Schedules, scores, rosters, stats

[personalogic]

Once again I appeal to all high school coaches to diligently post schedules, scores, rosters, and stats on maxpreps.

High school careers are very brief. Give your players the best possible chance to be seen, discussed, and appreciated. Don't hide their lights because you are lazy or have some convoluted theory about how publishing information makes you less competitive. When you list all 12 players at 5'7" you are not being clever, you're just being a dork.

Thanks!

 

[Irish_Cheers]

Once again I appeal to all high school coaches to diligently post schedules, scores, rosters, and stats on maxpreps.

High school careers are very brief. Give your players the best possible chance to be seen, discussed, and appreciated. Don't hide their lights because you are lazy or have some convoluted theory about how publishing information makes you less competitive. When you list all 12 players at 5'7" you are not being clever, you're just being a dork.

Thanks!

I don't see why more coaches don't just own their MaxPreps pages. How hard could it be to organize some students at each school for all sports to fill in the blanks on the MaxPreps pages?

 

[ClayK]

Or your scorekeeper, or whoever. We run into this problem doing the national rankings, as in states that don't use MaxPreps as the official source of information, coaches that don't have to do it simply won't take the time. So delegate the job to someone, give them the access code, and forget about it. If you don't want to enter the stats until the end of the season -- that's a chore, admittedly -- then that's fine too.

But no roster, or an incomplete one, and a schedule with wrong dates or times, does everyone who wants to know about your program, and the kids and parents, a disservice.

 

[personalogic]

Once again I appeal to all high school coaches to diligently post schedules, scores, rosters, and stats on maxpreps.

High school careers are very brief. Give your players the best possible chance to be seen, discussed, and appreciated. Don't hide their lights because you are lazy or have some convoluted theory about how publishing information makes you less competitive. When you list all 12 players at 5'7" you are not being clever, you're just being a dork.

Thanks!

On second thought, maybe in some cases I don't want to know. Monte Vista has posted a 15 player roster. Dougherty Valley lists 16 varsity players. What is the point of carrying all these bodies who aren't going to play?

 

[ClayK]

A good point ...

But Monte Vista has a new coach, and maybe Jim Lemmon wants to learn more about his players. (There's always the possibility that some will swing between varsity and JV.)

And I don't know the situation at Dougherty, but generally if a girl has been in the program three years and wants to be on varsity her senior year, even if she's been told she won't play much, almost every coach will put her on the roster. There are seven seniors on DV's roster, and if five are in the rotation, it doesn't address your point -- but if only three are, then that might explain it.

In general, though, I'm with you. It's much easier on everyone if the roster is smaller, and if you knew no one would get sick or hurt, a 10-girl roster would be ideal. Or even nine if you have an assistant who can scrimmage.

 

[personalogic]

A good point ...

But Monte Vista has a new coach, and maybe Jim Lemmon wants to learn more about his players. (There's always the possibility that some will swing between varsity and JV.)

And I don't know the situation at Dougherty, but generally if a girl has been in the program three years and wants to be on varsity her senior year, even if she's been told she won't play much, almost every coach will put her on the roster. There are seven seniors on DV's roster, and if five are in the rotation, it doesn't address your point -- but if only three are, then that might explain it.

In general, though, I'm with you. It's much easier on everyone if the roster is smaller, and if you knew no one would get sick or hurt, a 10-girl roster would be ideal. Or even nine if you have an assistant who can scrimmage.

I say 5 to start, 3 more for subs, 2 more so you can run 5 on 5 in practice, and 2 more to cover for injuries and illnesses. No more than 12 total. If it breaks down, pull up someone from JV. Every player over 12 just takes away time and attention from the players who need it to be able to do their best on the court.

 

[Paytc]

I say 5 to start, 3 more for subs, 2 more so you can run 5 on 5 in practice, and 2 more to cover for injuries and illnesses. No more than 12 total. If it breaks down, pull up someone from JV. Every player over 12 just takes away time and attention from the players who need it to be able to do their best on the court.

personalogic,

I agree with you for the most part 12 or less. The only problem with that is from what I have seen once a player makes the team they only need to go through the motions every year afterwards. Back in the day, I recall players having to try out each season, and possibly be cut if a few transfers or better younger players came along. In today's PC don't want to hurt anyones confidence or feelings era all return players make the team. So that is why when not enough players graduate coaches are some times stuck piling 14-18 players on varsity which I agree makes no sense.

 

[straightline50]

personalogic,

I agree with you for the most part 12 or less. The only problem with that is from what I have seen once a player makes the team they only need to go through the motions every year afterwards. Back in the day, I recall players having to try out each season, and possibly be cut if a few transfers or better younger players came along. In today's PC don't want to hurt anyones confidence or feelings era all return players make the team. So that is why when not enough players graduate coaches are some times stuck piling 14-18 players on varsity which I agree makes no sense.

Don't forget back in the day there were no online forums for parents to blog and post on message boards either. Cuts both ways.

 

[ClayK]

So a senior who's played for three years in the program, maybe the last player on varsity as a junior or a JV stalwart, tries out for her final season, after being a soldier in the program -- and you cut her for a freshman?

Maybe some coaches can do that, but I can't, parents or no parents, forums or no forums.

 

[personalogic]

So a senior who's played for three years in the program, maybe the last player on varsity as a junior or a JV stalwart, tries out for her final season, after being a soldier in the program -- and you cut her for a freshman?

Maybe some coaches can do that, but I can't, parents or no parents, forums or no forums.

I don't think you are doing a senior a favor by making her a mercy pick. But if you really have one or two kids you can't bear to cut, you can find room for them in the 11 and 12 slots. Any frosh that would be player 11 or 12 is probably better off playing JV anyway. San Ramon Valley has put 5 frosh on varsity for this season. Would you keep 5 seniors on the roster so that they can ride the bench and watch the frosh play?

 

[ClayK]

If those five seniors had been in the program for three years, and if they were told, and their parents were told, that their playing time would be minimal, and they said they were OK with it, no question.

Loyalty runs both ways. I can't expect kids to make sacrifices for the program if I'm not willing to.

 

[straightline50]

I don't think you are doing a senior a favor by making her a mercy pick. But if you really have one or two kids you can't bear to cut, you can find room for them in the 11 and 12 slots. Any frosh that would be player 11 or 12 is probably better off playing JV anyway. San Ramon Valley has put 5 frosh on varsity for this season. Would you keep 5 seniors on the roster so that they can ride the bench and watch the frosh play?

So if your daughter had been in the program for 3 years, JV for two of them and the 12th man her jr year you would be okay with her being cut her senior year because she is projected at 13 instead of 14?

 

[personalogic]

So if your daughter had been in the program for 3 years, JV for two of them and the 12th man her jr year you would be okay with her being cut her senior year because she is projected at 13 instead of 14?

Sure. If my kid was #13 she should find something else to do.

 

[LBJ6]

I couldn't cut a girl who played 3 years in the program as a senior. Just have to tell her and the parents from the start she won't play. If she still wants to play then thats the type of girl I want in my program. My 2 c's

 

[straightline50]

Sure. If my kid was #13 she should find something else to do.

That is why it is better if we as adults allow kids to have their own experience. Sports offers a lot and it is not always playing time. Who knows todays #13 could be next months #8 or #9.

 

[Paytc]

Don't forget back in the day there were no online forums for parents to blog and post on message boards either. Cuts both ways.

That is true. And thankfully technology came along to make many lives better. And hold many more folks accountable than were once held accountable. Folks who man- up or woman-up never worry about accountability. Because they tend to already demand the best from themselves and hold themselves accountable. And they typically hold those under their guidance to the same standard.

 

[Paytc]

So a senior who's played for three years in the program, maybe the last player on varsity as a junior or a JV stalwart, tries out for her final season, after being a soldier in the program -- and you cut her for a freshman?

Maybe some coaches can do that, but I can't, parents or no parents, forums or no forums.

You don't need to cut a player to increase or decrease their demand and contribution level for the betterment of the team. They just might have to find out that now they might not be starting or in the 8 player rotation. There is never enough players to pass towels and fill up water bottles, or cheer for the team. Sending a message that we want to do what's in the best interest of the program and overall "team" success should be a standard that all team players and parents buy into.

 

[Paytc]

"Sure. If my kid was #13 she should find something else to do".

personalogic,

Or be a good team mate and stay on the team in a different role to support the team success overall. But instead most get a bad attitude and react the wrong way to adversity. I only see a problem when players who don't demonstrate the ability, value, or commitment to move ahead of others get moved ahead because of reasons that don't justify it. But even so, you try to never let it break you.

 

[Paytc]

I couldn't cut a girl who played 3 years in the program as a senior. Just have to tell her and the parents from the start she won't play. If she still wants to play then thats the type of girl I want in my program. My 2 c's

That is also the type of girl who presents the attitude and maturity that might eventually work hard enough to prove others including her coach wrong. She might get on the floor sooner than most would have thought she would.

 

[ClayK]

There's another aspect to this, I think, and not to beat up on personalogic ...

For me, the measure of a successful program isn't really championships or state titles -- rather, it's the experience the girls have. As I've said before, if a girl looks back on her high school basketball sometime down the road and thinks "I'm glad I did that," then that's success.

An indirect measure of how girls feel about the program, I think, is how popular the program is within the school -- and a simple measure of that is how many girls want to be involved. There are a lot of choices in high school, from other sports to other extracurricular activities, so if girls are choosing basketball instead of say, lacrosse, or choir, then that's a sign that they are hearing from girls within the program that it's fun and worthwhile.

That kind of word-of-mouth also trickles down to middle school, and when freshmen arrive on campus, they know what they've heard about various activities.

So if I look at a varsity roster and see seven seniors, that tells me that those girls have a good experience their first three years -- and even more so if they're borderline players. And if the JV roster is full, and at larger schools, if there's actually a freshman team, that's an even greater endorsement of the head coach and his program.

If it were only about basketball, then sure, having a 12-girl roster makes sense, but since 99% (or whatever number) of the girls who play in high school will never play in another organized game, I think a program's goals should be more about the experience than about winning the most games. And the more girls who get something from the experience, the better ...

 

[personalogic]

There's another aspect to this, I think, and not to beat up on personalogic ...

For me, the measure of a successful program isn't really championships or state titles -- rather, it's the experience the girls have. As I've said before, if a girl looks back on her high school basketball sometime down the road and thinks "I'm glad I did that," then that's success.

An indirect measure of how girls feel about the program, I think, is how popular the program is within the school -- and a simple measure of that is how many girls want to be involved. There are a lot of choices in high school, from other sports to other extracurricular activities, so if girls are choosing basketball instead of say, lacrosse, or choir, then that's a sign that they are hearing from girls within the program that it's fun and worthwhile.

That kind of word-of-mouth also trickles down to middle school, and when freshmen arrive on campus, they know what they've heard about various activities.

So if I look at a varsity roster and see seven seniors, that tells me that those girls have a good experience their first three years -- and even more so if they're borderline players. And if the JV roster is full, and at larger schools, if there's actually a freshman team, that's an even greater endorsement of the head coach and his program.

If it were only about basketball, then sure, having a 12-girl roster makes sense, but since 99% (or whatever number) of the girls who play in high school will never play in another organized game, I think a program's goals should be more about the experience than about winning the most games. And the more girls who get something from the experience, the better ...

A few additional comments.

First, there's a number out there. Maybe you disagree that it's 12, but it's not 22. So how many non-playing seniors do you want to take time to manage over the course of a season versus spending time developing the kids who are actually going to play?

Second, if a kid really wants to be part of the team in a broader sense, you can have her pass out towels, keep stats or whatever. But when you give her a uniform, no matter what you tell her about not playing, she (and her parents) are continue to hope. As it sinks in that you really meant what you said, it could very well get ugly. Worth the risk?

Finally, I do think there's something to be said about setting a standard for your program that filters down to middle schoolers and below. But the standard should be that everyone earns their place at the table. Makes more sense to me than sending the message that all you have to do is stick it out long enough and you can put "varsity player" on your resume.

 

[Paytc]

A few additional comments.

First, there's a number out there. Maybe you disagree that it's 12, but it's not 22. So how many non-playing seniors do you want to take time to manage over the course of a season versus spending time developing the kids who are actually going to play?

Second, if a kid really wants to be part of the team in a broader sense, you can have her pass out towels, keep stats or whatever. But when you give her a uniform, no matter what you tell her about not playing, she (and her parents) are continue to hope. As it sinks in that you really meant what you said, it could very well get ugly. Worth the risk?

Finally, I do think there's something to be said about setting a standard for your program that filters down to middle schoolers and below. But the standard should be that everyone earns their place at the table. Makes more sense to me than sending the message that all you have to do is stick it out long enough and you can put "varsity player" on your resume.

personalogic,

That is soo true. Because kids get enough of the "everyone should get equal time to play" from CYO and many times AAU when parents complain about spending the same amount of money to make the team (or more) than say Aquira Decosta or Sabrina. By high school kids are about to go off into the adult world. What better time to start sliding them a bit of reality? Kids should be taught the importance of doing what is in the best interest of the success of the team overall. Kind of sets them up to know how to do what's in the best interest of the company they might get hired to work at if they don't start their own business. Sure each program should have goals to help build as many players confidence as possible. But that has to be within reason. Wins and losses is what allows kids to have that so call feeling that the experience is worth returning. There are not many teams that get stomped in just about every game that has 6 or 7 seniors eagerly returning to play. Because that word of mouth also trickles down to middle school and others. And there has to be exceptions based on the history and expectations of the program when setting blanket standards in place that says everyone will get equal play time. Or it's great to have 16-20 player rosters. Because kids would be fools to think they are gong to programs like Mitty, SMS, Pinewood, Salesian, Bishop Odowd, etc... and think equal play time and individual fairness is a priority. Building pipe dreams might be the case at a school like Ignacio Valley or Mt. Diablo.

 

[pkommer]

Paytc,
Just have to defend the YV and Mt. D. programs here. If you've been following, those coaches have worked really hard and are turning around those programs. They have their kids working hard in the offseason.

As coaches, I'm sure we all may have instances where, in hindsight, we maybe should have considered more strongly cutting an "end of the bench" senior (who might have ended up causing some level of grief). However, my experience is far more the opposite. A senior with a great attitude adds significant value to practices.
More importantly, as I'm sure many coaches say similar things to their players, we like to emphasize to our players that more important than wins and losses is that 20 years from now, they'll still be friends; and largely because of their support of each other within a competitive environment. At least, that is our hope.
It would be hypocritical, in my opinion, to say that and then cut a senior with a great attitude, who understands their status with playing time. To me, that would contradict the big picture of what we are trying to teach them.

 

[mkbgdns]

Building pipe dreams might be the case at a school like Ignacio Valley or Mt. Diablo.

too bad you think equal play time and individual fairness are a pipe dream. I'd like to see it as a norm except in the small number of self-identified alpha programs. although you may have meant to compliment certain schools for encouraging their girl basketball players to go into the male-dominated plumbing trades. if my house is any example, there's never a shortage of work.

 

[Paytc]

Paytc,
Just have to defend the YV and Mt. D. programs here. If you've been following, those coaches have worked really hard and are turning around those programs. They have their kids working hard in the offseason.

As coaches, I'm sure we all may have instances where, in hindsight, we maybe should have considered more strongly cutting an "end of the bench" senior (who might have ended up causing some level of grief). However, my experience is far more the opposite. A senior with a great attitude adds significant value to practices.
More importantly, as I'm sure many coaches say similar things to their players, we like to emphasize to our players that more important than wins and losses is that 20 years from now, they'll still be friends; and largely because of their support of each other within a competitive environment. At least, that is our hope.
It would be hypocritical, in my opinion, to say that and then cut a senior with a great attitude, who understands their status with playing time. To me, that would contradict the big picture of what we are trying to teach them.

pkommer,

I'm totally "the big picture man." And I don't mean to poke fun at or put down the kids, school, coaches, or programs at Ignacio Valley and Mt. Diablo. My point was kids and everyone else must distinguish between what playing at a school or program that has won multiple girl's basketball state championships and one that may never win one. So the chances of expecting what goes on where the standards and expectations are raised as opposed to a school with totally different goals and expectations has to be considered. I'm thrilled to hear the coaches are putting in some good work at YV and Mt. D. And if anyone wants to pull up my thread of comments, I just recently mentioned the value I placed on kids who keep great attitudes during adversity. And the importance of not allowing anyone to break your spirit or confidence. Part of what makes for a great team is keeping the importance of the big picture in mind and the egos in check. At the same time we must be mindful that while no player is bigger than the team, some players carry the team.

I think the main point both I and personalogic were making is at places where the history, goals, and standards on winning are high ( and those who want to get there) what takes place there is not necessarily the norm of give everyone a fair shot regardless to their talent, size, hustle, attitude, and/ or ability. Putting 16-20 players on a team and expecting the bottom 6-10 to get development time on the floor is not realistic at schools that have placed high standards on winning. So we can always throw out the cliche "winnings not everything" but whether we like it or not we must add the disclaimer " it has a higher value at some school and some programs than it does at others". I too wish life was fair. But unfortunately unless divine intervention comes that may never be the case in most environments.

 

[letsski]

I think people often confuse "fair" and "equal". I will always attempt to treat my players fairly although that rarely means equally. Paytc wrote: "Or be a good team mate and stay on the team in a different role to support the team success overall. But instead most get a bad attitude and react the wrong way to adversity". My experience is completely the opposite - if communicated clearly, most of the end of the bench players embrace the experience of being on the team. And we know with rare exceptions there are games along the way that will allow the coach to get these kids some minutes. Again my experience is that when those times happen, the player, their teammates, their families and the crowd love it.

 

[mkbgdns]

I don't mean to poke fun at or put down the kids, school, coaches, or programs at Ignacio Valley and Mt. Diablo.

so explain the "pipe dream" that you say is being "built" at those schools. honestly, sounds like a put-down to me.

I went to a MD game when my daughter was playing, just to see how a group of kids having a hard time outscoring the opposition was faring. I was genuinely impressed with their effort and attitude despite coming up short (way short) on the scoreboard. I'd say that they won anyway.

 

[Paytc]

mkbgdns,

Clay said....."For me, the measure of a successful program isn't really championships or state titles -- rather, it's the experience the girls have".

While I agree the long term effect and becoming better and more confident players is more important than winning, it's harder to sell those more accustom to winning that winning isn't important.

Whenever you are not being truthful with children it's a lie. So even though parents mean no harm when they tell a child to believe in St. Nicholas, they're still not being honest with them. Well if coaches, parents, or anyone else tells a child "never mind your feelings when you lose, it doesn't matter whether you win or lose because everyone getting to play or the experience you have is more important than winning". How children process things is not the same as someone trying to convince them to believe in something they aren't actually sold on. My daughter has, as everyone else 's daughter, been in a game or two where her team was beaten by 40 or 50 points. And obviously my daughter wasn't thrilled. But ten minutes after the game you would have never known she just loss because she'd move far past the event and be cheerfully playing with her friends as if nothing happened. Most children are good about not letting defeat, defeat them. But they still would prefer to do what it takes to win if they had a choice between the two. A pipe dream is trying to make them believe they can actually "Win Anyway" in the way losing makes them feel. If that makes any sense explained in that way. One point I totally agree with you is (and it is explained in the book Win Anyway) you have to be able to define your own victories and not always let the scoreboard or anyone else define them for you.

But again it's easier to sell the winning on the scoreboard isn't everything at a school that is less accustom to winning than to sell it to a group of children that have grown accustom to winning. Go try to change the winning culture at Uconn, New England Patriots, Lakers, Warriors, Mitty, SMS, Mater Dei, De La salle, Yankees, etc... and it won't be easy to convince them winning ( on the scoreboard) is not a big deal.

 

[Paytc]

I think people often confuse "fair" and "equal". I will always attempt to treat my players fairly although that rarely means equally. Paytc wrote: "Or be a good team mate and stay on the team in a different role to support the team success overall. But instead most get a bad attitude and react the wrong way to adversity". My experience is completely the opposite - if communicated clearly, most of the end of the bench players embrace the experience of being on the team. And we know with rare exceptions there are games along the way that will allow the coach to get these kids some minutes. Again my experience is that when those times happen, the player, their teammates, their families and the crowd love it.

letsski,

We've had different experiences. I've noticed more often than it should be where children and parents get bad attitudes when everything doesn't always go their way. I've seen many players quit. And I've seen many parents go complaining to AAU owners, A.D.'s, coaches, etc.... And if complaining doesn't result in what some want many let their bad attitudes rule.

I've also seen coaches play favorites possibly because of a friendship, peer pressure, or some type of kickback. And I've seen coaches with bad attitudes they take out on children as well when players or parents challenge them on the reasons they play favorites.

 

[mkbgdns]

wow! lots of words! and I still don't know what is it exactly that Mount Diablo and Ygnatio Valley are doing that causes your disapproval. what are those programs doing that "building pipe dreams might be the case" ? since you singled out two teams, please be specific. and if you know nothing about those programs, what arouses your suspicion (might)? why those two programs in particular?

own your put-down.

 

[Paytc]

wow! lots of words! and I still don't know what is it exactly that Mount Diablo and Ygnatio Valley are doing that causes your disapproval. what are those programs doing that "building pipe dreams might be the case" ? since you singled out two teams, please be specific. and if you know nothing about those programs, what arouses your suspicion (might)? why those two programs in particular?

own your put-down.

I have known both schools to not be doing much winning on the basketball court in girls basketball. So I just picked them out of a hat. I could have named about 40 more teams that have been doing about the same or perhaps worse. I have friends I talk to quite often that attended both schools and they also would admit they haven't been the winningest girls basketball programs. I won't apologize because I didn't intend to harm by telling the truth. I wish them both much more success in the win and loss columns than they have had in the past 5 or 6 years or forever. And I'm glad to hear they have coaching staffs that have been working to make them better and more successful programs.

 

[mkbgdns]

so...losing is the transgression, then. not sure how losing basketball games builds pipe dreams. which, I guess, is your "truth".

not asking for apology, just clarification. I get it now.