In an interview with a San Diego newspaper, the former Stanford star has made allegations which, if true, may shed some light on why the WNBA remains barely a niche diversion in the vast American sporting landscape. Her most damning WNBA charges involve such things as rampant lesbianism, sexual discrimination, bullying and persistent attempts to injure. Women's basketball has enough challenges as it is. Wiggins' comments are either a shocking wake-up call or, perhaps, a bit of sour grapes. Maybe both. It's tough to tell. But her tales of woe are going to be fodder for conversation for sure.
Candice Wiggins
- Thread starter colhenrylives
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Like you said, tough to tell whether its sour grapes or not.. but probably both.. What she said about low viewership and ticket sales, is just a fact. The WNBA has always had a hard time drawing viewers. I doubt that lesbianism has anything to do with that (I also doubt that her estimate of 98% is true.. but even if it is who cares), but because she says both things in the same convo people are going to try to draw the lines connecting the two. The part that sounds like sour grapes is when she said that others were jealous of because she was adamantly straight and a national figure so others wanted to hurt her.
These comments will not help bring positive light to the league, instead she just reinforces stereotypes and images that the average uneducated fan thinks they already know. Does that mean she is wrong? Of course not. And maybe the adage of "no publicity is bad publicity" holds true, or maybe (and my prediction) it will be news for a day or 2, and won't open up the conversation nationwide like might be needed, because basketball is already on the decline for young women.
These comments will not help bring positive light to the league, instead she just reinforces stereotypes and images that the average uneducated fan thinks they already know. Does that mean she is wrong? Of course not. And maybe the adage of "no publicity is bad publicity" holds true, or maybe (and my prediction) it will be news for a day or 2, and won't open up the conversation nationwide like might be needed, because basketball is already on the decline for young women.
Wiggins started out as a very promising player, but due to injuries or otherwise she didn't put together much of a professional career. A look at her stats, particularly the last two years, provides enough explanation of why she is leaving. Could be that her lack of performance as compared to her notoriety caused some resentment, not her sexual orientation. Just the "98%" comment (so there are only 2.4 straight players in the league?) shows there's more petulance than substance to her claims of mistreatment.
Regarding a lot of people being dispirited by the WNBA's success, can't argue with that. I hated it when the Monarchs folded. But I think it goes back to how the WNBA was formed and how it has operated. The only reason the NBA created it was to destroy the fledgling ABL which had a more modest, grass roots approach.
Regarding a lot of people being dispirited by the WNBA's success, can't argue with that. I hated it when the Monarchs folded. But I think it goes back to how the WNBA was formed and how it has operated. The only reason the NBA created it was to destroy the fledgling ABL which had a more modest, grass roots approach.
I posted this on RebKell:
This is very sad ... and very disappointing.
I've watched Candice Wiggins play since she was in high school, and she's always been a very good basketball player. She also played with a lot of emotion -- she wanted to win, and did what was necessary to do so.
At the same time, she incessantly complained about foul calls on her, and reports make it clear she was a big-time trash talker.
All that to say she was a very good player, but not a perfect one ...
Her father was Alan Wiggins, a major league baseball player who excelled before cocaine addiction ended his career and eventually killed him, but she went to La Jolla Country Day, a tony private school, and Stanford, an elite institution that is justifiably considered one of the best universities in the country, if not the world.
I would estimate, given her overseas earning, that Wiggins made at $2 million and likely closer to $3 million, in her professional career, and traveled around the world.
All that to say that women's basketball contributed greatly to her getting a superior education and also generated more income for her before the age of 30 than many people make in a lifetime.
And yet this is the message she chooses to deliver ...
Very sad, and very disappointing.
For the whole thread, which is pretty good, go to
http://boards.rebkell.net/viewtopic.php?t=90995&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
This is very sad ... and very disappointing.
I've watched Candice Wiggins play since she was in high school, and she's always been a very good basketball player. She also played with a lot of emotion -- she wanted to win, and did what was necessary to do so.
At the same time, she incessantly complained about foul calls on her, and reports make it clear she was a big-time trash talker.
All that to say she was a very good player, but not a perfect one ...
Her father was Alan Wiggins, a major league baseball player who excelled before cocaine addiction ended his career and eventually killed him, but she went to La Jolla Country Day, a tony private school, and Stanford, an elite institution that is justifiably considered one of the best universities in the country, if not the world.
I would estimate, given her overseas earning, that Wiggins made at $2 million and likely closer to $3 million, in her professional career, and traveled around the world.
All that to say that women's basketball contributed greatly to her getting a superior education and also generated more income for her before the age of 30 than many people make in a lifetime.
And yet this is the message she chooses to deliver ...
Very sad, and very disappointing.
For the whole thread, which is pretty good, go to
http://boards.rebkell.net/viewtopic.php?t=90995&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
We are in a different generation where that bullying was tolerable before, but the trend now is we have a hyper-sensitive population. I have a daughter myself and I would not want her to put up with that if she got into sports. People that bully have internal issues stemming from something that happened to them.
There may be some small connect the dots puzzle where Candace and her fellow Cardinal anti-bully mate Jonathan Martin blew the whistle on this matter. Stanford, a prestigious university you would think would promote the student athlete, or students for that matter, to stand up for themselves and not be bullied.
There may be some small connect the dots puzzle where Candace and her fellow Cardinal anti-bully mate Jonathan Martin blew the whistle on this matter. Stanford, a prestigious university you would think would promote the student athlete, or students for that matter, to stand up for themselves and not be bullied.
Many said similar things about Jose Canseco when he blew open steroid use in baseball.
It would be wiser to not comment forcefully until more information comes out.
Wiggins might end up being the Canseco of the WNBA
I've been around the league since its inception, and the fact that she claims it is 98% gay tends to make me question her other statements. I would say the league is probably two-thirds gay, maybe less, and the fact that Wiggins is a trash-talking player who always felt the refs were out to get her might have something to do with her feeling disrespected by teammates and opponents.
But maybe not ... maybe she was bullied for being straight, but that's not something I've heard or seen in the past. That doesn't mean it didn't happen to her, though if she makes statements that are clearly untrue, then it's hard to take what she says that seriously.
But maybe not ... maybe she was bullied for being straight, but that's not something I've heard or seen in the past. That doesn't mean it didn't happen to her, though if she makes statements that are clearly untrue, then it's hard to take what she says that seriously.
You didnt completely express what she said in your first post which makes your post suspect. She said many positive things about the WNBA
Love your last bit- you haven't heard or seen her get bullied so it might be false. That is hilarious.
Love your last bit- you haven't heard or seen her get bullied so it might be false. That is hilarious.
I don't believe I claimed, in either post, to be fully transmitting her message. I pointed out one completely incorrect statement (98% gay -- do the math) and said it made me wonder about the rest.
She might have been bullied, and those who bullied her might have done so from other motives but used her sexuality as part of the process. Or not. The 98% statement is so completely wrong, especially coming from an intelligent and educated woman, that it makes me, and others, wonder what the subtext of her interview might have been.
All in all, it's sad, strange and depressing. After all, what has gone viral is not her positive statements, as would be obvious to anyone of her intellect, but the negative ones, one of which is flatly untrue.
She might have been bullied, and those who bullied her might have done so from other motives but used her sexuality as part of the process. Or not. The 98% statement is so completely wrong, especially coming from an intelligent and educated woman, that it makes me, and others, wonder what the subtext of her interview might have been.
All in all, it's sad, strange and depressing. After all, what has gone viral is not her positive statements, as would be obvious to anyone of her intellect, but the negative ones, one of which is flatly untrue.
I did wonder about that 98 percent figure. That seems very high. However, if Clay's more conservative estimate of "probably two thirds gay" is correct, that, too, is rather stunning. And, if accurate, it would probably be one reason some parents might be less than thrilled about taking their young daughters to WNBA games. Not sure about that. But it would seem logical if the league is super-saturated with gay female athletes.
you are making the same mistake that the media is making-Focusing on her probable exaggeration. Which is odd because whetherit is 66% (a number you pulled out of thin air) or 98%, the WNBA in no way reflects the sexuality of American females. No surprise
Thatis why it is odd you continue to double down on your proclamation about her being bullied or not.
of course, you haven't heard anything yet. so there is that.
Thatis why it is odd you continue to double down on your proclamation about her being bullied or not.
of course, you haven't heard anything yet. so there is that.
I get what Candice was saying in that peer pressure plays a huge role inside of the game. I think the 98% may have been more of her exaggerating a bit. My guess is it does play a large role, and if so, non gay players may often times feel uncomfortable. Especially if two girlfriends play on your same team and there is favoritism. Or if your a girly girl and others girls are more hardcore you get the bullying, different clicks and division. I would think Candice Wiggins would have a better pulse on what is happening in the league (especially her own experience) more so than anyone outside looking in being that she is up close and personally inside of it. She definitely knows more about what's going on in the WNBA than I do.
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you realize she also has an upcoming book that talks about this.. so her motivation to make these comments (exaggerated or not) may not be as sincere as people think. Drawing attention so people want to know the rest of the story, even just her side, smart marketing move.. most of us on the outside (especially since we are mostly men on here) dont know what it is like to be behind the closed doors, or on a team with gay couples/players so we take people's word for it. And by some of the early reactions by wnba players to her statements, they seem to disagree (whether it be with her actual statements or her delivery is left to your interpretation) so I guess we will have to see if more players come out with similar experiences or say she's full of it.
Again.. this kind of speculation from outsiders, specifically men, can be dangerous
I would agree, it is very dangerous to speculate. She has her view and regardless of the % she claims the fact remains, according to her she was bullied for being different and that is wrong and something needs to be done. She has chosen to speak on it and that is all we ever ask of people who are being wronged, speak, let someone know. The timing is what the timing is and while it would have been better to know sooner, for some, better today than never.
I like the Jose Canseco comparison because as it turns out he was 100% x 100% correct.
I have covered the league from day one and know many players and coaches, as well as writers. The 67% figure is not out of thin air, but the general received wisdom.
My point about her being bullied is this: I'm not sure if she was being bullied because she was straight (more than a few straight WNBA players have said they have never been bullied because of their sexuality) or because people didn't like her for other reasons -- and then added fuel to the fire with the heterosexual angle.
So let's return to your point about Jose Canseco. You said Wiggins might be the "Canseco of the WNBA", presumably meaning that Canseco's revelations about the rampant use of illegal and banned drugs is on a a par with Wiggins' revelations about lesbians in the WNBA.
Does that mean you are equating the use of PEDs with sexual orientation? I would assume you're not putting them on the same level, as there are obvious differences. If you are not putting them on the same level, I'm guessing you mean that Wiggins will "expose" the WNBA in the same way that Canseco "exposed" baseball's PED issue.
But what is Wiggins exposing? That 98% of WNBA players are gay? That's simply wrong, and provably so. That there are many lesbians in the WNBA? No kidding -- and the sun rises in the East. That there are bullies and cliques in the WNBA? It's professional sports, of course there are bullies and cliques.
I'm unclear on what seems to be a positive take on Wiggins' attack on the WNBA. What positive thing has she done for the league, for women's basketball, for women's sports, with her statements?
My point about her being bullied is this: I'm not sure if she was being bullied because she was straight (more than a few straight WNBA players have said they have never been bullied because of their sexuality) or because people didn't like her for other reasons -- and then added fuel to the fire with the heterosexual angle.
So let's return to your point about Jose Canseco. You said Wiggins might be the "Canseco of the WNBA", presumably meaning that Canseco's revelations about the rampant use of illegal and banned drugs is on a a par with Wiggins' revelations about lesbians in the WNBA.
Does that mean you are equating the use of PEDs with sexual orientation? I would assume you're not putting them on the same level, as there are obvious differences. If you are not putting them on the same level, I'm guessing you mean that Wiggins will "expose" the WNBA in the same way that Canseco "exposed" baseball's PED issue.
But what is Wiggins exposing? That 98% of WNBA players are gay? That's simply wrong, and provably so. That there are many lesbians in the WNBA? No kidding -- and the sun rises in the East. That there are bullies and cliques in the WNBA? It's professional sports, of course there are bullies and cliques.
I'm unclear on what seems to be a positive take on Wiggins' attack on the WNBA. What positive thing has she done for the league, for women's basketball, for women's sports, with her statements?
Well said Clay, and to further prove your point of the "Canseco comparison"... PEDs were/are ILLEGAL, so whistleblowing is actually commendable, moreso because it came from an offender..
There are not as many "out" WNBA players as one may think.. I read an article that stated a very low number actually.. and while wiggins already said she said 98% just to illustrate her point, it is neither her job nor place to out anyone for their sexual preference. So while there are clearly more lesbian/bisexual players than are open about it, it is no one's right besides the individual to state that to the public. Of course no one wants the bullying part to be true, that goes without saying, but she is treading murky waters and burning many bridges
There are not as many "out" WNBA players as one may think.. I read an article that stated a very low number actually.. and while wiggins already said she said 98% just to illustrate her point, it is neither her job nor place to out anyone for their sexual preference. So while there are clearly more lesbian/bisexual players than are open about it, it is no one's right besides the individual to state that to the public. Of course no one wants the bullying part to be true, that goes without saying, but she is treading murky waters and burning many bridges
I get that.. but are we supposed to sit back and commend someone for outing others?? Its not an outrageous claim (again she already backed off the 98% somewhat), but it is not her place to say so.. And I'm not trying to take away from Jennifer Azzi for coming out as the first openly gay coach, but there are plenty of college coaches who have partners of the same sex, obviously players that play for them must know this, but it just isn't public. What if a player came out and stated it through the media, especially after a falling out? People would be outraged at a college kid for doing that
I didn't say anything about commending her. I think the way she did it was in poor taste. I was pointing out that if these claims turn out to be true and there are changes in the league and game as a whole, these two situations would have similarities.
That's a good question. I am not well versed enough on the business of the WNBA or international leagues to know.
I do think the league needs to have a niche market mindset. It seems to run as a mainstream sport, which is just isn't. But again, I could be wrong in that line of thinking.
I do think the league needs to have a niche market mindset. It seems to run as a mainstream sport, which is just isn't. But again, I could be wrong in that line of thinking.
to summarize, lets not over react and throw our uneducated opinions at Wiggins and the WNBA... that is what I stated above so ai am not sure why you are pointing this at me.
you might want to direct this at those that want to make the leap that because a player complained about officials she cant be trusted.
Jose Canseco revealed that icons like Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa were using illegal drugs to enhance their performance and make millions and millions of dollars. The end result was stricter testing and a drop (though not elimination) of PED use.
This was, presumably, an open secret in MLB but no active players had come out and said they were using PEDs.
Candice Wiggins revealed that many women in the WNBA were lesbians. This is neither illegal nor does the fact of lesbianism enhance performance -- in other words, no advantage was gained and no laws were broken. In addition, more than a handful of players had already publicly revealed their sexual orientation.
She also felt she had been bullied by lesbians because she was heterosexual, though other heterosexuals have said they did not experience that kind of bullying.
The WNBA is a niche market, though of course no one involved in the league wants to admit that publicly, and it is, like other sports' leagues, struggling to improve its position. Candice Wiggins' revelations, such as they are, are not going to level the playing field, reduce the use of illegal substances or accomplish anything other than to tarnish women's basketball and women's sports in the eyes of many.
I still don't understand why her revelations should be applauded, especially since now she says that the 98% figure was a lie, and it just felt that way to her. (I'm sure that nuance will be as widely reported as her claim ...) Bullying is not acceptable at any level (except maybe the present White House) but that's not what earned Wiggins headlines and is not nearly as damaging as the lesbian accusation, or the use of illegal drugs.
I also don't think the comparison to Canseco holds up -- it's a much different kind of revelation with much different consequences.
This was, presumably, an open secret in MLB but no active players had come out and said they were using PEDs.
Candice Wiggins revealed that many women in the WNBA were lesbians. This is neither illegal nor does the fact of lesbianism enhance performance -- in other words, no advantage was gained and no laws were broken. In addition, more than a handful of players had already publicly revealed their sexual orientation.
She also felt she had been bullied by lesbians because she was heterosexual, though other heterosexuals have said they did not experience that kind of bullying.
The WNBA is a niche market, though of course no one involved in the league wants to admit that publicly, and it is, like other sports' leagues, struggling to improve its position. Candice Wiggins' revelations, such as they are, are not going to level the playing field, reduce the use of illegal substances or accomplish anything other than to tarnish women's basketball and women's sports in the eyes of many.
I still don't understand why her revelations should be applauded, especially since now she says that the 98% figure was a lie, and it just felt that way to her. (I'm sure that nuance will be as widely reported as her claim ...) Bullying is not acceptable at any level (except maybe the present White House) but that's not what earned Wiggins headlines and is not nearly as damaging as the lesbian accusation, or the use of illegal drugs.
I also don't think the comparison to Canseco holds up -- it's a much different kind of revelation with much different consequences.
wasnt meant to be pointed at you specifically or even to combat your point.. it was however specifically pointed at paytc's very ignorant statement..
but back to the bigger picture of things.. this can't be good for the outlook of the sport from both a young teens point of view or a parents point of view with regards to choosing to pursue basketball as kids get older.
Whether 100% right or 100% wrong I think it's fair to say Candice took a chance by stepping out against what "she felt" and what "she" experienced personally. She positively gave you some information on "her experience" and what she gained from it. Every player straight or gay doesn't automatically bully or get bullied. But perhaps she did on occasion? Perhaps sometimes that bully was straight and at other times the bully was gay. Or maybe both were straight or both were gay? There are homosexual males and females, coaches, basketball & football players, owners, refs, doctors, lawyers, priest, police officers, military officers, etc... and it's not going anywhere in America. I think it is fair to say homosexual individuals have and at times still do experience discrimination. But it's also fair to say that group has a strong influence over women's basketball, entertainment, and every other field period. Perhaps that overall influence was "in Candice mind" an experience that she personally felt was a bit unjust to her? I'm not sure and am trying to understand where she is coming from.Things are not always fair in this world. I thought it was interesting that Candice had the courage right or wrong to express what she experienced. I don't personally think it was an attempt for her to try to destroy the women's game or rid the game or world of homosexuals. A game that she herself gave a lot of herself to. Despite anyone trying to say otherwise just to be politically correct and have chapped lips.
Disclaimer: I personally don't have a concern with anyone expressing their sexual, cultural, or religious beliefs in a non violent peaceful manner. Got nothing but love for all good people.
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Please point out the part of my statement that was ignorant so I can learn and not be as ignorant. What I said was true. Gay people are no more perfect than straight people. Both groups at times have affairs and both at times play favorites. And both groups can be unfair. I am not knocking anyone by trying to better understand the reason Candice spoke out before automatically condemning her.
Disclaimer: I personally don't have a concern with anyone expressing their sexual, cultural, or religious beliefs in a non violent peaceful manner. Got nothing but love for all good people.
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Cool. I didn't think you would be able to find anything legit. Because I didn't say anything that wasn't legit.
I'm not trying to be PC police, we have more than enough of that here in CA, but if you need it broken down for you then I will...
What makes you guess it plays a "large role"? What is that role that it does play? Does that apply to college basketball? Does that apply to high school basketball? Expand on that. Were you a non gay player who felt uncomfortable? Have you ever been on or around a team with two girlfriends? Was it detrimental? A problem?
This is the worst part... When you say "hardcore" do you mean butch? Do you mean openly gay? Can a girly girl be gay? Can a hardcore girl be straight? What makes you think its girly girls vs "hardcore" girls... and how do you know this is what leads to bullying, cliques (nice spelling) and division??
What makes you guess it plays a "large role"? What is that role that it does play? Does that apply to college basketball? Does that apply to high school basketball? Expand on that. Were you a non gay player who felt uncomfortable? Have you ever been on or around a team with two girlfriends? Was it detrimental? A problem?
This is the worst part... When you say "hardcore" do you mean butch? Do you mean openly gay? Can a girly girl be gay? Can a hardcore girl be straight? What makes you think its girly girls vs "hardcore" girls... and how do you know this is what leads to bullying, cliques (nice spelling) and division??
No the question you should be answering is why do you and 2 or 3 others try to unsuccessfully knock and twist everything I comment on as a problem. And no, once again I don't have a problem with anyone. Why do you search and reach for things that aren't there? What I said was what I said. How you took it was on you. And large or small role I'm on the outside looking that's why I used the word "guess" because I'm trying to understand where Candice might be coming from. Everything I said was in response to my trying to get a better understanding of why Candice spoke out. Never particularly saying that she was right or wrong. But her statement was 100 % her statement.
There are jobs out there that don't permit folks in relationships straight or gay to work in the same office or company together. I don't know the rules and guidelines of the WNBA.
If I meant hardcore to be butch I would have used or included the word butch. I don't know what openly gay is, from non openly gay. A girly girl (or soft often times less physical girl) can have whatever sexual preference they want to have. A hardcore girl can also have whatever sexual preference they want to have. And girly girl just means less aggressive. I never said anything other than those in charge allowing bullying to happen to be the cause of bullying to happen. Bullying has nothing to do with a person's sexual orientation. It has nothing to do with a person's sexual preference. And I know the so call proper spelling of clicks (cliques) as Clay had used the correct spelling recently. But not being a 100 % rule follower of rules made by less than perfect people I decided to spell clicks the way I chose to. But then again I am one who takes the liberty to go against the grain whenever I see the opportunity to peacefully do so.
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I twisted nothing, I simply asked questions allowing you to clarify what you meant, because your statements came off differently than most things I've seen you say on here, and you refused to answer those questions with any substance. As someone who has been around the women's game all of my life and know many players (mostly ex players now) and many coaches who are gay, I took offense to what you said and how you said it, so I fired back. Regardless, I guess this thread should get back on the topic of how these comments by Candice may impact the sport we love
Before we get back on topic. I haven't and don't judge any other human being based on anything to include their sexual preference. I treat them all the same. And I never unfairly judged anyone in this topic. I think I live in the same world you live in so obviously my world includes everyone from all walks of life. And I don't judge, put down, try to eliminate, hate on, or exclude anyone. On the contrary my reach and sphere of influence includes just about everyone. Straight or gay no human is perfect. And humans have the right to be straight or gay. By choice or born into it. And they can change in mid stream if they choose to do so. But people can agree or dis agree with straight or gay peoples actions. There are good and bad straight and gay people. Because we are all human.
So we can agree on both not trying to put down, hate, or eliminate anyone. And with that said, now we can get back on topic.
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nice story but the rebuke to you was your early over reaction. that was why the Canseco comparison was discussed. not PEDS. Not gays.
not that difficult to understand.
This post kills me. 98% lesbian... No wait its only 2/3rds. Who cares. With the exception maybe of women soccer at the pro level is there any other successful women's team sports? I would go to a HS girls game all day over a WNBA game. I've never gone to a WNBA game. Don't plan on it either. But for what its worth I love the HS and college games of both men and women. Hell its hard to like the NBA these days. All star weekend was awful. I've seen better dunk contest on the playground.
It's interesting that the WNBA, has been slow to make an official comment regarding Ms. Wiggins stated experience. Many players (former and current) have disputed Ms. Wiggins claim by sharing their own positive experiences.
Every league has a diverse culture. The NFL, The MLB, NBA, etc. You can find strong elements of community service, humanitarian outreach, hip hop, class, generation, pop, demographic, fashion, etc. Outsiders have also learned about the negative culture. We've learned of the bullying, bigotry, domestic violence, racism, abuse, drugs, discrimination etc. that takes place in sports. It's probably safe to say that the WNBA isn't squeaky clean. We've heard reports of domestic violence cases from a few WNBA players.
I wonder if an investigation will be made into this matter. The NBA brand is definitely anti-bullying.
Every league has a diverse culture. The NFL, The MLB, NBA, etc. You can find strong elements of community service, humanitarian outreach, hip hop, class, generation, pop, demographic, fashion, etc. Outsiders have also learned about the negative culture. We've learned of the bullying, bigotry, domestic violence, racism, abuse, drugs, discrimination etc. that takes place in sports. It's probably safe to say that the WNBA isn't squeaky clean. We've heard reports of domestic violence cases from a few WNBA players.
I wonder if an investigation will be made into this matter. The NBA brand is definitely anti-bullying.
