Dumb question

[awood1]

Besides DLS, I hear about Serra, Mitty, Valley Christian, Bellarmine, St. Francis, St. Ignatius, Riordan, SHC & SHP from the Bay area. Without specific knowledge, it appears that these are all private schools.

Here in the SJS we hear about Folsom, Grant, Rocklin, GB, Vacaville, etc. In the world of "big boy" football in the SJS, Jesuit and St. Mary's are generally the only parochial schools in the conversation.

On to the dumb question; Are there any good public school programs in the Bay Area? Who are they? Is it that all of the talent goes private, or are the public schools the $hits academically? What gives?

 

[larry legend33]

I think a lot has to do with quality of schools and education. You look around Sacramento and Rocklin, Davis, Oak Ridge, Granite Bay, etc are some of the best academic schools in the state. The Elk Grove School District is very well known and respected. I would say a Grant is maybe an exception. You have a remarkable coach and human being who coaches there and has changed the lives of many kids. He's a difference maker. In these other areas you don't have to send your kid to Jesuit or Christian Brothers. You can make a strong case that the public education is as good. Not the case in a lot of the bay area schools. Plus its population driven too. There are a heck of a lot more people who live in the bay and the ones that stayed send there kids to private schools and the ones that left are the reason why the Sac metro area is so damn good. They took there money and resources and dumped it into the local economy. Look at how many transplants made this place the way it is. Elk Grove is a prime example.

There are still good publics in the bay.
Milpitas
Los Gatos
Palo Alto High
Rancho Cotati
Concord
Campo

 

[mshNASTY]

When u think about it DLS has won 22-23 straight NCS championships which overshadows all NCS D1 schools when it comes to CIF bowl rankings. Your "big boys" of the sac-Joaquin can't play with them either. If u think Folsom is so great why did they lose 45-14 the last 2 years to the Spartans. Every EBAL team puts up roughly the same score every week. Palo Alto won the D1 state championship in 2010 and the 12-2 Cal High team could of probably done the same if they didn't have to play DLS twice. BTW DLS had several players on that team get big time scholarships that should have gone to Cal High (Houston Bro's, Tauatasi, etc). 2 years ago when Granite Bay won the D1 state title but they lost to Pitt that season, but Pitt obviously plays in the NCS so I believe the best D1 team from NorCal was not represented. I'd agree Sac-Joaquin public school football is awesome right now but there hardly the "big boys", they're playoff system is better and allows teams chances to bypass playing DLS

 

[TedSmithers]

Originally posted by awood1:
Besides DLS, I hear about Serra, Mitty, Valley Christian, Bellarmine, St. Francis, St. Ignatius, Riordan, SHC & SHP from the Bay area. Without specific knowledge, it appears that these are all private schools.


There are 2 schools in that list...which I won't name to be P.C...which are indeed private schools in the WCAL, but have rather atrocious football programs. I would not lump them into being considered top tier football programs.

On an adjacent topic, SHP (damn...I broke that P.C. promise) has been doing very well as a small enrollment private program; they are not WCAL however. They are a clear example of doing "a lot with so little"....relatively speaking.

Originally posted by awood1:

On to the dumb question; Are there any good public school programs in the Bay Area? Who are they? Is it that all of the talent goes private, or are the public schools the $hits academically? What gives?

Solid public football programs...Ones that come to mind that have been CONSISTENTLY in the top tier, not in any order...
Los Gatos (pretty consistent year after year)CampolindoPittsburgPalo Alto (Earl Hansen's teams)EBAL teams (SRV, Foothill, California)DVAL teams (CVC, Concord)
And yes, some of those teams have beaten those private schools you mentioned.

 

[herwoo12]

Haaaaaaaa@mshnasty

This post was edited on 12/2 5:11 PM by herwoo12

 

[NorCalSportsFan]

NCS the public school programs in recent years that tend to play at a higher level include:

Pittsburg (BVAL) - has played SJS teams
California High -San Ramon (EBAL) - has played SJS teams and nationally ranked teams. Plays DLS very tough in some years.
James Logan - Union City (Independent) - some years very strong
San Ramon Valley (EBAL)
Foothill - Pleasanton (EBAL)
Monte Vista - Danville (EBAL) except for recently have been down
Clayton Valley (recently - changed to charter school)
Concord in some years is pretty good like this year


CCS
The private schools tend to dominate the public schools (WCAL). Every few years a very strong team comes out of the public schools. There are a few very good private programs (Sacred Heart Prep and Palma) and public small schools (e.g., Aptos, Carmel, Pacific Grove). Probably only Sacred Heart Prep (more recent and maybe only every few years) and Palma (more in the past but looks strong for the next few years) can compete with the stronger programs in Norcal sections. Aptos, a small public school, looks like it has emerged over the last few years (Blankenship the HC has won large school titles as HC in the central Section, and former school Ernie Cooper was HC at Aptos before Granite Bay). Aptos played Granite bay this year and surprisingly held their own for most of the game.

Some of the stronger public school teams in CCS include:

DeAnza league in CCS typically has some relatively strong public school. In some years maybe a strong year the top team can compete with SJS top teams (This year Los Gatos and Milpitas could). Would say last few years the strongest public school league in CCS.

Los Gatos (DeAnza league) - every few years field very string teams (lost by 3 to St Mary's - Stockton this year)

Palo Alto High (DeAnza) - except been down last couple years after long time HC retired. Defeated Centennial Corona in state D1 bowl game a few years ago/

Milpitas (DeAnza) - some years have strong teams. Very athletic teams in some years. Kind of Grant like. This year the line may have been bigger than Grants. At least comparable.

In the past the MBL-top league and PAL-top league have had some strong public school teams, but not perennial powers that compete with WCAL).

This post was edited on 12/2 5:22 PM by NorCalSportsFan

 

[awood1]

Originally posted by mshNASTY:
When u think about it DLS has won 22-23 straight NCS championships which overshadows all NCS D1 schools when it comes to CIF bowl rankings. Your "big boys" of the sac-Joaquin can't play with them either. If u think Folsom is so great why did they lose 45-14 the last 2 years to the Spartans. Every EBAL team puts up roughly the same score every week. Palo Alto won the D1 state championship in 2010 and the 12-2 Cal High team could of probably done the same if they didn't have to play DLS twice. BTW DLS had several players on that team get big time scholarships that should have gone to Cal High (Houston Bro's, Tauatasi, etc). 2 years ago when Granite Bay won the D1 state title but they lost to Pitt that season, but Pitt obviously plays in the NCS so I believe the best D1 team from NorCal was not represented. I'd agree Sac-Joaquin public school football is awesome right now but there hardly the "big boys", they're playoff system is better and allows teams chances to bypass playing DLS

Well I get where the NASTY part comes from now!

I used the phrase "big boys" to clarify that I was speaking to D1-D3. Bradshaw Christian, Capital Christian, Christian Brothers all have very good small school programs. I don't believe I even mentioned a W-L comparison anywhere? Not once did I talk about "best" or good?

Please do us all a favor and take a deep breath and read the question before you go pounding on the keyboard again. I was born and raised in the Midwest. It was an observation that private / parochial schools seem to be a much bigger presence in the Bay Area and a question as to why that is, not an attack on anyone nor a claim of superiority.

 

[bayside101]

Northern California has become a lot like Los Angeles, The private schools dominate the areas with high population density and high housing prices and the publics dominate the Valley where housing prices are lower and life is a bit more family friendly.

Pinole Valley, El Cerrito
in their peak football years were 3000 students(early 90's) now 1800 and 1000 students. Their has been a population shift in the bay area. Population shifts do not affect private schools the same way they affect public schools(No address boundaries for privates).
A lot of bay area publics have faded over the last 20 years and others over the last 12 because of population shifts.

A lot of really good coaches have been pushed out of coaching jobs because the school district asked them to take a pay cut, or just wouldn't give them a job.

The top coaches go to JR College because it just pays more and the bay area has the highest housing prices in the nation.

Skyline of Oakland was a power in the Nor Cal until the late 1990's Now Coach Beam is at Laney jr College. Coach Calcagno was at San Leandro from the late 90's to mid 2000's he is now the head coach at Chabot, both great coaches that decided they wanted a better quality of life and public schools in the bay could not supply it.

Encinal had some great teams before Tenorio stepped down, think they would have been a real d3 contender if he stayed this season. Left because they wouldn't give him a teaching job.

CCS powers like Oak Grove are not the same as they were in 1994

Los Gatos is still doing well(Semi Private School), Palo Alto(State Champs) didn't even make the playoffs this season

Even when the NCS has good big public schools, they break on the rock that is De La Salle

Clayton Valley is a charter school not sure if they can be called public anymore,

Concord and Campolindo solid public school programs

California High and Monte Vista had two great teams in the last 7 years that lost to sparta.

Pittsburg has had a lot of great teams that have lost to Sparta.

Novato was once a power, they have faded some.

Think Milpitas is the bay areas best hope for a large public, they have a lot to figure out.

just no consistency in the public school base in the bay area or public school coaching, most of the school districts are broke.There are very few young coaches in the bay area, because it is very difficult to, teach, coach and have a family.

in 2009 and 2010 something like 75 coaching positions in Alameda and Contra Costa county and there were something like 50 head coaching changes in that time.

Khan of El Cerrito is the Only head coach under 40 I can think of, that has a head coaching job he is 34ish. I can not think of one head coach under 30.

 

[mshNASTY]

Besides the reference about Folsom I think you are taking it out of context as I did the big boy comment. After all the forum is called dumb question. Cheers!
https://k12.niche.com/rankings/public-high-schools/best-overall/s/california/?utm_campaign=RankingsList&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook

 

[SPortela24]

Not a fan of them due to rivalry but Terra Nova is knocking on the door of a second CCS Championship in about 5 or 6 years.

What overshadows them is the fact that their CCS title win came at the heels of a less than stellar season. They won 5 consecutive PAL Bay Division Championships from 2008-2013 including two CCS Division III Championship game appearances in the mean time, once losing to Seaside, once beating Monterey.

From there they've had two Open division appearances, one following an undefeated season. They're playing in Division IV this time around.

Got to give credit where credit is due, they've been very good. The fact they were done after 11 games last season while SHP Represented Division III in The SBG was a travesty. SHP is better this season, they weren't last season.

 

[larry legend33]

Bayside101- you nailed it. Exactly my thoughts as well. The migration in population has been huge over the past 2 decades.

 

[Dooer]

Los Gatos a semi private school. I've never heard that one before. If by private you mean it is expensive to live in the area around the school, you are right. But there are some poorer mountain kids that also attend.

 

[bella123]

Originally posted by Dooer:
Los Gatos a semi private school. I've never heard that one before. If by private you mean it is expensive to live in the area around the school, you are right. But there are some poorer mountain kids that also attend.

They obviously put those PWT kids on some kind of semi scholarship, to offset the "kinda tuition" of a semi private!

 

[Rmbr26]

Originally posted by Dooer:
Los Gatos a semi private school. I've never heard that one before. If by private you mean it is expensive to live in the area around the school, you are right. But there are some poorer mountain kids that also attend.

I'd compare Los Gatos to Burlingame High here in the mid-peninsula which also has had excellent sports programs in recent years, although not up to par with Los Gatos football program. Burlingame HS gets the majority of students from Burlingame & Hillsborough both of which are very expensive places to live and that usually benefits the schools. I've often thought of BHS as the private public of the peninsula in recent years. Because of the parents the school is well funded in many ways and far superior to its nearby rival San Mateo - which although just a couple miles apart the schools are night & day different due to the demographics. Palo Alto another affluent public has been highly successful in recent years while some of the other close by publics such as Sequoia & Woodside it seems have been on a downward slide for years in terms of success of their athletic programs.

 

[bayside101]

There are boundary issues that Los Gatos can't reach beyond, but money isn't an issue like 90% of the other public schools, so there is a difference.
There weren't talks in the Los Gatos Saratoga unified school district of dropping all sports, like there was in the Mt Diablo unified school district 4 years ago.
Same can be said about Del Oro, Folsom, Palo Alto, and a handful of other schools. It isn't a knock, they are public schools with a boost it is a good thing. I use Los Gatos as an example because I went there.

who is ready for the Alma Mater

fair east side!

oh wait that is lean on me

 

[seansullivan]

There are plenty of public schools in the CCS in affluent areas (Gunn, Los Altos, Saratoga, Monta Vista, Homestead, Mountain View, Prospect, Lynbrook, Menlo-Atherton, Woodside come to mind) that have had a hard time maintaining any success ( or continued success) in most sports (especially football). These areas have increasingly higher rates of Asian students whose parents either a) know nothing about football or b) won't let their kids play football. There are literally thousands of engineers coming into the Peninsula and South Bay every year from India and Asia. These are some of the smartest people in all the world but they have no idea (nor should they) about Bear Bryant, Roger Staubach or Jerry Rice.

Take Saratoga, as an example. It had one of the best football programs in the country from 1970-1985. While it is still one of the top 100 or so academic high schools in the country, their football has really fallen off. They are very well coached but they simply don't have the horses to compete with the top public or WCAL schools. To make matters worse, I believe there are 3-4 starters at Bellarmine and another 1-2 at St. Francis and Mitty that should be going to Saratoga. I have heard that the Asian enrollment at Saratoga is 50% or more (at nearby Monta Vista and Lynbrook, whose teams could stand toe-to-toe with Mitty in the '80s and '70s, the Asian population is closer to 70%).

Other than to Jesuit, the Sac schools don't lose a huge load of talent to the privates. In Santa Clara County there are 4 football powers within easy driving distance (nothing is really "easy" to drive in Bay Area traffic) with St. Francis, VC, Bell and Mitty. And Los Gatos is not immune to the siphoning of talent. The starting QBs at both Mitty and Bell live in the LG boundaries (along with other starters). As far as the comment of LG providing any kind of subsidy or scholarship to any student, that must be the best kept secret in the state. I have been involved in the LG sports scene (from Little League and NJB and up) for 25+ years and have never heard a word about it.

I will go as far to say that several schools in the CCS will drop football in the next ten years. I could see these schools combining with other schools to have one football team (Homestead/Fremont, Gunn/Paly, Mt. View/Los Altos as possible examples). I have nothing on which to base this theory other than my own observations. Things simply change over time. This is still one of the greatest places in the world. The technology and lifestyle advancements are second to none and if across-the-board high school football excellence is a victim of that shift, then so be it. I have said it before, but the SFL and EBAL teams of today reminds me if the De Anza and SCVAL teams from 1965-85. Change is not necessarily bad, it's just different.

This post was edited on 12/4 7:22 AM by seansullivan

This post was edited on 12/4 7:26 AM by seansullivan

 

[robbt33]

sean, great post. This is what I've observed as well, via my bro-in-law (and wife) who went to Monte Vista in Cupertino. Just declining interest in football due to demographics changes.

 

[colhenrylives]

In CCS, the top public school athletic programs can be found in districts funded almost entirely by very high local property values. Most districts in California are financed on a per-child basis by the state. So Los Gatos, Palo Alto and Burlingame, among others, benefit greatly from their fortunate fiscal formula. It's not the only reason these schools thrive while others languish, but it's certainly a big one.

 

[HSS75]

"There are plenty of public schools in the CCS in affluent areas (Gunn, Los Altos, Saratoga, Monta Vista, Homestead, Mountain View, Prospect, Lynbrook, Menlo-Atherton, Woodside come to mind) that have had a hard time maintaining any success ( or continued success) in most sports (especially football). These areas have increasingly higher rates of Asian students whose parents either a) know nothing about football or b) won't let their kids play football. There are literally thousands of engineers coming into the Peninsula and South Bay every year from India and Asia."

Huge learning curve for these kids from India/Asia to acquaint themselves with American Football. People from Eastern Europe are migrating here as well. I believe it may take a generation or two before you can see a positive impact on the sport but maybe too late. who knows...

I'm a pubic school graduate from a affluent area mentioned above. We did not have one single person from India from my class and most of the asian kids were 2nd or 3rd generation and they played football. I never really paid attention to private schools until we decided to put our kids to a private catholic elementary school. Big difference in sports participation in private than public. Plus most of the kids play club sports, AAU, Club Baseball, Pop Warner, etc. Then you see the same kids go to a WCAL school. So most of these kids are familiar to one another when they compete. As for parents, we get to see familiar faces as well

As for public schools, it's definitely cyclical. Once in a while, a public school will score a freshman class with several amazing players and at least will compete against the best for several years.

 

[bella123]

Sean good post. Ill take a guess that some of those schoos are badminton powers in the CCS?

 

[FBAddict]

Originally posted by seansullivan:
I will go as far to say that several schools in the CCS will drop football in the next ten years. I could see these schools combining with other schools to have one football team (Homestead/Fremont, Gunn/Paly, Mt. View/Los Altos as possible examples). I have nothing on which to base this theory other than my own observations.

Great post - That is a very accurate overview of the conditions in which the Bay Area schools find themselves the 2000's. I like your idea (prognostication) for public schools. Joining together certain school programs will help share costs, combine resources and student talent to help justify continuing the those programs.

 

[2wcats]

The consolidation has already been going on since the early 90's and we just have not noticed. Jefferson Union High School District consists of Jefferson, Terra Nova, Westmoor, and Oceana. Out of these four only Terra Nova and Jefferson field football teams.

From Sean's pairings above there are three that could do this easily: Saratoga/Los Gatos, Los Altos/Mountain View, and Gunn/Paly. Each of these districts only consists of two schools and their schools are in relatively close geographic proximity.

The Fremont Union High School district is larger (Cupertino, Fremont, Homestead, Lynbrook, and Monte Vista) and would have a more difficult time accomplishing the task, but it is not beyond the realm of possibility.

 

[Cal 14]

Originally posted by awood1:
Besides DLS, I hear about Serra, Mitty, Valley Christian, Bellarmine, St. Francis, St. Ignatius, Riordan, SHC & SHP from the Bay area. Without specific knowledge, it appears that these are all private schools.

Here in the SJS we hear about Folsom, Grant, Rocklin, GB, Vacaville, etc. In the world of "big boy" football in the SJS, Jesuit and St. Mary's are generally the only parochial schools in the conversation.

On to the dumb question; Are there any good public school programs in the Bay Area? Who are they? Is it that all of the talent goes private, or are the public schools the $hits academically? What gives?

Out of the schools you mentioned, one thing that stands out in terms of routine success is coaching stability. Grant, DLS, Folsom, Del Oro, Serra, Valley Christian, and Bellarmine have had their coaches for quite some time now. I don't think that's an accident that these are some of the most successful teams in NorCal. When Oak Grove had Ed Buller, they were routinely good. Los Gatos has been the beneficiary of a couple of good coaches over a long period of time.

In any given year, there are really only a handful of CCS public schools that could step on the field with the private school powers and not get embarrassed. This year that list would include Milpitas, Los Gatos, Salinas (now, not earlier in the year), Hollister (now, not earlier in the year), Aptos, and maybe Monterey. Other than that, not so much. Those public schools that can compete vary quite a bit from year to year, unlike the private schools.

The CCS is in a unique position with the SS with regards to private schools as there are only 3 D-I all-private school leagues in the state: WCAL, Mission/Serra (depending on whether or not Gardena Serra is in the league), and the Trinity. This also points out that private schools do not automatically translate into powerhouse, otherwise Jesuit and San Joaquin Memorial would also dominate their regions.

 

[2wcats]

The other scenario is the rise of charter schools. Clayton Valley Charter High School's first school year was the 2012-2013 year. Since then they have gone 37-4. The previous 3 years they were 20-15. They would get a very good team once and a while like '03 and '08 but I do not recall them ever going on a run like the last 3 years.

 

[paul_johnson884]

I would give the majority of credit for Clayton Valleys improve to Coach Murphy. He is a very good coach

 

[2wcats]

Paul, didn't mean to imply that the charter was the only reason they have been tearing it up the last three years. Murphy does a good job and definitely gets credit for putting together a great program, but if it wasn't a charter school they would not have had 6 players transfer in this year.

My real point was the ability to attract transfers will give them a chance to avoid the one good team every couple years that they had experienced in the past. Good coaching/program will sell itself

 

[bayside101]

San Lorenzo Valley hasn't been the same since their coached retired ten years ago(Give or take) ;-(, they were a small school power for years in the CCS

Coach Cattolico was a legendary coach at Los Gatos ;-p, second winningest coach in CCS history I believe behind the Legend Benny Pierce, Saratoga. Of coarse I am biased, so don't pay this comment any attention.

I am certain of one thing if I wasn't clear Coach Cat never recruited a sole in his life, he was all about winning with what you have.

 

[observer22]

Plus, CVC becoming a charter school and all of its positives was the overriding reason that Murphy bolted from his comittment to go back to YV to take the reins at CVC.

 

[DLSPop1314]

Originally posted by mshNASTY:
When u think about it DLS has won 22-23 straight NCS championships which overshadows all NCS D1 schools when it comes to CIF bowl rankings. Your "big boys" of the sac-Joaquin can't play with them either. If u think Folsom is so great why did they lose 45-14 the last 2 years to the Spartans. Every EBAL team puts up roughly the same score every week. Palo Alto won the D1 state championship in 2010 and the 12-2 Cal High team could of probably done the same if they didn't have to play DLS twice. BTW DLS had several players on that team get big time scholarships that should have gone to Cal High (Houston Bro's, Tauatasi, etc). 2 years ago when Granite Bay won the D1 state title but they lost to Pitt that season, but Pitt obviously plays in the NCS so I believe the best D1 team from NorCal was not represented. I'd agree Sac-Joaquin public school football is awesome right now but there hardly the "big boys", they're playoff system is better and allows teams chances to bypass playing DLS

Agree 100%

Just to add that Pitt team was the NCS #9 seed

 

[Cal 14]

Originally posted by bayside101:
San Lorenzo Valley hasn't been the same since their coached retired ten years ago(Give or take) ;-(, they were a small school power for years in the CCS

I think the bigger impact on SLV was the opening of Scotts Valley High. SLV could compete well against much bigger schools before then.

 

[mshNASTY]

CIF needs a better playoff system where these teams can actually play each other. My thought is after the 10 game regular season is over to select a Nor Cal playoff bracket (open, 1, 2, 3, 4) and have 8 teams in each removing 40 teams from section playoffs, winner plays the So Cal champs for a true state championship . In the NCS, playoffs are becoming watered down as 2-8 teams are always "qualifying" for the playoffs. 16 potential games for CIF bowl teams is way to much. This way qualifying for the state playoffs is better than winning the section title and teams like Folsom and Grant don't have to Jockey for position to avoid DLS in the regional bowls. All I want to see is good competitive playoff football that pits the best against the best.

 

[Gearman]

Actually Scotts Valley opening had little to no impact on SLV. Prior to that the majority of SV kids were in the Soquel school district. Crazy as that sounds it is true. Some portions of SV bordered closer to Santa Cruz and Harbor highs but most kids were bussed to Soquel. Soquel's program took a major hit with the opening of SV. SLV had no one that I can remember that played football and was from SV; SV kids didn't (and still don't) want anything to do with SLV.

When SLV was a power program their CBED was around 1300. Now the CBED is listed as 800 but it is really closer to 700. The loss in student population is the biggest reason for the decline in the football program. Coach Morris retired 2 years ago but he was feeling the effects of the population loss in those final years.

 

[Cal 14]

Originally posted by Gearman:
Actually Scotts Valley opening had little to no impact on SLV. Prior to that the majority of SV kids were in the Soquel school district. Crazy as that sounds it is true. Some portions of SV bordered closer to Santa Cruz and Harbor highs but most kids were bussed to Soquel. Soquel's program took a major hit with the opening of SV. SLV had no one that I can remember that played football and was from SV; SV kids didn't (and still don't) want anything to do with SLV.

When SLV was a power program their CBED was around 1300. Now the CBED is listed as 800 but it is really closer to 700. The loss in student population is the biggest reason for the decline in the football program. Coach Morris retired 2 years ago but he was feeling the effects of the population loss in those final years.

Hey Gearman! Good to see you back on the board.

I had to go back and double-check the map... yep, Scotts Valley is right next to Felton. That does sound crazy that the SV kids went to Soquel.

 

[devil12]

In the most updated NCP Top 20, which isn't always correct but has to have some validity, I believe 6 or 7 of the schools were Bay Area public schools.

Nearly all of these schools have great educations and to target Campolindo specifically, it is academically ranked top 25 nationally every year, much higher then any private school mentioned in this post.

I don't think that there is any lack of power in public schools in the Bay Area.