Hey... the Open Divison has some great matchups... But Norcal D1-D3 is filled with byes and medicore teams.. DLS or Sheldon will represent us in D1... Sac High D2.... Campolindo/Drake D3.. Their will be lopsided games though out playoffs....Should of been 4 team Open ... BOD Folsom Monte Vista Serra... Open really needs to be revamped..Not enough quality teams in the North..
Any one thinks Open Divison is Killing the North?
- Thread starter ball of fame
- Start date
I kinda agree but I like the idea of the Open, it just needs some refining.
4 teams in the Open will have their season ended on Friday. For all their hard work and domination of the CA basketball scene this is how they are rewarded.
I think they should shorten the playoffs by eliminating teams that should never be in the mix in the first place, then every school plays their own division and then the Open should take place with the Top ranked team in the North vs the top ranked team in the south, like they do in football.
which stirs up controversy by how will the top team be determined but i think thats better than what we got now.
4 teams in the Open will have their season ended on Friday. For all their hard work and domination of the CA basketball scene this is how they are rewarded.
I think they should shorten the playoffs by eliminating teams that should never be in the mix in the first place, then every school plays their own division and then the Open should take place with the Top ranked team in the North vs the top ranked team in the south, like they do in football.
which stirs up controversy by how will the top team be determined but i think thats better than what we got now.
ball of fame- I get what you are saying. Its a tough call. I would have liked to see EC and St Francis stay down. I mean EC would be a legit D2 state champ type team. I'm not saying they can't make some noise in the open either. But the same can be said for the south too. Holy cow. Bishop Monty, Mater Dei, Etiwanda, Fairfax, etc.. All of a sudden you have Centennial Corona in D1 as #1 seed who is a very good team but I don't think matches up well with DLS. Monte Vista took it to them last year and a disciplined team will cause them fits.
What it hurts is the Norcal division itself. Some of these games are going to be ugly at local level. I still think the best teams will rep the North well in the state finals.
I was looking through D4 and Marantha looks loaded. Tyler Dorsey transfer there as did Trevor Stanbeck. Both were on diff state champ teams in 2014. (Bosco and Chaminade) Whoever it is in the north could have a tough time with this sort of talent.
My picks North.
Open - BOD
D1- DLS
D2- Mitty
D3- Campo
D4- Marin Catholic
D5 Stuart Hall
What it hurts is the Norcal division itself. Some of these games are going to be ugly at local level. I still think the best teams will rep the North well in the state finals.
I was looking through D4 and Marantha looks loaded. Tyler Dorsey transfer there as did Trevor Stanbeck. Both were on diff state champ teams in 2014. (Bosco and Chaminade) Whoever it is in the north could have a tough time with this sort of talent.
My picks North.
Open - BOD
D1- DLS
D2- Mitty
D3- Campo
D4- Marin Catholic
D5 Stuart Hall
@ball, i think you and many feel that way particularly this year and last year that O'Dowd is head and shoulders above the next team in the north and most would have no problem anointing them the Open representative from the North vs. the South.
Because we would love to see our North teams have the best shot against likely favored South teams in D1 through D5. I agree Folsom, El Cerrito, Moreau Catholic would be nice a more competitive game in D1, D2, and D3.
I dont have any issues with pulling the best into Open, If you have a top 8 team, regardless of division, you should play in Open. Dont sell yourself short by settling for lower competition.
Because we would love to see our North teams have the best shot against likely favored South teams in D1 through D5. I agree Folsom, El Cerrito, Moreau Catholic would be nice a more competitive game in D1, D2, and D3.
I dont have any issues with pulling the best into Open, If you have a top 8 team, regardless of division, you should play in Open. Dont sell yourself short by settling for lower competition.
I like what someone suggested last year. Have everyone play in their school size division for state and then have all the division champs play in one last tournament to determine the overall state champion. One way to facilitate this would be to only allow section champions to move on to state so there would not be too many games. I know that some years the best 4 teams might all be in one division in one section and think that is what the open division is trying to account for but it makes sense to me to first play in ones school size division. Or do what Indiana use to do and have one giant state play-off system where school size does not matter. Don't know what the best solution is, someone is always going to end up unhappy.
This years O'Dowd team is better then anyone, no doubt about that but I feel that Monte Vista would have beat them last year and I am pretty confident about that. If nothing else, they would have been out coached hands down and if you have watched them over the years, the only coach in California that has that kind of talent and are as poorly coached as O'Dowd is Gary McKnight's Mater Dei teams. So many similarities in their programs (with the exception of the Championships Mater Dei has won) including a dominate win last year against this poorly coach Dragons team in last year in the state finals. Thank goodness for assistant coaches, because they carry both of these programs and if you think I am joking, wait until both of these teams show up at Cal, you will see what I am talking about.
Norcalscout- Totally agree with you. MV last year was as fine of a HS team that I've seen in a long, long time. They put on a clinic for the ages against Centennial Corona. I've been to virtually every state championship the last 20+ years and I was just in awe. Not only did they have players but they had kids who bought in and had superior coaching.
MD and ODOWD get more talent each year than most schools get in a lifetime. The coaching is comical at times. More so with mater dei though.
Sierra Canyon is in D5. Omg... start the running clock now.
MD and ODOWD get more talent each year than most schools get in a lifetime. The coaching is comical at times. More so with mater dei though.
Sierra Canyon is in D5. Omg... start the running clock now.
Scout, I agree with most of what you said. I know what point you are making about the assistants really helping the head coach. BUT as someone who has done both, I see the jobs as completely different animals. The head coach is responsible for running the entire game, which includes dealing with the refs, substituting, calling both O and D as well as dealing with his kids on the floor. The good assistants will give the head coach suggestions which the head guy determines if that is the direction HE wants to go.
Most good staffs have defined areas of involvement but final decision lies with the head coach. Assistants make suggestions. Head coaches make DECISIONS.
Most good staffs have defined areas of involvement but final decision lies with the head coach. Assistants make suggestions. Head coaches make DECISIONS.
NorCalScout I want to caution you about your comments. I think you are being very disrespectful to Coach Lou Richie. He certainly has outstanding assisstants at O'Dowd, but name one great program at any level that does not have the same. I am around that program a lot, in both practices and games. Coach Richie is a bright basketball mind, and a great teacher of the game. He has done a great job of getting talented players with large egos to play the right way, while simultaneously getting role players to feel they are a big part of the team success, and having them ready to step up and make big plays, as they inevitably have to during a grueling season. Having assisstants who could all be head coaches is not a weakness, but in fact a strength. You seem to know basketball, and I hope you don't believe that Coach Richie or Coach McKnight have lilttle or nothing to do with their team's success.
Nate The Great you articulated the differrences perfectly! I will say some are meant to be head coaches, while others are better suited to be assistants. Neither position is easy. In fact, I often complain that most critics have no idea how to be either effectively, and understimate how challenging both roles can be, to do well.
Defender, thank you for your response and I do appreciate your opinion, since you seems to be close to the situation. I watch the game from a different position, as I was a player at both the high school and college level, I was a coach at the high school level and I refereed at both the high school and junior college levels. I have interacted with both of the coaches I have mentioned above and I seen up close and personal how these programs are run. Just in the Open & D1 divisions, here are a list of some well respected programs without a great assistant coaches, in my eyes/opinion. El Cerrito, Moreau Catholic, De La Salle (once Sullivan left), San Ramon & Freedom. Frank Night, Michael Booker & Frank Allocco have done some of their best coaching of their careers and mainly doing it with little to no help what so ever. Brian Botteen as new and up and coming coach has grown so much since the early part of the season until now and almost all by himself. Yes, he has a very talented team but like you said Defender, making sure everyone is on the same page and buying in is a job in itself.
So when Lou Richie was an assistant at Odowd and they won state, he couldn't coach.
When Odowd got to the state title game last year he couldn't coach.
This year his team is ranked #1 going into state playoffs and he still cant coach.
Oh yeah, kids at Odowd have good grades and move on to play at four year programs, definitely not the coach.
Sounds as if unless Richie goes undefeated and wins games by 40pts he needs to do better. Coaching high school is more than play calling. You can always second guess or criticize from the stands. If it was easy, everyone would coach. Oh yeah, they do and its called AAU. Hopefully some of you will apply for coaching openings and schedule some games vs Odowd and see how well you fare. Happy hunting!
When Odowd got to the state title game last year he couldn't coach.
This year his team is ranked #1 going into state playoffs and he still cant coach.
Oh yeah, kids at Odowd have good grades and move on to play at four year programs, definitely not the coach.
Sounds as if unless Richie goes undefeated and wins games by 40pts he needs to do better. Coaching high school is more than play calling. You can always second guess or criticize from the stands. If it was easy, everyone would coach. Oh yeah, they do and its called AAU. Hopefully some of you will apply for coaching openings and schedule some games vs Odowd and see how well you fare. Happy hunting!
NorCalScout I can appreciate your perspective. I played high school and juco hoop and have coached boys and girls from middle school to varsity, as well as juco men and women. I have not worn the officials hat, which is another beast that most would be critical of, but have no clue the technique that has to be mastered to become a craftsmen at the art. I think there could be things to criticize about all coaches, including the greats. I just feel too many are too critical, and don't highlight the successes of some coaches, as quickly as they underscore the shortcomings. The coaches you listed are all great in their own right, in doing things their own way, but I think Coach Richie is right there with any of them. I don't believe any old body could do as well. I also don't think O'Dowd has a track record of hiring bad coaches.
Lou Richie is a class act. He played under legendary Dragon coach, Mike Phelps, who was not too shabby with 800+ career wins. He's an '89 alum, longtime assistant and community leader. Comparing BOD and MD is unfair as BOD is an urban school and MD is located in the OC and surpasses any high school (not called an Academy or Prep school) with the talent they have brought in for 25+ years.
Pass first I agree. how can a team like Sierra canyon ranked. # 3 in state and #13 nationally not be in the open. Their resume is ridiculous. They go 3-1 at city of palms , win max preps with victory over Pebblebrook. Wins over Dematha and Corona del sol among others. Only lost by 4 to Oak Hill. Feel sorry for Stuart Hall.
But the reason why is the south is a little brighter than the north brass. THEY DON'.t always put the best teams in the open. They Leave some strength in all divisions. A few years ago the north put its best D1, 2,3 4 and I believe 5 in open while south put like 7 d1 teams and won other. they ran through state games.
But the reason why is the south is a little brighter than the north brass. THEY DON'.t always put the best teams in the open. They Leave some strength in all divisions. A few years ago the north put its best D1, 2,3 4 and I believe 5 in open while south put like 7 d1 teams and won other. they ran through state games.
Every year (myself included) we seem to write off a lot of north teams before the whistle is blown. I'm not saying we will prevail in some of these games that look lopsided on paper but year in and out we do better than most of us would believe. Its amazing what coaching and execution can do at this level. Last year Drake played a very good game against a much more talented Chaminade team. Sure they didn't win but it was exciting for a long time. Newman led a loaded Pacific Hills team late in the 4th before losing. MV beat Centennial and on paper should have lost. What I'm saying is don't automatically assume that we are beaten before the ball is tossed. I fall victim to this as well.
I would not want to play the likes of DLS, MV, Campo, or even Marin Catholic for that matter. They beat the #1 team in CA this year. On any given day......
I would not want to play the likes of DLS, MV, Campo, or even Marin Catholic for that matter. They beat the #1 team in CA this year. On any given day......
Scout & Nate The Great, you both make excellent points. I agree with Scout on the two coaches mentioned but I think Defender also makes a great point, in that your words were a little brutal but you got your point across and I think most of know what you meant. You were called all about which really good programs don't have great assistants and after thinking about it, you hit the nail on the head. De La Salle's staff to me in my opinion is a circus and a side show. I sat right behind the scorers table (1st row) in the North Coast game against Monte Vista & each and everyone of the 5 or 6 assistants (some even sitting behind the bench) were up and down all night. It was an absolute joke and throughout the game, each ref came over to tell Allocco to keep his assistants down. On the Monte Vista side, there is one Chief and a few Indians and everyone is under control and not once did I see any of there assistants get up to complain or to yell instructions, not once. Allocco, you need Sullivan back on your staff, there is to much chaos on your bench and with the team you have returning, you need someone that knows whats going on, cause there is a small circus going on behind you while you are coaching. I will say the Bishop O'Dowd bench is very much like the Monte Vista bench, where everyone knows what there duties are and I give Ritchie credit for that and he may have his short comings but he does know how to hire talent around him.
I noticed Alloco's top assistant was gone? What happened to him. He was there forever. Don't put any of our coaches in the same sentence as the jolly old st nick that they call Mcknight from Mater Dei. That aint' cool.
Purely by rankings one could conclude that money and politics rule the behind the scene decisions . My point about who is chosen and who plays who in the south.
Look at open first round matchups with state rank attached.
#1 vs # 24
# 5 vs #35
# 8 vs #17
# 7 vs 9
Look what numbers didn't make the open. 3,4 ,6,11,12,13,26,28,29,34. All with better rankings.
Again Sierra canyon with a win over 32-1 state champ corona del sol is the biggest head scratcher
Look at open first round matchups with state rank attached.
#1 vs # 24
# 5 vs #35
# 8 vs #17
# 7 vs 9
Look what numbers didn't make the open. 3,4 ,6,11,12,13,26,28,29,34. All with better rankings.
Again Sierra canyon with a win over 32-1 state champ corona del sol is the biggest head scratcher
No disrespect to any posters on this post but how could anyone think that Odowd will be beat by these teams ?? Lou has done a great job since he took over the helm. And if you know anything about Ivan Rabb you know that when big games are played he is focused big time. Paris Austin is one of the better guards on the west coast and the ultimate team leader. The progression of Isiah has been remarkable. His role players and experienced and contribute when needed. I thought the loss of Farley would be huge but they have held steadfast. I have seen Coach Prepare for the state finals and norcals and he does it just as good or better than anyone. Modesto Christian has the size, El Cerrito has the Physical abilities to make something happen. Ivan Rabb in big games is just too much, but anything can happen. PS look at their schedule.
I think Coach Richie is getting the short end of the stick because of the loss to Mater Dei last year in the title game. I dont think it's fair to say he made no adjustments because what we saw was Rabb not getting enough touches to change the outcome of the game. The fact was Mater Dei game planned for Rabb perfectly. Paris Austin had a huge game as a result.
In addition, O'Dowd did not have the size to match up evenly vs MD. Stanley Johnson was able to have a great game because Rabb was not able to defend him. He was put on Cage. O'Dowd had no one to put on Cage. If there was Thomas on last year's squad that would have likely changed the outcome. People just read the quotes Rabb had about being frustrated about not getting the ball. The guy wanted to win. Stanley Johnson got the ball whenever he wanted and did what he wanted which was the difference.
In addition, O'Dowd did not have the size to match up evenly vs MD. Stanley Johnson was able to have a great game because Rabb was not able to defend him. He was put on Cage. O'Dowd had no one to put on Cage. If there was Thomas on last year's squad that would have likely changed the outcome. People just read the quotes Rabb had about being frustrated about not getting the ball. The guy wanted to win. Stanley Johnson got the ball whenever he wanted and did what he wanted which was the difference.
Rabb in big games is to much? Were you at the State Finals Last year against MD? I could be wrong but if I am not mistaken, he was held to 10 points, was 0-5 from the free throw line but was a beast on the boards with 16 and chipped in nicely with 3 blocked shots. Johnson for MD had 25 points, 8 assists, 9 rebopunds and 6 steals, now that is coming up big in a big game. Rabb was the Nations #1 sophomore & #1 Junior in the country and now is somewhere in the top 10 (which is amazing my any measure) overall. I have seen his game improve, no doubt about it, he can score inside and outside, he can put the ball on the floor when needed and on the defensive end, he's as good as there is but offensively, he just doesn't seem to dominate in big games against nationally ranked opponents as one would think. Lets hope this year, he is ready to dominate offensively and bring the open title back to the bay area.
Had to chime in here seeing all this nonsense about Lou Richie. If you don't think he's a good coach you either don't know what you are talking about , you just aren't very observant or you have an ax to grind. Has the program elevated under Lou. YES. Do the players develop during the course of their time at O'Dowd and during the season. YES. Does the team improve as the season goes. YES. Its is literally unbelievable that someone could consider themselves knowledgeable about the game and not understand what an excellent job Lou Richie does. Of course everyone thinks they "understand" the game right? what a joke
This post was edited on 3/11 10:11 AM by Headfake
This post was edited on 3/11 10:11 AM by Headfake
I too had to chime in but for a much different reason. Let's remember, this message board is to share information as well as each others opinions. I have learned throughout my time on here, both in football and boys and girls basketball (5 kids), that you can't take things personal and you can't really win or lose a debate on here (God knows I have tried), because everyone is giving there honest opinion. For the most part and including this post, I don't think anyone has an ax to grind or anything personal about the two coaches mentioned and as a former player and now a father of 5 high school kids that have played sports (not all at the same time), we have agreed and disagreed with decisions coaches have made over the years. It's similar to watching any high school game, parents and fans scream and yell at the officials, now they aren't trying to screw up but they see the game from a different prospective and angle then we do. I have doubted some calls by some excellent high school football & basketball coaches over the years and it's all part of the game. I think this is all part of sports and everyone is able to share there honest opinions and people can choose to agree or disagree with you.
Yes i was Norcalscout, and i saw a undefeated high school team with the best player in america, who is also one of the best players in college do a pretty good job against Odowd. They also did a pretty good job against Gordon the year before. I also saw Rabb go for 28 and 20 against Jeter and Zimmerman this year. Losses this year to Oak Hill Academy twice, and they beat Wheeler who is a Georgia State Champion that includes Jaylen Brown who many consider top 2-3 players in USA. So yes sir i would say he shows up for big games. He and his team has played against some of the best teams and players in the country, so i would say they are ready for the open.
Lou has the most talent in NorCal, but that doesn't diminish his ability to coach. You need talent to win. Good coaches with no talent still lose. One of Lou's best traits IMO is building a good team atmosphere and getting the role players to buy into their roles. He also does a good job of developing the supporting players.
And I don't see anyone beating O'Dowd in Open. Dominant team.
And I don't see anyone beating O'Dowd in Open. Dominant team.
I am just happy that SHC was able to pull Kevin Greene out of Oakland. Led us to a state title in basketball and catapulted that into a scholarship at USC and has been on the 49ers and Bengals roster. Great human being and great model for kids. Was hoping more kids from Oakland made their way onto SHC rosters instead of O'Dowds.
Interesting it was turned around in the early 80's when Tony Jackson (St. Dominic's/Sacred Heart) commuted from SF to Oakland to attend BOD and play for Coach Phelp's Dragons. Later played for then National Power DePaul and Coach Meyer.
