no one on this thread said that coaching was difficult.. that was not the point being made here at all.. but i'll take your bait.... get off your high horse.. Of course its not hard for someone who knows what they are doing, just like any other profession.. but you make it sound like you could do better with zero experience...
Carondelet upsets SMS
- Thread starter colhenrylives
- Start date
Is it wrong for me to be confident? Or to have a viewpoint that doesn't see things that are not life threatening as simpler than most make them? That will always be my opinion so those on the other side better get use to it. Me, my attitude, and beliefs, will never become the biggest obstacles in the way of my success. That's how I see coaching. That is my opinion. As I respect others opinion they will either respect mine or not matter much to me.
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Are you going there? I coached thousands of games and I've been wrong more times than I can count. I have no problem saying I'm wrong when I'm wrong. That being said, that's not what we were discussing. That's not even close. I don't know the coaches that you mentioned. I've never spoke to them. All I can go on is my thirty years of experience. No coach who has a highly successful program, whether it be boys/girls at the high school level or men/women at the collegiate level is talking to their kids about moving up in the rankings. I'm sorry that just doesn't happen. Sure someone like a parent or booster will post something and the coach might retweet it. They will say how humbled they are, thanks for the support, and we are just working hard taking it one game at a time. They are not in the locker room saying "way to go, Maxpreps has us #3. Lets keep working to get to #2 when the next rankings come out." That's laughable.
And that is your opinion. I can respect that. Thanks for sharing it coach.
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Clay
I taught you was a true writer. A real writer will never be bias even throw he/she does like the team. So what kind of writer are this year since you became an assistant coach at MM. Did that assistant coaching job empower you views to be bais or always deflect anything thing that said about and organization???? The question today are you a real writer or you the new deflection writer???
I taught you was a true writer. A real writer will never be bias even throw he/she does like the team. So what kind of writer are this year since you became an assistant coach at MM. Did that assistant coaching job empower you views to be bais or always deflect anything thing that said about and organization???? The question today are you a real writer or you the new deflection writer???
Okay, one at a time…
I've been involved with elite programs, both as a coach, and also from the outside. Yes, the most important thing is winning, and yes, state championships are the ultimate goal. But to say that elite programs don't care about rankings is simply untrue. It may be true for you, and some of the coaches you know, but that blanket statement is simply incorrect.
Coaches of elite programs are often very concerned about their rankings, which is why the Duncanville coaching staff doesn't really care for me that much. If the rankings didn't matter, I wouldn't matter – but the rankings do matter. Again, not to all coaches, but certainly to some.
The rankings also are useful for elite coaches because it serves as a motivational tool in preparing teams for games. On the one hand, having a higher ranking than your opponent can help a coach make a team realize that they're in for a tougher game than they might expect. On the other, going up against a team that is ranked higher than you can serve as a good motivational tool.
So to say polls are complete and rankings are completely worthless is, I think, an exaggeration. They do matter, though certainly not to the extent that many not involved as coaches might expect.
Now the second part is a little more annoying. I spend a lot of time doing rankings, and have spent a lot of time over a lot of years doing the rankings. I take it extremely seriously, and I am not lazy. I look carefully at records, carefully at head-to-head matchups, carefully at common opponents, carefully at strength of schedule.
I don't just make it up on the spur of the moment, whether it be national, regional or local. One reason is that I know it matters – again it may not matter as much as some people think, but rankings do matter, they do create interest, and they are worth something.
So when I coached at Bentley I was a real writer, but now I'm not? Or when I coached at Campolindo and Acalanes, among others, was I not a real writer? Does it depend on how good the team is?
Everyone has biases, even you, and many times, it's very difficult to tease out our own motives in a particular situation.
I have some opinions about the Cal Stars, and I know the coaches. I have some opinions about the Soldiers and I know Pico. I have some opinions about other club programs, but I generally don't talk about them because I'm really not that involved. You can ask me questions about the Cal Stars and I will answer to the best of my knowledge, but I don't go to tryouts, I don't go to practices, I don't coach a team and I think I went to one tournament for one day last year because I was in charge of the NCAA information.
To get back to your point about bias, though, it's an important one -- there is really no such thing as a truly unbiased writer, or article, or report. It's simply impossible. Serious journalists, and I count myself as one, do their best to filter out as much bias as possible, but it's not as easy as it seems.
Clay
You made some good points. Let talk about traveling out of the state to watch these teams? Or do you good by word of mouth of the coaches? Many of these teams coaches do hype their team up like they supposed to because it helps with recruiting. I see many of these young ladies during the AAU season that cant live up to the hype. So how would you real rank teams or players if you never seen them. I understand you can go to Nike TOC and see many of these teams but not like the espn actually talk to the players and watch them play all over the nation. How can you rank teams word from word of mouth??? I know of another writer at local tournament this tell somebody that this certian does has nothing to watch!!!! This teams has 12 D1 players and carries 13 players!!!!!!! Why is that I dont understand the thinking if almost all the players going to D1 schools big and small!!!!!!!
You made some good points. Let talk about traveling out of the state to watch these teams? Or do you good by word of mouth of the coaches? Many of these teams coaches do hype their team up like they supposed to because it helps with recruiting. I see many of these young ladies during the AAU season that cant live up to the hype. So how would you real rank teams or players if you never seen them. I understand you can go to Nike TOC and see many of these teams but not like the espn actually talk to the players and watch them play all over the nation. How can you rank teams word from word of mouth??? I know of another writer at local tournament this tell somebody that this certian does has nothing to watch!!!! This teams has 12 D1 players and carries 13 players!!!!!!! Why is that I dont understand the thinking if almost all the players going to D1 schools big and small!!!!!!!
Clay,
This is what I'm going to say to clarify my point one more time. So what mattered most to Pinewood, beating St Mary's and playing in the Nor Cal Open Final or being ranked by someone who watched them play a handful of times. Ask Doc that question and get back to me. Ask Kelly about a national ranking meaning more or playing Chaminade in the Open Final meaning more. Now any idiot knows that if you are on an Elite level like Duncanville, Paul XI, Clovis West this year, by merely winning your rank goes up. Do you honestly believe that those coaches are spending time worried about where you and others place them. Surely you don't believe that. My team could go 33-2, win a section title, follow that with a state title and you writers and website runners could have us ranked 10th behind a team with 5 loses and no state title. My kids, parents, coaching staff, school, and community would be on cloud nine with what we accomplished. Do you think we would or any other program would be at home sulking because of a ranking? You call yourself a coach and writer, are you trying to sell me that? So Carondelet just beat St. Mary's, if Carondelet is ranked behind them, do you think they care? You can't be that detached from reality. On the flop side does St. Mary's take solace in the fact that we may have lost but we are still ranked higher? Are their ego maniacs out there who thinks that a rankings means something? Yes. Those are the same morons running around AAU tournaments, sandbagging to win a plastic trophy. So once again, any coach worth a damn, who knows what they are doing, could care less what a group of middle aged men or computer program says about their team. They only care about what their team produces on the floor. That and only that tells the true story of how a team feels about their season.
This is what I'm going to say to clarify my point one more time. So what mattered most to Pinewood, beating St Mary's and playing in the Nor Cal Open Final or being ranked by someone who watched them play a handful of times. Ask Doc that question and get back to me. Ask Kelly about a national ranking meaning more or playing Chaminade in the Open Final meaning more. Now any idiot knows that if you are on an Elite level like Duncanville, Paul XI, Clovis West this year, by merely winning your rank goes up. Do you honestly believe that those coaches are spending time worried about where you and others place them. Surely you don't believe that. My team could go 33-2, win a section title, follow that with a state title and you writers and website runners could have us ranked 10th behind a team with 5 loses and no state title. My kids, parents, coaching staff, school, and community would be on cloud nine with what we accomplished. Do you think we would or any other program would be at home sulking because of a ranking? You call yourself a coach and writer, are you trying to sell me that? So Carondelet just beat St. Mary's, if Carondelet is ranked behind them, do you think they care? You can't be that detached from reality. On the flop side does St. Mary's take solace in the fact that we may have lost but we are still ranked higher? Are their ego maniacs out there who thinks that a rankings means something? Yes. Those are the same morons running around AAU tournaments, sandbagging to win a plastic trophy. So once again, any coach worth a damn, who knows what they are doing, could care less what a group of middle aged men or computer program says about their team. They only care about what their team produces on the floor. That and only that tells the true story of how a team feels about their season.
Coach102532
Ranking does have a great meaning in AAU ball. Being rank high brings more scout for the players. Some players would near be seen if they didnt play on the main floor! Maybe you dont understand the competitive put of the game. This is competitive world we live in!!! All jobs and everything is ranked one way or another!!!!!
Ranking does have a great meaning in AAU ball. Being rank high brings more scout for the players. Some players would near be seen if they didnt play on the main floor! Maybe you dont understand the competitive put of the game. This is competitive world we live in!!! All jobs and everything is ranked one way or another!!!!!
Again, I didn't say ranking was more important than winning a state title, or winning at all. But to say it doesn't matter at all is going too far ... it does make a difference, in real ways (getting underdogs fired up because they're playing a ranked team; postseason seeding if done by humans) and in intangible ways (many elite coaches want to be ranked as high as possible and it matters to them, or they wouldn't complain).
I am not claiming ranking is more important than winning. I am claiming that it has some importance to some coaches and some teams. You may call them morons, but some of those coaches who care about rankings are very good coaches. Other coaches, good and bad, don't care, and that's fine too.
Also, are you still saying I rush through rankings and am lazy?
I am not claiming ranking is more important than winning. I am claiming that it has some importance to some coaches and some teams. You may call them morons, but some of those coaches who care about rankings are very good coaches. Other coaches, good and bad, don't care, and that's fine too.
Also, are you still saying I rush through rankings and am lazy?
Respect we aren't talking about AAU ball. We are talking about high school ball. I'm very competitive. Just because I don't believe in rankings doesn't mean I'm not down for competition. I just like teams to get on the floor, field, diamond, pitch, or ice to determine who is better. I don't want people trying to tell me or others who is better.
Clay,
To what you are saying I never called you lazy. I don't know you. If that's your own insecurities shining through don't pass it off on me. So for the fun of it I took a look at this weeks USA Today Top 25. I don't know who does the rankings. I don't know if it's a group. I'm just going by the name attached to the article. Of the 25 teams, 17 states are represented. It's January 11th, are you telling me this is an accurate depiction of the basketball hierarchy in the US? Are you telling me that Jim Halley was able to and traveled to watch these 25 teams play in 17 different states? For example can you, since you are saying that you aren't lazy and rankings matter. Give me concrete evidence, real world reasoning, no fluff.
Destrehan High School is 20-0 and ranked #21
Hamilton Heights Christian Academy is 15-1 and ranked #11
So explain to me why they are ranked this way.
So then I looked at your rankings on Maxpreps you have Hamilton ranked #14 and you don't have Destrehan ranked at all. USA Today has Centennial ranked #4 you have them #11. So of your 25, 21 states are represented. Did you go see all these teams play to be able to give us the gospel about where they should be ranked? Remember you brought lazy in this. Why is Grandview ranked #6 and Mason #13? Is Grandview seven spots better than Mason? Why is Grandview a top ten team and Seton Catholic isn't? You're the journalist who isn't lazy and you do your homework.
Clay,
To what you are saying I never called you lazy. I don't know you. If that's your own insecurities shining through don't pass it off on me. So for the fun of it I took a look at this weeks USA Today Top 25. I don't know who does the rankings. I don't know if it's a group. I'm just going by the name attached to the article. Of the 25 teams, 17 states are represented. It's January 11th, are you telling me this is an accurate depiction of the basketball hierarchy in the US? Are you telling me that Jim Halley was able to and traveled to watch these 25 teams play in 17 different states? For example can you, since you are saying that you aren't lazy and rankings matter. Give me concrete evidence, real world reasoning, no fluff.
Destrehan High School is 20-0 and ranked #21
Hamilton Heights Christian Academy is 15-1 and ranked #11
So explain to me why they are ranked this way.
So then I looked at your rankings on Maxpreps you have Hamilton ranked #14 and you don't have Destrehan ranked at all. USA Today has Centennial ranked #4 you have them #11. So of your 25, 21 states are represented. Did you go see all these teams play to be able to give us the gospel about where they should be ranked? Remember you brought lazy in this. Why is Grandview ranked #6 and Mason #13? Is Grandview seven spots better than Mason? Why is Grandview a top ten team and Seton Catholic isn't? You're the journalist who isn't lazy and you do your homework.
Camaca, of course we care ... why else would we be on the forum? Should we not care?
So Coach, here's my main point: Generalizations can be a problem. It's true that most coaches don't care about rankings, but some do. And many coaches care about rankings, but not nearly as much as they care about winning titles, as you correctly point out. But to say that no elite coaches care about rankings at all is going too far, as I have personal experience with national level, highly successful coaches who do care about the rankings. (Whether they should or not is another issue ...)
Which leads me to rankings ... you generalized from the USA Today rankings, which is by far the weakest of the national rankings, that the people who do rankings are lazy and don't take it seriously. That may be true of Jim Healey, who has to do football, boys' basketball and baseball for USA Today, and doesn't really have time to dig deeply into girls' basketball, but Dan Olson, Chris Lawlor and I all work pretty hard at it.
It's true I don't see all the teams, but that's not necessarily laziness -- in this case, it's simply financial. I do see a fair amount of the top teams, and I have connections around the country, but MaxPreps isn't going to invest $10,000 in a travel budget for girls' rankings. You could argue that I then shouldn't do them at all, but I have faith in the process I use, and have used, for a long time.
I started to write out the process I use, but it's way too long for a post, so I'll do Grandview and Centennial.
Grandview went to the Nike TOC and beat Seton Catholic head to head ... and since rule one is that the scoreboard doesn't lie, it's pretty easy to put them ahead of Seton Catholic.
Centennial is a more complicated case because of strength of schedule. They lost to No. 1 Paul VI and No. 2 Clovis West so they have no bad losses (they're supposed to lose to teams better than them). Their early season win over Our Lady of Good Counsel seemed good at the time, but Good Counsel has struggled, as has Riverdale Baptist, another team that hasn't lived up to expectations. So Centennial's best win is over Seton Catholic, by three, and Seton Catholic is ranked. Mitty slots ahead of Centennial because of its win over Clovis West (common opponent), but behind St. John's because St. John's beat Mitty head to head.
I could go down the rest of the Xcellent 25 and give you the reasons for where they are -- and reasonable people could certainly disagree -- but every ranking is carefully thought out and not done randomly.
That said, I make no claim that they are accurate, in the sense that if they had a playoff, that's how it would work out, but the same is true of all rankings, from college to the NFL. Rankings are for fun, and some take them more seriously than others, but just because they are for fun doesn't mean that everyone who does them just writes names down blindly.
Final point: You're a coach, so you know that high school teams can look very different night to night, and even if I flew to Milwaukee to see Rufus King play one game, that wouldn't give me the complete picture of how good they are. They might have been shooting well, or had the flu, or whatever. For me, the results are what matters, not perception, and in so far as possible, I try to use game scores, strength of schedule and results to determine the rankings so I can be as objective as possible.
So Coach, here's my main point: Generalizations can be a problem. It's true that most coaches don't care about rankings, but some do. And many coaches care about rankings, but not nearly as much as they care about winning titles, as you correctly point out. But to say that no elite coaches care about rankings at all is going too far, as I have personal experience with national level, highly successful coaches who do care about the rankings. (Whether they should or not is another issue ...)
Which leads me to rankings ... you generalized from the USA Today rankings, which is by far the weakest of the national rankings, that the people who do rankings are lazy and don't take it seriously. That may be true of Jim Healey, who has to do football, boys' basketball and baseball for USA Today, and doesn't really have time to dig deeply into girls' basketball, but Dan Olson, Chris Lawlor and I all work pretty hard at it.
It's true I don't see all the teams, but that's not necessarily laziness -- in this case, it's simply financial. I do see a fair amount of the top teams, and I have connections around the country, but MaxPreps isn't going to invest $10,000 in a travel budget for girls' rankings. You could argue that I then shouldn't do them at all, but I have faith in the process I use, and have used, for a long time.
I started to write out the process I use, but it's way too long for a post, so I'll do Grandview and Centennial.
Grandview went to the Nike TOC and beat Seton Catholic head to head ... and since rule one is that the scoreboard doesn't lie, it's pretty easy to put them ahead of Seton Catholic.
Centennial is a more complicated case because of strength of schedule. They lost to No. 1 Paul VI and No. 2 Clovis West so they have no bad losses (they're supposed to lose to teams better than them). Their early season win over Our Lady of Good Counsel seemed good at the time, but Good Counsel has struggled, as has Riverdale Baptist, another team that hasn't lived up to expectations. So Centennial's best win is over Seton Catholic, by three, and Seton Catholic is ranked. Mitty slots ahead of Centennial because of its win over Clovis West (common opponent), but behind St. John's because St. John's beat Mitty head to head.
I could go down the rest of the Xcellent 25 and give you the reasons for where they are -- and reasonable people could certainly disagree -- but every ranking is carefully thought out and not done randomly.
That said, I make no claim that they are accurate, in the sense that if they had a playoff, that's how it would work out, but the same is true of all rankings, from college to the NFL. Rankings are for fun, and some take them more seriously than others, but just because they are for fun doesn't mean that everyone who does them just writes names down blindly.
Final point: You're a coach, so you know that high school teams can look very different night to night, and even if I flew to Milwaukee to see Rufus King play one game, that wouldn't give me the complete picture of how good they are. They might have been shooting well, or had the flu, or whatever. For me, the results are what matters, not perception, and in so far as possible, I try to use game scores, strength of schedule and results to determine the rankings so I can be as objective as possible.
Yes. This.
That was my point all along, they are more for us who are not on the court.
Personally, I was not trying to attack Clay or the job that he does, as I think you do just fine and you do your hw. I do agree that blanket statements dont fit everyone.
This is probably more where I was coming from...
Of course. It's not like rankings are objective facts out there in the world. They are subjective opinions based on data, just like betting on football games or buying stocks.
Naturally, I'd prefer "carefully thought-out opinion" to "guess," as it's much more than a flip of the coin -- but it's a long way from certainty (if there is such a thing) as well.
Clearly or maybe not so clearly I was joking. Typically those that complain about rankings, either a biased for their team or a biased against others
I thought endless arguing about ranking was tiresome, but I've come to see it as a harmless (no fatalities reported yet) game played, with words, among adults and children, some participating, some watching. hey, if it's fun, do it. if it's no fun, don't.
if rankings affect kids' self worth, time for their coaches or parents to let them know what really matters. in high school girls' basketball, it's about physical and mental effort, teamwork, comportment (win or lose) and a whole bunch of other things. win/lose or ranking just don't change who you are, and most girls who play sports, particularly a sport as complex and demanding as basketball, deserve esteem.
if rankings affect kids' self worth, time for their coaches or parents to let them know what really matters. in high school girls' basketball, it's about physical and mental effort, teamwork, comportment (win or lose) and a whole bunch of other things. win/lose or ranking just don't change who you are, and most girls who play sports, particularly a sport as complex and demanding as basketball, deserve esteem.
Jaymel911 or Norcalprep
You want CN to be number 1 so bad but never happen. Brookside is looking for games in Feb. Will Travel even to Santa Rosa!!!!!!!! I see they have an opening in there schedule too!!!!! Ready for anybody and everybody!!!!! Put them up or shut up!!!!!!
Winetot
Same thing for you too!!!! Read above since all of you are in the same box as square as it gets!!! When was the last time CN beat Brookside???? BROOKSIDE CAME TO THE HOUSE OF CN AND WENT ON THAT YEAR TO STATE!!!!!!! I know why they dont want to play because of seeding after Brookside wins on the road again in Santa Rose!!!!!! Like I said before PUT THEM UP OR SHUT UP!!!!! You all on notices now!!!!!!!
You want CN to be number 1 so bad but never happen. Brookside is looking for games in Feb. Will Travel even to Santa Rosa!!!!!!!! I see they have an opening in there schedule too!!!!! Ready for anybody and everybody!!!!! Put them up or shut up!!!!!!
Winetot
Same thing for you too!!!! Read above since all of you are in the same box as square as it gets!!! When was the last time CN beat Brookside???? BROOKSIDE CAME TO THE HOUSE OF CN AND WENT ON THAT YEAR TO STATE!!!!!!! I know why they dont want to play because of seeding after Brookside wins on the road again in Santa Rose!!!!!! Like I said before PUT THEM UP OR SHUT UP!!!!! You all on notices now!!!!!!!
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Respect - Brookside was asked to come back to CN tourney and chose not to. Pico asked to be placed in a lower bracket for WCJ this year. Why? Because McDonald is gone and you aren't as good. I have money that says Pico will ask to not play Carondelet next week in Moraga . I will give odds. Pico understands his team, you obviously have rose colored glasses.
Dang RESPECT,
you have a serious inferiority complex with CN don't you? Why the infatuation?
1) the NCS only allows our teams to play 26 games...so CN's schedule is set. And that schedule has been set since November...Unlike your unorganized squad who is still searching for games.
2) Did PICO change his cell #?? because CN has called BC AT LEAST 10 TIMES OVER THE LAST 2 YEARS AND EVERY TIME CN CALLED BC TO PLAY WE NEVER GOT A RETURN PHONE CALL.
NO RETURN CALL....NO TEXT....NOTHING!!
3) ready for anybody and everybody??? its well documented that PICO opted DOWN in the WCJ.
and I wouldn't be surprised if BC doesn't try to get out of the CLET game next week.
YOU CANT BE THE BEST IF YOU AVOID THE BEST!!!!
and by the way Cardinal Newman prefers to play 5 on 5 basketball...not 4 on 5.
oh...by the way St Marys Stockton has a game open still. Why don't you play them? I'm sure SMS would like to slap their step sister around a little. But then again why would SMS want to play Stocktons JV team.
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Northbay
Dam wish CN had more games but I guess not. This section need to make a standard games to be the same for each section. He dont answer because how they ws teeat by the fans. But I seen that change cant beat them jion them tyoe Theory. Hopefully see you in the playoffs. Brookside will only need 4 players after half time. Speed and physically kills!!! lol lol
Dam wish CN had more games but I guess not. This section need to make a standard games to be the same for each section. He dont answer because how they ws teeat by the fans. But I seen that change cant beat them jion them tyoe Theory. Hopefully see you in the playoffs. Brookside will only need 4 players after half time. Speed and physically kills!!! lol lol
So if he don't answer why you asking to play? You, my man, are brilliant. What are you going to say next week when BC has their game changed to avoid Carondelet? Are you capable of saying these high level AAU girls are just paying money to be told they are good???!
Northbay
I rather watch the JV( Brookside) play then watch The Matrix( CN) over again!!! LOL
Wintot
Nobody needs to tell them about how the play but the scouts like that because all players going D1!!!! Look at the stats lines on Brookside and you will see 4 players average double figures!!!!! What other teams does that this year???? The only people they need to impress is the Scouts that are giving the scholarships!!!!!!!
I rather watch the JV( Brookside) play then watch The Matrix( CN) over again!!! LOL
Wintot
Nobody needs to tell them about how the play but the scouts like that because all players going D1!!!! Look at the stats lines on Brookside and you will see 4 players average double figures!!!!! What other teams does that this year???? The only people they need to impress is the Scouts that are giving the scholarships!!!!!!!
Note, the sun is down and the words are not being typed as smoothly as during the daylight... hiccup........ The problem with RespectBB has to do with his flavor of drink.
BTW RespectBB CN would slap you silly like MM did last year. CN will beat you with speed and fundamentals.
So now you guys did not get a fair shake at CN either. Name a place where you all went, got beat and it was not a conspiracy?
BTW RespectBB CN would slap you silly like MM did last year. CN will beat you with speed and fundamentals.
So now you guys did not get a fair shake at CN either. Name a place where you all went, got beat and it was not a conspiracy?
