Coaching Vs Talent Teams

[RespectBBGame]

Some teams in the last 4 years have ton of talent. Now it time to see can these coaches real coach or was they wining from the talent.

Mitty
Sue always have great teams with not the best talent. She is a great trainer that knows how to get best out of her players. She always consistent winning by great coaching.

Pinewood

Doc
Doc is a great coach and trainer for 3 pointers. When have anyone known Pinewood not shooting well from the three point range. Doc also make great adjustment during the game. He also gets the best out of his team year in year out.

Tom
The last ten years have ton of talent come Stockton Mustangs and Lady Warriors. Last they had alot of talent and bench ran 9 deep. This year their is no bench but these are most of the player came from Stockton Mavericks. There are still 5 Mustangs on the team DeCosta, Johnson, Young sisters, and Moss. This they lost the total amount they in last four years. This due to the lack depth on the bench to run the same system. In the games the play this year have no adjustment with less talent team. The teams is the past have been very very talent.

Kelly

The past 4 year had a very talent team but like a said time in and time out he is a very smart businessman. He played less talent teams this year so people wont notes the difference in his team this year. They are still better then the average team but big drop-off this year with last year graduation. He still make adjustments during the game but not as talented.

Pico

McDonald was the star of team last year and everyone said that they would drop off the cliff. Pico made adjustments for the this and trained his players for the change. They are the one of only team in the Ca. that has four players averaging Double figures. Thats is coaching that most people that not noticing. For the first time last week they have gotten a write up in their own town by the Stockton Record. Clay is counting Brookside out D1 SJS just like other people count on them to fail this year.

In the end, some coaches can coach no matter what they are given. Some coaches need talent to come from other to win championships. But a great coach can coach teams up that are no as talented. Another good and trainer is Blythe of ESCP.

 

[jazzpt55]

Respect...you are amazing....obviously none of the coaches that get on here daily want us to comment on this....
I will but will wait a week till they have a chance to speak the truth....

 

[mkbgdns]

ah...the bromance rekindled. wait. with Jazz switching his gender preference, will there be troll babies? a wedding under the bridge? will the witnesses show up? video to be posted soon?

 

[RespectBBGame]

Mkgdns

Dont get mad because your Idol was exposed. He still a smart businessman add the Stockton Mavericks. This is a way to force all SMS players from leaving Cal Stars.

 

[jazzpt55]

So one post reply....that doesn't address the original post....let see how many we get after a week that actually address the subject....
BTW....anybody every go to that site RateYourCoach.Com to see how the
Public/customers think how you are doing.....
I have and some of the coaches you have listed are in the database....
Some interesting data...it doesn't seem to match all the national awards some of these coaches have picked up over the last few years. ...anyways see you in a week with some feedback

 

[jazzpt55]

Respect....4 days not one decent take in response to your vine....sad....why don't people want to respond...this is a great topic...anyway thanks for trying

 

[ClayK]

I was hesitant to reply because it seems that the criticism will flow to Tom, Sue and Kelly no matter what ...

I do think there are coaches who coach elite talent well, but maybe wouldn't do as well with lesser talent, and vice versa. But overall, winning games generally is equated to quality coaching, and winning games generally comes down to talent. I felt I did some of my best coaching jobs with undertalented teams that wound up with losing records but I felt we got the most out of what we had. And sometimes I felt like I let my talent down.

I will name some names again of quality coaches that I have gone against that no one has heard of: Dani Oswood at Athenian, Larry Minnich at Bay (though he did win a state title at Convent of the Sacred Heart in one of the greatest upsets ever), Erin Llewellyn at Emery, Ren Marquette now at Convent (and my apologies to the many I'm leaving out).

Now because they haven't won they're not in the discussion of great coaches, but if you're talking about taking the people and talent you're handed and getting the most out of it, these are elite coaches.

 

[jazzpt55]

Clay,
Can you list the qualities or criteria that can be used for an evaluation....
Some of mine...

Coaching close games in the last two minutes
Coaching big games in the playoffs
Coaching at the TOC or equivalent
Coaching talent
Coaching without talent
Coaching primaDonnas
Coaching with 7 players or less
Coaching Xs and Os
Developing the talent pipeline
CoachING motivation
Marketing your team
Coaching your teams parents
Coaching your administration
Funding your teams travel and national tournaments
Managing a Nike Team
Coaching a team that lacKS motivation
Managing your AAU relationships
Managing your NCAA relationships
Recruiting
Coaching pure athletes with no basketball skills
Training conditioning
Training athletic performance
Coaching nutrition
Coaching teams with injuries
Coaching teams with 12 talented players
Coaching teams with one McDonald's All American and 11 talent challenged players
Coaching when your up by 50 in the last 10 minutes
Coaching when your down by 50 in the last 10 minutes
Scheduling for the next year
Coaching on a zero budget
Coaching when your one win away from making the Open Division....and you would rather win a state division title
Coaching when racism occurs on your team
Coaching when your team is mentally fragile
Coaching teams that can't stay off social media
Coaching practice
Coaching downtime
Developing off season programs
Managing a team with two superstars
Coaching mental toughness
Coaching when a personal relationship exist with the refs

.....I am sure there are others. ..or these are not the best ones

 

[ClayK]

I wrote a book 15 years ago called "Girls Basketball: Building a Winning Program" and it directly and indirectly addressed that question. I think your list is good, but maybe a little too detailed ...

I would say job one of any high school coach in any sport is for 75% of his players or more to look back on their playing career, and all the time they put in, and say "I'm glad I did that." That's success to me ...

Getting the most out of the talent available to you is also a good measuring stick, but what's hard to see from the outside is the mental aspect of talent. Some girls are physically very gifted but perhaps don't really like the game very much, or aren't interested in getting better, and that's hard to see from the stands. (I always enjoyed coaching players with less talent who wanted to be really good (and maybe couldn't reach that level) than the gifted player who didn't care as much.)

And for me, building a program, as opposed to having a good single season, was always a goal. I also liked having the team build an identity in the community, again something that others might not feel is as important.

One thing you'll note that I don't include is in-game coaching. I think that's important in a few games a year, but really doesn't impact the experience of the players as much as many people think. I was never a particularly good in-game coach and I don't think I ever drew up a play at a timeout. We ran what we knew how to run already, and just tried to run it well.

Oh, and you can get the book for $4 on Amazon -- I don't get royalties any more so this isn't a money grab. Amazon product ASIN 1930546572

 

[Paytc]

Clay,
Can you list the qualities or criteria that can be used for an evaluation....
Some of mine...

Coaching close games in the last two minutes
Coaching big games in the playoffs
Coaching at the TOC or equivalent
Coaching talent
Coaching without talent
Coaching primaDonnas
Coaching with 7 players or less
Coaching Xs and Os
Developing the talent pipeline
CoachING motivation
Marketing your team
Coaching your teams parents
Coaching your administration
Funding your teams travel and national tournaments
Managing a Nike Team
Coaching a team that lacKS motivation
Managing your AAU relationships
Managing your NCAA relationships
Recruiting
Coaching pure athletes with no basketball skills
Training conditioning
Training athletic performance
Coaching nutrition
Coaching teams with injuries
Coaching teams with 12 talented players
Coaching teams with one McDonald's All American and 11 talent challenged players
Coaching when your up by 50 in the last 10 minutes
Coaching when your down by 50 in the last 10 minutes
Scheduling for the next year
Coaching on a zero budget
Coaching when your one win away from making the Open Division....and you would rather win a state division title
Coaching when racism occurs on your team
Coaching when your team is mentally fragile
Coaching teams that can't stay off social media
Coaching practice
Coaching downtime
Developing off season programs
Managing a team with two superstars
Coaching mental toughness
Coaching when a personal relationship exist with the refs

.....I am sure there are others. ..or these are not the best ones

By popular request here is my take on the topic of coaching. Not to separate whether or not superior talent exist upon evaluation.

Jazzpt55,

What I like most abut your list is it is detailed. And you admit you may be leaving things of more importance and less importance off your list. Though in my belief coaching is not very hard, it is detailed. But the challenge should be fun not hard. I do believe more times than not the successful teams have very good support around them. And the measurement of support, or lack there of, should definitely be taken into consideration.

I think you have to coach the circumstance one quarter, one game, one day and one season at a time based on what you are given or not given.

Many know I promote the "Win Anyway" philosophy as opposed to the "one way" "system fits everyone" ego approach.

In my opinion you don't coach high school boys like you would coach high school girls. You don't coach 3rd grade CYO like you'd coach a high school or college team. For that matter you don't coach two 3rd grade teams the same. Or even each player on the same team the same. Every circumstance is different. Every player is different. Team needs are different year by year. But many use a one way ego philosophy and one way approach far too often. It's the system works regardless approach. The big boss ole school coach. Or my system can work regardless to the player(s) size, talent,speed, ability,IQ, ETC.... Sure players are all replaceable but the level of play will change if the level of players change. That's why the need to coach different players differently is critical for developing the best players and preparing some (the gifted few) for the next level.

Coaching should be about reaching the individuals you are coaching. Not coaching over their heads, , boxing them all into the same box, controlling, and/or frustrating and confusing the poor kids with too much x's and o's and ego. Or just measuring success by # of Championships or wins and losses. Here are a few things I would add in addition to Jazzpt55's list....

1.Accountability. Teaching the importance of individual accountability and leading by example.
2.Leadership..Manage bully clicks, internal divisions, selfishness, parents, individuals, team, all outside interference.
3. Direction and guidance. Preparing to improve along the way to the post season and years following.
4.Ability to recognize talent. Put them in the proper lane or position to develop full potential.
5.Ability to develop and nurture talent.Creating better players and better people out of what you have or are given.
6. Motivation. Get those you're coaching to want to do better for you and themselves. Know how to Prepare and Feed the pipeline.
7. Eliminate Complacency. Develop player(s) confidence, decision making, and good attitude.
8. Positive Encouragement.Develop weak or under utilized areas of a player's game. Challenge them to improve, take chances to stretch their IQ, confidence, and ability, not stay the same.
9.Game time coaching includes leading by example,self discipline, rotation,adjustments,clock & ref management etc.... Manage the game, not micro-manage and put it all on the players.
10. Scouting and game preparation. Includes knowing what players to account for and strong and weak areas to focus on.
11.Preparing kids for the next level. Taking the time out to individualize your instruction based on a player's individual need.
12. Life lessons and skills to take with them after the coaching experience.
13.Effective communication.Teaching how to play within the system and team ball. Importance of team unity. Ball movement. And when to take the shot or make the best decision. On the floor leadership.
14. Stressing work ethic, and the importance of being a better all around player not just a point scorer.
15.Teaching players how to create their own high standards and be their own toughest critic.
16. Empowering the players. And knowing when to trust them, let them play, and not micromanage making them think too much, scare or frustrate them to play poorly as a result.
17. Setting goals, defining their own victories, re-defining victory, what it is and means to win.
18. Put fear in it's place. Respect for the game, authority, your opponents, and each other, minus the hatred or negative competition. Allowing for mistakes if you learn from and don't continue to repeat careless mistakes that were unforced.
19. Put the game and playing the game into perspective so you get the most out of practice and a championship game.
20.Teaching the importance of sportsmanship and continued improvement by leading by example. It's a game to love. You should want to beat, but not hate your opponent(s). Don't hate the players or the game. Eliminate all hate both on and off the court.

 

[Azanna]

You got to mention Chamber with Antelope in the coach vs. talent discussion. He lost 80% of his scoring from last year, one Sr. and two transferred. His team is sitting at 17-7 should get 20 wins if the last three games play out correctly. He did not duck anyone in fact five of his losses came from 20 plus win teams, one state finalist last year and four top 20 NorCalpreps teams.

 

[mkbgdns]

I read Clay's book when it was first published, and it's terrific. anyone who appreciates his concise, clear and informative posts you read here, will enjoy this book. I guarantee it will expose you to ideas which may seem obvious after you read them, but which you hadn't considered before. and don't let Clay kid you--I heard that if Amazon can sell 3 copies, he gets a $1 million bonus.

 

[CamAca]

You got to mention Chamber with Antelope in the coach vs. talent discussion. He lost 80% of his scoring from last year, one Sr. and two transferred. His team is sitting at 17-7 should get 20 wins if the last three games play out correctly. He did not duck anyone in fact five of his losses came from 20 plus win teams, one state finalist last year and four top 20 NorCalpreps teams.

And what about the Elk Grove coach from last yr((haven't seen them this yr so not sure if he is still there), he seemed to be a very good coach

 

[Azanna]

Elk Grove coach's name is Larry and he is a very good coach. He did a great job at Florin and now at Elk Grove. I think they are 19-3 this season

 

[CamAca]

Elk Grove coach's name is Larry and he is a very good coach. He did a great job at Florin and now at Elk Grove. I think they are 19-3 this season

Yeah..love the way he pushes the kids pretty hard but they don't play fearfully as he always encourages them to attack and shoot when appropriate. Also seems to adjust well.

 

[RespectBBGame]

Sean
Antelope went through some big changes this year. He already knew with SR graduating that someone had to step up. Then the Johnson's sister transferred to West Campus most of last year scoring was gone. He is the type coach the getd the best of the players no matter what. The big think Sean has going for him is JBS. Most but not all of the players come from schools that most colleges wont even look at. Good example, who would know the Shanaijah Davidson was such a great player that can play with the best of the best. Who would look at Pioneer high school for going to a great D1 player. He is the type of coach that fines the unknown players and put them on the map.

Larry
Florin where larry use to coach is probably one of the hardest coaching jobs. This school is a deep inner city school with all types issues. He coach kids that others would never given a chance. We all talk about what player is going to what college. Florin talk about what players going to graduate. He gave them players something they need in life. That was they can get some where if they real wanted and I'm not says the school is bad but it's surrounded by people that like to take the easy way out. Hats off to him for what him in what he has done for Florin. Now Elk Grove was already a good team but with a good coach made them into a great team.

I know there is alot coaches that I haven't mentioned. Hats off to the ones that are coach to help players make players better on and off the court.

 

[kkross22]

Sean
Antelope went through some big changes this year. He already knew with SR graduating that someone had to step up. Then the Johnson's sister transferred to West Campus most of last year scoring was gone. He is the type coach the getd the best of the players no matter what. The big think Sean has going for him is JBS. Most but not all of the players come from schools that most colleges wont even look at. Good example, who would know the Shanaijah Davidson was such a great player that can play with the best of the best. Who would look at Pioneer high school for going to a great D1 player. He is the type of coach that fines the unknown players and put them on the map.

Larry
Florin where larry use to coach is probably one of the hardest coaching jobs. This school is a deep inner city school with all types issues. He coach kids that others would never given a chance. We all talk about what player is going to what college. Florin talk about what players going to graduate. He gave them players something they need in life. That was they can get some where if they real wanted and I'm not says the school is bad but it's surrounded by people that like to take the easy way out. Hats off to him for what him in what he has done for Florin. Now Elk Grove was already a good team but with a good coach made them into a great team.

I know there is alot coaches that I haven't mentioned. Hats off to the ones that are coach to help players make players better on and off the court.

Shanaijah has been balling since 3rd grade, a product of Vallejo, a talent many AAU coaches tried to land, but family went with Sean/JBS. Not taking anything away from the exposure she received under Sean, but believe me, the kid was well known for her skill set and scoring ability back in elementary and middle school.

 

[RespectBBGame]

kkross

I know but she didnt blowup until she hit the national circuit. Sean just gave her the national exposure she deserved.

 

[jaymel911]

kkross

I know but she didnt blowup until she hit the national circuit. Sean just gave her the national exposure she deserved.

where is she going to school? What defines "blowing up"