I was looking at the NCS website and I saw a proposal that a present-year competitive equity playoff system, similar to what the CIF Southern Section did for football this year, may be implemented in the NCS effective the 2022-23 school year for the sports of baseball, basketball, football, lacrosse, winter soccer, softball, volleyball, and water polo.
Present-year competitive equity playoff system may be coming to the NCS in 2022-23
- Thread starter espot
- Start date
Yikes! So the season rides on if you’re a 1 seed or and 8 seed. Wonder how small schools will do…
No more hiding in D-IV for Marin Catholic and Cardinal Newman.
Here's an example of what this year's NCS football playoffs would have looked like based on calpreps.com's rankings
Division I
No. 8 Marin Catholic at No. 1 De La Salle
No. 7 Windsor at No. 2 Pittsburg
No. 6 Rancho Cotate at No. 3 Clayton Valley
No. 5 California at No. 4 San Ramon Valley
Division II
No. 8 Cardinal Newman at No. 1 Monte Vista
No. 7 Antioch at No. 2 Foothill
No. 6 Del Norte at No. 3 Las Lomas
No. 5 El Cerrito at No. 4 Benicia
Division III
No. 8 Amador Valley at No. 1 Campolindo
No. 7 St. Bernard’s at No. 2 Liberty
No. 6 San Leandro at No. 3 San Marin
No. 5. St. Vincent de Paul at No. 4 Dublin
Division IV
No. 8 Tamalpais at No. 1 Acalanes
No. 7 Livermore at No. 2 Heritage
No. 6 St. Helena at No. 3 Tennyson
No. 5 Vintage at No. 4 James Logan
Division V
No. 8 Bishop O’Dowd at No. 1 Casa Grande
No. 7 Granada at No. 2 Northgate
No. 6 Miramonte at No. 3 Montgomery
No. 5 De Anza at No. 4 Redwood
Division VI
No. 8 West County at No. 1 American Canyon
No. 7 Santa Rosa at No. 2 Encinal
No. 6 Castro Valley at No. 3 Salesian
No. 5 Petaluma at No. 4 Clear Lake
Division VII
No. 8 Fortuna at No. 1 Archie Williams (formerly Drake)
No. 7 College Park at No. 2 Middletown
No. 6 Cloverdale ar No. 3 Arcata
No. 5 Justin Siena at No. 4 Dougherty Valley
Division I
No. 8 Marin Catholic at No. 1 De La Salle
No. 7 Windsor at No. 2 Pittsburg
No. 6 Rancho Cotate at No. 3 Clayton Valley
No. 5 California at No. 4 San Ramon Valley
Division II
No. 8 Cardinal Newman at No. 1 Monte Vista
No. 7 Antioch at No. 2 Foothill
No. 6 Del Norte at No. 3 Las Lomas
No. 5 El Cerrito at No. 4 Benicia
Division III
No. 8 Amador Valley at No. 1 Campolindo
No. 7 St. Bernard’s at No. 2 Liberty
No. 6 San Leandro at No. 3 San Marin
No. 5. St. Vincent de Paul at No. 4 Dublin
Division IV
No. 8 Tamalpais at No. 1 Acalanes
No. 7 Livermore at No. 2 Heritage
No. 6 St. Helena at No. 3 Tennyson
No. 5 Vintage at No. 4 James Logan
Division V
No. 8 Bishop O’Dowd at No. 1 Casa Grande
No. 7 Granada at No. 2 Northgate
No. 6 Miramonte at No. 3 Montgomery
No. 5 De Anza at No. 4 Redwood
Division VI
No. 8 West County at No. 1 American Canyon
No. 7 Santa Rosa at No. 2 Encinal
No. 6 Castro Valley at No. 3 Salesian
No. 5 Petaluma at No. 4 Clear Lake
Division VII
No. 8 Fortuna at No. 1 Archie Williams (formerly Drake)
No. 7 College Park at No. 2 Middletown
No. 6 Cloverdale ar No. 3 Arcata
No. 5 Justin Siena at No. 4 Dougherty Valley
Scroll down 14 pages to see the proposal
D1 and D2 are somewhat ok. Beginning in D 3 and especially D4 is when the big school mediocrity and the small school punishment takes place.
D3 St Bernards and St Vincent’s have around 150 students but they are Catholic school with a decently large draw I’m fine with them moving up but against ~3000 student Liberty and Dublin?! Those schools have athletes not seems north of the Golden Gate.
D4 500 student (many low income farm worker kids) ST Helena against 1500 student Tennyson of Hayward. So Tennyson won a crappy big league and gets rewarded playing a team with 20 players? And James Logan and Vintage get to hide in D4! They weren’t very good!
D6 Medicore 1400 student Petaluma (40 players) gets rewarded with 350 student Clear Lake(18 players)!
I do like some things. Mainly it’s long since due that north bay Catholic schools move up. Public Rancho (1400) is up to D2. CN/MC should be at the D2 level just below the DLS/2000+ diverse east bay schools. SB and SV should not be in the bottom bracket ever. They are tiny but SB have proved it’s D5 not D7, SV could possibly be there soon as well. Salesian and SPSV should also be there as well. Justin Siena’s throw them in too. All those should be around D5 level.
I agree enrollment doesn’t matter in a pure since but ceilings, floors, and common sense are a must. In the Calprep brackets losses in the regular season or scheduling crap teams is fine, especially if you’re a large school. Get a top seed in a low bracket and win it. You could theoretically do it endlessly with the right scheduling.
I think it all makes sense.
Sure- larger schools are ending up in the lower divisions, but that's probably where they need to be at this point in time. Enrollment doesn't always tell the story.
The good part of this equity is that schools like Marin Catholic and Cardinal Newman will no longer be able to hide in D4 or any lower level division with the excuse of enrollment numbers. Those days are over. Cardinal Newman played Fort Bragg in a playoff game a few years ago. This was the biggest joke in the history of HSFB. And nobody said a thing.
I am glad they are starting to move the system in this way. Marin Catholic needs to stop hiding in D4 and nut up as well.
Sure- larger schools are ending up in the lower divisions, but that's probably where they need to be at this point in time. Enrollment doesn't always tell the story.
The good part of this equity is that schools like Marin Catholic and Cardinal Newman will no longer be able to hide in D4 or any lower level division with the excuse of enrollment numbers. Those days are over. Cardinal Newman played Fort Bragg in a playoff game a few years ago. This was the biggest joke in the history of HSFB. And nobody said a thing.
I am glad they are starting to move the system in this way. Marin Catholic needs to stop hiding in D4 and nut up as well.
The cutoff has to be somewhere. That would be true in any playoff system. In this scenario, however, you no longer will have teams that have no business being in D-I in that bracket and teams like Marin Catholic, who have no business being in D-IV in that bracket.
As for additional incentive to be a part of the higher divisions, the CCS tried that and was told to knock it off.
It is what it is.
Totally get that. I think no matter the system, schools will try to game it out to their advantage. I think this is a positive step, but it isn't one without issues. My take is if you limit who can move on, you will have less gaming of the system.
I’m also hearing other sections are going to follow suit with the losers from open division get bumped down to D1. I know of one section that’s going to promote that in all of their divisions.
Put them in leagues for this, I don't like a 3k enrollment playing a 300 in playoffs bc of equity. Don't allow the 3k to play down bc they have been crappy. Put them in a crappy league and allow them to get better that way. Don't take a ring away from a small school who does everything rt just to award a big school that has done everything wrong.
Exactly my point. I like schools with continued success (multiple section/runner up titles in recent times) to be forced to move up. MC and CN specifically need to be moved. In this scenario though they may routinely run into the green machine but it is what it is, aloth DLS has much larger enrollment and a large population base. I think they truly belong in the second bracket.
I do not see how one can argue that this is extremely negative to small publics who have a good year or are successful. Case in point someone brought up Fort Bragg playing MC in 2015. Yes that was a complete joke but lets look if the system would be much better. In 2015 Fort Bragg had a CalPrep ranking of 15.1. Now going off 2021 Calprep Rankings, they would probably be in a bracket with Antioch (18.3) or Liberty (16.4). Both of those schools are extremely large (2000+) and very diverse, not like stagnant small town Fort Bragg. If I am a good small school I would stop scheduling up in the preseason because it is likely to raise our Calprep ranking high enough to run into a deeper opponent.
Don't reward a school for being bad. Don't reward schools that have crappy athletics. I'm even ok with a 3k enrollment being in the same league with 300 enrollment students...Just don't allow the big school in to Division 987 playoffs. Don't allow the big schools to play in the playoffs with small schools. Get better, stop bailing out poor work ethic and ineptitude.
CCS system is not perfect, but by using an internal point system that also incorporates but is not to a direct match to Cal preps, you generally get decent playoff paring based on equity. They should go through and assign leagues based on strength A,B and C. This will allow them to use it in the internal system for SOS etc...
I would still like to see some provision that prevent any A league team from playing down past DII and any C league Champion being moved up past DIII (unless the school requests it). But I think if NCS developed something similar, it would be very successful. You still may see a St. Vincent Vs Antioch match up, but it is because Antioch is down year and St. Vincent is really good.
But it should prevent the CN v Ft Bragg first round match ups or even worse the Pacific Grove Vs Valley Christian2003 CCS DIV (?) championship VC won 69-0!!
I even felt bad for PG after that game...
And yes, now that the DLS streak is over, and the gap has closed between DLS and the rest of Nor Cal, CIF should eliminate the "Folsom" rule and have a Nor Cal Open Regional game for at least the next few years and see if DLS can start another streak.
I would still like to see some provision that prevent any A league team from playing down past DII and any C league Champion being moved up past DIII (unless the school requests it). But I think if NCS developed something similar, it would be very successful. You still may see a St. Vincent Vs Antioch match up, but it is because Antioch is down year and St. Vincent is really good.
But it should prevent the CN v Ft Bragg first round match ups or even worse the Pacific Grove Vs Valley Christian2003 CCS DIV (?) championship VC won 69-0!!
I even felt bad for PG after that game...
And yes, now that the DLS streak is over, and the gap has closed between DLS and the rest of Nor Cal, CIF should eliminate the "Folsom" rule and have a Nor Cal Open Regional game for at least the next few years and see if DLS can start another streak.
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Here are the SJS end-of-regular-season Cal Preps seedings in a "Present-Year Competitive Equity" model. I ignored league champions, but most are probably on the list. I kept two things from the current SJS playoff format: 4 wins minimum and 12 team brackets, including D7, which normally has 8 teams. I forgot to remove Capital Christian, but that’s an unusual circumstance, so no big deal. It’s just an example. I didn’t want to re-do the whole list. Please forgive any typos.
D1
1 Rocklin
2 Folsom
3 Central Catholic
4 Jesuit
5 Granite Bay
6 Oakdale
7 St. Mary’s
8 Antelope
9 Edison
10 Kimball
11 Del Oro
12 Vacaville
D2
1 Manteca
2 Whitney
3 Lincoln
4 Elk Grove
5 Capital Christian
6 Downey
7 Vanden
8 Lincoln- Stkn
9 Yuba City
10 Sheldon
11 Union Mine
12 Monterey Trail
D3
1 Merced
2 Escalon
3 Vista del Lago
4 Woodcreek
5 Lodi
6 Christian Brothers
7 Sacramento
8 East Union
9 Hilmar
10 Inderkum
11 Cosumnes Oaks
12 Patterson
D4
1 Bradshaw Christian
2 Turlock
3 Pioneer
4 Sonora
5 Roseville
6 Tracy
7 Placer
8 Hughson
9 Argonaut
10 Woodland
11 Ripon
12 Wood
D5
1 Gregori
2 Grace Davis
3 Rodriguez
4 Rosemont
5 Liberty Ranch
6 Casa Roble
7 Livingston
8 Waterford
9 Colfax
10 Nevada Union
11 Linden
12 Del Campo
D6
1 Ponderosa
2 El Camino
3 Dixon
4 Stagg
5 Enochs
6 Golden Valley
7 Burbank
8 Los Banos
9 Oakmont
10 Tokay
11 Woodland Christian
12 Laguna Creek
D7
1 Ripon Christian
2 Vacaville Christian
3 Summerville
4 Orestimba
5 El Dorado
6 Center
7 Chavez
8 Mc Clatchy
9 Central Valley
10 West Park
11 Lathrop
12 Le Grand
D1
1 Rocklin
2 Folsom
3 Central Catholic
4 Jesuit
5 Granite Bay
6 Oakdale
7 St. Mary’s
8 Antelope
9 Edison
10 Kimball
11 Del Oro
12 Vacaville
D2
1 Manteca
2 Whitney
3 Lincoln
4 Elk Grove
5 Capital Christian
6 Downey
7 Vanden
8 Lincoln- Stkn
9 Yuba City
10 Sheldon
11 Union Mine
12 Monterey Trail
D3
1 Merced
2 Escalon
3 Vista del Lago
4 Woodcreek
5 Lodi
6 Christian Brothers
7 Sacramento
8 East Union
9 Hilmar
10 Inderkum
11 Cosumnes Oaks
12 Patterson
D4
1 Bradshaw Christian
2 Turlock
3 Pioneer
4 Sonora
5 Roseville
6 Tracy
7 Placer
8 Hughson
9 Argonaut
10 Woodland
11 Ripon
12 Wood
D5
1 Gregori
2 Grace Davis
3 Rodriguez
4 Rosemont
5 Liberty Ranch
6 Casa Roble
7 Livingston
8 Waterford
9 Colfax
10 Nevada Union
11 Linden
12 Del Campo
D6
1 Ponderosa
2 El Camino
3 Dixon
4 Stagg
5 Enochs
6 Golden Valley
7 Burbank
8 Los Banos
9 Oakmont
10 Tokay
11 Woodland Christian
12 Laguna Creek
D7
1 Ripon Christian
2 Vacaville Christian
3 Summerville
4 Orestimba
5 El Dorado
6 Center
7 Chavez
8 Mc Clatchy
9 Central Valley
10 West Park
11 Lathrop
12 Le Grand
At this rate we might at well have an equitable playoff for the teams with the worst record including a regional game and state final. Maybe when complete the winner can play the Alaskan State champs by division. That would be equitable for the teams who don’t make playoffs.
This blanket criteria is problematic. Regardless of how crappy a large school is, one must address how they made the playoffs to begin with.
And if crappy large schools can't play down then one shouldn't allow good small schools to play up. That would be only fair. If Mack was in NCS, they should in the lowest division, right. So then, no need for equity playoffs.
Ncs alread has competitive equity criteria. Case in point D3(4?) Campo will be D1 next year, D7 St Bernards is D5, so on. Now I think it’s not strict enough I think finally MC will move up not sure if CN qualifies yet. Mack would probably be placed D6/7 but should be in D3 to begin.
Also in Calprep you could be a crappy large school and purposely schedule weak preseasons and manipulate your ranking year after year to stay low. Better than the incentive of getting boat raced.
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