NorCal OPEN Division candidates
- Thread starter Stance1
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I doubt Bellarmine beats St. Francis so it probably doesn't matter but there is no point in having an open tourney for CCS if winning it doesn't hold weight... you cant seriously tell me serra would deserve open consideration over bellarmine because they had a better regular season and beat them in the regular season, bu then bellarmine beat them when it actually counted... take neither, fine.. but if you take another ccs team it has to be bellarmine IMO...
and for the record I've absolutely loathed bellarmine since my days as a public high school kid in san jose... just trying to apply some logic to the situation
and for the record I've absolutely loathed bellarmine since my days as a public high school kid in san jose... just trying to apply some logic to the situation
If you look into it, it actually seems like it would be really easy to do - especially for Open teams knocked out in the first round. Use last year's bracket for an example. The NorCal Open teams were:
1 - O'Dowd (Div-III)
2 - Monte Vista (Div-I)
3 - Moreau (Div-III)
4 - Folsom (Div-I)
5 - El Cerrito (Div-II)
6 - Serra (Div-II)
7 - Modesto Christian (Div-I)
8 - St. Francis (Div-II)
So the four NCS teams in the open allowed Albany, Freedom, Encinal and San Marin into NorCals. Now imagine if instead O'Dowd, Monte Vista, Moreau and El Cerrito had been included as round one teams in their respective divisions as a Div-III 1 seed, a Div-I 1 seed, a Div-III 2 seed and a Div-II 1 seed. Every one of those seeds were given first round byes in NorCal anyway, so when all but O'Dowd lost, they would have slid into the second round of their division tourney. The O'Dowd win means that the 8-9 game in round 1 got a bye in round 2. Virtually no disruption. The other team that got knocked out in the 1st round was St. Francis, who could easily have had a first round bye (there were SIX of them in Div-II last year!). I don't see how this is a bad idea at all.
As for the teams knocked out in round 2, I think it's doable to have a place holder through 1 more round, but it gets more complicated. Why not let the two teams knocked out in round 2 play each other for a sort of NorCal Open bronze medal game? At least that way there's nothing to lose in challenging your team to try to enter the Open and, in fact, you're rewarded for it.
I actually like the idea of a 3rd/4th place game. We get to see one more great game and those teams good enough to be in open stay in the public eye a bit longer.
Sheldon was suspended for two years, I think one criteria for going to open has to be making NorCal tourney in past couple seasons, with their suspension I don't think they qualify. Salesian I bet is in as 7 or 8 seed
Tomorrow will be interesting! We have six locks (Moreau, DLS, Folsom, MC, Sacramento, St. Francis,). Who else goes? Serra and Salesian are very possible. Maybe Sheldon.
As for seeding, of the six locks, two of them won't even get a home game. How do you seed the teams?
De La Salle - 28-2. Early blowout win over Serra and three wins at the MaxPreps Holiday Classic. Losses are to Bishop Gorman and Centennial. Almost certainly a high seed.
Folsom - 27-4. Beat St. Francis in January and split with Modesto Christian, but the loss was in the SJS Championship, so they'll be behind Modesto. Is the win over St. Francis enough for a home game?
Modesto Christian - 30-1. Avenged the one loss, which as the season opener against Folsom. Probably the top seed.
Moreau Catholic - 25-4. Great wins over Sierra Canyon and Sacramento, but split the season series with Newark. They tore up NCS D3 and seem to be playing their best basketball as of late. The two big wins probably get them a good seed, but maybe the committee will recall their performance last year and think twice.
Sacramento - 29-1, but the one loss is to Moreau. 20-point win over St. Francis in the Gridley Tournament in December. Arguably the best player in Northern California in Solomon Young. They might get stuck with the 3 or 4 seed.
St. Francis - 25-2, 14-0 in WCAL, by far the top CCS team. However, the two losses are Folsom (by 4) and Sacramento (by 20, but SF didn't have Thomas). Solid wins over El Cerrito and an early blowout win over Oak Ridge, who gave Modesto Christian a game in the SJS quarterfinals. Despite a great résumé, they might not even get a home game.
So how do you rank those six? I see Modesto Christian as the top team. That part isn't too hard. I think Folsom gets the 5 seed and St. Francis gets the 6. It's a very good field, and this Open bracket will be a lot of fun, even if Southern California has significantly stronger teams.
As for seeding, of the six locks, two of them won't even get a home game. How do you seed the teams?
De La Salle - 28-2. Early blowout win over Serra and three wins at the MaxPreps Holiday Classic. Losses are to Bishop Gorman and Centennial. Almost certainly a high seed.
Folsom - 27-4. Beat St. Francis in January and split with Modesto Christian, but the loss was in the SJS Championship, so they'll be behind Modesto. Is the win over St. Francis enough for a home game?
Modesto Christian - 30-1. Avenged the one loss, which as the season opener against Folsom. Probably the top seed.
Moreau Catholic - 25-4. Great wins over Sierra Canyon and Sacramento, but split the season series with Newark. They tore up NCS D3 and seem to be playing their best basketball as of late. The two big wins probably get them a good seed, but maybe the committee will recall their performance last year and think twice.
Sacramento - 29-1, but the one loss is to Moreau. 20-point win over St. Francis in the Gridley Tournament in December. Arguably the best player in Northern California in Solomon Young. They might get stuck with the 3 or 4 seed.
St. Francis - 25-2, 14-0 in WCAL, by far the top CCS team. However, the two losses are Folsom (by 4) and Sacramento (by 20, but SF didn't have Thomas). Solid wins over El Cerrito and an early blowout win over Oak Ridge, who gave Modesto Christian a game in the SJS quarterfinals. Despite a great résumé, they might not even get a home game.
So how do you rank those six? I see Modesto Christian as the top team. That part isn't too hard. I think Folsom gets the 5 seed and St. Francis gets the 6. It's a very good field, and this Open bracket will be a lot of fun, even if Southern California has significantly stronger teams.
Ethan, its going to be interesting..... here is how I see it playing out.
1. Modesto Christian- Very impressive big win against Folsom. 30 wins in a row. I think Streak is right on this one.
2. DLS- Could be a coin toss with MC on these positions... Both teams impressive in section finals.
3. Moreau- Breezed through D3 and hold a win over Sac High.
4. Sac High- D3 SJS champs in a close win over Antelope.
5. Salesian - D4 champs
6. Folsom- Falls with loss to MC
7. St Francis
8. Sheldon (I'm pretty sure they are eligible)
1. Modesto Christian- Very impressive big win against Folsom. 30 wins in a row. I think Streak is right on this one.
2. DLS- Could be a coin toss with MC on these positions... Both teams impressive in section finals.
3. Moreau- Breezed through D3 and hold a win over Sac High.
4. Sac High- D3 SJS champs in a close win over Antelope.
5. Salesian - D4 champs
6. Folsom- Falls with loss to MC
7. St Francis
8. Sheldon (I'm pretty sure they are eligible)
Off of Legends list I would.
Put St.Francis at #5
Salesian to #7
And I would say Monte Vista gets it over Sheldon. Monte vista went open last year and previous state champs D1. What has Sheldon done? They were on probation? May even take Weston Ranch over Sheldon, big time victory over Manteca.
Put St.Francis at #5
Salesian to #7
And I would say Monte Vista gets it over Sheldon. Monte vista went open last year and previous state champs D1. What has Sheldon done? They were on probation? May even take Weston Ranch over Sheldon, big time victory over Manteca.
Oh i see...... YOUSEECHIEF and THEY CALL ME COACH are the same Handle. Joined same time in 2011 and this is only 4th post ever for coach. Sheldon was not suspended for 2 years.
Also Monte Vista is one of the most Qualified teams and should be placed. 2014 State Champ. 3 straight NCS finals and 2x winner. Last year in the open.
Also Monte Vista is one of the most Qualified teams and should be placed. 2014 State Champ. 3 straight NCS finals and 2x winner. Last year in the open.
Also How does A section like the CCS get away with having an open playoffs then ducking the Norcal open. They get 3 extra games win or lose and their section will only send 1 team to the open. In South top 4 teams in south open playoffs automatically go to open.
You might be right about MV. I've seen them play a few times this year and just not impressed. Coach Jones has done an awesome job as always but my top 8 are above.
I thought the Open Division was created to move all the private school powers out of their respective divisions so that public schools would get a shot at winning a state title. Makes sense to keep teams like Folsom and Sheldon in D-I so they can win a title for NorCal at the state, and I think that would make Sac High a lock to win in D-2. Let the privates have the Open and allow the publics to win more hardware.
Kids don't care about hardware. Only the schools. Besides I think it's good for fans/recruits/coaches to give the best teams in the state a chance to compete against each other. They get more looks and good experience. Besides who cares about hardware if it comes with an asterisk?
HEAT
As usual, you put your brilliant mind to work and came up with the wrong answer. I really like you and your passion for high school basketball, but sometimes I wonder if you haven't been hit in the too many times. I am in no way affiliated with THEY CALL ME COACH. I was asking a question because you seemed to be in the know. I was simply seeking clarification.
Keep up the good work Clouseau
As usual, you put your brilliant mind to work and came up with the wrong answer. I really like you and your passion for high school basketball, but sometimes I wonder if you haven't been hit in the too many times. I am in no way affiliated with THEY CALL ME COACH. I was asking a question because you seemed to be in the know. I was simply seeking clarification.
Keep up the good work Clouseau
Call it what you want but look at the thread from an outside perspect. They call me coach makes a statement. His 4 th post in 5 years. I respond and then you see chief who coincidentally (i guess) responds to my post for a clarification. Who by the way opened his norcal account almost to the day 5 years ago that TCMC opened his
LL33, your evaluation may be a little too harsh. I wonder if you only saw the DLS games. A team that lost its entire starting squad, plays in the most competitive league, with 6 of its losses to top 50 teams (3 to DLS, Freedom, CV, Granite Bay), arguably, this is a highly impressive record and reflective of a very good team with an outstanding coaching staff.
Yes, DLS did a great Job stopping Fadal, Lashells and Rust in the last game. The first meeting was arguably won by MV excepting for a last minute slip. DLS had a lucky win and even struggled in the second game to hold on to a win after building a good initial lead. Overall, the NCS final was a highly defensive and quite frankly boring game. Only Peters had an offensive night. Take him out of the equation, it would have been a very low scoring game. Fadal-10, Lashells-6, Rantinho-12, combined for 28 points. Excepting Peters who I believe had 16, all other players were in single digit. This reflects a strong defensive game and should not be used in measuring the overall ability of MV.
Now, taking a broader analysis of all NCS teams D1 to D5, only 3 teams (MC, DLS, Salesian) could be viewed as comparable or better than MV this year and they should all go Open.
If I were involved with MV I would recommend they find a way to play D1 if they have the option to opt out of playing in the Open division as they are in an excellent position to get another state championship.
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I like the following seeding for Open Division
1. Modesto Christian
2. De La Salle
3. Sacramento High
4. Moreau Catholic
5. St. Francis
6. Folsom
7. Sheldon (Salesian if Monte Vista over Sheldon)
8. Salesian (Monte Vista - alternative to Sheldon)
This avoids any rematches until the finals. Modesto Christian I think has earned the top seed. They avenged their only loss, and are 3-1 against this hypothetical bracket. De La Salle is firmly placed at #2. It gets a little tricky from here. Sac High lost to Moreau, but Moreau has four losses to Sac High's one. You really could probably switch the two if you want to go with head to head. I pick St. Francis over Folsom even though Folsom won their only meeting. St. Francis won the CCS Open division, and have two less losses overall. Again this avoids a potential rematch for Folsom with MC until the finals should they beat Sacramento High. I've got Sheldon at 7. They lost in the SJS D1 semifinals, but they played in a tougher bracket than Salesian having played a close game against the projected #1 seed. If you don't like Sheldon at #7 because they lost in the Semis, than you can take Monte Vista at #8, bumping Salesian to #7. Just one man's opinion. The seeding committee has their work cut out for them.
1. Modesto Christian
2. De La Salle
3. Sacramento High
4. Moreau Catholic
5. St. Francis
6. Folsom
7. Sheldon (Salesian if Monte Vista over Sheldon)
8. Salesian (Monte Vista - alternative to Sheldon)
This avoids any rematches until the finals. Modesto Christian I think has earned the top seed. They avenged their only loss, and are 3-1 against this hypothetical bracket. De La Salle is firmly placed at #2. It gets a little tricky from here. Sac High lost to Moreau, but Moreau has four losses to Sac High's one. You really could probably switch the two if you want to go with head to head. I pick St. Francis over Folsom even though Folsom won their only meeting. St. Francis won the CCS Open division, and have two less losses overall. Again this avoids a potential rematch for Folsom with MC until the finals should they beat Sacramento High. I've got Sheldon at 7. They lost in the SJS D1 semifinals, but they played in a tougher bracket than Salesian having played a close game against the projected #1 seed. If you don't like Sheldon at #7 because they lost in the Semis, than you can take Monte Vista at #8, bumping Salesian to #7. Just one man's opinion. The seeding committee has their work cut out for them.
Outside of Monte Vista and De La Salle, the EBAL appears to have had a down year. It's true that MC's league isn't very good outside of MC and Beyer, but I pick MC on the strength that they have won 30 in a row, their road to the SJS Championship included two state top 20 teams, and have a 7-1 record against Norcalpreps top 20, with five double digit wins in those games.
This discussion has been really good and i cannot argue with any of the analysis. However, I have two questions/comments:
!) Why does the CCS have an Open Division and only send one representative to the NorCal Open? If you make the CCS Open Section Final you should be open. Either the Bells or the Padres should be Open.
2) I do not agree with the process of "back filling". The NCS back fills. Therefore, you have teams that did not make the NCS semi finals advancing to NorCals. I do not believe the SJS back fills. Do not know about the CCS.
!) Why does the CCS have an Open Division and only send one representative to the NorCal Open? If you make the CCS Open Section Final you should be open. Either the Bells or the Padres should be Open.
2) I do not agree with the process of "back filling". The NCS back fills. Therefore, you have teams that did not make the NCS semi finals advancing to NorCals. I do not believe the SJS back fills. Do not know about the CCS.
I don't see how Monte Vista goes up. They have losses to Foothill-Pleasaton, Riordan and Granite Bay (a team Sheldon buried in the playoffs). Solid team that will win some in D1. No where close to an Open Division team.
I don't see 8 Open teams. You can't include El Cerrito (3 losses to Salesian). I think Weston Ranch is a good name but realistically they'd have no shot if they were pulled up. Salesian lost to WR. Serra is a good team but I don't see elite by any means. MV shouldn't be in the same division as DLS (no the same level)
I honestly see 5 and a half teams with Saint Francis being the half: MC, other MC, DLS, Sac, Folsom, SF
I honestly see 5 and a half teams with Saint Francis being the half: MC, other MC, DLS, Sac, Folsom, SF
I'm going to assume Chino Hills runs the table. I think its the south year as well. They would go 35 or 36-0. Where does that cement them among the best ever from CA? I'm serious too. They have played a national schedule as well. They are punishing good teams.
The best team I've ever seen from calif (and I've been to basically every modern era state tourney) is the Artesia team that went 34-1. I want to say they finished #1 in Nation or #2. I know they were back to back state champs. Had Harden- NBA, Derek Glasser- ASU asst record, Renardo Sidney- 6"10 bust but should have been in the NBA, Malik Story - USC, Treyman Johnson, etc.... They dismantled a very good St Marys of Stockton team that had 3 D1 players on it.
The best team I've ever seen from calif (and I've been to basically every modern era state tourney) is the Artesia team that went 34-1. I want to say they finished #1 in Nation or #2. I know they were back to back state champs. Had Harden- NBA, Derek Glasser- ASU asst record, Renardo Sidney- 6"10 bust but should have been in the NBA, Malik Story - USC, Treyman Johnson, etc.... They dismantled a very good St Marys of Stockton team that had 3 D1 players on it.
