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Vacaville & Clayton Valley Full Pad Scrimmage?

TedSmithers

TedSmithers

Sports Fanatic
Mar 23, 2010
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Disregard previous message. A bunch of schools participated in the Sac State Team Football Camp.

Then again...I must ask...How does this CIF rule apply to these team contact camps?

2.7 NO SCHOOL WILL BE ALLOWED TO USE PROTECTIVE GEAR FROM THEIR LAST FOOTBALL GAME UNTIL THE OFFICIAL DAY TO START PRACTICE THE FOLLOWING FALL. THE PENALTY FOR VIOLATIONS OF THIS RULES:
  • FIRST OFFENSE: PRACTICE DAYS WILL BE REDUCED TWO FOR ONE FOR THE NUMBER OF DAYS IN VIOLATION
  • SECOND OFFENSE: TEAMS WILL NOT BE ALLOWED IN THE PLAY-OFFS
http://www.cifcs.org/governance/rules/football

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Old message:
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Can someone shed some light on what this match-up was all about back on 6/16 (see link below)? Definitely doesn't look like a Pee-Wee league or Semi-Pro.

Thanks.

http://pga.sportswurlz.com/pgs?SERV...1828468661&wapp=foto&wpage=album&GAL_ID=34542
 
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TedSmithers said:
Disregard previous message. A bunch of schools participated in the Sac State Team Football Camp.

Then again...I must ask...How does this CIF rule apply to these team contact camps?

2.7 NO SCHOOL WILL BE ALLOWED TO USE PROTECTIVE GEAR FROM THEIR LAST FOOTBALL GAME UNTIL THE OFFICIAL DAY TO START PRACTICE THE FOLLOWING FALL. THE PENALTY FOR VIOLATIONS OF THIS RULES:
  • FIRST OFFENSE: PRACTICE DAYS WILL BE REDUCED TWO FOR ONE FOR THE NUMBER OF DAYS IN VIOLATION
  • SECOND OFFENSE: TEAMS WILL NOT BE ALLOWED IN THE PLAY-OFFS
http://www.cifcs.org/governance/rules/football

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Old message:
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Can someone shed some light on what this match-up was all about back on 6/16 (see link below)? Definitely doesn't look like a Pee-Wee league or Semi-Pro.

Thanks.

http://pga.sportswurlz.com/pgs?SERV...1828468661&wapp=foto&wpage=album&GAL_ID=34542
Click to expand...
From what I understand the language is hazy on what defines contact in summer. "Controlled Thud" is allowed if there is a winner and loser, not full speed. It's interesting that you point out that "protective gear" is not to be used from last game to 1st day of practice which is Aug. 10th in NCS, summer camp at school doesn't count. I went to a 7 on 7 last week and saw a team practicing in full pads as well....
 
You cited a Central Section rule. Both Clayton Valley Charter (NCS) and Vacaville (SJS) are not in the central section. I believe the rule is section related. I believe some sections state that players can't participate in contact if directed by the team / coach etc. and get around it as well as other organized team events (i.e. 7-on-7 passing ) if voluntary by the players.
 
NorCalSportsFan said:
You cited a Central Section rule. Both Clayton Valley Charter (NCS) and Vacaville (SJS) are not in the central section. I believe the rule is section related. I believe some sections state that players can't participate in contact if directed by the team / coach etc. and get around it as well as other organized team events (i.e. 7-on-7 passing ) if voluntary by the players.
Click to expand...

Good point, NCSF.

One reason why I brought up the early contact camp issue was related to another "ruling" that I heard from a friend. He cited the following quote from the Linemen Inc website:

http://www.linemeninc.com/

"High school coaches are being told by their leagues, sections and districts not to hand out equipment until August."

Although the quote above isn't referenced from any specific section or overall CIF ruling, I assumed it was "universal" or state-wide, thus the google-friendly citing of the Central Section's ruling on pad hand-out.

However, if you look at the SJS by-laws, one would find the following:

http://www.cifsjs.org/about-cifsjs/constitution/bylaw19-football.pdf

1903. PHYSICAL CONDITIONING PRACTICE A high school shall not conduct a physical conditioning practice session during the summer prior to the opening date of authorized football practice unless so authorized by the appropriate CIF Section.

1903.1 SUMMER: Sac-Joaquin Section schools may conduct summer conditioning sessions in all sports. Conditioning is limited to weight training, conditioning and skill development. The following equipment will be permitted during summer football provided it is used in a safe manner: balls; air dummies; standup dummies; blocking sleds; tackling dummies; blocking shields and blocking aprons. Helmets, shoulder pads and leg pads are prohibited. All other summer activities are limited to the approval of the individual school districts and/or leagues.

1903.2 TEAM CAMPS: Any school attending or hosting a team camp must have the approval of the school principal and the superintendent or his/her designee. Team camps must include a minimum of four schools. A student may only attend one team camp for a maximum of five consecutive days. School equipment may be used at the team camp.

NOTES:
1. Any approval of a team camp must be forwarded to the school’s league commissioner. Any violation of this rule will be sent to the league for appropriate action.
2. Individual camps are not affected by this bylaw as long as the member school’s equipment is not used

NCS's by-laws page is an eye-sore to search. I'll find it when I have time.
 
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you can wear full gear
can't go full speed

lots of places still do team camps, colleges and high schools host them. Everything has to have a pre determined winner. At Sac state, the offense always "won" the play. defense had to let themselevs get blocked... if they are following the rule correctly, no one should ever make any contact at even "thud" level.
 
From what the BVAL(Liberty and Freedom) coaches I talked to told me was the rule includes no thud and that is the discreptency from what happened at Sac State. I was told there's a video on youtube of Clayton from the Sac State camp. Haven't found it yet if any one else has time. I know Liberty was at a camp but were on high alert after Sac State rumors.
 
EastBayDad said:
you can wear full gear
can't go full speed

lots of places still do team camps, colleges and high schools host them. Everything has to have a pre determined winner. At Sac state, the offense always "won" the play. defense had to let themselevs get blocked... if they are following the rule correctly, no one should ever make any contact at even "thud" level.
Click to expand...

Judge for yourself from the sportswurlz photos...Go to the June 14 and June 16 photo sets. All 3 sets are from the Sacto State camp.

http://pga.sportswurlz.com/pgs?SERVICE=pga.svc.PGAOneService&wmo=sn&wapp=foto&SPO_CD=FB
 
CCS Bylaws has a similar clause

"1900 PHYSICAL CONDITIONING PRACTICE A high school shall not conduct a physical conditioning practice session during the summer prior to the opening date of authorized football practice unless so authorized by the appropriate CIF Section."

Can't seem to find something under weight training, etc. Seems lots of programs have voluntary regular weight training and some of the players voluntarily work together on conditioning and strength. It seems the sections should really be more specific on definitions etc. It just seems too gray. I wouldn't want my son to play unless he was conditioned and went through strength training to prepare for the season. I think contact is also more important early and earlier in the summer for the season starts to ensure proper technique and battle harden the players some before the season. There should be consistency in the state as far as working out and training. I would rather have a coach involved that teaches proper form, etc.then have the kids wing it.
 
Found the NCS ruling...

http://cifncs.org/sports/football/files/Summary of Football Practice Guideline Dates.pdf

The first day of summer activities. Each school is allowed to conduct sport specific activities and use school facilities if the principal and/or school district approve but may not make such activities mandatory. During the summer period there is greater flexibility concerning other CIF and NCS rules regarding contests, number of contests, practice with other schools, etc. However, these are school activities and each school and district are advised to set parameters for conduct of these activities. For the sport of football schools are allowed to issue equipment and equipment may be used during summer activities. There can be no live action or THUD drills. Control drills are allowed.

Also found a separate FAQ sheet here... http://cifncs.org/sports/football/files/CIF/Football info.pdf

This FAQ sheet provides clarification on the contact camps.
 
So would Clayton Valley Charter attending the Sac Team football camp (even the title has team) be circumventing the NCS rules? Seems like it might be and would be a team already on probation.
 
NorCalSportsFan said:
So would Clayton Valley Charter attending the Sac Team football camp (even the title has team) be circumventing the NCS rules? Seems like it might be and would be a team already on probation.
Click to expand...

The very last paragraph/ruling (pg. 5) mentions "Allowable activities for team camps."
http://cifncs.org/sports/football/files/Summary of Football Practice Guideline Dates.pdf

Honestly, I can't say definitively until I see a video. Pictures (from sportswurlz) can be deceiving as you cannot gauge the speed or magnitude of impact. For all we know, they could have been jogging or lightly tapping each other...although several photos seem to show otherwise.

I'd like to see a video before making judgement...
 
Found this. Google searched Clayton Valley Sac State. There is a lot of whistles being blown. But looks like everything is going on excluding tackling. In your link TedSmithers it states no thud. I certainly see some good shots being given by both squads.

 
TedSmithers said:
Agree, this is more than I expected based on the provided definitions.

See 1:37 of the video clip near the end zone...
Click to expand...
Paloma andTed...I saw some good hits in the video, but it was two hand touch with pads and over all it looked like a good scrimmage but not by the rules and there was no serious pushing and shuffing.The Red team had to be CV as their ground game looked pretty good, in a full contact game, the Eagles will be hard to stop....
 
Ted Smithers should go tell Murphy face to face how much he is offended by CV daring to try and get better in the off-season. Smithers and the moron shCathedral fan Irish Cheers probably PM each other like giggling little girls.
Analyzing video trying to pinpoint some minor technical violation is the work of bitc*es.
 
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Both Teams Run Defense looked good. However, Vacaville looks as usual victim of the passing game. Also, CVC dropped a lot of balls. Heck, just get these 2 teams to schedule a Preseason Game!
 
ncscalfootball said:
Both Teams Run Defense looked good. However, Vacaville looks as usual victim of the passing game. Also, CVC dropped a lot of balls. Heck, just get these 2 teams to schedule a Preseason Game!
Click to expand...

That wasn't Vacaville, doesn't look anything like Vacaville. Woodcreek according to the video.
 
Bluedog, I was looking more at the line play. That looked business as usual. The stuff with the backs and wide outs did look like two hand touch. But like I said earlier, doubt any thing happens. Cool topic though becuase the CIF is going to have all it can handle monitoring these new rules.
 
Paloma said:
Bluedog, I was looking more at the line play. That looked business as usual. The stuff with the backs and wide outs did look like two hand touch. But like I said earlier, doubt any thing happens. Cool topic though becuase the CIF is going to have all it can handle monitoring these new rules.
Click to expand...
Paloma.....Both teams had pretty good size and it looked like CV had the upper hand on the line as the running back on several plays was finding holes to use and picking up good yardage...There was what looked like a over sized back that shifted to the right which helped open holes and gave the QB pretty good protection although the CV recievers could not make as many catches as were thrown. But, Woodcreek did have pretty good past defense except for one long pass, but in real game time, I don't think it would have made any difference.
 
FUBO said:
Ted Smithers should go tell Murphy face to face how much he is offended by CV daring to try and get better in the off-season. Smithers and the moron shCathedral fan Irish Cheers probably PM each other like giggling little girls.
Analyzing video trying to pinpoint some minor technical violation is the work of bitc*es.
Click to expand...

Excellent post, Fubo...bravo!

How about you or someone with better knowledge chime in with how the rules SHOULD be interpreted? You have a bunch of joe schmoe's out there (like me) who read the literal definition of these various section rules and make whatever ass-backwards interpretation of them. Yes, I may be in this category...

I find it interesting that folks come on these boards making accusations of various schools violating whatever rules WITHOUT any proof. I suspect that many of these individuals make the accusations without knowing the real DEFINITION of these rules...It's not always black & white.

So why not have a CONSTRUCTIVE discussion on these boards about the rules, so we can get this NCP Football community better informed?
 
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TedSmithers said:
Excellent post, Fubo...bravo!

How about you or someone with better knowledge chime in with how the rules SHOULD be interpreted? You have a bunch of joe schmoe's out there (like me) who read the literal definition of these various section rules and make whatever ass-backwards interpretation of them. Yes, I may be in this category...

I find it interesting that folks come on these boards making accusations of various schools violating whatever rules WITHOUT any proof. I suspect that many of these individuals make the accusations without knowing the real DEFINITION of these rules...It's not always black & white.

So why not have a CONSTRUCTIVE discussion on these boards about the rules, so we can get this NCP Football community better informed?
Click to expand...
Ted......The way the rules are written in each area, I doubt that we will ever have a clear picture of the definition of the rules which makes it easy to bend them...I'm in the same boat as you as events can take place right in front of you and it takes a few minutes to decide what really happened...In any case, maybe the CV-woodcreek should have been no pads and just two hand touch....At south lake Tahoe , Ponderosa from woodland, Bishop Amatee from Reno, South lake Tahoe High and one other school had a scrimmage last week end and it was leg pads only and two hand touch. So maybe this is the way it should go???
 
I was at the CIF meeting at UC Davis this past winter and the CIF commissioners clearly stated that line play was not being metered during contact drills or scrimmages. The rules are set forth for tackling ONLY!! Makes no sense to me either, I would think contact is contact. There has to be a winner determined prior the scrimmage.Usually offense in scrimmage situations. Defenders get to point of contact and then must pull up short of contacting the ball carrier and whistle should be blown and ball spotted there.
 
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