Yellers vs. Tellers

[Norcal_Fan]

I know it's young in the basketball season, but I'm curious to hear about Coaches that are yellers vs. coach that are tellers (those that don't yell).

Back in the dark ages when I played, it wasn't uncustomary for coaches to rip into players that weren't performing to level. Turnovers, lack of hustle, or a little extra motivation. Many of my friends from other teams had the same experience. I think we turned out okay...

Now a days, you read time and time again, coaches getting canned, in trouble, reprimanded for being loud at their players. I see this more on the girls side than anything. Not much has changed on the boys side...many coaches are still loud, motivating, and holding players accountable. On the girls side, if a coach yells at a player, the AD's phone is rining off the hook or the coach is getting a call. What drives me nuts is that more often that not, the parents that are making a stink about it are the ones that have NEVER played competitive basketball (or sports) in their life.

Now I know some coaches take it too far, cussing at players and telling them they're crap, belittling them and while I don't agree with this form of motivation (like I said, this is an old school approach), it's still a part of life long lessons. I was talking with someone today about some of the most successful coaches at the high school and college level and they're not just sit on the sidlines and be passive. Some do and are very successful. I'm just curious to hear some of your opinions on the matter. Thanks and hope you're enjoying the season so far!

 

[ClayK]

There's a saying among basketball coaches: Tell a boy he's terrible, and he'll do anything to prove you wrong; tell a girl she's terrible, and she believes you.

Of course that's not true for every boy or every girl, but a coach has to understand the emotional impact of his words and actions.

It's also important to understand who you are – I was never really a yeller, because that's not my personality. If I tried to yell more, even if I thought it was the right tactic, I wouldn't be very good at it, and the girls would notice that I really wasn't being true to myself. Conversely, someone who is emotional and communicates at that level can be very effective, as long as there is an underlying sense that the coach cares about the players outside of their performance on the court.

And granted, times change. What would've worked 20 or 30 years ago is no longer acceptable. But if you saw the headline about USA Gymnastics and the abuse that is gone on for over 20 years, a lot of that comes from accepting what the coach says and does without question. I think I would rather err on the side of trust and communication rather than on the side of fear and intimidation.

 

[personalogic]

I know it's young in the basketball season, but I'm curious to hear about Coaches that are yellers vs. coach that are tellers (those that don't yell).

Back in the dark ages when I played, it wasn't uncustomary for coaches to rip into players that weren't performing to level. Turnovers, lack of hustle, or a little extra motivation. Many of my friends from other teams had the same experience. I think we turned out okay...

Now a days, you read time and time again, coaches getting canned, in trouble, reprimanded for being loud at their players. I see this more on the girls side than anything. Not much has changed on the boys side...many coaches are still loud, motivating, and holding players accountable. On the girls side, if a coach yells at a player, the AD's phone is rining off the hook or the coach is getting a call. What drives me nuts is that more often that not, the parents that are making a stink about it are the ones that have NEVER played competitive basketball (or sports) in their life.

Now I know some coaches take it too far, cussing at players and telling them they're crap, belittling them and while I don't agree with this form of motivation (like I said, this is an old school approach), it's still a part of life long lessons. I was talking with someone today about some of the most successful coaches at the high school and college level and they're not just sit on the sidlines and be passive. Some do and are very successful. I'm just curious to hear some of your opinions on the matter. Thanks and hope you're enjoying the season so far!

"Yelling" in the sense of how loudly you are communicating is obviously not the issue. The difference is between coaches who try to inspire versus those who try to intimidate. Few people will object to the coach who bellows "pick it up", or approve the coach who whispers "you run like a girl and you're embarrassing the whole team".

The intimidation model stems from a lot of things. Drill sergeant tactics designed to ensure obedience in the face of attack. Placing short term performance ahead of long term development, or the needs of players. Coaches lacking self-confidence and loving power too much. Coaches who learned the game groveling at the feet of other intimidators. Sheer ignorance.

But it's not old school versus new school. It's strong coaches with good character and devotion to their players versus weak coaches with a taste for abuse. And no one who suffers through a weak coach turns out ok. Or at least never fully recovers from the abuse. The abused become abusers, or apologists for abusers, and so the intimidation model survives to claim more victims.

 

[Paytc]

"Yelling" in the sense of how loudly you are communicating is obviously not the issue. The difference is between coaches who try to inspire versus those who try to intimidate. Few people will object to the coach who bellows "pick it up", or approve the coach who whispers "you run like a girl and you're embarrassing the whole team".

The intimidation model stems from a lot of things. Drill sergeant tactics designed to ensure obedience in the face of attack. Placing short term performance ahead of long term development, or the needs of players. Coaches lacking self-confidence and loving power too much. Coaches who learned the game groveling at the feet of other intimidators. Sheer ignorance.

But it's not old school versus new school. It's strong coaches with good character and devotion to their players versus weak coaches with a taste for abuse. And no one who suffers through a weak coach turns out ok. Or at least never fully recovers from the abuse. The abused become abusers, or apologists for abusers, and so the intimidation model survives to claim more victims.

personalogic and Clay both excellent points. Glad you shared them because I think many can gain from reading your perspectives. Will many change because of them depends on how deep and developed their ego disease has progressed.

Children's confidence, health, and well being over adult ego and insecurities.

 

[Scoutus32]

personalogic and Clay both excellent points. Glad you shared them because I think many can gain from reading your perspectives. Will many change because of them depends on how deep and developed their ego disease has progressed.

Children's confidence, health, and well being over adult ego and insecurities.

Good thoughts Pay. Is it now time to change the style and person in charge at C-let? The talent seems to be in place next season to make a legitimate run at winning open. Knowing many of those parents well from travel ball the frustration level is exploding.

 

[Norcal_Fan]

Parent's like that will never be happy. I don't know about the inner workings at CLet but winning NCS, making the open division every year is a great feat. Travel ball parents need to understand the difference between HS and travelball and just keep quiet. Half the parents have NO clue about hoops, never played, and don't know what it takes to be an elite level player and/or coach. Coach Leslie, on paper, has done a great job with his program.

 

[OnBall8]

Kelly Sopak would fit in well there...

 

[Scoutus32]

Kelly Sopak would fit in well there...

Agree. And the parents want him also. For MM's sake I hope that does not happen.

 

[OnBall8]

In reality if he wants to be mentioned in the same breathe as Doc and Sue, this would be the leap to make. He's done extremely well at MM but may have hit his ceiling with Sabrina.. at C-let he could have teams that good consistently..

 

[Scoutus32]

Parent's like that will never be happy. I don't know about the inner workings at CLet but winning NCS, making the open division every year is a great feat. Travel ball parents need to understand the difference between HS and travelball and just keep quiet. Half the parents have NO clue about hoops, never played, and don't know what it takes to be an elite level player and/or coach. Coach Leslie, on paper, has done a great job with his program.

Good points, but does not apply as much to these parents. Many played and at a high level beyond HS.

 

[ClayK]

There is a huge difference between playing at a high level and coaching girls' high school basketball ... the two skill sets overlap only coincidentally.

It starts with this old saying: A good coach is smart enough to understand the game and dumb enough to think it's important. The Xs and Os of basketball are a long way from quantum mechanics -- pretty much any system will work if believed in and properly taught. High school coaching, in fact, is much more about teaching than basketball, and much more about leadership than being good after timeouts.

Obviously, some very good players are very good high school coaches, but they had to learn things along the way that aren't easily seen unless you're at practice every day and dealing with teenage girls on a regular basis.

I think it's pretty hard to criticize Elgin Leslie. He's won a lot of games, dominated his league, kept the talent pipeline flowing and has the program in position to remain one of Northern California's best for some time to come. Are there people who could do better? Most likely, but that's true of everyone at every job. And then the question is whether the administration could locate and hire one of those people who might do better.

So Carondelet lost by one point in a postseason game against a quality opponent -- that's hardly a firing offense. One-point games, as every statistical metric proves, are essentially decided by luck, not players' or coaches' abilities. The clock had to stop at some point, and when it did, Cardinal Newman was ahead.

My guess is that unhappy Carondelet parents will remain unhappy no matter who the coach is next year, and those who understand something about the reality of high school sports will be happy their daughters are in a quality program run by a coach who may not be perfect, but is as good as they have any right to expect.

 

[jazzpt55]

Yelling and Telling only one small piece of the puzzle...

The Puzzle....

Coaching close games in the last two minutes
Coaching big games in the playoffs
Coaching at the TOC or equivalent
Coaching talent
Coaching without talent
Coaching primaDonnas
Coaching with 7 players or less
Coaching Xs and Os
Developing the talent pipeline
Coaching motivation
Marketing your team
Coaching your teams parents
Coaching your administration
Funding your teams travel and national tournaments
Managing a Nike Team
Coaching a team that lacks motivation
Managing your AAU relationships
Managing your NCAA relationships
Recruiting
Coaching pure athletes with no basketball skills
Training conditioning
Training athletic performance
Coaching nutrition
Coaching teams with injuries
Coaching teams with 12 talented players
Coaching teams with one McDonald's All American and 11 talent challenged players
Coaching when your up by 50 in the last 10 minutes
Coaching when your down by 50 in the last 10 minutes
Scheduling for the next year
Coaching on a zero budget
Coaching when your one win away from making the Open Division....and you would rather win a state division title
Coaching when racism occurs on your team
Coaching when your team is mentally fragile
Coaching teams that can't stay off social media
Coaching practice
Coaching downtime
Developing off season programs
Managing a team with two superstars
Coaching mental toughness
Coaching when a personal relationship exist with the refs

 

[ClayK]

All that for $1,800 -- or about 25 cents an hour.

 

[OnBall8]

All that for $1,800 -- or about 25 cents an hour.

I bet you guys would get more than $1,800 at C-let...

 

[ClayK]

I forgot it was a private school ... maybe $3,500 max.

 

[Paytc]

Good thoughts Pay. Is it now time to change the style and person in charge at C-let? The talent seems to be in place next season to make a legitimate run at winning open. Knowing many of those parents well from travel ball the frustration level is exploding.

Well I think most people who know me and even those who think they know me can agree I'm not afraid to speak the truth as I see it, say what's on my mind, or question authority. I would not expect Clay or any other coach or opposing school's coach to say anything that's not PC.

That said, the way I came up, you speak up when you think you should, but at the same time you make the best out of a situation before complaining about it. Elgin Leslie is the Carondelet coach. Like every coach he is very good in some areas and could spend time improving others. Most successful coaches have great support around them. From assistant coaches to quality players. Carondelet will continue to reach the same level of success it has under both Margaret and Elgin just as long as it continues to attract quality players. If Carondelet players are better and have more talent,Size, speed, and/or athletism than those in their league and NCS, expect the same results. If Carondelet is to be able to take the next step, the standards, goals, and expectations have to be raised. They can't be satisfied with just beating teams they clearly have the advantage over. And while they are beating those teams not use the time to develop and improve individual players and weak areas of their team. That improvement and greater balance of ability will enable Carondelet to increase their odds against so call better teams IMO.

A good part of Carondelet's problem in terms of pushing to that next level is not all on the coaches. In the short time I have been around the program I have noticed a selfish and self centered culture that lacks the team unity needed to win a 1 point game. If the concern is who is better than who, or who has to lead the team in scoring or playing time, or priority players talking or looking down on other players, it won't matter who the coach is it will be an uphill battle to achieve more than the status quo. I've grown to get to know and like Elgin.

I think a change in"team" culture, less ego, and more team unity, would make Elgin's and/or any other coach's job a lot more successful and enjoyable at Carondelet. But Leadership could set the environment that wouldn't except settling for less.

 

[OnBall8]

I forgot it was a private school ... maybe $3,500 max.

hey thats a 100% bump in salary.. that would cause anyone to at least take a look

 

[OnBall8]

If Carondelet players are better and have more talent, speed, and/or athletism than those in their league and NCS, expect the same results. If Carondelet is to be able to take the next step the standards, goals, and expectations have to be raised. They can't be satisfied with just beating teams they clearly have the advantage over. And while they are beating those teams not use the time to develop and improve individual players and weak areas of their team.

I always wished there was a way that C-Let and DLS could somehow join the WCAL. That would really add to the already competitive league in all sports. Damn bay area and its traffic makes that a logistical nightmare though (although it does work for the city teams). You could even throw BOD in there too. Now that would be fun.

 

[Scoutus32]

I think it's pretty hard to criticize Elgin Leslie. He's won a lot of games, dominated his league, kept the talent pipeline flowing and has the program in position to remain one of Northern California's best for some time to come. Are there people who could do better? Most likely, but that's true of everyone at every job. And then the question is whether the administration could locate and hire one of those people who might do better.
.

You are a very nice guy, Clay. I think we both know with the right coach, wink, wink, that program could turn into what DLS has turned into on the football side. It almost happened 10 months ago too. It would almost be unfair for the rest of Nor Cal

 

[Paytc]

You are a very nice guy, Clay. I think we both know with the right coach, wink, wink, that program could turn into what DLS has turned into on the football side. It almost happened 10 months ago too. It would almost be unfair for the rest of Nor Cal

There is no doubt Carondelet should be aiming at a higher target. But I think even the school is comfortable dominating league and winning NCS. And no doubt the right coach could turn the school into a powerhouse. Since Elgin is the coach I'm hoping Elgin will turn into that right coach. Perhaps it will just take him longer than some others? But again the expectations and standards have to be raised. If Elgin and everyone else is fine with consistently winning league easily, and a 85% shot at winning NCS nothing will change. Why would Clay or any coach outside of Carondelet want Carondelet to get the so call right coach and start dominating like DLS football?

 

[Paytc]

I always wished there was a way that C-Let and DLS could somehow join the WCAL. That would really add to the already competitive league in all sports. Damn bay area and its traffic makes that a logistical nightmare though (although it does work for the city teams). You could even throw BOD in there too. Now that would be fun.

The only problem with that is unless the goal was improvement and never settling for less than aiming higher, Carondelet might have to lower their standards further and accept losing a bit more often if the challenge was greater. Not sure that would go over well if there is unhappiness when winning league and NCS. But perhaps the culture, standards, and expectations would be raised if they were in a more competitive league? And/or if they start losing more often.

 

[Scoutus32]

There is no doubt Carondelet should be aiming at a higher target. But I think even the school is comfortable dominating league and winning NCS. And no doubt the right coach could turn the school into a powerhouse. Since Elgin is the coach I'm hoping Elgin will turn into that right coach. Perhaps it will just take him longer than some others? But again the expectations and standards have to be raised. If Elgin and everyone else is fine with consistently winning league easily, and a 85% shot at winning NCS nothing will change. Why would Clay or any coach outside of Carondelet want Carondelet to get the so call right coach and start dominating like DLS football?

No one from the outside wants it to happen Pay. It's a fairly obvious hire if the school wants to get serious about having a second to none program. The right candidate even wanted the job per several of your parents.

 

[Paytc]

No one from the outside wants it to happen Pay. It's a fairly obvious hire if the school wants to get serious about having a second to none program. The right candidate even wanted the job per several of your parents.

The school made the selection. And if they are in approval of the way things are running under this or any coach they will stick with them. If the school expects or wants more then they will demand it out of the present coach or make a change. Maybe they've been already demanding or expecting more? I doubt it. My guess is the school is content with dominating league and NCS championships. If so their most likely very pleased with the job of the present coaching staff. Many may feel a bit down at the way the season ended and it was a bit disappointing to say the least. The coaching staff and/or the players could have done things to win a 1 point game. Neither did. So the results fall on both parties. Just as when the team wins each take credit.

 

[jaymel911]

You are a very nice guy, Clay. I think we both know with the right coach, wink, wink, that program could turn into what DLS has turned into on the football side. It almost happened 10 months ago too. It would almost be unfair for the rest of Nor Cal

Who are we wink winking about?

 

[ClayK]

One of the key points in this discussion is the role of the administration -- what people often don't see is that having an elite, state-championship level program in any sport requires a commitment from the administration as well, and a willingness for that administration to take on more work. And high school administrators are already incredibly overworked (in part because outsiders don't recognize the importance of leadership and management in an organization and insist that schools hire teachers rather than administrators who would make the existing teachers better) so taking on more of a load simply doesn't make sense. If administrators spend more time on basketball or baseball or cheer, then they are spending less time on the rest of the school.

And really, what difference is there, to the school, between having a league and section champion and a state champion? And the effort involved from everyone to make that leap is not insignificant.

 

[Scoutus32]

One of the key points in this discussion is the role of the administration -- what people often don't see is that having an elite, state-championship level program in any sport requires a commitment from the administration as well, and a willingness for that administration to take on more work. And high school administrators are already incredibly overworked (in part because outsiders don't recognize the importance of leadership and management in an organization and insist that schools hire teachers rather than administrators who would make the existing teachers better) so taking on more of a load simply doesn't make sense. If administrators spend more time on basketball or baseball or cheer, then they are spending less time on the rest of the school.

And really, what difference is there, to the school, between having a league and section champion and a state champion? And the effort involved from everyone to make that leap is not insignificant.

Well said and likely the reason the Admin is ok with the current status quo. My only point was with the right hire this program could be a Top 10 National power year in and year out.

 

[Paytc]

Well said and likely the reason the Admin is ok with the current status quo. My only point was with the right hire this program could be a Top 10 National power year in and year out.

Scoutus32,

Both you and Clay are right up to a point. Where I disagree with Clay (and I could be wrong) is it's not that difficult to turn Carondelet into a dominant power because everything is in place. Just need a small tweak and Admin and coaching staff on the same page so the support is there. If the team wasn't already on the doorstep I'd agree it might be a bit more difficult.

Where you are not necessarily wrong but reaching is thinking a school that has only one 1 state championship ( that I'm aware of) in 50 years is gonna all of a sudden just over night raise the standards and expectations. I truly think the school is content with the consistent marginal (great to some depending on your viewpoint, beliefs, and expectation) level of success the program has had consistently for the past 30 years. There are a lot of programs that would be thrilled to have the so call "marginal" success Carondelet has enjoyed consistently the past 30 years.

But I agree the aim should be the top of the highest point. Why aim lower than your capable of reaching?

 

[OnBall8]

Paytc, for someone who toots their own horn for being so outspoken and forthright, you are incredibly passively aggressive..

 

[Scoutus32]

>> Where I disagree with Clay (and I could be wrong) is it's not that difficult to turn Carondelet into a dominant power because everything is in place. Just need a small tweak and Admin and coaching staff on the same page so the support is there. If the team wasn't already on the doorstep I'd agree it might be a bit more difficult.<<

Exactly correct. Look at all the talent which shows up without recruiting, or a feeder AAU program. Can you imagine?!?!? Passing on BB when MG left was a mistake.

 

[Paytc]

Paytc, for someone who toots their own horn for being so outspoken and forthright, you are incredibly passively aggressive..

I actually have my focus on projects and fish much larger than girls basketball and Carondelet's basketball program. I just chime in with the discussions that peak my interest. And I share an opinion from time to time during my down time.