MM 64 Pinewood 61
- Thread starter mkbgdns
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We won, so not a big deal, but these two numbers, especially in combination, were a first for me.
Miramonte fouls 15; Pinewood 1. (Well, technically Pinewood fouled three times, but two were in the last few seconds when they were down.)
Pinewood free throws 13; Miramonte 0.
Now this wasn't blatant or obscene. We didn't have kids bouncing off the floor on a regular basis so it wasn't like that. It was really that with the ball in our hands, we never got a single borderline call for 32 minutes.
And we did foul, and they deserved some of those free throws, but some borderline calls definitely went Pinewood's way.
Pretty amazing, really, and a credit to our kids for playing through it. And it just proves a point I make too often: You have to be 10 to 15 points better to make sure the officiating doesn't impact the outcome. We played really well against a very good team in a tough atmosphere and got the win.
Miramonte fouls 15; Pinewood 1. (Well, technically Pinewood fouled three times, but two were in the last few seconds when they were down.)
Pinewood free throws 13; Miramonte 0.
Now this wasn't blatant or obscene. We didn't have kids bouncing off the floor on a regular basis so it wasn't like that. It was really that with the ball in our hands, we never got a single borderline call for 32 minutes.
And we did foul, and they deserved some of those free throws, but some borderline calls definitely went Pinewood's way.
Pretty amazing, really, and a credit to our kids for playing through it. And it just proves a point I make too often: You have to be 10 to 15 points better to make sure the officiating doesn't impact the outcome. We played really well against a very good team in a tough atmosphere and got the win.
You just pointed out what may of us have always thought- that officiating does play a part in the outcome of games. Sometimes it's just how teams style matches up against how officials call their games. Sometimes it is pure incompetence that plays to one team's advantage. But I have also seen games where there does appear to be a blatant targeting and favoritism of one team over the other. We can not discount human nature and the desire to let personal feelings interfere with objectivity.
ClayK, you're usually on point, but think you might be stirring the pot unnecessarily. Pinewood had at least one foul in the first half. Also, MM didn't shoot FTs as Pinewood's defense couldn't stay with MM's pace. Many uncontested drives to basket as well as open jumpers. Can you name a play where you thought a MM shooting foul was missed? I can't. I also thought MM caught a big break late when 3 seconds call was overlooked for a Coach timeout. Shot clock read 26 after MM player secured offensive rebound and got stuck in key.
This was a great game to watch as the teams just played hard. MM almost gave it away dribbling out of bounds to give Pinewood chance to tie. MM made more big shots in the end. That was the difference.
And for the life of me, not sure why Doc wouldn't foul/play aggressive earlier in a close game to have a chance at the foul/FT game. First foul came inside a minute.
When you have smaller kids on a team and smaller refs I've noticed the refs tend to always give the benefit of the doubt to the smaller kids even if they are the ones hacking. It's a shame because size shouldn't always dictate the way calls should go. That type of stuff needs to be fixed. Call it both ways or don't call it at all.
Big, strong, athletic skilled girls powering thru the fouls to finish. Hacked across forearms and face and no calls. Weaker, smaller & less talented girls drive 100mph and launch themselves into the bigger more skilled defender and get the call everytime.
Happens all the time.
Hate it...
Happens all the time.
Hate it...
who is responsible for hiring the officials? the league or host team? i watched some of the video. not sure why there are only 2 officials, it should have been 3 for this level of competition. and i've seen one of the officials in a few other games, he's pretty bad. i didn't watch enough to see any bad calls, but from seeing this guy and the fact that there were only 2, doesn't seem good
The officiating has been very very inconsistent this season. The state of officiating in HS sports is not good. I have heard coaches and fans complain about the poor officiating more than ever this season. Yes, the officials do have a definite influence over the outcome of games. There is very little evaluation and education of officials going on. If there are poor officials out there, there is no recourse, no way for coaches to voice their concerns. Too many officials lack communication skills, too many lack feel for the game, too many don't understand time and score.
There should be a "hands on" mandatory clinic for all officials. The main goal should be to teach the importance communication and humility, that all their calls aren't the best calls. To be able to admit they may have missed a call or they will look for the next call. Then put a ball in a referees hands and a defender on them and show them what dislodgement looks and feels like. Show them what a travel looks like and the types of very typical foul calls and travel calls to look for in positions on the floor. Referees should go to watch HS practices to see what is being taught as far as footwork fundamentals and defensive fundamentals. The coaches and players are working very hard all season and the officials should work just as hard to get better.
There should be a "hands on" mandatory clinic for all officials. The main goal should be to teach the importance communication and humility, that all their calls aren't the best calls. To be able to admit they may have missed a call or they will look for the next call. Then put a ball in a referees hands and a defender on them and show them what dislodgement looks and feels like. Show them what a travel looks like and the types of very typical foul calls and travel calls to look for in positions on the floor. Referees should go to watch HS practices to see what is being taught as far as footwork fundamentals and defensive fundamentals. The coaches and players are working very hard all season and the officials should work just as hard to get better.
Pinewood had one foul in the first half ... and none in the second until the two intentional ones late.
And there were missed calls that benefited both teams, just as in any game. (The out-of-bounds call after a bump on the Miaramonte point guard with 30 seconds or so left was pretty crucial. Incidental contact means the contact did not impact the play -- unless our point guard just dribbled out of bounds on her own, the bump clearly impacted the play.)
There wasn't anything blatant, as I said, but over 32 minutes of high-level basketball, played with intensity and physicality, it's pretty unusual for one team to have only one foul.
And hey, we won -- but the disparity was pretty amazing, which is why I brought it up.
And there were missed calls that benefited both teams, just as in any game. (The out-of-bounds call after a bump on the Miaramonte point guard with 30 seconds or so left was pretty crucial. Incidental contact means the contact did not impact the play -- unless our point guard just dribbled out of bounds on her own, the bump clearly impacted the play.)
There wasn't anything blatant, as I said, but over 32 minutes of high-level basketball, played with intensity and physicality, it's pretty unusual for one team to have only one foul.
And hey, we won -- but the disparity was pretty amazing, which is why I brought it up.
Part of the problem is the dearth of new young officials. Associations across the country are having a very difficult time recruiting new blood. Going to become an increasingly difficult issue.
Too little pay, too much heat from players, coaches and players. Younger people do not want to put up with the aggravation.
Could be a very serious situation moving forward.
Too little pay, too much heat from players, coaches and players. Younger people do not want to put up with the aggravation.
Could be a very serious situation moving forward.
Believe it or not, annual training and certification requires exactly what you describe. You have no idea how hard officials work to prepare.
Consider your post. Unrealistic expectations from coaches, fans. It no wonder we have a hard time recruiting.
Imagine assistant coaches filling in when the shortage becomes untenable. We're closer than you think.
Want to help and be part of the solution? Sign up or refer those who care about serving the game. There's a HS clinic in June on the Peninsula. I'll look forward to seeing you out there
mother... i requested your input over on the boys forum regarding a play... please advise... its under the dublin vs doughtery valley article.
to be fair... alot of parents think their princesses are alot better than they want to admit... all that money spent on aau ball and they think their kid is diana or sue... that aint it cap... each game a team will walk away saying the officials were terrible and a team will say they did well. i have never lost a game because of a ref. nor did i ever see my coaches criticize.. i did lose because i didnt box out, make free throws or honor the ball. refs cant help you there.
Here's what drives me crazy: The ref is on the baseline, perfectly positioned, four feet from the play. He makes the call. The coaches on the opposite bench, 70 feet away, complain. The fans, none of whom have read a rule book and all of whom have no angle on the call, go crazy.
Please. He's four feet away ...
Please. He's four feet away ...
Here's the other thing, 99% of coaches and fans have no idea how refs divide up the court and who is responsible for what calls. How many times have you seen a ref farthest away from the play make a call while the ref closest and right in front seemingly misses the call? Additionally, 2 person ref teams area's of responsibilities are completely different than 3 person teams. This link is interesting explaining 3 person crews: http://sites.psu.edu/eng202cpoder/wp-content/uploads/sites/11519/2014/05/techdescr.pdf
or how about a ref 4 feet from the play on the baseline and the other trail ref makes the call at half court? That actually happens more often than not. Refs are human and make mistakes. The GOOD refs acknowledge the mistake and will tell a coach, "My bad..I may have missed that call". In most cases, it defuses the situation.
There was a ref in the contra costa association that was a decent ref but never ever thought he was always right and above reproach. I know his first name. was Sal...great guy and well respected ref.
should be mandatory reading. every parent thinks each of the 3 refs are looking at the same thing. and they always yell... OVER THE BACCCCCKKKKKKKKK
when my daughter was playing high school, with my encouragement she reffed rec league games, and she got how hard it is. never saw her complain about a ref's call. more "fans" should give it a whirl.
when I hear howls of outrage around me, I have to bite my tongue not to point out how many feet we all are from the play. I suppose I could speak up if we lived in a state where I could come armed.
when I hear howls of outrage around me, I have to bite my tongue not to point out how many feet we all are from the play. I suppose I could speak up if we lived in a state where I could come armed.
Which isn't even correct verbiage. There is no "over the back" in the rule book
Some very good points on officiating. I always try to hold my judgment until I have time to watch the tape. A lot of times I find myself seeing it differently or seeing how the official may have had a 50/50 on it when I watch it back. There are still blown calls, there will be. Consistency is the key and the ability to communicate. In 26 years as a head coach, there have only been a couple officials that I felt had an agenda. Most times it was just a bad call. Most officials work their butts off and are trying to the best job they can. Errors will happen.
they still look at you astonished when you tell them that.
I have watched many, many games in the company of friends of mine who are referees. Guess who critiques (complains about) calls more than parents, coaches, and fans. I used to love to watch games with Curtis Russell. He was a classic! (RIP buddy.)
Same with "reaching in". At least "over the back" describes the illegal contact.
Especially in today's game, and especially with two officials, the folks calling out "three seconds" from the stands are really missing the point.
First, you have to gain an advantage for it to really matter, and only a big-time post threat gains any advantage from staying too long -- and how many big-time post threats have you seen this year?
And second, if one of two refs is watching for three seconds, she's missing much more important action that has a much bigger impact on the game.
First, you have to gain an advantage for it to really matter, and only a big-time post threat gains any advantage from staying too long -- and how many big-time post threats have you seen this year?
And second, if one of two refs is watching for three seconds, she's missing much more important action that has a much bigger impact on the game.
I once saw him stop a game completely (one he was not reffing) and correct a call. Plus he got to put one of his trainees on blast which he loved to do. He was a good one.
