for accuracy in that time, and so they have to rely on coaches to be accurate. If questions are raised, then the forms are checked.

This happened to Campolindo a few years ago, I think, and the bracket was revised.

Now if someone on the board wants to volunteer to check each application game-by-game next year, such mistakes can be avoided.

Then don't volunteer to be on the committee. It is that simple, apology not accepted. DO YOUR JOB or don't do it at all.

So BOD is banned from the post season for playing one too many games and the committee caught that. But, SMB can submit a form that has them as qualified but they are not and there will not be any punishment? Now, they are not going to re-seed the tournament? What a travesty.

 

[observer22]

SMB was just notified that the invite to NCS was rescinded. D4 bracket has been updated.

Incredible. It’s like someone called them and said they read on here that SMB might not be eligible. Something so obvious should have been picked up even if there were 150+ applications to check. Seems like the record would be the first thing you look at before looking into strength of schedule.

 

[LBJ6]

Incredible. It’s like someone called them and said they read on here that SMB might not be eligible. Something so obvious should have been picked up even if there were 150+ applications to check. Seems like the record would be the first thing you look at before looking into strength of schedule.

the sad part is saint Mary's is the 4th or 5th best team in that bracket. They got punished for challenging themselves.

 

[straightline50]

the sad part is saint Mary's is the 4th or 5th best team in that bracket. They got punished for challenging themselves.

They got punished for failing to meet the challenge.

 

[winetot]

Clay,

All forms, records and/or numbers were accurate and in on time.

So you didn’t know you were 11-17 overall, 4-6 in league and 2-5 versus D4?

 

[Norcal_Fan]

in all fairness...I would be surprised to hear how many coach actually know the rules when it comes to being an at-large berth. I would say at least half do not know the criteria. On the Division 5 boys side there was a team or two that were eligible but didn't apply.

 

[ClayK]

So here's the story:

Chris Toler, the coach at SMB, did not know the exact criteria and decided to apply.

His application clearly shows an overall record below .500, a league record below .500 and a division record below .500.

He made one error on the application, reversing a score but still recording the game as a loss, but that error had nothing to do with whether SMB qualified.

Clearly, the committee never looked at the sheet when they did the bracketing, assuming that if he applied, he must have been eligible. It did not require any in-depth analysis to read the numbers at the top right of the form, so this is clearly an NCS error. Even if there 150 applications, checking those three numbers on the form would have taken 20 minutes at most.

 

[winetot]

I’m pretty sure the criteria is well stated on the NCS website

 

[straightline50]

I’m pretty sure the criteria is well stated on the NCS website

How does NCS backfill teams into Nor Cal after teams are selected to the Open? NCS does a poor job of any communication. Information on their website is like a maze.

 

[anon_kkfyqmvklu2v4]

Coach Toler acknowledged his mistake about the criteria to apply for an at large entry.
Clay's post pertains to NCS accountability in this.

 

[ClayK]

How does NCS backfill teams into Nor Cal after teams are selected to the Open? NCS does a poor job of any communication. Information on their website is like a maze.

That's a great question. There are two logical paths:

1) Submit the best teams, which presumably would favor Divisions I and II. But this year, if two D-III teams go Open, and then the NorCal entries are filled by the best teams, it's possible that D-III would wind up with just two teams in NorCal while D-1 could get six.

2) Fill from the appropriate division. If a D-1 team is chosen, move a D-I team up; if a D-III team is chosen, add a D-III team.

I think NCS has chosen option 2, which is both fair (to teams from lower divisions) and unfair (in terms of competitive equity).

 

[jaybones]

• D4 went as scheduled all top seeds advanced and all by double digits with the exception of the Fortuna vs Urban game that was Urban by 7pts
  
  
• So which Quarter final match up intrigues you most?
• For me its the Swett vs Piedmont game for the biggest reason I don't think Urban and Lick are the same caliber as the other 5 teams. I do believe Swett will get the win and the top 4 seeds will advance though.