OPEN DIVISION SUGGESTION.....Att.: section commissioners

[northbaybbguru]

The GURU's suggestion.....

1) Let EVERY team play in their proper Norcal division....
2) play the games out until we have a Norcal winner at each level.
3) THEN have all the section commissioners sit down and choose 1 representative
from the 5 Norcal winners to represent the North as their OPEN champion.
4) The runner up from the division takes the place in the state title game
of the OPEN game participant.
5) Do the same in the south.

What will this do?
1) It will keep teams from tanking their sections to avoid the open.
2) It will give the borderline teams that get thrown into the open a chance at a state run.

I'm sure a southern section team like TROY would love this format..as they keep getting thrown into the OPEN division despite NEVER winning a section title in their school history.

Or how about Miramonte who is never going to win a state title despite being a top 5 team in the state the last 2-3 yrs. I'm sure there are other examples I am missing.

That's my open plan.....

and let the criticism commence...lol

 

[Willtalk]

There is a big problem in respect to 2, 3 and 4. in that this will solve nothing and basically will keep the same system in place. What is to stop anyone from making sure they do not win their division and shoot for second place against a team that will surely get pulled into Open. This format will still not stop anyone from tanking to stay out of Open. This is essentially already being done. The commissioners already chose who goes into Open. Open division is not just limited to section winners in their divisions. The section playoffs are only one criteria that is being used. It is still up to the commissioners discretion.

 

[NinoBrown]

I find it funny people wanna change the criteria once their teams are good enough but not great enough to come out the open. You can't change the criteria now, it would be unfair to the Miramonte's and the St. Ignatius' and the Saint Mary's of Berkeley's of the world. Teams who were damn good, likely would have won state titles or had a better chance to win, but didn't because they were thrusted into the open. the open was a great idea but was formatted badly and now it is what it is. And yes Cardinal Newman has a very good chance to be thrusted into the open this year, only to play SMS in the first or second round and go home with nothing. It is what it is.....

 

[northbaybbguru]

I find it funny people wanna change the criteria once their teams are good enough but not great enough to come out the open. You can't change the criteria now, it would be unfair to the Miramonte's and the St. Ignatius' and the Saint Mary's of Berkeley's of the world. Teams who were damn good, likely would have won state titles or had a better chance to win, but didn't because they were thrusted into the open. the open was a great idea but was formatted badly and now it is what it is. And yes Cardinal Newman has a very good chance to be thrusted into the open this year, only to play SMS in the first or second round and go home with nothing. It is what it is.....

Nino..

regardless of who I root for doesn't change the fact that the system is flawed. And just because teams in the past got screwed why should the teams in the future? Shouldn't we strive to correct the flaws?

and as far as CN going open this year I think that is a bit of a stretch. Afterall CN has NEVER even played in a D4 section title game...let alone win one. And with the likes of Salesian, SMB in NCS D4, to win the section would be quite the accomplishment for a little squad out of the Sonoma county wine country. And besides Dublin and Vanden BOTH won their sections last year for the 1st time (with impressive records) and didn't get pulled to the open...what makes you think CN would?

lets fix the sytem...we can make it better...just my opinion

 

[northbaybbguru]

There is a big problem in respect to 2, 3 and 4. in that this will solve nothing and basically will keep the same system in place. What is to stop anyone from making sure they do not win their division and shoot for second place against a team that will surely get pulled into Open. This format will still not stop anyone from tanking to stay out of Open. This is essentially already being done. The commissioners already chose who goes into Open. Open division is not just limited to section winners in their divisions. The section playoffs are only one criteria that is being used. It is still up to the commissioners discretion.

willtalk....

I think you misunderstood my proposal....

I'm not talking section winners...I'm talking NORCAL winners...The 5 teams going to the 5 state championship games.
Choose 1 team out of those 5 to represent the North in the open championship. And do the same in the south.

 

[jaymel911]

System is flawed. I am not sure what teams we are accusing of tanking but the three teams, SM Stockton, Miramonte & SM Berkeley have been in the open division all three years and those three teams should be applauded for their superiority over the entire region during the open era.

open teams this year are SM Stockton, Brookside, Vanden, McClatchy, Mitty, pinewood, bishop O'Dowd and Salesian

 

[Willtalk]

Northbaybbguru-- Yes I certainly did misunderstand your proposal. The commissioners would then just pick the Open division representative from the 5 division winners. That would certainly work until there were two or more teams of relatively equal skill. Then the ones not picked would be claiming that they got robbed. Last season while still a shoo in for SMS in the North, it would not have been that simple in the south. Who do you send MD or Chaminade? There will always be controversy. At least the way it is you know who to send. They did have a pre- open tournament in the south last season, were there was a form of a play in to who went to the Open tournament and who stayed in their divisions. That might be a better format but would eliminate the better teams from competing for their own section championships since at that time they would be competing in the preliminary Open trials.

I think the problem with the decision as to who goes open and who doesn't that it was not initially predicated on overall fairness. Although it had been suggested for some time, it's initiation was motivated primarily to eliminate/punish the private schools and certain elite programs from dominating the playoff brackets in Girls basketball. That along with the promotion of mediocrity in athletics to match the past philosophy promoted in our public schools in academics. This was evident on how it was rushed into practice with out a real working system in place. They probably should have got all their ducks in order and established a rational process before implementing it. Rather they used that first season as a means to carry out their own philosophic agenda's.

If they really needed to rush into it then for the first season they could have just made it voluntary to see how that would have played itself out. Rather than putting Brookside Christian in to play BOD in the first round. If it would have ended up with just a two team playoff between SMS and BOD so what. I believer when the concept of the creation of an Open Division was first considered it was to be purely voluntary. Which actually is not a bad idea. Let the winners of the five divisions volunteer. If more than one wants to go then the commissioners decide. If no one volunteers then the commissioners also decide. Probably D5 teams should not even be considered. While there have been D4 teams in both the North and 'South that could be considered capable of being the best in the state ( Windward-SMB,Salesian, etc) , no D5 team has ever fit that criteria. It's just too much of a drop in respect to the size of the school to over come. .

 

[northbaybbguru]

Jaymel911...

I agree SMS, Miramonte and SMB all deserve praise. And I here that "tanking' goes on in the south quite a bit.
It cant be proved, but its definitely suspected. And there has been accusations up here in the north also, although there were extenuating circumstances in at least one occasion that were legit.

I think Miramonte will be open, most definitely. I would replace McClatchy with Miramonte in your prediction. The loss of Gigi will be too much to overcome for McClatchy. They will still be good, but not open good.
And I think Brookside lost too much to graduation. I don't think they get there. Which leaves 1 'wildcard" to fill out the field.

 

[ClayK]

I like the idea proposed by someone last year:

1) All sections have Open divisions
2) The only team that can claim a California state championship is the Open champion. All other Division champions are just that -- Division champions and that's what their banner says.
3) The top two teams in each section's Open Division advance to the Open competition (or maybe only one); the others revert to their natural divisions but cannot win a state title.

So tanking would still occur, to a certain extent, but there would be a significant difference between winning D3, say, and winning the Open.

 

[Streak One]

I like the idea proposed by someone last year:

1) All sections have Open divisions
2) The only team that can claim a California state championship is the Open champion. All other Division champions are just that -- Division champions and that's what their banner says.
3) The top two teams in each section's Open Division advance to the Open competition (or maybe only one); the others revert to their natural divisions but cannot win a state title.

So tanking would still occur, to a certain extent, but there would be a significant difference between winning D3, say, and winning the Open.

This is a good format. I talked last year about every section having an open division and sending teams from there. There is no perfect system, but a good start is having every section play by the same rules. Under this system, there would be some great sectional matchups highlighting regional rivalries.

 

[mkbgdns]

n/m, too complicated

 

[RespectBBGame]

I think any team that is select to go to the open is a winner in its self. Thats saying the teams are better then the other teams in their division. Even if they dont win a State championship in the Open they are still winners.

Some teams that are select to the open division sometimes dont belong but it brings them teams back to reality. Some teams just dont belong in the open.

I think the open should be change to private schools. Private division, D1, D2, D3, D4 and D5. There wont be no complaints who should be in which division because that would give public schools a chance to win more tiles

 

[northbaybbguru]

Northbaybbguru-- Yes I certainly did misunderstand your proposal. The commissioners would then just pick the Open division representative from the 5 division winners. That would certainly work until there were two or more teams of relatively equal skill. Then the ones not picked would be claiming that they got robbed. Last season while still a shoo in for SMS in the North, it would not have been that simple in the south. Who do you send MD or Chaminade? There will always be controversy. At least the way it is you know who to send. They did have a pre- open tournament in the south last season, were there was a form of a play in to who went to the Open tournament and who stayed in their divisions. That might be a better format but would eliminate the better teams from competing for their own section championships since at that time they would be competing in the preliminary Open trials.

I think the problem with the decision as to who goes open and who doesn't that it was not initially predicated on overall fairness. Although it had been suggested for some time, it's initiation was motivated primarily to eliminate/punish the private schools and certain elite programs from dominating the playoff brackets in Girls basketball. That along with the promotion of mediocrity in athletics to match the past philosophy promoted in our public schools in academics. This was evident on how it was rushed into practice with out a real working system in place. They probably should have got all their ducks in order and established a rational process before implementing it. Rather they used that first season as a means to carry out their own philosophic agenda's.

If they really needed to rush into it then for the first season they could have just made it voluntary to see how that would have played itself out. Rather than putting Brookside Christian in to play BOD in the first round. If it would have ended up with just a two team playoff between SMS and BOD so what. I believer when the concept of the creation of an Open Division was first considered it was to be purely voluntary. Which actually is not a bad idea. Let the winners of the five divisions volunteer. If more than one wants to go then the commissioners decide. If no one volunteers then the commissioners also decide. Probably D5 teams should not even be considered. While there have been D4 teams in both the North and 'South that could be considered capable of being the best in the state ( Windward-SMB,Salesian, etc) , no D5 team has ever fit that criteria. It's just too much of a drop in respect to the size of the school to over come. .

Willtalk...

in your example the team NOT chosen for the open championship would still be playing for a state title in their division.
So certainly that would take away from the sting from not getting chosen for the open state championship.
Not what that team/fans would want but not a bad consolation.

Honestly, I like Clays idea also with each section having their own open competition. Top 1 or 2 from each section on to the NORCAL open. And the others go back to their Norcal divisions.

1 open STATE title....1 true state title winner. 1 top dog....

5 state division winners.


*** I just don't like the randomness of how they choose the Open representatives...especially since I have no doubt we could choose 5 people from NCP who probably know more than the committee choosing the schools. And would do a better job.

 

[ClayK]

I think any team that is select to go to the open is a winner in its self. Thats saying the teams are better then the other teams in their division. Even if they dont win a State championship in the Open they are still winners.

Some teams that are select to the open division sometimes dont belong but it brings them teams back to reality. Some teams just dont belong in the open.

I think the open should be change to private schools. Private division, D1, D2, D3, D4 and D5. There wont be no complaints who should be in which division because that would give public schools a chance to win more tiles

So Bentley now competes with Pinewood? All private schools wind up in the Open?

As we've discussed, the real issue is which schools, private or public, are serious about being really, really good. Many of those schools recruit, and those are the schools, public or private, that need to be in the Open. To say that Moreau is in the same category as Bishop O'Dowd, or Head-Royce is in the same category as St. Joseph Notre Dame, does not reflect reality.

 

[personalogic]

After completion of division championships at the section level, give all section divisional champions the option to proceed to Norcals in an Open division, or stay in their original divisions. If there are truly competitive teams, they will in most cases choose to compete for Open honors. If only one or two teams are dominant in a particular season, why throw others under the bus just to complete an 8 team bracket?

 

[observer22]

Don't call it The Open Division. Call it something more prestigious such as the State Sweet 16, Power 16 or something with more swag to it so that teams are motivated to make it there rather than try to tank, if they feel it is somehow better to win against lesser teams in the NIT than make it to the Sweet 16 and play against the best for the ultimate state championship.

 

[mkbgdns]

Wait--if marketing is the solution, shouldn't it be called THE ULTIMATE STATE CHAMPIONSHIP!!! for motivational purposes? Unless the season unfolds in a serious departure from expectations, any Section winner other than SMS in Norcal that chooses TUSC!!! doesn't understand odds. Tanking is one thing, pointing a loaded revolver with empty chamber at your foot and pulling the trigger is another, particularly if you can choose not to pick up the the gun. Of course, you could get the marketing media to label those teams who demur CHICKEN! but I think that only works with Marty McFly. Those teams could be accused of not being REAL MEN, but that's not the goal for most high school girls' basketball teams, I think. The current system of non-optional assignment to the Open, presumably by quality, is fair enough.

 

[observer22]

Wait--if marketing is the solution, shouldn't it be called THE ULTIMATE STATE CHAMPIONSHIP!!! for motivational purposes? Unless the season unfolds in a serious departure from expectations, any Section winner other than SMS in Norcal that chooses TUSC!!! doesn't understand odds. Tanking is one thing, pointing a loaded revolver with empty chamber at your foot and pulling the trigger is another, particularly if you can choose not to pick up the the gun. Of course, you could get the marketing media to label those teams who demur CHICKEN! but I think that only works with Marty McFly. Those teams could be accused of not being REAL MEN, but that's not the goal for most high school girls' basketball teams, I think. The current system of non-optional assignment to the Open, presumably by quality, is fair enough.

Your Mats almost knocked them off in 2013 (BOD did beat them) and then they beat them in 2014. The odds sure aren't great but they can be had on any given night. I agree it should stay non-optional even if it is called TUSC. I just want to see the best teams face off against each other rather then in different divisions playing lesser teams.

 

[ClayK]

It's a difficult situation: Elite teams, coaches and schools are measured by state championships, and it's obviously much easier to win one in Division III than in the Open. And 10 years from now, who's going to remember that a really good team lost to a great SMS team in the NorCal semis? And who's going to have a banner up on the gym wall saying "State champion"?

That's why I really like the idea of having the Open Champion being the only state champion -- and maybe every Open team gets a banner on the wall marking their willingness to play at the highest level.

But every year, the Open teams that play in the Open semis would undoubtedly be favorites in their "natural (whatever that means)" divisions.

 

[CW Golden Eagles]

Here's some feedback from the Southern Section (why we are Southern?? I still have no idea, but...)

I like many of the suggestions from above. If the goal of the Open Division is to put the top 16 teams in...the current criteria totally misses the mark. One of the first things that needs to change is the cap of 4 teams from the Southern Section. There are so many outstanding powerhouses down there but after 4 are selected, the others get to drop back to their division. A team like Sierra Canyon can win 3 consecutive state titles in D4 while other teams, not nearly as talented, get pushed up to the Open. If they want the top 16 teams, then take the cap off and get the top 16 teams. 3 years ago, before the Open Division, we won our section and lost in the first round of state by 2. The next year, we win our section again and get pushed up to the Open Division (due in large part to the cap of 4 teams in the Southern Section) and first round get blown out by 35 to Etiwanda. If we had made a deep run the previous year, I would perhaps understand. But when we lose in the first round the previous year, how are we now considered "better" even though we lost 3 starters to graduation. Then last season, we had an entire new starting five and started four sophomores. Going into section playoffs we were ranked around 25th by CalHigh and 32nd by Maxpreps in the State. We win our section and they bump us up to the Open again and give us a 4 seed, indicating we are one of the top 8 teams in the state. How do we jump up 17 and 24 spots in a week and a half? But we have to have a Central Section representative because there are caps on each section...even though some years the teams getting thrown up to the Open Division are no where near that caliber.

The first year, the Southern Section didn't even field all 8 teams. What's the point? I remember the North being upset, understandably so, because they sent their best 8 teams but the South only sent 6 and thus 2 teams were allowed to compete at their divisional level.

I really like the idea of ONE team chosen after NorCal/SoCal section championships are played.

"Tanking" should NEVER be an option and shame on any coach that does it. Yes, if we would have lost our section game the last two years we could have had a realistic shot at competing for a state title. But we would NEVER throw a game. That is absolutely mind blowing to me if anyone has actually done that.

 

[mkbgdns]

observer 22--remember that in 2013 BOD, who had drubbed the Mats by 29(!) in the Section final awaited the winner of that game. Had the Mats been allowed to opt out of the Open, it would have been because of BOD, not SMS. It so happens that SMS is this year's BOD.

As I've said before, Miramonte has been honored by selection to the Open since its inception, and has played with honor and class. Having the best play the best is a great idea. Dominant teams that spend most of their season (except WCAL) beating up weak sisters get a chance to find out how the other half (90%?) live. A program should be able to instill pride in its participants whether there's a banner in the rafters or not. Achievement is not a banner.

 

[ClayK]

There's administrative reality and real reality ...

Administrative reality says

1) All sections are created equal
2) All schools with 1,500 students are the same
3) Coaches scrupulously abide by the rules and would never, never practice out of season or have their entire team playing as a club in the offseason
4) All section commissioners rule on transfers and eligibility in exactly the same way
5) All divisions in all sections are the same (even though they're not, by rule)
6) Section commissioners who choose teams are unbiased and extremely knowledgeable about every playoff team in every division

Real reality says

1) Those sections that have more schools will produce more superior teams
2) Those sections that begin practice in mid-August have a major advantage over those that don't
3) Those sections that allow teams to play more games -- or to count all tournaments as only two games regardless of how many are played -- have an advantage
4) Some areas have more basketball talent than others
5) Some areas have more than a few schools that recruit and take girls' basketball very seriously; some have just one or two
6) A school with 1,500 students in a poor area and no athletic tradition is not remotely equal to other schools with 1,500 students in an affluent area with a major athletic tradition