If on-field performance matters at all then Carmel absolutely should be in the Gabilan. I really hope the league does the RIGHT thing and keeps Carmel up there.
PCAL League realignments ?
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If on-field performance matters at all then Carmel absolutely should be in the Gabilan. I really hope the league does the RIGHT thing and keeps Carmel up there.
Word is Carmel only has 26 guys in the program and may not field a JV. Pretty sure they went down 2 Divisions for a reason. I say bring up Santa Cruz, after all they are a section champion moving towards a State Title!
Blah blah blah. All we heard last year was “omg Carmel’s program is going to collapse in the Gabilan! The school may even shut down! The city might even get annexed by Monterey!” And after all that they did ok. Did they compete for the title? No. But were they outclassed? No. They won two league games, would have won a third had they played Gilroy, had two one point losses, and won a playoff game.
It would be ridiculous to force three schools up to the Gabilan just to make Carmel happy.
Devine has reported that Salinas has upgraded their non-league schedule... by a bunch. They will open against San Ramon Valley and have a game against Valley Christian.
I was hoping they'd take on someone from the WCAL, but I was thinking something like Mitty or St. Ignatius.
Still, they'll learn about themselves a lot more with either of these games than by playing North High.
I was hoping they'd take on someone from the WCAL, but I was thinking something like Mitty or St. Ignatius.
Still, they'll learn about themselves a lot more with either of these games than by playing North High.
Their coaches may have taken my advice. I mentioned to one they should play some of the public schools in the East Bay Athletic league because they are similar in size and public schools and very good tests.
Agree they may have bit a little too much with VC early, and SRV usually reloads and is a physical team.
Gabilan - 9 schools - Palma, Salinas, Aptos, Hollister, Christopher, Alvarez, MVC, Seaside, Alisal
Mission - 8 schools - Carmel, Gilroy, Gonzales, Montery, North Salinas, Santa Cruz, Soledad, Soquel
Cypress - 7 schools - King City, North Monterey County, Pacific Grove, Rancho San Juan. San Lorenzo Valley, Scotts Valley, Watsonville
Santa Lucia - 6 - schools - Greenfield, Harbor, Marina, Pajaro Valley, St Francis, Stevenson
Harker School will be integrated into the Santa Lucia schedule as a non-league game for each of the six teams.
Mission - 8 schools - Carmel, Gilroy, Gonzales, Montery, North Salinas, Santa Cruz, Soledad, Soquel
Cypress - 7 schools - King City, North Monterey County, Pacific Grove, Rancho San Juan. San Lorenzo Valley, Scotts Valley, Watsonville
Santa Lucia - 6 - schools - Greenfield, Harbor, Marina, Pajaro Valley, St Francis, Stevenson
Harker School will be integrated into the Santa Lucia schedule as a non-league game for each of the six teams.
It is time to blow up the PCAL equity football experiment. Go back to regional/school size for football only. This is getting ridiculous.
Is the Santa Lucia still playing 8 man football, hard to tell watching highlights on local news.
Interesting quotes from John Devine's article:
"The three Mission Division tri-champions will join Alvarez, Aptos, Christopher, Palma, Salinas and San Benito to form a nine-team Gabilan Division. “I wish it would have been 10 teams,” Palma coach Jeff Carnazzo said."
“I think it’s straight-up prejudice,” Seaside coach Al Avila said. “This board makes these rules as they go. It’s a joke. There’s no credibility. They should be ashamed of themselves.”
“Me personally, this has more to do with people, who they want to see in the Gabilan,” Carmel coach Golden Anderson said. “The motives are not always in line with the mission statement of the league.”
The objective for Alisal has always been to get to a level where it could compete in the Gabilan Division. Ideally, head coach Cesar Chaidez felt he needed one more year. “It’s tough,” Chaidez said. “I’m having a hard time seeing where they are coming from. But I can only worry about what we control. I’m excited for the challenge.”
Having nine teams did get the approval of several of the coaches in the Gabilan Division, including Salinas coach Steve Zenk. “More local matchups makes it better for fan bases so attendance at games can go back up and we can spark a resurgence in high school sports in the 831,” Zenk said.
Anderson, though, doesn’t see the numbers increasing in football, particularly when schools are thrown in the Gabilan Division. Teams that have been moved to the Gabilan Division in the past five years have all seen their numbers decline. Only two have posted winning records in their first season. It wasn’t sustainable beyond one season. “I know my numbers went down,” Anderson said. “Teams that get moved into the Gabilan Division are not growing their numbers. That’s a concern for the sport.”
"The three Mission Division tri-champions will join Alvarez, Aptos, Christopher, Palma, Salinas and San Benito to form a nine-team Gabilan Division. “I wish it would have been 10 teams,” Palma coach Jeff Carnazzo said."
“I think it’s straight-up prejudice,” Seaside coach Al Avila said. “This board makes these rules as they go. It’s a joke. There’s no credibility. They should be ashamed of themselves.”
“Me personally, this has more to do with people, who they want to see in the Gabilan,” Carmel coach Golden Anderson said. “The motives are not always in line with the mission statement of the league.”
The objective for Alisal has always been to get to a level where it could compete in the Gabilan Division. Ideally, head coach Cesar Chaidez felt he needed one more year. “It’s tough,” Chaidez said. “I’m having a hard time seeing where they are coming from. But I can only worry about what we control. I’m excited for the challenge.”
Having nine teams did get the approval of several of the coaches in the Gabilan Division, including Salinas coach Steve Zenk. “More local matchups makes it better for fan bases so attendance at games can go back up and we can spark a resurgence in high school sports in the 831,” Zenk said.
Anderson, though, doesn’t see the numbers increasing in football, particularly when schools are thrown in the Gabilan Division. Teams that have been moved to the Gabilan Division in the past five years have all seen their numbers decline. Only two have posted winning records in their first season. It wasn’t sustainable beyond one season. “I know my numbers went down,” Anderson said. “Teams that get moved into the Gabilan Division are not growing their numbers. That’s a concern for the sport.”
I believe PCAL is simply following the practice of the other super-leagues of the CCS section. BVAL, SCAL and PAL super-leagues move teams up and down every year according to seasonal outcomes and not at all by enrollment. Why should PCAL be any different? BTW, I must overlooked that the WCAL league is the only one not a part of a super-league these days.
Among various dumb ideas... this has to be the dumbest.
If I were king of the PCAL,
First petition CCS for 1 more Auto playoff birth. Then go to 1 A and 3 B's for a minimum of 2 years. Most schools stay put every 2 years, 1 or 2 may move out of the TCAL and into the league where a team gets moved out of. This also keeps most of the old rivalries in the same same leagues.
MTAL-B (2 Autos)
RLS
Carmel
PG
KC
Gonzales
Soledad
Greenfield
Marina
SCCAL-B (2 Autos)
SLV
Scott's Valley
St Francis CC
Santa Cruz
Harbor
Soquel
Watsonville
Pajaro Valley
TCAL-A (4 Auto's)
Palma
Salinas
Aptos
Hollister
Alvarez
Alisal
MVC
MBL (2 Auto's)
North Monterey County
Monterey
Seaside
Christopher
Gilroy
Rancho San Juan
North Salinas
With the way CCS does playoffs there is no need to have equity divisions, as the teams will be ranked and put into playoffs based upon their CCS points and ranking. I would also be perfectly fine with limiting only 1 Auto qualifier from the 3 "B" leagues. In most years the 2nd place team would make it anyways.
First petition CCS for 1 more Auto playoff birth. Then go to 1 A and 3 B's for a minimum of 2 years. Most schools stay put every 2 years, 1 or 2 may move out of the TCAL and into the league where a team gets moved out of. This also keeps most of the old rivalries in the same same leagues.
MTAL-B (2 Autos)
RLS
Carmel
PG
KC
Gonzales
Soledad
Greenfield
Marina
SCCAL-B (2 Autos)
SLV
Scott's Valley
St Francis CC
Santa Cruz
Harbor
Soquel
Watsonville
Pajaro Valley
TCAL-A (4 Auto's)
Palma
Salinas
Aptos
Hollister
Alvarez
Alisal
MVC
MBL (2 Auto's)
North Monterey County
Monterey
Seaside
Christopher
Gilroy
Rancho San Juan
North Salinas
With the way CCS does playoffs there is no need to have equity divisions, as the teams will be ranked and put into playoffs based upon their CCS points and ranking. I would also be perfectly fine with limiting only 1 Auto qualifier from the 3 "B" leagues. In most years the 2nd place team would make it anyways.
Seriously, this league has jumped the shark. I mean it was a nice concept, but it’s just not working. The alignment should be about what is best for all 30 schools, not the 4 with the best programs and the richest school.
Big question. Why should the Gabilan have 4 automatic qualifiers? They are an A league which means that at least four teams are going to make the play-offs simply on points if they had 0 AQ's.
In 2012, four Gabilian teams made the play-offs...and the only reason the fifth team did not make the play-offs was because they had a 2 - 8 record. Similarly in 2016, "only" four Gabilan teams made the play-offs. But in the other six seasons, five Gabilan teams have made the play-offs each year.
So give the Gabilan 3 AQ's and give the one they gave up to the Cypress. That way the Gabilan has 3 AQ's, both the Mission and Cypress have 2 and the Santa Lucia has 1. Four teams (at least) are still going to make the play-offs from the Gabilan every year and as an A league the odds are they will have 5 play-off bound teams.
By the way, what is the advantage of the Gabilan going to 9 teams. (A) The coaches have less work scheduling non-league games, (B) They play 8 games against other A league teams (and get more points for that) and (C) The Big Four teams now have an extra league opponent they can beat up on and get the points for a win. The premise of both B and C is that playing non-league games is riskier for the Big Four either because their non-league schedule will include a B team or their non-league schedule will have a loss in there which their games against the lower level Gabilan teams will not.
In 2012, four Gabilian teams made the play-offs...and the only reason the fifth team did not make the play-offs was because they had a 2 - 8 record. Similarly in 2016, "only" four Gabilan teams made the play-offs. But in the other six seasons, five Gabilan teams have made the play-offs each year.
So give the Gabilan 3 AQ's and give the one they gave up to the Cypress. That way the Gabilan has 3 AQ's, both the Mission and Cypress have 2 and the Santa Lucia has 1. Four teams (at least) are still going to make the play-offs from the Gabilan every year and as an A league the odds are they will have 5 play-off bound teams.
By the way, what is the advantage of the Gabilan going to 9 teams. (A) The coaches have less work scheduling non-league games, (B) They play 8 games against other A league teams (and get more points for that) and (C) The Big Four teams now have an extra league opponent they can beat up on and get the points for a win. The premise of both B and C is that playing non-league games is riskier for the Big Four either because their non-league schedule will include a B team or their non-league schedule will have a loss in there which their games against the lower level Gabilan teams will not.
Gab should have 5-6 AQ with other leagues getting 1. In theory teams 5-9 in GAB are better then any B team.
Let's see Speed. Gabilan gets 4 AQ's. Yet in the majority of years 5 teams qualify...the fifth team qualifying as At Large. And in the two years that only four teams have qualified, ALL of them would have qualified as At Large on the basis of points alone. So that fact is that the Gabilan...as an A league... really doesn't need any AQ's and in any given year, the top five teams will qualify for the play-offs anyway. They are actually wasted AQ's.
On the flip side, the fact that there are now 9 teams in the Gabilan is no reason to give them more AQ's. Same argument as the paragraph above. The fifth finisher in the league almost always gets in unless they have a horrific record like Christopher in 2012...2 and 8. And over the past 8 seasons the record for the first team that failed to qualify from the Gabilan as an At Large has averaged 3 and 7. Give the Gabilan 6 AQ's and in 2014, Seaside would have made the play-offs with a 1 and 9 record. So if your argument is that the Gabilan should have more AQ's because there are now 9 teams in that division, then you are advocating that teams with 3 and 7 records (or even 4 and 6) should make the play-offs. That is dumb.
On the flip side, the fact that there are now 9 teams in the Gabilan is no reason to give them more AQ's. Same argument as the paragraph above. The fifth finisher in the league almost always gets in unless they have a horrific record like Christopher in 2012...2 and 8. And over the past 8 seasons the record for the first team that failed to qualify from the Gabilan as an At Large has averaged 3 and 7. Give the Gabilan 6 AQ's and in 2014, Seaside would have made the play-offs with a 1 and 9 record. So if your argument is that the Gabilan should have more AQ's because there are now 9 teams in that division, then you are advocating that teams with 3 and 7 records (or even 4 and 6) should make the play-offs. That is dumb.
No, what’s dumb is Carmel whining their way to a lower division, then some self serving Carmel fan arguing that the lower division should get more AQ spots then the stronger division that Carmel ran away from. Really, really stupid idea.
Speed your logic and use of facts to make your point is certainly underwhelming.
The whole point of moving up to the A league is that you get more guaranteed playoff spots due to the increased competition. The whole point of reduced AQs in the lower divisions is the weaker competition. You don't get to have both. Choose one.
The fact that most Gab AQs go to teams that would already qualify is not relevant. Would you suggest that the Gab champ not get an AQ? They'd definitely get an at-large, right?
The real reason that all these teams are in the Gab is because they are trying to avoid having to play RLS in the Santa Lucia. 
Carmel does not control the narrative on this. It appears that this PCAL board is controlled by the big 4 of the Gabilan. They seem to get what they want. If they wanted Carmel back in the Gabilan, Carmel would be back up. Last year they assured Carmel they would not be moved up, day of the decision, 28-2 vote Carmel is moved up.
What they have done by making a 9 team league is essentially created a 2 tier division. Every team is assured of 8 games vs A. league opponents. This will increase their CCS points. Therefore the Gab is almost guaranteed to get 5-6 teams into the playoffs. The Big 4 will qualify for he Auto spots (in most years), now the "bottom 5" can fight for 1 or 2 at large bids.
In the big picture it does not matter who is in what league. The PCAL (Santa Cruz excluded) was very disappointing in their playoffs last year. if they want to be considered a top tier league with in the CCS, they need to do better than 3-8 in the first round of the play offs (2 Victories over other PCAL schools).
Carmel does not control the narrative on this. It appears that this PCAL board is controlled by the big 4 of the Gabilan. They seem to get what they want. If they wanted Carmel back in the Gabilan, Carmel would be back up. Last year they assured Carmel they would not be moved up, day of the decision, 28-2 vote Carmel is moved up.
What they have done by making a 9 team league is essentially created a 2 tier division. Every team is assured of 8 games vs A. league opponents. This will increase their CCS points. Therefore the Gab is almost guaranteed to get 5-6 teams into the playoffs. The Big 4 will qualify for he Auto spots (in most years), now the "bottom 5" can fight for 1 or 2 at large bids.
In the big picture it does not matter who is in what league. The PCAL (Santa Cruz excluded) was very disappointing in their playoffs last year. if they want to be considered a top tier league with in the CCS, they need to do better than 3-8 in the first round of the play offs (2 Victories over other PCAL schools).
The real reason that all these teams are in the Gab is because they are trying to avoid having to play RLS in the Santa Lucia.
Carmel does not control the narrative on this. It appears that this PCAL board is controlled by the big 4 of the Gabilan. They seem to get what they want. If they wanted Carmel back in the Gabilan, Carmel would be back up. Last year they assured Carmel they would not be moved up, day of the decision, 28-2 vote Carmel is moved up.
What they have done by making a 9 team league is essentially created a 2 tier division. Every team is assured of 8 games vs A. league opponents. This will increase their CCS points. Therefore the Gab is almost guaranteed to get 5-6 teams into the playoffs. The Big 4 will qualify for he Auto spots (in most years), now the "bottom 5" can fight for 1 or 2 at large bids.
In the big picture it does not matter who is in what league. The PCAL (Santa Cruz excluded) was very disappointing in their playoffs last year. if they want to be considered a top tier league with in the CCS, they need to do better than 3-8 in the first round of the play offs (2 Victories over other PCAL schools).
Regardless, I find it very annoying that Carmelkyd whined incessantly about being in the Gab, Carmel gets moved down, and now all of a sudden it’s “hey they division Carmel ran gem should get less AQs and the division Carmel is in now should get more.” So self serving. He should take the lighter schedule he cried for and be happy about it.
Speed you should read more closely. I said take one AQ from the Gabilan and give it to the Cypress. Carmel is in the Mission. Don't let your hate cloud your intelligence.
Yea I just skipped over most of the post to be honest, my bad. You’re right, I do HATE the decision to screw over Seaside in favor of Carmel. Carmel should have been in the Gabilan and the fact that they aren’t is an Absolutely trash, indefensible decision by the league.
But extremely rich schools that complain enough typically get their way, so I shouldn’t be surprised.
I don't think this is about which school is richer. Fact is neither Carmel nor Seaside belongs in the Gab but the political power on the committee seems to belong to the Gabilan power schools. So much for equity...
Seaside and Carmel shouldn’t be in the Gab. Schools with high enrollment should be the “sacrificial lambs” and MVC. Coaches just need to do their job better.
The 6 man Gab was logical because there are 6 A league teams. The high B’s are still B’s and the Puerta Vallarta 8 man C stays intact.
Correct, there is no reason Seaside should be in the Gab while Carmel gets to take the easy route to the playoffs. What is the reason for the favoritism towards Carmel? I don’t know, but it’s there and it’s BS.
Speed...
2016 - Seaside wins B+ league and gets moved to Gabilan.
2017 - Seaside goes 6 - 5 in Gabilan finishing 5th in the 8 team league and stays there
2018 - Seaside goes 1 - 9 in Gabilan and gets moved to B+ league
2019 - Seaside ties for lead (3 way tie) in B+ league and gets moved up to Gabilan
Only way (to me) that it makes sense to move Seaside up to the Gabilan in 2019, is if they move up all three Mission league champs...making Gabilan a 9 team league. So rather than moving up only MVC and/or Alisal they do elect to move up all three. Was that fair? Not in my opinion. You can argue to move up MVC since they are a private school. You can argue to move up Alisal since they are a large school. But I do not see an argument for moving up Seaside. Clearly you do not either.
2016 - Carmel wins B- league
2017 - Carmel finishes second in B- league but gets moved up to B+ league
2018 - Carmel finishes first in B+ league and gets moved up to Gabilan
2019 - Carmel finishes 6th in what amounts to a 7 team Gabilan league and gets moved down to B+ league
Carmel presents a case about being a small school (883 students - 20% smaller than Seaside) and significant graduation in 2020. Committee listens and agrees...moving Gilroy and Carmel to lower league. Don't see favoritism. Don't see entitlement. Maybe what I'd consider lack of logic in decisions like moving PG or Seaside up. But that's my logic and clearly not the committee's logic.
By the way am I a fan of Carmel? You bet. And should a fan be "self serving" as you say earlier. You bet. Do I whine? I hope that's not true but maybe to some it seems that way. I try to use what I see as facts and logic to present my case. To some I make my case. To others they don't see it my way. That's ok.
2016 - Seaside wins B+ league and gets moved to Gabilan.
2017 - Seaside goes 6 - 5 in Gabilan finishing 5th in the 8 team league and stays there
2018 - Seaside goes 1 - 9 in Gabilan and gets moved to B+ league
2019 - Seaside ties for lead (3 way tie) in B+ league and gets moved up to Gabilan
Only way (to me) that it makes sense to move Seaside up to the Gabilan in 2019, is if they move up all three Mission league champs...making Gabilan a 9 team league. So rather than moving up only MVC and/or Alisal they do elect to move up all three. Was that fair? Not in my opinion. You can argue to move up MVC since they are a private school. You can argue to move up Alisal since they are a large school. But I do not see an argument for moving up Seaside. Clearly you do not either.
2016 - Carmel wins B- league
2017 - Carmel finishes second in B- league but gets moved up to B+ league
2018 - Carmel finishes first in B+ league and gets moved up to Gabilan
2019 - Carmel finishes 6th in what amounts to a 7 team Gabilan league and gets moved down to B+ league
Carmel presents a case about being a small school (883 students - 20% smaller than Seaside) and significant graduation in 2020. Committee listens and agrees...moving Gilroy and Carmel to lower league. Don't see favoritism. Don't see entitlement. Maybe what I'd consider lack of logic in decisions like moving PG or Seaside up. But that's my logic and clearly not the committee's logic.
By the way am I a fan of Carmel? You bet. And should a fan be "self serving" as you say earlier. You bet. Do I whine? I hope that's not true but maybe to some it seems that way. I try to use what I see as facts and logic to present my case. To some I make my case. To others they don't see it my way. That's ok.
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I could see a case for Seaside and Carmel both being in the Gab in 2020. I could see a case for Seaside and Carmel both being in the mission for 2020. But swapping Carmel for Seaside makes no sense and is flat out not fair to Seaside while being overly accommodating to Carmel. Was Seaside proactively moved down so they didn’t have to endure that 1-9 2018 season? NO. Was Gilroy proactively moved down to avoid what would have been a winless season in the Gabilan had they finished the year? NO. But with Carmel they get this special consideration? Sack the hell up and take your lumps just like every other program had to.
And I don’t really care what a committee agrees with you on when they role out such a trash alignment of divisions. Clearly, their judgement is terrible considering they decided a 9 team Gabilan was a good idea.
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Original AD Committee proposal was for a 6 team Gabilan. Palma, Aptos, Salinas, Hollister, Alvarez and Christopher.
Christopher appealed and wanted out. Christopher said they should move down and wanted Seaside, Alisal or MVC to move up. The entire PCAL Athletic director council (all 30 members) voted on it and the most votes were for Seaside to move up. (Why Seaside "won" I do not know.)
The 6 team proposal with Seaside instead of Christopher went to the league Board of Managers (who are the principals of all league schools). Seaside (and MVC and Alisal) all made a pitch that they should not just choose one of the three league champions to go...advocating that none of them should go. However the school principals decided that a 6 team Gabilan would NOT work and that they wanted at least 8 teams in the Gabilan. The AD's reworked the proposal and that is how it ended up with a 9 team Gabilan. When it went back to the Board of Managers they approved it by over 3/4s vote.
Call me ignorant, blind, even stupid but I don't see where the favoritism was in this.
Could Christopher have gone down and Carmel have stayed? I suppose so but Camel is half the size of Christopher, Carmel has a JV team that got hammered against Gabilan competiton (or had to forfeit for lack of players), a 32 player varsity squad in 2019 that will be smaller in 2020, loses 2 of their 3 best defenders to graduation off a defensive group that was last in the league, and Carmel loses its 3-year starting QB and RB to graduation. Christopher's starting QB, RB and WR are all returning. Christopher only scored more than 20 points in one game last year...34 versus Carmel. I think the logic was that Christopher has a better chance of success in the Gabilan in 2020 than Carmel would. Equity decision making at its wisest.
Christopher appealed and wanted out. Christopher said they should move down and wanted Seaside, Alisal or MVC to move up. The entire PCAL Athletic director council (all 30 members) voted on it and the most votes were for Seaside to move up. (Why Seaside "won" I do not know.)
The 6 team proposal with Seaside instead of Christopher went to the league Board of Managers (who are the principals of all league schools). Seaside (and MVC and Alisal) all made a pitch that they should not just choose one of the three league champions to go...advocating that none of them should go. However the school principals decided that a 6 team Gabilan would NOT work and that they wanted at least 8 teams in the Gabilan. The AD's reworked the proposal and that is how it ended up with a 9 team Gabilan. When it went back to the Board of Managers they approved it by over 3/4s vote.
Call me ignorant, blind, even stupid but I don't see where the favoritism was in this.
Could Christopher have gone down and Carmel have stayed? I suppose so but Camel is half the size of Christopher, Carmel has a JV team that got hammered against Gabilan competiton (or had to forfeit for lack of players), a 32 player varsity squad in 2019 that will be smaller in 2020, loses 2 of their 3 best defenders to graduation off a defensive group that was last in the league, and Carmel loses its 3-year starting QB and RB to graduation. Christopher's starting QB, RB and WR are all returning. Christopher only scored more than 20 points in one game last year...34 versus Carmel. I think the logic was that Christopher has a better chance of success in the Gabilan in 2020 than Carmel would. Equity decision making at its wisest.
It's a question of stability as well. The PAL has been 6-6-6 since the creation of the Lake. Not even a coach from like say Aragon has said, no this year let's make it a 2-team Bay.
