NCS competitive inequity
- Thread starter Coach DUBB
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So salesian, St. Mary's get moved up to D3 along with Kennedy of Richmond (barely competitive )
But Piedmont and Marin Catholic Remained D4?
Where's the Logic in that?
But Piedmont and Marin Catholic Remained D4?
Where's the Logic in that?
It's a points system, using the past three years of NCS playoff competition only.
2. Any team averaging 8.0 or higher during the three-year period of competition in the NCS Championships using the following scale would be required to move to the next higher division.
a. 15 points for winning a section championship
b. 10 points for playing in the section championship contest
c. 6 points for playing in a semifinal game
d. 3 point for playing in a quarterfinal game
e. 1 point for entering the section championships as a champion or at-large team.
So basically you need 25 points over three years to move up ... though this year some schools were moved by enrollment before this was passed (as far as I can tell).
I misunderstood it originally, as now enrollment is completely out of the picture, so St. Joseph's, which moved to D4 by enrollment, will stay D4 until or unless it gathers 24 points over a three-year span in D4 playoffs, or gets no points over a three-year span in D4, and is bumped down to D5 by a team moving up.
As for Kennedy, I think they were moved up by enrollment prior to this being passed. They weren't moved up due to competitive equity.
One other note: Schools can appeal their placement and also opt for higher divisions in the fall, which should change things. Watch for O'Dowd to move to D2.
2. Any team averaging 8.0 or higher during the three-year period of competition in the NCS Championships using the following scale would be required to move to the next higher division.
a. 15 points for winning a section championship
b. 10 points for playing in the section championship contest
c. 6 points for playing in a semifinal game
d. 3 point for playing in a quarterfinal game
e. 1 point for entering the section championships as a champion or at-large team.
So basically you need 25 points over three years to move up ... though this year some schools were moved by enrollment before this was passed (as far as I can tell).
I misunderstood it originally, as now enrollment is completely out of the picture, so St. Joseph's, which moved to D4 by enrollment, will stay D4 until or unless it gathers 24 points over a three-year span in D4 playoffs, or gets no points over a three-year span in D4, and is bumped down to D5 by a team moving up.
As for Kennedy, I think they were moved up by enrollment prior to this being passed. They weren't moved up due to competitive equity.
One other note: Schools can appeal their placement and also opt for higher divisions in the fall, which should change things. Watch for O'Dowd to move to D2.
I agree this plan is very wrong. It is punishing success and rewarding failure which leads to mediocrity. This will clearly hurt the NCS entries into NorCals since the top programs will all be playing up a level.
One of the best lessons of sports is everyone competes by the same rules. You do not grow the strike zone if a pitcher can't throw strikes or shorten the 100 yard dash for runners who are too slow. This plan is doing exactly the opposite by changing the rules to make it easier for some and harder for others. What is this plan teaching?
In many cases there will be an incentive to lose which is crazy to think about.
Also, most teams are successful because they have a great class of Seniors. The following classes are likely not to be as good and they are the ones who have to play up after the strong class graduates.
If you are going to do something like this at least set the bar higher. Some teams (boys) have not won NCS in 14 years coming close making two finals in the last 3 years and are getting moved up. It is almost cruel to get moved up for just coming close to winning a championship. Other schools won NCS once in its history and are getting moved up. Moving up teams for near success or one time success is harsh.
We like playing a tough schedule and choose to do so but when it comes to the post-season enrollment should determine the division. No matter what rules they make only one team will win the Championship and that team should be the best team.
One of the best lessons of sports is everyone competes by the same rules. You do not grow the strike zone if a pitcher can't throw strikes or shorten the 100 yard dash for runners who are too slow. This plan is doing exactly the opposite by changing the rules to make it easier for some and harder for others. What is this plan teaching?
In many cases there will be an incentive to lose which is crazy to think about.
Also, most teams are successful because they have a great class of Seniors. The following classes are likely not to be as good and they are the ones who have to play up after the strong class graduates.
If you are going to do something like this at least set the bar higher. Some teams (boys) have not won NCS in 14 years coming close making two finals in the last 3 years and are getting moved up. It is almost cruel to get moved up for just coming close to winning a championship. Other schools won NCS once in its history and are getting moved up. Moving up teams for near success or one time success is harsh.
We like playing a tough schedule and choose to do so but when it comes to the post-season enrollment should determine the division. No matter what rules they make only one team will win the Championship and that team should be the best team.
So what should be the criterion or criterion for setting divisions?
Enrollment is the traditional measure, but remember that Pinewood (210) beat St. Mary's Stockton, then the No. 1 team in the nation. Bishop O'Dowd has just a few more students than Ygnacio Valley, but they are hardly playing the same game.
O'Dowd gives scholarships, so how are the rules the same for everyone? Or how about a school in an area with a lot of money and community resources for sports?
There are no really obvious solutions for crafting fair and reasonable divisions, or if there are, I haven't heard them.
Enrollment is the traditional measure, but remember that Pinewood (210) beat St. Mary's Stockton, then the No. 1 team in the nation. Bishop O'Dowd has just a few more students than Ygnacio Valley, but they are hardly playing the same game.
O'Dowd gives scholarships, so how are the rules the same for everyone? Or how about a school in an area with a lot of money and community resources for sports?
There are no really obvious solutions for crafting fair and reasonable divisions, or if there are, I haven't heard them.
So you just base the divisions on enrollment and leave it at that. Just like wrestling or boxing is based on weight. You don't bring in a bunch of adjustments which often have the opposite of the intended effect.
If you want to counter the advantages of private Catholic schools with no enrollment boundaries, throw out all the geographic and transfer eligibility rules that hobble the public schools. Your "scholarship" issue is not on point - the publics are free and most players attending privates pay at least something. What gives a handful of private Catholic schools their advantage is that they can accept anyone from anywhere, plus they have administrations who will provide the resources and support necessary to create a successful program.
Regarding the open division - have teams file an election every season by no later than December 31. Those who think they have a chance to prove they are the best of the best will get that chance.
I would disagree that enrollment is a good criterion -- there are simply too many variables. Schools with similar sizes are not competitively equal, and never will be. Some are private, some have money, some have student bodies more interested in athletics -- and the impetus for these changes spring from that sad truth.
Ygnacio Valley and Miramonte are roughly the same size, and are relatively close geographically, but they are not at all comparable athletically. Pinewood punches way above its 210-student weight.
If the goal is to level the playing field somewhat, something should be done. If not, then less competitive schools will never rise, and Bishop O'Dowd and St, Joseph Notre Dame will dominate their divisions in all sports year in and year out. And maybe that's a good thing ...
Ygnacio Valley and Miramonte are roughly the same size, and are relatively close geographically, but they are not at all comparable athletically. Pinewood punches way above its 210-student weight.
If the goal is to level the playing field somewhat, something should be done. If not, then less competitive schools will never rise, and Bishop O'Dowd and St, Joseph Notre Dame will dominate their divisions in all sports year in and year out. And maybe that's a good thing ...
I don't think moving school up that win all the time is a bad thing it's a reward to me. This will challenge the players to step up even more. Just think in about 5 years most of the teams that play in the open wilmyl have move up to D1 or D2 division. Enrollment doesn't mean much any more just because the school has more students doesn't mean they will be better. Good example, Brookside Christian only has 130 high school student but they were in Open for State.
The issue is the players that have to "step up" will not be the same players that already stepped up and caused the school to get moved up in the first place. It will change in 2-3 years so we will never see how it was intended to work anyway
Excellant point jayme911 !
But actually many for some reason think all players were created equal, and a one shoe fits all coaching system is the cure all.
That is why I think the best coaches are the ones who keep their egos in check. They understand each player is blessed differently. So they tend to provide a bit more individualized encouragement and instruction. They are more concerned about helping young children figure things out themselves than taking all the credit.. All of their players graduate from the program with more confidence and are a better player and person as a result of the coaching.
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We change not everyone will be happy but needs to be done. But why put BOD in D2 they should be in D1 like long time ago. This is my opinion I think all teams that play in the Open how be in D1. This will make all the other divisions more competitive. For example how is Pinewood stays in D5. Teams the Norcal that I think should be in D1 in Girls basketball is Pinewood, SHC, Misty, BOD, salesian, MM, SMB, Brookside, Sac high, Antelope, Vanden and Carondelet. The other teams I didn't mention already are in D1
