Fixing the system

[ClayK]

Like the weather, everyone complains about California's playoff system, but no one does anything about it.

Coaches, however, can start the reform process at their league meetings. Put together a proposal, have the coaches vote yes, and push it on to the ADs. Then you have to agitate a little bit to make sure that the ADs hand it off to the section office, and from there something can actually get done.

But without that first step at a coach's meeting, nothing will change.

 

[Chsmatt33]

I know during covid, a coaches organization formed that I wouldn't go as far to call it a union, but it was uniting coaches to help guide them through and how to deal with the restrictions put in place for covid protocols. If that can be revitalized in some form to help coaches unite behind some sort of proposal to reform the state and sections playoff systems I think would definitely be beneficial.

 

[carsonjrt]

You must be referring to BABCA, and I agree, the work they did to get the athletes back on the court during and post COVID was pivotal for student athletes. They probably do have the clout to push for change....here's to hoping.

 

[ClayK]

Actually I wasn't. Each league has the power to introduce proposals to their section. but they have to go through the bureaucratic often frustrating process.

It took a group of us about 2 and a half years to get the Open into NCS.

 

[northbaybbguru]

Actually I wasn't. Each league has the power to introduce proposals to their section. but they have to go through the bureaucratic often frustrating process.

It took a group of us about 2 and a half years to get the Open into NCS.

Let's get the NCS Open to 8 teams Clay! Pool play...same as the CCS.

 

[ClayK]

The key to that is more NorCal bids, which is up to CIF.

 

[northbaybbguru]

The key to that is more NorCal bids, which is up to CIF.

D6 with 10 teams gets 4 bids..dumb

Pull 2 from D6 and give to Open.

One could argue (successfully I'd imagine) in the meetings that 8 open would make the D1 and D2 sections more competitive and thus get the votes to make the change.

 

[ClayK]

So how will you get the D5 and D6 principals to vote for cutting their own entries to NorCals?

And why are Open and D1 teams more deserving of postseason experience than D5 and D6? It could be argued that the top girls get plenty of opportunity to play in big events, but the girls who play in D5 and D6 very seldom do.

 

[northbaybbguru]

So how will you get the D5 and D6 principals to vote for cutting their own entries to NorCals?

And why are Open and D1 teams more deserving of postseason experience than D5 and D6? It could be argued that the top girls get plenty of opportunity to play in big events, but the girls who play in D5 and D6 very seldom do.

I'm not saying the D6 participants would vote for it. I'm saying there'd be enough teams in D1-4 that would be behind the idea to get it passed.

 

[ClayK]

But again, why are players from big schools more deserving of the experience?

And also, there are a lot of D5 and D6 schools, and many principals aren't that fond of athletic powerhouses.

 

[northbaybbguru]

But again, why are players from big schools more deserving of the experience? And also, there are a lot of D5 and D6 schools, and many principals aren't that fond of athletic powerhouses.

But again, why are players from big schools more deserving of the experience?

And also, there are a lot of D5 and D6 schools, and many principals aren't that fond of athletic powerhouses.

There are TWENTY FOUR teams in D6 in the NCS! Why in the world are we giving them FOUR bids to the norcals???

They can't even fill out the D6 bracket? 10 teams in the bracket!

AND there is no D6 state championships game.

Yes...there are more deserving teams in the higher divisions.

This seems like an " everybody deserves a trophy" mentality at its core.

 

[smmustanggirlhoops]

There are TWENTY FOUR teams in D6 in the NCS! Why in the world are we giving them FOUR bids to the norcals???

They can't even fill out the D6 bracket? 10 teams in the bracket!

AND there is no D6 state championships game.

Yes...there are more deserving teams in the higher divisions.

This seems like an " everybody deserves a trophy" mentality at its core.

Ferndale didn’t have to play a game. Bye, Forfeit, NorCal. Lol

 

[northbaybbguru]

Ferndale didn’t have to play a game. Bye, Forfeit, NorCal. Lol

Ferndale didn’t have to play a game. Bye, Forfeit, NorCal. Lol

There u go! Ferndale didn't have to even play a game.

9 teams in D6..4 go.

What a absolute joke. Still think its fair Clay? Are they still "deserving"?

 

[northbaybbguru]

There u go! Ferndale didn't have to even play a game.

9 teams in D6..4 go.

What a absolute joke. Still think its fair Clay? Are they still "deserving"?

A team who's resume is good enought to be placed in an 8 team Open and get an automatic bid to NorCals is the VERY DEFINITION of a team earning their way there and "deserving ".

 

[ClayK]

You have convinced me on Division 6. Just two.

So here’s a thought…

There are two kinds of high school teams: First, those that, shall we say, are committed to athletic success. (I can’t say “recruiting” because that’s slander, according to some.)

The second group is everyone else.

It used to be pretty fair to say that the first group was comprised solely of private and parochial schools. But we have seen some public schools get into the “committed to athletic success group”, which is great. If you want to compete, why not?

So really, the best way to set up postseason is to separate the first group from the second.

The basic assumption is that schools committed to athletic success will have more talent and be more successful on the court. In short, their MaxPreps ratings should reflect that they work hard to excel at athletics.

The next step then, is to take the top 48 ranked Max Preps teams and remove them from section playoffs. At the end of the regular season, those 48 go directly into the NorCal Open. (You could go to 64 if you want, or down to 32. The idea is simply to level the playing field so that teams committed to athletic success are facing other teams committed to athletic success.)

This group’s three-week postseason goes Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday and then the championship game on Saturday. (Yes there’s a week between the final two games, but back when we arrived on horse and buggy, that’s the way it was. It worked fine. Not great, but fine.)

Now the remaining teams are all grouped by enrollment. They return to playing schools of similar size and without those programs committed to athletic success, the playoffs will be what the original setup was intended to be.

Those teams, however, that are placed into the Open will complain, and justifiably so. Team number 48 has zero chance of winning the state title. (On the boy’s side upsets might well be more likely, which would make it even more fun.).

So let’s reward the Open teams. First, they get a banner to hang in the gym. Second, every player and coach is given a properly sized T-shirt, sweatshirt, or some item of apparel to mark their participation in the Open. Players also get a pin or a small plaque. Finally, all those teams should be honored at NBA games with a chance to tour the arena, get pictures with a couple players, and get on the floor at halftime to be introduced. That experience is something special and the teams that don’t make the Open will not get it. Is that enough to make team 48 wish it had been team 49? Hard to say, but there’s no guarantee team 49 is going to win the Division I state title.

Also I would designate the Open champion as the only state champion. All others are Division champions. Any team finishing in the top eight gets another banner for the gym.

Fire away …

 

[kiddman32]

I like the proposal, Clay...

My only issue is using the MaxPreps rankings, which often suck, even late in the season. MaxPreps needs to get up to speed... and maybe bringing in other services, like the Massey ratings. Those are used in many states, some officially, some not.

I'm sure there are others out there, but I don't know whether they look at the MaxPreps rankings and put their spin on things, or whether they each have their self-designed and independent ranking systems.

Overall, I do like automated rankings as a concept, since they are very unlikely to have any favoritism involved.

What I would like to see is to have the CIF research and then pick three ranking systems to use... then take the consensus of these to determine rankings for the playoffs. That would be a start, then we could go to Clay's system... The main drawback, of course, would be funding all this.

 

[Cranky29er]

I like Clay’s proposal though a tweak might be to use league championship final or top 2 as the ticket to entry to the Open tourney for each section using MP to seed and add higher ranked teams that were upset to fill in. The rest play in the Champions tourney using MP to seed.

 

[northbaybbguru]

Im a fan of a single state champion and a 128/64 or? bracket..

BUT

That's such a radical change that of course it would never be approved. Whereas my simple tweek of moving 2 from D6 and add to the Open is a minor change and would have a much better chance of being approved. Especially if the right coaches /ADs were behind the proposal that could get others schools to follow along..

 

[Peninsula Pete]

I'm a fan of Clay's proposal. Qualifying for Open should be something worthy of being triumphed. Not something to avoid. I love the notion of figuring out how to praise it, including it being absolutely worthy of a banner. And also totally agree with the Division title designation for others. It's just real and doesn't water down what a state championship means. Great solution. How do we do it?

I also applaud the distinction made about "commitment to athletic success" versus "schools that recruit". We had a healthy discussion on this topic a year ago where I thought there was consensus on this board that a successful program where good players want to go and even having a loosely affiliated aau program as a feeder are both NOT recruiting. Conversely, bad talking another school, coach, program or offering special treatment in the way of promises, PT, dollars, living and transportation IS recruiting. I believe there are schools that are committed to athletic success that DO recruit and some that do NOT. I don't think it's accurate or responsible to lump them all together as "those who recruit". Thanks for the rewording.

 

[Smallveteran]

You have convinced me on Division 6. Just two.

So here’s a thought…

There are two kinds of high school teams: First, those that, shall we say, are committed to athletic success. (I can’t say “recruiting” because that’s slander, according to some.)

The second group is everyone else.

It used to be pretty fair to say that the first group was comprised solely of private and parochial schools. But we have seen some public schools get into the “committed to athletic success group”, which is great. If you want to compete, why not?

So really, the best way to set up postseason is to separate the first group from the second.

The basic assumption is that schools committed to athletic success will have more talent and be more successful on the court. In short, their MaxPreps ratings should reflect that they work hard to excel at athletics.

The next step then, is to take the top 48 ranked Max Preps teams and remove them from section playoffs. At the end of the regular season, those 48 go directly into the NorCal Open. (You could go to 64 if you want, or down to 32. The idea is simply to level the playing field so that teams committed to athletic success are facing other teams committed to athletic success.)

This group’s three-week postseason goes Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday and then the championship game on Saturday. (Yes there’s a week between the final two games, but back when we arrived on horse and buggy, that’s the way it was. It worked fine. Not great, but fine.)

Now the remaining teams are all grouped by enrollment. They return to playing schools of similar size and without those programs committed to athletic success, the playoffs will be what the original setup was intended to be.

Those teams, however, that are placed into the Open will complain, and justifiably so. Team number 48 has zero chance of winning the state title. (On the boy’s side upsets might well be more likely, which would make it even more fun.).

So let’s reward the Open teams. First, they get a banner to hang in the gym. Second, every player and coach is given a properly sized T-shirt, sweatshirt, or some item of apparel to mark their participation in the Open. Players also get a pin or a small plaque. Finally, all those teams should be honored at NBA games with a chance to tour the arena, get pictures with a couple players, and get on the floor at halftime to be introduced. That experience is something special and the teams that don’t make the Open will not get it. Is that enough to make team 48 wish it had been team 49? Hard to say, but there’s no guarantee team 49 is going to win the Division I state title.

Also I would designate the Open champion as the only state champion. All others are Division champions. Any team finishing in the top eight gets another banner for the gym.

Fire away …

Clay I see you have a great passion for the sport. Fantastic. I like how you present from a perspective that represents everyone.

In regards to your playoff system plan - I am not a fan of it if I understand it correctly

Your proposal is have the top 48 teams in nor cal enter into a season ending tournament ? Single elimination . End of story ?

 

[ClayK]

That's how it used to be. That's how the NCAA tournament is. That's how most states run their high school tournaments. Win or go home...

 

[Smallveteran]

Probably only works if their is a portal

Definitely would want to think about the effect that comes with this change

 

[510sportsfan]

You have convinced me on Division 6. Just two.

So here’s a thought…

There are two kinds of high school teams: First, those that, shall we say, are committed to athletic success. (I can’t say “recruiting” because that’s slander, according to some.)

The second group is everyone else.

It used to be pretty fair to say that the first group was comprised solely of private and parochial schools. But we have seen some public schools get into the “committed to athletic success group”, which is great. If you want to compete, why not?

So really, the best way to set up postseason is to separate the first group from the second.

The basic assumption is that schools committed to athletic success will have more talent and be more successful on the court. In short, their MaxPreps ratings should reflect that they work hard to excel at athletics.

The next step then, is to take the top 48 ranked Max Preps teams and remove them from section playoffs. At the end of the regular season, those 48 go directly into the NorCal Open. (You could go to 64 if you want, or down to 32. The idea is simply to level the playing field so that teams committed to athletic success are facing other teams committed to athletic success.)

This group’s three-week postseason goes Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday and then the championship game on Saturday. (Yes there’s a week between the final two games, but back when we arrived on horse and buggy, that’s the way it was. It worked fine. Not great, but fine.)

Now the remaining teams are all grouped by enrollment. They return to playing schools of similar size and without those programs committed to athletic success, the playoffs will be what the original setup was intended to be.

Those teams, however, that are placed into the Open will complain, and justifiably so. Team number 48 has zero chance of winning the state title. (On the boy’s side upsets might well be more likely, which would make it even more fun.).

So let’s reward the Open teams. First, they get a banner to hang in the gym. Second, every player and coach is given a properly sized T-shirt, sweatshirt, or some item of apparel to mark their participation in the Open. Players also get a pin or a small plaque. Finally, all those teams should be honored at NBA games with a chance to tour the arena, get pictures with a couple players, and get on the floor at halftime to be introduced. That experience is something special and the teams that don’t make the Open will not get it. Is that enough to make team 48 wish it had been team 49? Hard to say, but there’s no guarantee team 49 is going to win the Division I state title.

Also I would designate the Open champion as the only state champion. All others are Division champions. Any team finishing in the top eight gets another banner for the gym.

Fire away …

I would argue that there is 3 groups: the teams that are "committed to athletic success" as you kindly phrase at aka at the very least bending the rules if not flat out breaking them, the teams that do things the right way and are committed to athletic success (have a developmental program in place that allows them to be competitive with the kids who attend their school naturally), and then finally the teams that are not committed to athletic success.

The system should be designed to reward as many of the teams in group 2 as possible

 

[ClayK]

The problem with group two is that a competitive coach who wants to build a program will struggle to succeed with just the kids who happen to wander into the gym as freshmen. In addition, you do have to recruit within the school -- and yes, recruit is the right word -- to encourage all the good athletes to play your sport. You'll always get the kids who love basketball, say, but you need that really good athlete who could choose any sport to pick yours.

And really, to have a chance to win a league title you have to get down to the middle school level, and make sure the athletes decide to play for you.

Also, parents believe that the chances of getting a scholarship or any kind of money to offset the enormous costs of college would be increased by playing in a successful program. There's some truth to that, at least enough truth that parents are going to try to find the best place for their child to maximize his or her potential. And usually that's in a winning program, or so they believe.

 

[Smallveteran]

I would argue that there is 3 groups: the teams that are "committed to athletic success" as you kindly phrase at aka at the very least bending the rules if not flat out breaking them, the teams that do things the right way and are committed to athletic success (have a developmental program in place that allows them to be competitive with the kids who attend their school naturally), and then finally the teams that are not committed to athletic success.

The system should be designed to reward as many of the teams in group 2 as possible

Amen to rewarding the athletic directors and coaches in group 2

 

[Smallveteran]

The problem with group two is that a competitive coach who wants to build a program will struggle to succeed with just the kids who happen to wander into the gym as freshmen. In addition, you do have to recruit within the school -- and yes, recruit is the right word -- to encourage all the good athletes to play your sport. You'll always get the kids who love basketball, say, but you need that really good athlete who could choose any sport to pick yours.

And really, to have a chance to win a league title you have to get down to the middle school level, and make sure the athletes decide to play for you.

Also, parents believe that the chances of getting a scholarship or any kind of money to offset the enormous costs of college would be increased by playing in a successful program. There's some truth to that, at least enough truth that parents are going to try to find the best place for their child to maximize his or her potential. And usually that's in a winning program, or so they believe.

Educating students within your own school about the opportunity. Absolutely! Creating opportunities for the community to improve and come together. From within your boundaries. Absolutely!

Their will always be a line that is crossed or stepped on. In reference to what is right and what is wrong. It is how it is minimized, policed and or restructured by leaders. To become more definitive. We can make this very complex with a complete overhaul or we can make minor tweaks to the current system. Lets just make sure we do not hide from reality. Their is big boy ball which unless it is a extremely unique situation/team. Requires a unique educational/athletic offering. To attract and feel more confident in freely making this offer. Open and upper div 1 + top couple teams in each nearby division. Typically all fall into this unique offering category. Not always, Majority!

This is where the tweaks are made - the unique offering/competitive advantage teams should compete with each other .

 

[510sportsfan]

The problem with group two is that a competitive coach who wants to build a program will struggle to succeed with just the kids who happen to wander into the gym as freshmen. In addition, you do have to recruit within the school -- and yes, recruit is the right word -- to encourage all the good athletes to play your sport. You'll always get the kids who love basketball, say, but you need that really good athlete who could choose any sport to pick yours.

And really, to have a chance to win a league title you have to get down to the middle school level, and make sure the athletes decide to play for you.

Also, parents believe that the chances of getting a scholarship or any kind of money to offset the enormous costs of college would be increased by playing in a successful program. There's some truth to that, at least enough truth that parents are going to try to find the best place for their child to maximize his or her potential. And usually that's in a winning program, or so they believe.

100 percent agree that you have to recruit within your school and that is part of being in group 2. 100 percent agree that there has to be some connection with the youth in your community (there is a way to do that within the rules). If you do those things and have a true developmental program where kids get better you will be competitive. And if you are competitive, most kids aren't going to leave to play elsewhere.

The problem is these teams are catching the short end of the stick for the most part right now because of the way the playoffs are designed. 6 teams in open flat out makes no sense, you can't even make a full bracket out of that. Its just to protect the top teams that are mostly breaking the rules from losing early on. The limiting on moving up 2 divisions is ridiculous and all it does is reward D4 and D5 privates that are recruiting players from outside their school because they get top seeds in D2 and D3 instead of having to play the other schools that are recruiting players from outside their school. Meanwhile you have public schools who's base division is 2 or 3 playing in these divisions with what they have to work with in their communities getting bounced early by schools playing by a different set of rules.

So now parents will look at it and think these teams are less competitive than they really are and take their kids out of the community

 

[Smallveteran]

100 percent agree that you have to recruit within your school and that is part of being in group 2. 100 percent agree that there has to be some connection with the youth in your community (there is a way to do that within the rules). If you do those things and have a true developmental program where kids get better you will be competitive. And if you are competitive, most kids aren't going to leave to play elsewhere.

The problem is these teams are catching the short end of the stick for the most part right now because of the way the playoffs are designed. 6 teams in open flat out makes no sense, you can't even make a full bracket out of that. Its just to protect the top teams that are mostly breaking the rules from losing early on. The limiting on moving up 2 divisions is ridiculous and all it does is reward D4 and D5 privates that are recruiting players from outside their school because they get top seeds in D2 and D3 instead of having to play the other schools that are recruiting players from outside their school. Meanwhile you have public schools who's base division is 2 or 3 playing in these divisions with what they have to work with in their communities getting bounced early by schools playing by a different set of rules.

So now parents will look at it and think these teams are less competitive than they really are and take their kids out of the community

Pleasure to read your information. You get it

plan 1 If you allowed 3 division move up, does this help ?

Plan 2

How about 8 team open all qualify . 2 regional spots come from div 6

Plan 3

Div 1 consist of the top 16 rated teams. Regardless of their base division. Open stays top 6 teams. Div 1 receives two extra regional spots. Allocated from Div 6 (whom currently has 4 with minimal team entries. Which is not equitable) Giving div 1 a total of 5 regional spots. Their would be a playoff between the losers of the div 1 quarter finals. The playoff would be for the last remaining regional spot.

* These changes would create an additonal 2 games vs the current number of games. Extra NCS revenue. Win win win

* div 1 31.25% of field will make regionals. You are incentivizing teams to push to make division one..

* if you do not earn div 1 your in a division that has 18.75% chance of making regionals

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

Also I would designate the Open champion as the only state champion. All others are Division champions. Any team finishing in the top eight gets another banner for the gym.

This.
first move, and only move they need to make right now: stop calling everything a state championship. If all they did was that, it would be the right step to making the open mean something.

I think you just keep it small... cuz only a dozen teams in state are in the conversation, and only a handful will likely have a realistic shot at winning it all.

If it goes to plan, and there becomes a demand to make it to the open bracket .,then you expand slowly, while reserving the right to pare back if competitive equity dictates. But once the open means something, and it's the ultimate goal, everything else will fall into place. no more tanking (or more accurately, accusations of tanking), no more soft scheduling.: the teams that want to will shoot to make the open.

Then, you make D1 a true competitive equity tournament for the next 24-32. Then you go enrollment based for d2-6. And you stop calling D1-6 winners 'state champs'. THAT is most important.

no rings. you get a division champ banner and the shirts and hats say 'DIVISION champion'