Remember when Pinewood beat the #1 team in the Country?
- Thread starter WhoGotNext
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I thought Doc was overrated too ...
Mitty had open shots to win the game, as I recall, at the end of regulation and one of the overtimes. Missed them both ... man, Sue just can't coach.
If I'm not mistaken, didn't pinewood beat SMS when they were number one in the country too? Or was that Miramonte?
We have different levels of overrated... Sue’s level like Tom’s is where people (aka most the ones on this site) actually think they are amazing
if Sue and Doc are overrated, what the hell are all the other coaches categorized in California??????
Frankly, it's always tempting to wonder how heralded, winning coaches at private/parochials would do at a downtrodden or utterly mediocre public with severe demographic/enrollment limitations.
I totally 100% agree with you on that one. I'd love to see some of these coaches play with average players and make them better. I will say this though...There is no way that Pinewood should have even been in the conversation this year and for some reason, they were. I've seed Doc in action and his practices are simply amazing. I can't speak for Sue (just saw her at a camp working one time) but her teams are fundamental and run their stuff well.
I purposely sit behind coaches benches just to hear them talk with their players, coaches, see how they react to opposing teams runs etc. You'd be surprised to hear/see what some of the "top coaches" think/say.
Exactly. But part of being a good coach is recognizing when these inherent differences exist and taking advantage of the opportunities they bring. It would be interesting to see what legendary Coach Ladouceur of DLS could do if he took over the football program at neighboring/struggling public Ygnacio Valley HS for a 5 year stretch.
There are some past examples I know of. One that comes to mind is when Wade Nakamura coached at Homestead (Sunnyvale/Cupertino) for a year or two back in the early 2000's. They were significantly better for that stretch. Then he went to Leland (San Jose) and they were also significantly better. Then he moved to Presentation where they've had some good teams, but typically lower half of WCAL.
My guess is that if Sue or Doc took over a team like Palo Alto, Los Gatos, or Lynbrook, they would become the powerhouse public team in CCS. Probably not not able to dethrone Mitty or Pinewood, but of course it would depend on who took over there.
My guess is that if Sue or Doc took over a team like Palo Alto, Los Gatos, or Lynbrook, they would become the powerhouse public team in CCS. Probably not not able to dethrone Mitty or Pinewood, but of course it would depend on who took over there.
My guess is that they would improve night and day. I don't know a lot of the DLS program other than they win. That said, i'm told that a lot of those guys are average guys who work their tails off. Of course they have some talented players but the work ethic that's instilled in the program (again from what I hear) is second to none. Heard him speak a few times and he's definitely a motivating person to hear.
I’m sure there would be major improvement, but could they compete with the area’s better programs like Pitt, Campo or of course DLS? Doubtful.
No. The point was: How about Overfelt, Fremont, El Camino or San Mateo. In other words, a real public challenge.
Personally, I think they could. But why would they? Just to prove it to you? By the way, on the boys side, Jason Townsend was able to build some strong teams at Fremont in the four or five years he coached there. I think you're generally underestimating the effect a strong coach can have.
Sorry. No talent, no W's. Great coaches can't create talent out of the ether. Most CCS public schools have little or no talent. Those coaches are stuck with what happens to show up on campus each year. Even if they operate a club program, they can't funnel kids to their public school because of strict enrollment rules. Private/parochials have no such limitations. It's a different ballgame. One telling statistic: Since the state instituted CIF titles for girls, CCS publics have one championship, CCS private/parochials have 30.
The schools and cities in the ccs seem pretty desirable to live in and attend. There is talent considering the private schools have so many titles. Seems strange. It isnt like these public schools are inner city with no hope.
Maybe it's because the privates get all the good coaches.
Seriously though, your complaining is starting to take on a life of its own.
I don't think state titles are a fair measure ... but obviously you have to have talent to be even somewhat successful.
But good coaches attract talent, both from within and outside of the school, and then that program will do well compared to its peers. As I've said too many times, I felt some of my best coaching (such as it is) took place with low-talent teams that weren't even .500. But if your only measure is postseason success, or 20 wins, or league titles, I think you'd miss a fair amount of quality high school coaches.
But good coaches attract talent, both from within and outside of the school, and then that program will do well compared to its peers. As I've said too many times, I felt some of my best coaching (such as it is) took place with low-talent teams that weren't even .500. But if your only measure is postseason success, or 20 wins, or league titles, I think you'd miss a fair amount of quality high school coaches.
I think to reach the national level, you need some advantage (talent pipeline, administration support to start), but I'm convinced coaches that are considered elite (Sue, Tom, Malik, Doc, Kelly, Monica to name a few) would push other programs to high water marks.
Good coaches can go from A to B no matter where they are at. It takes consistent talent coming in to go from B to C.
Good coaches can go from A to B no matter where they are at. It takes consistent talent coming in to go from B to C.
Agree! But I would not so much in who you consider "elite" coaches. Elite programs? For sure!
Im not sure to be honest. I guess I have a list but totally respect yours. I just think there's a difference between running an elite program and being an elite coach. I think Sue, Monica, and Doc are elite coaches because their players get better, they are taught fundamentals and it's evident in how their teams play. I think Sue consistently gets the best players out of the three. I've seen all of the coaches above mentioned (minus tom) practices and there is defiantly a separation in regards to dealing with the devil in the details.
Tom, Kelly, and Malik are coaches of Elite programs.
Tom is hands down one of the most successful coaches on here and what he's done in his time at SMS will be hard to repeat. But he's had the horses, players, all-Americans and what do they do? 2-2-1 press and sit back in a zone all the time and when they're in a close game and have to play man (go back and watch) they get get beat because they don't know the proper principals. He's won more than he's lost, he has the rings to back up his resume, but even as clay said in his article, people were starting to catch on the last 1/4 of his time at SMS.
Kelly is like Tom Jr but his kids aren't at the same level, so he has to coach them up more. His system is perfect for the kids that he gets. They're not all american, but they're VERY good and he's done wonders without a big man. Yes he was blessed with Sabrina and that took Miramonte to another level (how could it not-she's in the GOAT conversation for Norcal HS basketball and even in college), but now he's having a harder time to maintain at that level. He's another 2-2-1 dribble drive guy, but mixes in man to man and doesn't always stay stuck in a zone. His practices seem to be more about teaching the whole rather than breaking things down but his kids run their stuff damn near perfect. Having Clay on his staff is valuable. Clay's been an assistant for two of the BEST HS coaches in Scott Brown and Casey Rush...there's a lot of knowledge in those two.
I will say that Kelly is the only person on here that's been able to achieve high success in HS and AAU.
Malik has athletic players and his teams just beat up on you and wear you down. They run multiple presses (some are more successful than others) and mostly play man to man defense. Watch his practices and they're mickey mouse basic with a lot of scrimmaging and little fundamentals-it's evident in how much they turn the ball over vs. weaker teams. What he is amazing at is motivating and getting his kids to play VERY hard. The thing I admire about him the most is that he's not afraid to play anyone and will go into the season with a losing record only to win league, get a decent seed and run the table. The last two years he's had them peaking at the right time...in post season. That's the mark of a good coach...as clay said getting them to buy in and stay motivated is the hard part. It's interesting...in all the BOD games Iv'e seen, it seems that his pulse is never about 90 beats per minute. he's always calm and rarely yells at his players.
For NorCal it's Tom Gonsalves and Malik McCord. I'd be surprised if we had a 3rd coach that's won an open. Sue, Doc and Kelly have made it to the big game but came up short. It's not a 3 game series, it's not a 5 game series, it's not a 7 game series, it's one game. It's tough.
That's is correct. But here is the elephant in the room nobody wants to discuss and may disagree with. BOD and SMS usually have better overall team athleticism than Mitty and Pinewood and of course Miramonte.
Weren't you just baggin on Kerr who was overrated, yet he won two NBA championships AND said Mark Jackson would have done better? You're all over the place man...Do you know how to differentiate between the two-Elite Program and Elite Coach? Who'd you play for? Azzam or West?
I didn't say kerr was overrated. I said he wasn't the best coach ever that some seem to think he is. I also didn't say Jackson could do better I said he would have been fired for 15 wins. I played for 1 and my brother played for Otis.
Let's not forget Pinewood has approximately 60 students per grade at their school. So let's say maybe 30 girls per class.
Meaning that you have A LOT less to work with than your average high school. AKA good, if not great, coaching.
