Huge Enrollment Disparity

[FBAddict]

In light of recent discussions of playoff games with schools of different enrollments, here is one example of a huge Enrollment Disparity!

Tiny enrollment Rio Hondo Prep with 120 students is playing for the SS section D7 championship against the huge enrollment Warren having 3635 students.

The article claims that this game is the greatest enrollment disparity in CIF history. This game makes the enrollment disparity discussion on this board seem silly.

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[observer22]

In light of recent discussions of playoff games with schools of different enrollments, here is one example of a huge Enrollment Disparity!

Tiny enrollment Rio Hondo Prep with 120 students is playing for the SS section D7 championship against the huge enrollment Warren having 3635 students.

The article claims that this game is the greatest enrollment disparity in CIF history. This game makes the enrollment disparity discussion on this board seem silly.

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Interesting that their 2 best players tried to transfer to LBP, but the moves were denied. So someone is policing moves, albeit selectively.

 

[nobody209]

120 student private school "playing up" no problem with that at all.
But please how can a 3200 student school feel good about success in this situation.
From the article: "Warren, which reached the Division 3 final last year, went 3-7 during the regular season this fall and dropped them into Division 7"
What is sports for?

 

[ankleassassin]

120 student private school "playing up" no problem with that at all.
But please how can a 3200 student school feel good about success in this situation.
From the article: "Warren, which reached the Division 3 final last year, went 3-7 during the regular season this fall and dropped them into Division 7"
What is sports for?

to not be afraid. the giants werent afraid when the patriots came in 18-0

 

[PALbooster]

It shows that size of student body no longer matters in high school sports. What the article doesn't point out is that Warren is a 2 point favorite in the game (according to CalPreps). The teams are very evenly matched and for 2024 this is the appropriate level for each team to be playing at..

Today it is all about the emphasis and resources (or lack thereof) that schools focus on their football or athletic programs.

The #2 ranked football team in the country is St. Frances Academy of Baltimore. They have 213 students in a 9-12 co-ed school. Duncanville, TX is the #3 ranked team nationally with 4500 students 8-12 co-ed (roughly 3,600 9-12), Would anyone say if these two schools played this is a mismatch or Duncanville shouldn't feel good about a win because their student body is roughly 17X bigger.

Bringing this closer to home, would anyone suggest it is an issue for St. Francis Watsonville (student body 209) and ranked #49 in the CCS out of 95 schools to play Evergeen Valley (2,762 students) and ranked #84 in the CCS. or it is unfair that St. Francis Watsonville played in the same league as Alisal ranked #42 (2900 students) where they finished tied for 2nd in the league with Alisal winning head to head 33-27.

Size of student body is one of the least relevant statistics in determining how high school sports should be set up for leagues and play-offs today. Kudos to administrators and officials that have recognized that and created competitive equity.

 

[THEOC89]

120 student private school "playing up" no problem with that at all.
But please how can a 3200 student school feel good about success in this situation.
From the article: "Warren, which reached the Division 3 final last year, went 3-7 during the regular season this fall and dropped them into Division 7"
What is sports for?

Agree, private schools are different…. Saint Francis Academy out of Baltimore is a National Top 10 level team and they have around 250 Co-Ed students…. They play the Nations top teams each year including MD, SJB and IMG….

The issue is with these 3 win teams dropping down to lower divisions…. That is just so Rediculous…. Why does a 3 win team deserve to make the playoffs in D7?…. Warren was in the D3 Final last year, so now they drop to D7 because they only have 3 wins?…. what the heck?…..

I am sure there are many other more deserving teams of that playoff spot that are in that division….

 

[ankleassassin]

It shows that size of student body no longer matters in high school sports. What the article doesn't point out is that Warren is a 2 point favorite in the game (according to CalPreps). The teams are very evenly matched and for 2024 this is the appropriate level for each team to be playing at..

Today it is all about the emphasis and resources (or lack thereof) that schools focus on their football or athletic programs.

The #2 ranked football team in the country is St. Frances Academy of Baltimore. They have 213 students in a 9-12 co-ed school. Duncanville, TX is the #3 ranked team nationally with 4500 students 8-12 co-ed (roughly 3,600 9-12), Would anyone say if these two schools played this is a mismatch or Duncanville shouldn't feel good about a win because their student body is roughly 17X bigger.

Bringing this closer to home, would anyone suggest it is an issue for St. Francis Watsonville (student body 209) and ranked #49 in the CCS out of 95 schools to play Evergeen Valley (2,762 students) and ranked #84 in the CCS. or it is unfair that St. Francis Watsonville played in the same league as Alisal ranked #42 (2900 students) where they finished tied for 2nd in the league with Alisal winning head to head 33-27.

Size of student body is one of the least relevant statistics in determining how high school sports should be set up for leagues and play-offs today. Kudos to administrators and officials that have recognized that and created competitive equity.

de la salle has how many students and pitt is well over 3k... yet pitt, or any of these schools have zero shot....
enrollment is skewed cuz how many actual boys are part of that enrollment at warren

 

[PALbooster]

The point is there are no such things as "permanent" or "designated" divisions anymore. Each section sets their play-off criteria and I am not sure what the Southern Section uses for criteria.. Warren finished 3-2 in their league (3rd place). The top team in their league went to D2, the second place team to D5 and Warren the third place team went to D7. Warren went 0-5 in non-league games scheduling teams with current Calprep ratings between 30-53 (Warren now has a 24 rating). Are you saying you would be ok if they were in Division 7 (the Southern section has 14 divisions for 11 man football play-offs) if they scheduled easier non-league games and ended up 5-5 or 6-4 with the same ranking? Are you saying a school of this size should never be in D7. While they are the largest school in the Division they did just beat Yucaipa (size 2,830) and Rio Honda beat King of Riverside (size 2,901).

The fact is from year to year the same school will be in different play off divisions based on how they preformed that year. Again coming back to the CCS which I know much better. Los Gatos has won championships in D1, D2 and D3. Sacred Heart Prep beat Belalrmine for the Open division championship one year and is playing for the D4 championship this year.

Not sure if you are saying:

1. Warren is not deserving to be in play-offs because they are 3-7? If so, change the rules for making the play-offs before the season and I'm sure you will see people schedule accordingly.

2. Warren (and everyone else) should be in preset play-off divisions if they qualify for the play-offs regardless of record or ranking? If so you will get very uneven numbers of teams qualifying for each division if you have set criteria in #1. If you just say the top 8 or 16 in a designated division you get what we had a couple of decades ago of a large number of 70-0 routes with highly mismatched teams in the playoffs or a team designated for a division where they just crush everyone.

3. Who are the more deserving Southern Section teams that should have made the play-offs and/or been in D7 instead of Warren? What is the basis for saying they are more deserving or what division they should be placed in?

 

[THEOC89]

The point is there are no such things as "permanent" or "designated" divisions anymore. Each section sets their play-off criteria and I am not sure what the Southern Section uses for criteria.. Warren finished 3-2 in their league (3rd place). The top team in their league went to D2, the second place team to D5 and Warren the third place team went to D7. Warren went 0-5 in non-league games scheduling teams with current Calprep ratings between 30-53 (Warren now has a 24 rating). Are you saying you would be ok if they were in Division 7 (the Southern section has 14 divisions for 11 man football play-offs) if they scheduled easier non-league games and ended up 5-5 or 6-4 with the same ranking? Are you saying a school of this size should never be in D7. While they are the largest school in the Division they did just beat Yucaipa (size 2,830) and Rio Honda beat King of Riverside (size 2,901).

The fact is from year to year the same school will be in different play off divisions based on how they preformed that year. Again coming back to the CCS which I know much better. Los Gatos has won championships in D1, D2 and D3. Sacred Heart Prep beat Belalrmine for the Open division championship one year and is playing for the D4 championship this year.

Not sure if you are saying:

1. Warren is not deserving to be in play-offs because they are 3-7? If so, change the rules for making the play-offs before the season and I'm sure you will see people schedule accordingly.

2. Warren (and everyone else) should be in preset play-off divisions if they qualify for the play-offs regardless of record or ranking? If so you will get very uneven numbers of teams qualifying for each division if you have set criteria in #1. If you just say the top 8 or 16 in a designated division you get what we had a couple of decades ago of a large number of 70-0 routes with highly mismatched teams in the playoffs or a team designated for a division where they just crush everyone.

3. Who are the more deserving Southern Section teams that should have made the play-offs and/or been in D7 instead of Warren? What is the basis for saying they are more deserving or what division they should be placed in?

1. Yes…. No 3 win team is deserving of being in the playoffs…. You should have to win at least 5 games OR be league Champion of your league if you have less than 5 wins…. Why does everyone have to get a trophy?….

2. There has to be limits…. No team should be a D3 finalist the year before and then Drop down 4 divisions just so they can make the playoffs with only 3 wins…. You shouldn’t be able to drop more then 1 or 2 divisions from where you were the prior year and you should have to win 5 games OR be League Champion of your league

3. I have no idea since I don’t follow D7 So Cal Football, but I am sure if I saw the ranking when the teams were picked I could find a team more deserving then a 3 win team dropping down 4 divisions…. 🤣

 

[NCS707]

Enrollment doesn’t matter for private schools.
Back up here in NCS, Cardinal Newman has less than 600 enrollment and is ranked #4 in the section. St. Vincent is ranked #15 in NCS and has about 160 enrollment, I think last year they were about 130 and beat Wasco (1700 enrollment) in the state bowl.

CN barely lost to San Ramon Valley (2000 enrollment) and St Vincent is playing Sonoma Valley (1100) in NCS D5 final.
In fact I’d argue the smaller private schools in this case should win these games, at the very least compete. They have much more of a reach and population radius to draw from, much more Lee way to “recruit” 8th graders, and don’t have English Learner/low income populations close to public schools. Football, and winning football, is a recruiting tool to keep the school open! It’s not an emphasis in the vast majority of public schools in California, especially the Bay Area.

Until you’ve went to, worked at, or spent time at a public you won’t understand.


Where I see the issue is small PUBLIC, specially rural schools. They get who they get, no opportunity for transfers, in many places most of the student population is low income or 1st generation American. They usually can’t or shouldn’t compete against a larger public school with a bigger pool to draw from.

 

[Cal 14]

Agree, private schools are different…. Saint Francis Academy out of Baltimore is a National Top 10 level team and they have around 250 Co-Ed students…. They play the Nations top teams each year including MD, SJB and IMG….

The issue is with these 3 win teams dropping down to lower divisions…. That is just so Rediculous…. Why does a 3 win team deserve to make the playoffs in D7?…. Warren was in the D3 Final last year, so now they drop to D7 because they only have 3 wins?…. what the heck?…..

I am sure there are many other more deserving teams of that playoff spot that are in that division….

No, there actually aren't. Largely because there are no divisions in the SS until the playoffs are set.

One odd thing about the SS is the number of very small leagues. 4 teams is not unusual. Both in the SS and SDS, entire leagues advance to the playoffs. Aside from the Trinity, league play should probably matter to a certain degree. There should be a rule that last-place teams can't advance. This would ensure teams from lower leagues would get more representation.

 

[THEOC89]

No, there actually aren't. Largely because there are no divisions in the SS until the playoffs are set.

One odd thing about the SS is the number of very small leagues. 4 teams is not unusual. Both in the SS and SDS, entire leagues advance to the playoffs. Aside from the Trinity, league play should probably matter to a certain degree. There should be a rule that last-place teams can't advance. This would ensure teams from lower leagues would get more representation.

The SS needs to have a rule that you can’t drop more then 2 divisions down from the prior year….

LBP dropping from D2 to D4 is reasonable, and they at least had a winning record….

But Dropping from D3 to D7 and getting in with only 3 wins is absurd…. If Downey couldn’t make it in to the D5 playoffs with 3 wins then why do they deserve to be in D7?…. 🤷‍♂️

There has got to be limits, and give other teams that had winning seasons a chance rather then dropping the same teams down multiple divisions every year just to get them in the playoffs….

 

[Cal 14]

The SS needs to have a rule that you can’t drop more then 2 divisions down from the prior year….

LBP dropping from D2 to D4 is reasonable, and they at least had a winning record….

But Dropping from D3 to D7 and getting in with only 3 wins is absurd…. If Downey couldn’t make it in to the D5 playoffs with 3 wins then why do they deserve to be in D7?…. 🤷‍♂️

There has got to be limits, and give other teams that had winning seasons a chance rather then dropping the same teams down multiple divisions every year just to get them in the playoffs….

I think movement up and down by 2 divisions from previous year is reasonable, although some sort of rolling average may need to be included due to 'one great year'. Though I don't think that enrollment should be used for this (looking at you NCS).

At the same time, you don't want to completely punish teams that schedule up and reward those who schedule down just for wins.

 

[aztecpadre]

Agree, private schools are different…. Saint Francis Academy out of Baltimore is a National Top 10 level team and they have around 250 Co-Ed students…. They play the Nations top teams each year including MD, SJB and IMG….

The issue is with these 3 win teams dropping down to lower divisions…. That is just so Rediculous…. Why does a 3 win team deserve to make the playoffs in D7?…. Warren was in the D3 Final last year, so now they drop to D7 because they only have 3 wins?…. what the heck?…..

I am sure there are many other more deserving teams of that playoff spot that are in that division….

SFA is a different story. They go to that school specifically to be football with their millionaire coach that supports the school. Nothing wrong with that. Shit, if I could do that I would. Just a different animal all together.

 

[bella123]

Of the 3635 students at Warren, I’d guess no more than 11 can be on the field at the same time, unless the rules have changed.

I’d take a roster with 20 mediocre to good football players to one with 70 crappy ones. Enrollment numbers alone are so overrated.

 

[remc]

Of the 3635 students at Warren, I’d guess no more than 11 can be on the field at the same time, unless the rules have changed.

I’d take a roster with 20 mediocre to good football players to one with 70 crappy ones. Enrollment numbers alone are so overrated.

Agree that strictly judging by enrollment numbers is skewed. More depends on the school administration and how desirous they are for athletic success. Will parents and students buy into it? Will the school emphasize hiring proven successful coaches? Lastly, is the physical demographic of the student body going to routinely be talented enough to achieve athletic success? How big of a role will recruitment of talent play into it? Not really an issue for private schools, but we’ve now got lot of “Open Enrollment “ public schools that recruit like the private schools. How do parents that actually are from those districts organically feel about their kids getting less playing time because the school brings in better players who actually live outside of the particular school district? Lot of moving parts to all of this

 

[ankleassassin]

SFA is a different story. They go to that school specifically to be football with their millionaire coach that supports the school. Nothing wrong with that. Shit, if I could do that I would. Just a different animal all together.

He hasn't coached there in 3 seasons. He's the head coach at the University of north Carolina Charlotte.

 

[ankleassassin]

Of the 3635 students at Warren, I’d guess no more than 11 can be on the field at the same time, unless the rules have changed.

I’d take a roster with 20 mediocre to good football players to one with 70 crappy ones. Enrollment numbers alone are so overrated.

Half the students are girls so I never get the enrollment thing.

 

[PALbooster]

As a post script to the above discussion Rio Honda Prep beat Warren 43-16.

To feed some red meat to those thinking the play-offs should be limited to winning teams in the San Diego section. St. Augustine who won the San Diego section D1 championship last year and lost to St. Bonaventure 21-20 in the Southern California D-1A regional. This year St. Augustin went 0-10 in the regular season and finished last without a win inter five team league, but made the D3 play-offs and after three straight play-off wins will play today for the D3 section championship against San Pasqual. Calpreps says they are not ranking San Diego section teams as they disapprove of how the San Diego section utilized them to set their play-offs.

At least Warren finished third inter league with a winning record to make the play-offs. In the Southern section 58% of teams make the play-offs. Not sure about San Diego section play-off rules but it appears that 70 of the 90 schools make the play-offs (78%).

I know in the CCS it is 40 play-off teams for 95 schools (42%).

 

[aztecpadre]

He hasn't coached there in 3 seasons. He's the head coach at the University of north Carolina Charlotte.

I should have clarified. He set them up by paving the way with his donations and bringing in of football studs to the team. The guys used his money in my opion the way its supposed to be used. By gviving back.

 

[ankleassassin]

I should have clarified. He set them up by paving the way with his donations and bringing in of football studs to the team. The guys used his money in my opion the way its supposed to be used. By gviving back.

That is true