One division statewide…. 16 section winners, single elimination.
Watching on NFHS as I type.
Watching on NFHS as I type.
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Pure playoffs in Kentucky
- Thread starter kiddman32
- Start date
Too bad we can’t do that here…. not.
480 schools in KY, not nearly the size differences due to consolidations over the years.
3800 here, vastly varying in size and budget.
But it’s nice to see the purity in smaller states. Indiana used to do this, too…. But not any more. 4 divisions and not nearly the broad fan interest now.
480 schools in KY, not nearly the size differences due to consolidations over the years.
3800 here, vastly varying in size and budget.
But it’s nice to see the purity in smaller states. Indiana used to do this, too…. But not any more. 4 divisions and not nearly the broad fan interest now.
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California could make a few changes and have a great system. Keep the open as the top 8 teams in both the north and south and go back to enrollment based d1-d5. Competitive equity is a total joke and rewards failure. Let’s use Sheldon and Elk Grove as an example this year. Both teams went 11–1 in the same league and beat each other by 2 points. You can’t get any more equal than that. But Sheldon gets put in open and Elk Grove d2 for norcals. How does that make sense on any level? And nothing against EG and congrats on the “state title” but they had no business being in d2.
Go one step further. Pencil pushers can push the initiative any way they like. They put 7 teams in open . Had they pushed 1 seed SHP to open then Elk Grove would move to 16 in D1 with all road games vs 1 seed in D2 and all home games . Pleasant Valley becomes 16 in D2 vs 1 seed in D3 etc etc …
how do you fix the small enrollment schools with really good basketball players? where would they play?
You can kind of clean that up if you make Div based on league not school. Branson is D-5 but plays in a league with 2,3,4 and 5. The league should be classed as a 2 or a 3. Everyone is in that Div. School size no longer really matters. WCAL same deal…schools run the Div list. If you can compete in league you can compete in D-2. No more of the 4 teams from the same league winning titles. Get to the finals in your league you move on. Otherwise, hit the track.
This exactly backs my statement on a previous thread that the system is completely broken.
Norcalpreps just posted the Top 35, we can honestly argue a place here and there. But fact is this.
D5 and D4 not even in the Top 35
D3 and D2 are 33 and 15.
D1, Clovis, don’t really expect to see them on the list.
And as should be the open Modesto Christian is number 1.
Go back to enrollment. So we have more Top 20 teams in the conversation. Cause myself personally, and as stated before, I am not gonna travel to Sac to see the teams at the bottom half of the top 50 play north or south. System is broken, and as one poster said before, it comes down to participation trophy’s for some. Agree with that 100 percent.
Riordan lost to Bishop Montgomery with the Craven twins who went to USC, came back the next year and had to battle it out with their cross town rival a 4th and 5th times, and win two super hard road games against Enterprise with a D1 point guard in Brody Angley, and then a tough Foothill team with some great athletes to get to the 5th game. And then knock off two guys, one who played in the NBA for 11 years and was a stud at UCLA. And that was D3. And another NBA kid who spent a few seasons that went to USC. Oh and let’s not forget a monster defensive end in the middle who played at Oregon.
Riordan had a Cal kid, a UTEP kid, and a Lewis and Clark kid. That was the D3 title game.
This last weekend you had Pleasant Valley and Venice. The resumes don’t even come close. Bring back enrollment so the best teams play and if a team has major talent, I am talking big time D1 and potential NBA, then have them bid up. But to throw the real competition all in one division so you get to watch Venice High play who had 10 losses is true comedy.
Norcalpreps just posted the Top 35, we can honestly argue a place here and there. But fact is this.
D5 and D4 not even in the Top 35
D3 and D2 are 33 and 15.
D1, Clovis, don’t really expect to see them on the list.
And as should be the open Modesto Christian is number 1.
Go back to enrollment. So we have more Top 20 teams in the conversation. Cause myself personally, and as stated before, I am not gonna travel to Sac to see the teams at the bottom half of the top 50 play north or south. System is broken, and as one poster said before, it comes down to participation trophy’s for some. Agree with that 100 percent.
Riordan lost to Bishop Montgomery with the Craven twins who went to USC, came back the next year and had to battle it out with their cross town rival a 4th and 5th times, and win two super hard road games against Enterprise with a D1 point guard in Brody Angley, and then a tough Foothill team with some great athletes to get to the 5th game. And then knock off two guys, one who played in the NBA for 11 years and was a stud at UCLA. And that was D3. And another NBA kid who spent a few seasons that went to USC. Oh and let’s not forget a monster defensive end in the middle who played at Oregon.
Riordan had a Cal kid, a UTEP kid, and a Lewis and Clark kid. That was the D3 title game.
This last weekend you had Pleasant Valley and Venice. The resumes don’t even come close. Bring back enrollment so the best teams play and if a team has major talent, I am talking big time D1 and potential NBA, then have them bid up. But to throw the real competition all in one division so you get to watch Venice High play who had 10 losses is true comedy.
I would have to go back and research, but I believe the WCAL has never had two teams in separate divisions in the state title game. It may have happened once. But again I would have to look back and this is pre open division.
I also like the enrollment model, but with six divisions and no Open. D1 would be the highest division, and non-D1 schools could choose to opt up... but before any games are played, and with a two- or three-year commitment so we don't see teams jumping up and down each season. In other words, if School A has a team full of seniors and wants to try the big boys, they can do so but then have to weigh the idea of dealing with a really tough year (or two) following that.
And, here's another idea... I lived in Oregon for 18 years, and their system was great, even when they went from four divisions to six despite hving only 450 or so schools.
The six divisions' last three rounds are all played in one week at different places all around the state, and not all in the same week. The lower three divisions play one week while the larger divisions play the next, and their earlier rounds are at home sites.
This way, there are not tiny schools in towns of 300 playing in huge, empty cavernous arenas during their tourneys... and attendance tends to be really good in the small-college or big-high-school neutral sites they play in, often close to sold out, no matter what teams are playing.
The bigger divisions' last three rounds are in appropriate large-but-not gigantic sites, too. 6A, the top division, plays at Chiles Center at U of Portland... 5500 seats or so, terrific place to watch hoops. Just big enough to still have tickets available on game day most years. Next division, Oregon State's Gill Coliseum, actually somewhat bigger (Sometimes this division uses U of Oregon, a much nicer place, new gym with the closed-off upper seats allowing for 6-7000 seats). Next division is at a 4000 seat gym, and so on.
This allows the fan, aka addict, to see two "Elite Eight" boys' tourneys and also two of the same for girls. And no gigantic empty arenas to wallow in. I never got to the small-school tourneys when up there, but I understand the atmosphere is fantastic, possibly not all that different from Gridley.
And, here's another idea... I lived in Oregon for 18 years, and their system was great, even when they went from four divisions to six despite hving only 450 or so schools.
The six divisions' last three rounds are all played in one week at different places all around the state, and not all in the same week. The lower three divisions play one week while the larger divisions play the next, and their earlier rounds are at home sites.
This way, there are not tiny schools in towns of 300 playing in huge, empty cavernous arenas during their tourneys... and attendance tends to be really good in the small-college or big-high-school neutral sites they play in, often close to sold out, no matter what teams are playing.
The bigger divisions' last three rounds are in appropriate large-but-not gigantic sites, too. 6A, the top division, plays at Chiles Center at U of Portland... 5500 seats or so, terrific place to watch hoops. Just big enough to still have tickets available on game day most years. Next division, Oregon State's Gill Coliseum, actually somewhat bigger (Sometimes this division uses U of Oregon, a much nicer place, new gym with the closed-off upper seats allowing for 6-7000 seats). Next division is at a 4000 seat gym, and so on.
This allows the fan, aka addict, to see two "Elite Eight" boys' tourneys and also two of the same for girls. And no gigantic empty arenas to wallow in. I never got to the small-school tourneys when up there, but I understand the atmosphere is fantastic, possibly not all that different from Gridley.
2013 they almost had five.
Mitty in the open final.
Bellarmine D1 Norcal semi
Saint Francis D2 Norcal semi
Sacred Heart Cathedral D3 State Final
Riordan D4 NorCal final
Call me crazy. Call me biased. But I like the current model they have set up. Do more teams get screwed than are happy? Probably. Same thing with the NCAA Tournament and any other model.
What about the fact that Norcal's top seeds in each division pretty much took the thing, excluding Clovis North in D1. They took care of business. Played 5 games in like 8-10 days and won all 5. Can't take anything away from a team that does that.
For those complaining, look at Pleasant Valley and Stuart Hall. Both those schools represented hard for Norcal and took home state trophies against the supposed superior Socal teams.
I'll conclude by saying, one year this model will hurt your team, next year it might help it. I just think its better than having Divisions where one team would probably just plow through the competition, before being destroyed by a better Socal team.
This model gives Norcal teams a chance!
What about the fact that Norcal's top seeds in each division pretty much took the thing, excluding Clovis North in D1. They took care of business. Played 5 games in like 8-10 days and won all 5. Can't take anything away from a team that does that.
For those complaining, look at Pleasant Valley and Stuart Hall. Both those schools represented hard for Norcal and took home state trophies against the supposed superior Socal teams.
I'll conclude by saying, one year this model will hurt your team, next year it might help it. I just think its better than having Divisions where one team would probably just plow through the competition, before being destroyed by a better Socal team.
This model gives Norcal teams a chance!
Wasn’t Chaffey the school SH beat ranked like #499 in California? The 500th ranked team in the state beaten by a team ranked #271. PV the 24th ranked team best the 102 ranked team. Shocking results I tell ya.
So if you like competitive equity then you should have no problem on being congratulated for winning the 143 place trophy because that’s exactly what it is . Also competitive equity began in 2017 and her are results
2017 south 4-2
2018 south 5-1
2019 south 5-1
2020-21 covid
2022 3-3 but south won open and D1
Prior to Competitive Equity
2016 3-3
2015 South 4-2 but north wins open and D1
2014 South 4-2
2013 South 5-1
2012 south 3-2
2011 South 3-2
Also Open began in 2013 and North went 3-1 in D1 until CE.
so competitive equity hasn’t helped the north one bit .
You are crazy, and I can guarantee you never competed as a player or coach at a high level. This system rewards mediocrity and underachieving. Nobody gives a rats ass about the #245 and #312 teams battling out for a “state title”. It’s basically a glorified participation trophy.
So much salt…..really sad.
but you know what. I’m totally cool with it.
Call it whatever you want but we did something a Norcal team rarely does and that is beat the SoCal team. Not only beat them but handled them the entire game.
For whatever reason I keep coming back to check these comments. But I need to stop. Nothing anyone can say on this board will take away what the team accomplished over the last week.
but you know what. I’m totally cool with it.
Call it whatever you want but we did something a Norcal team rarely does and that is beat the SoCal team. Not only beat them but handled them the entire game.
For whatever reason I keep coming back to check these comments. But I need to stop. Nothing anyone can say on this board will take away what the team accomplished over the last week.
I helped start the Stuart Hall baseball team. Couldn’t even play my freshman year because we didn’t have enough guys, so I played a year of Lax before playing varsity baseball for 3 years. Honestly didn’t do so well soph, and junior year but senior year I hit .400, even if it wasn’t against the best competition.
A glorified participation trophy isn’t won by a team that wins 5 games in under 10 Days. We were put up against mostly even competition and won every single game by double digits or close to it.
I think Open should stay. I think it helps move up the elite programs and also highlights who the top programs really are.
I think you can go back to enrollment based in D1-D5 and make small tweaks befor the season. Without doing the work, I would say 80-90% of the teams are in their right brackets. The issue is every section has different rules so getting uniformity on the enrollement divisions is needed too.
All this said, until the state plays by the same rules in terms of practices, fall leagues, contacts, transfers, etc, there will always be issues.
I think you can go back to enrollment based in D1-D5 and make small tweaks befor the season. Without doing the work, I would say 80-90% of the teams are in their right brackets. The issue is every section has different rules so getting uniformity on the enrollement divisions is needed too.
All this said, until the state plays by the same rules in terms of practices, fall leagues, contacts, transfers, etc, there will always be issues.
There are a couple of quick fixes that can happen to make the "competitive equity" group feel like they have a chance at a state title and the "playoff purists" feel like all the top teams are in and seeded correctly.
1- At the section level, put all schools back into their current enrollment based divisions. (throw out long term and recent program history and success)
2- If a section choses to have a Open division there should be a cap on how many teams from the same league can be selected. (I'm sure the WCAL, EBAL and DVAL are sick of playing common opponents for the 3rd and 4th time in a season)
3- In the Regional Championships (CIF) If a team is a winner or a runner-up of a section they should be placed between 1-7 in the seeding. No section champ or runner up should be a 14, 15 or 16 seed--- Move them to a lower division and give them a 1-7 seed.
4- The teams that play in their sections Open division championship game (both champ and runner-up) should be the only teams submitted to the CIF Regional Open brackets.
5- All the remaining teams who lost in their sections open bracket can either be funneled back into the D1 bracket of the section playoffs (by giving them a bye) or distributing half the teams back into D1 and the other half back into D2
1- At the section level, put all schools back into their current enrollment based divisions. (throw out long term and recent program history and success)
2- If a section choses to have a Open division there should be a cap on how many teams from the same league can be selected. (I'm sure the WCAL, EBAL and DVAL are sick of playing common opponents for the 3rd and 4th time in a season)
3- In the Regional Championships (CIF) If a team is a winner or a runner-up of a section they should be placed between 1-7 in the seeding. No section champ or runner up should be a 14, 15 or 16 seed--- Move them to a lower division and give them a 1-7 seed.
4- The teams that play in their sections Open division championship game (both champ and runner-up) should be the only teams submitted to the CIF Regional Open brackets.
5- All the remaining teams who lost in their sections open bracket can either be funneled back into the D1 bracket of the section playoffs (by giving them a bye) or distributing half the teams back into D1 and the other half back into D2
Pleasant Valley finished #24 in the CA rankings (MaxPreps). The fact that they were placed in DIII as the 40th best team in NorCal is a joke. Obviously they did this so NorCal can win a few state titles. Point differential in Stuart Hall's four games vs University was - 141 points yet they are state champs and Uni gets bounced in first round of DII. Makes zero sense....
It’s pretty sad that people are still discussing this topic. Yes a couple teams benefited from the system and a couple did not. How about you beat the teams put in front of you?
No matter the team come playoff time, your always going to need some breaks to go your way.
Personally I think the biggest travesty is teams like Arcata and Ponderosa being punished for losing one single NCS/CCS/SJS game and not being able to participate in the CIF tournament!
Man ditto. I saw the comment, and said here we go. And the comedy in it all is SF is stating facts.
2015/2016 Stuart Hall lost to SJND in 3 OT......SJND won the D5 State Championship. No one wanted to take away the award from SJND back then. Honestly that was Stuart Hall's State Championship to win, and they blew it.
In 2014/2015 Stuart Hall went 30-4....they beat University 3/4 times. Very Similar to this season. Uni ended up winning Norcals and they got a Sierra Canyon Team in D5. Yes the rules were different, but its not Stuart Hall's fault they got Sierra Canyon, and we got Chaffey.
2015 Bishop O'Dowd is the only team from Norcal to win the Open in 9 years of existence (8 games played due to Covid).
2015 San Ramon Valley is the last team from Norcal to win D1.
6 years between 2011-2016....SJND made the D5 State Championship 5 times. No one said anything then about how bad D5 is. They were often praised on this message board. Meanwhile my Knights get beat down every chance anyone gets.
All I know is to me, a State Championship is a State Championship. Many on here are bitter because their team will probably never experience the State Championship journey. Let Alone the journey this Hall team did go on before winning the State Championship.
Personally I would rather Norcal send better teams to lower divisions in certain circumstances, in order to beat Socal like we did this year. Maybe Socal should send better teams to their lower divisions, instead of people on here complaining about which Division a team ends up playing in. I dont think the coaches can say where they want to play and where they don't.
My team got a favorable bracket in D5. I saw the teams who were ahead of the Hall and I was licking my chops. As were the Knights obviously. You play the teams that are put in front of you. Period. Could it have been Urban in our spot and vice versa? Absolutely.
University was put in the proper Division this season btw. They deserved to be playing in D2, the way they just cruised through their D4 opponents in NCS. Punished for winning? Maybe. But thats just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.
Man you just don’t get it. If you did you would have responded to my other comments that you failed to do so. You take offense to experts wanting to see the best of the best play, while having no history of coaching, playing, nor recognizing true talent and watching what talent play. Aren’t you the guy that said one of the kids from riordan was the next James Wiseman, or something crazy like that. Was it Mor Seck maybe? That was hilarious. Anyone else you got on the nba radar? I mean how could you know when in Sac only one legit player out of 12 teams committed to Duke was in the building. So again per my other comment, we don’t think the same, it’s not even close.
You could also take that one step further, and say all schools should play by the same rules too....Why should my neighborhood public school compete against a school that attracts students from all over the region? I know the public/private debate is a tired one, but so is trying to find the ideal state playoff system for thousands of diverse schools, both public and private, large and school, magnets and neighborhood, flush in resources and struggling to just survive...This list goes on....
Well, their is a simple response to this. For starters the guy keeping this thread alive is actually one of the wealthiest private schools in San Francisco. However those of us who have been around the game for the last 20 plus years, know that the public schools that have made it to the end, such as the Centennials, Sacramento High, Long Beach Poly, Westchester, I could name a few more, including in the football side, not all those kids are from the same neighborhood. Artesia for example where James Harden went, or Dominguez Compton where Tyshaun Prince went, their teammates didn’t all come from down the street. But on the football side, people in Texas will tell you all the kids grew around the school. So point is, don’t forget the top public schools nationwide have ways to get kids just like the privates
Honestly HSWIZARD73...you come off as know-it-all. Like your opinion is the only valid one. While I respect it, and honestly agree with a lot of what you say. What you say isn't reality. No, teams in CIF will no longer just stay in their divisions. If your good you move up. If you aren't so good you move down.
I think the reason there is so much negativity, is because someone said only the Open and D1 games even matter. If thats the case, Socal owns our souls. Its not even close. It hasn't been for close to a decade now.
Im not as old as you but I have seen some good players play live. In college I saw Kyrie Irving play at the Maxpreps Tournament (Now Torrey Pines Classic). I saw plenty of guys play both at the high school and college level who have gone on to be NBA players.
The whole point of my argument with you isn't whether your points are valid or not. My point is just let the kids enjoy their Championship without diminishing it.
Just like you said I didn't acknowledge your previous comments, you not once said anything about SJND....yet their State Championships have only been won in D5. Does that make Lippi, not one of the best coaches in Bay Area history? Or because they were in D5...forget it?
Not trying to battle you on this. Honestly I love the fact that is 3/21/22 and were still talking high school basketball....Ill take it if you wanna feed it to me!
Ayalar, I am mostly on your side in this "fight", but... Saying that St. Joe's only won state titles in D5 is pretty silly.
Ever hear of a dude named Jason Kidd? The one that led St. Joe's to two D1 state titles, back when Open didn't exist? Best high-school hooper I ever saw...
Ever hear of a dude named Jason Kidd? The one that led St. Joe's to two D1 state titles, back when Open didn't exist? Best high-school hooper I ever saw...
I am glad you bring up those D5 St Joes wins and losses. Cause it reflects back to my other post.
I mean St Joe’s lost to a Harvard player one year, who in his senior year won a D4 title and beat Jabari Bird and Salesians.
They also lost one year to a kid who unfortunately dealt with a few injured seasons at Wagner but played his senior year and started most of the games at Texas Southern
But good news is one year they won with a kid who went to Long Beach State and another year they won with a kid that went to Pepperdine.
And as mentioned above a 141 point difference just adds to the fact that it is evident the best teams aren’t playing per enrollment aka the old school way when every division had D1 talent and most of the girls games during that time had D1 talent as well.
It’s safe to say in this system we will never see another WNBA/McDonald’s All American player in D5 along with quite a few other big time girls players. And that has been my point all along. Your point is the cif this the cif that. Which is valid, but it doesn’t discount my point one bit, and my point is like many other states, many people like myself want to see a incredible lineup top to bottom. Not teams that got there because the system happens to reward one side of the playing field and punish the better side of the playing field.
I don't disagree with your point, but was confused about one Branson tidbit - are you saying Mcnally won a D4 title and beat Bird and Salesian? I'm just the casual fan but don't think this happened or that their careers overlapped.
I don't disagree with your point, but was confused about one Branson tidbit - are you saying Mcnally won a D4 title and beat Bird and Salesian? I'm just the casual fan but don't think this happened or that their careers overlapped.
No that’s not what I said. Windward beat St Joes in 2009, in 2011 they returned and got bumped to the D4 finals and beat Salesian. Their star player went to Harvard.
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