Hitting

[slick58]

I'm really wondering about pro ball but players have to learn somewhere. Whats going on with hitting at the MLB level? Kids are playing more baseball than ever in the US at an earlier age but the hitting at the highest level seems to be getting worse. I know that philosophy and execution of relief pitching plays a major part in it but still. Runs are way down and strikeouts are way up. I picked a random year of 86 and there were like 4 teams that had north of 1000 k's. Look at 14 and just 1 team (Kansas City) under 1000 k's.

My question is what's being taught at the younger levels. I know that advance metrics has placed more emphasis on power but to hit the ball hard you have to first hit the ball. Just about every guy in pro ball has a power hitting approach at the plate. Is this the same on the lower levels? Is everyone being taught nowadays to load up and rake? Like you got a kid in high school 5'8 155 is he being taught to drive the ball as hard as possible or to hit it where the defense isnt? I know on the pro level you hardly see any slap hitters. The only one I can think of is Ichiro. Today there are a handful of true contact hitters when in the 80's I could name allot of guys who were just trying to put the ball in play, find a hole, and move the line. Now, everybody wants to go deep when they may only have warning track power.

My question is are there things being taught at the younger levels that effecting hitting at the pro level?

One thing I will say is that allot of hitters have become too mechanical in their swing and never come out of it. Bonds is a example of a player who had an approach and swing and refused to come out of it. You could shift the whole team down the right field line and lob the ball underhand on the outside part of the plate and Bonds would still pull it. It wasn't until the the Giants made a run at the title around the last few weeks of the season that Bonds decided to basically stick the bat out there and lob the ball into left. Now with Bonds he hit so well for power you could live with it. With the new generation I'm not so sure you can live with that approach. Like a guy nowadays may have a swing built for middle in but the ball is on the outside edge and he still take the middle in swing. Back in the day you tried to do that to a guy like Gwynn he would go to the other side of the plate however and get the ball where he needed to.

My question is are hitters over coached? Are they losing the instincts needed to hit at the highest level and becoming robots?

This post was edited on 4/4 4:40 PM by slick58

This post was edited on 4/5 6:14 AM by slick58

 

[Where Are They Now]

Pitching has become very specialized even in college and some HS.

Some public's let kids use their "lesson doctors" but better not try that at the privates or publics that have a good program.

In Pro ball one layer of the PED Onion has been removed and most - not all - players are not as buffed.









This post was edited on 4/4 3:37 PM by Where Are They Now

 

[slick58]

I'll give you that pitching has changed. Thing is when the emphasis on Slg% overtook BA things stared to go downhill. Now everybody is Rob Deer without the Rob Deer power.

 

[slick58]

Also guys like Williams and Mays and a whole host of others were a buck fifty and they put the wood on the ball. It don't take muscle to make contact. Guys nowadays are flat out missing the ball.

 

[NCSF]

First of all, I tend to disagree with some of your analogies. Regarding Bonds, why in the world would he vary from his approach when he was in that groove. Honestly, that's crazy. Secondly, Ted Williams was a big man, 6'3, 205, not 150. Mays was 180-185 with huge legs and that's where he got his power.

Regarding pro guys with more strikeouts, less emphasis has been put on a two strike approach. I can see both sides. That said, look at the best playoff teams and they seem to be more contact guys.

Regarding high school hitters, there are lots of variables. First of all, I don't think enough emphasis is placed on hitting and pitching in practice time. 90% of the game is match-ups of hitting and pitching yet not enough time spent doing competitive bullpens and quality hitting reps at game speed. Too much time is placed on bunt coverage, double steal defense, and trick plays. You obviously need to be versed but the percentage of time practice is skewed.

There was a mention in the thread about the better programs not letting their players see private hitting guys. My answer to that is it all depends. First of all, I know some amazing hitting guys. Secondly, they are few and far between. Finally, the HS hitting guys are definitely not better than the best hitting guys outside HS.

A huge pet peeve is when coaches control players and have the need to put their stamp on them by changing their swing for no reason. Hitting is about confidence and I think too much emphasis is placed on mechanics and cues while hitting. Develop a sound athletic swing that you can trust same goes for pitching. The two most important aspects of hitting imo is to see the ball well and be on time. If you can do that, you have a chance. Hunter Pence is a great example. His swing is something you wouldn't teach yet it's very athletic, he sees the ball well, and he's on time.

Finally, great hitters are born, not made. You can hit or you can't. The best hitting coaches can help the hitters who can hit with their approach, their philosophy on attacking good pitches, and teaching them to load properly to be on time. Anyway, just my opinions.

 

[slick58]

I hear you. I was just trying to throw out a few guys on the smaller side who could rake. Williams was a rail at 175 when he broke into the league and Mays was 170 his first season. Williams did get significantly bigger over the years though. Bonds was 6'2 185 when he broke into the league and in the 230 to 240 range when he put on the show.

My point about Bonds was that when push came to shove late 01 Bonds went to left field to defeat the shift. Then you have a guy like Mike Moustakas who basically hit into the shift every at bat in the World Series. I mean the World Series where winning is all that matters. Then I read that this season he plans on bunting and using the whole field to counter the shift. What I'm wondering is at what point in life did anyone tell Mike Moustakas that he was good enough to only pull the ball? Like he had pop as a little kid and they just let that go cause it worked at the time. It just seems like guys hit into their shift every time. The numbers to lie because the batting average against the shift is way down. Terry Pendalton also once said that Bonds was the last person he thinks could hit .400 cause he could have simply bunted every time and ended up on third. Now with Bonds, swing away. Allot of these other guys need to come up with something different because they have data of where they hit it everytime and its working. Arbitration may also be a factor because power numbers at this moment are worth money. I guess they're not paying out bloop hits away that result in wins.

Speaking of Bonds and Gwynn. Gwynn once mentioned that his goal was to hit to left and everyone knew it. Lots of teams played him lots of different ways. Bonds played him shallow in left field daring him to hit it over his head. Gwynn said he used to always tell Bonds he was going to burn him one day but in all the time he only hit it over Bonds head once and Bonds took away left. He basically had to take a different approach when playing against Bonds.

I will say that mentioning Williams near Bonds and a shift was bad cause Williams had the shift named after him.

I hear you though. Something is going on that's not an anomaly at the MLB level because they even had to change the ball on the college level. Thats what led me to ask the question of what you guys can see at the lower level that's translating to the highest level.

I will say that the measurable of pitchers is getting better. The data shows that pitchers are throwing harder. Thing is does throwing harder equate to better pitching? I mean pitching is an art, a craft, that's learned over time. Guys today are throwing harder but arm injuries are also up. I read that there are so many flame throwers coming up through the youth ranks that they just plug the next guy in. Still, a new young fresh arm doesn't good pitcher. Pitching is something learned over time and I'm having a hard time believing pitching is better today. They use more arms which may be better. Managers will exploit more matchups which can be seen as better. I'm still not buying that pitching is the reason MLB is approaching 1960's era numbers on offense.

I like that Hunter Pence analogy! That's what I'm talking about. That swing is all over the place but he does his thing with it. Then you see guys where everything looks beautiful with the swing but the part where the bat meets the ball. It's killing me!!!!

I agree though. Too many hands must be in the cookie jar saying do it this way to guys who aren't the greatest hitters anyways. There is an article that breaks down Boggs, Mattingly, and Gwynn's hitting tips which happen to be the exact opposite of the way they hit. Bonds You Tube break down of his approach and swing are exactly how he hit but Bonds is a freak of nature and the average kid would be a fool to follow it. Its like Jordan giving advice on floating two feet above the rim, switching hands, laying it up gently off glass. Yeah, umm, good luck recreating that.

I agree. Guys need to see the ball and hit the ball. Attack all parts of the field and all parts of the plate. Naturally all swings aren't built to hit everything but hitter need to be as well rounded as possible. Never get to big for any part of the game. If sac bunt is what the situation calls for be able to bunt. If getting the ball up in the air to drive in a run, players need that in the arsenal. As it stands pitchers are picking hitters apart.

This not hitting is hitting close to home for me. I actually prefer a pitchers duel and have enjoyed the scores of Giants home games since they started playing at AT&T park. The striking out over and over is what's killing me. I don't even want to get into guys watching third strikes or not exploding on first pitch strikes. Up to the playoffs last season I probably watched the least of the regular season in my life. Giants were good but the product overall wasn't. Sorry for the spiel. Its about that time of the year and I had to get it out. The topic seems to become relevant this time of the year for the last 7 years.

 

[NCSF]

Slick- The biggest thing we didn't mention is the BBCOR bat. That has changed high school and college baseball more than anything and it's not close. The new balls were brought in with lower seams specifically to create less drag and better trajectory while maintaining the same exit speed. It was a reaction to the College World Series new field with farther fence dimensions and wind blowing in instead of out- the direct opposite of Rosenblatt. The games were becoming boring and chicks dig the long ball.

I think most (not all) high school programs do a poor job on the offensive side. They are not aggressive enough and they try to get deep into the count. Lots of teams are not allowed to swing at a breaking ball until two strikes and lots of teams take until strike one. Here's what I know- If a pitcher throws fastball for a first strike in the first two pitches, he's coming with a breaking ball over 80% of the time. Now, does a hitter want to sit on a fastball early or be defensive swinging at a breaking ball? Why not sit early in a count on one pitch middle-in or middle-out instead of react to two or three pitches. Seems like the BA would go up.

 

[slick58]

Do you think that BBCOR will help hitter development going forward? Giving prospective players a chance to develop longer using a tool similar to the one they will use as a professional? Balls jump off the older composite bats. Giving them something closer to wood at an earlier age should be a good thing.

Your answer is actually the same answer that just about every ex player had to say on the subject. The common theme is that they think guys aren't aggressive enough and get too deep into the count. Then not only are they not aggressive they don't use a two strike swing or take the third strike. Giants told Posey mid season to swing the bat more and get aggressive and he had a much better second half. I guess the logic is that its common place to make a starter work, see pitches, and get to the pen. Nowadays some pens are so good you'd rather see the starter. Ex players take from what I've read is that guys need to stop worrying about making the pitcher work and hit their pitch no matter when its thrown in the count. I also read a manager that says exactly what you said about first pitch fastballs followed by something with movement. Pitchers are grooving fastballs early in the count and guys are taking them when back in the day pitchers were getting punished for doing that.

McGwire had something interesting on the subject about the cut fastball. He claims that pitch alone has made it harder to hit. He says guys throw it so well and it's so hard to pick up that its something his generation didn't have to deal with. Mariano used to be the only one throwing it now lots of guys do. You think he's on to something with the cutter? I can't see a single pitch changing the numbers so drastically myself.

 

[NCSF]

Regarding the BBCOR- I don't know if it makes you a better hitter but it doesn't reward a bad hitter like it used to. Next, the cutter is easy to teach and effective against both lefties and righties. It's effective because it stays on plane with a fastball and breaks sharp and late so hard to recognize. It's just one more thing to put in the head of a hitter regarding what he's looking for. I still think a well placed fastball is the best pitch followed by a straight change with fastball arm speed. Then pick a breaking ball that matches arm angle well and a pitcher has a great deal to think about.

 

[slick58]

I see BBCOR as a plus then (time will tell). Some of the composite bats were getting ridiculous IMO.

I think your describing Maddux as your ideal pitcher. A guy who can put the ball where he wants to and change speed and movement with the same arm action.