We will definitely find out in a few weeks! Who has Sheldon played of credibility? They even struggled with Monterey Trail. Grant has played Rocklin, Clackamas (#6 ranked team in the state of Oregon), Burbank, and a previously undefeated Franklin 56-0! I honestly feel that it is unfair to compare Sheldon to Grant, just because they have a few athletes. In high school football, anything can happen on any given night. I do know this......Grant is bigger, stronger, and faster, and well coached. Their O-line is BIG and dominant, and their defense is just as BIG and swarming! Anything is an improvement from previous Sheldon teams (even though they have played Grant tough the last two years), but they haven't done enough yet to even be in the same conversation. Cat is a good coach, but he is not in the same accomplishment category as Alberghini!
Top 5 Coaches in My Opinion
- Thread starter NorCalScout
- Start date
I love the pacer fans, yall love coach Al. Like I said before Coach Cat was successful at 2 other programs and has his new program pointing in the right direction. Take all these coaches we are talking about and have them do it at other programs and then we can talk. You talked about the last 2 games were close, just wait till this years game and we will talk after. I do know 1 thing Sheldon dont just have a couple of athletes they got alot of football players that arent scared. This is why we play the game.
The point I was making is that it was much harder to qualify for the postseason for much of Coach AL's early tenure as coach and that makes it an even more unbelievable accomplishment. NU didn't make the post season that season with a 9-1 record! No chance that could occur today.
I didn't bring up the DO thing because it wasn't relevant to my point. Almost everybody makes the postseason today. So someone equaling the Pacers 25+ year record under today's rules wouldn't compare at all.
As I alluded to in my earlier post, there are other factors in play at Grant Union that might not make other coaches such a great fit. Coach AL has been on that campus 40+ years and knows how to relate to the kids and parents of that community better than anyone. While many have criticized his offensive philosophy/tactics over the years, he knows how to get the most out of his kids and get them to buy into what he's selling. That's far more important than scheme.
Why are you trying to devolve this into a 'this coach versus that coach' discussion? Coach Reber simply mentioned Coach AL as a glaring omission and pacerguru backed him up. And they're both right. You may have your own criteria for what makes a great coach, and that's your right. But I think it's a big mistake to diminish somebody's accomplishments simply because they haven't duplicated it at another school. Are Troy Taylor and Kris Richardson not great coaches because they've only had major success at Folsom? It doesn't work that way.
I think RunningRon said it best. All of the names mentioned are great in their own way and many of them do it a bit differently.
Then why didn't Coach Vukajlovich win a single section championship in his 15 years coaching the Pacers? They never even reached a section title game from 1976 through 1990 despite winning a ton of games. Short answer is, it ain't that easy.
Is Justin Alumbaugh not a good coach because DLS also has the same built-in advantage? How about Folsom's coaching staff -- who has been as blessed with as much talent as anyone in recent years?
IMO, the talent card is a cop out. There have been countless coaches that have inherited ultra talented teams and not won.
Lastly, while we all know the Pacers have had their share of athletes and collegiate talent over the years, it's not as if they always have the very best collection of talent every single year. That's a myth.
We finally agree, but the original connotation, was that the 25 year streak was not broken only because of a coin flip. You failed to mention that the '96 team went on to win the mythical City Championship and Section Championship. I only ask that you tell the whole story.
I didnt say Sheldon was an area power, I said they are pointing in right direction and when the season plays out we can talk about it. I just said Coach Cat is a great coach and I didnt talk about nobody else because I am talking bout what I know from first hand experience. Any coach that is having some type of success at any level is good coach, I am just stating my opinion.
If you don't believe better talent is a built-in advantage there is no reason to further this debate. So I guess you believe that 2009 all world Pacer team of Sample, Thompson and Booker was suppose to lose to the Thunder. How many Rocklin players from that team are in the league? Mind you the group of coaches I was standing by at that game were just as dumbfounded by Grants coaching as I was. And lets not talk about that masterpiece at Sac State against Folsom. So spin this however you want "coaching matters" when you lose games that you should win. I'm also under the impression that you believe Grant was suppose to lose that game. Let me say this to you. The games Ernie Cooper beat Grant it wasn't because Granite Bay had more talent it was because Cooper was the better coach. Same goes for Casey Taylor. If Grant was so well coached they would NEVER lose to GB OR DO. And the only "myth" is those that believe talent trumps coaching. Meaning if all was fair would you hire Coach Al to coach your team over Cooper, Cattolico, Taylor or Benzel? Here's my list in order: Cooper, Cattolico, Taylor, Benzel and then Al. What's your list TR?
CT4L
No, that's just how you chose to interpret it for some odd reason. Sure, the streak could have been broken had the coin flip not gone their way, but that was not at all the crux of the point. I clearly stated how underrated the streak is and backed it up by using the example of NU missing out on the postseason in 1996 as evidence of how hard it used to be to qualify -- which makes the 25 year streak even more impressive. You're extrapolating something negative out of it which wasn't the intention.
I'm sure you know coaches frequent this board? So to make a long story short I don't think it's a smart move to fuel coach Cat's fire. If Cat were to lose to Al three in a row I'll be totally shocked and I'll come back on here and eat my BBQ crow and also say Al is the superior coach. That being said, coach Cat will probably beat Al three in a row before Al beat Cat two in a row. If Nixon can beat Al three in a row I'll surely put my money on Cat to match that and some......
CT4L
There's no spinning going on. You clearly just aren't grasping the point. What speaks volumes is that a respected coaching peer went out of his way to mention Coach AL in this thread. That's because a majority of those that do this for a living and have a clear understanding of what it takes to run a successful program all have immense respect for him.
Every HC out there has made tactical mistakes during their careers and lost games they should have won. Conversely, they've also won games they probably shouldn't have. It goes with the territory. However, you seem to want to place all blame on him for a few instances of failure yet give no credit whatsoever for the overwhelming successes. That wreaks of an agenda, true or not.
With regard to the Rocklin game, I'll make the following points.
First, having future college and/or NFL players on the roster doesn't guarantee a win. And it also doesn't mean the team with less prospects is necessarily inferior. Suggesting otherwise is shortsighted and naive.
Secondly, that Rocklin squad wasn't some 2nd rate team. They were 14-0 heading into the SBG and gave one of Servite's best all-time teams everything they could handle despite playing w/o their starting QB. They were as well-rounded a team as you could hope for. They were highly effective running it, throwing it and had a highly opportunistic defense. That's pretty tough for anybody to beat. Had they not lost Jimmy Laughrea to injury and somehow managed to win that SBG as a result, they likely would have finished the season ranked top 3 in CA and top 25/50 Nationally. As it was, they finished top 10 in CA. Losing to a team of that caliber is no great upset let alone something to be mocked.
Lastly, the Pacers trailed that game 21-6 at half. They not only shut out the Thunder the 2nd half, but came within a 21-yd FG of winning the game outright. Doesn't that suggest some good in-game coaching adjustments? Fact is, Coach AL had his team in position to win the game but the kid simply missed what was essentially an XP. And while seemingly everyone 2nd guessed Coach AL's play calling at the goalline, who wouldn't hand the ball to Devontae Booker 4 consecutive times thinking they could get a yard behind that massive and talented offensive line?? Sure, in hindsight he could have went wide or did something different. But that's the beauty of hindsight.
In the end, he put the ball in the hands of his best player behind the biggest strength the team had -- their big, physical line. What more can you ask for??
As for the "masterpiece" you refer to at Sac State, I guess you have selective amnesia and don't recall that numerous key players were injured or out, most notably Shaq Thompson and Ference Lang. When fully healthy that team beat Folsom by 35. But let's also not neglect to acknowledge that Folsom was a much different team 14 weeks later. They finished the season ranked #2 in CA and top 25 Nationally. But somehow the Pacers should be embarrassed for losing to such a bad team according to you.
I've more than made my point. I'll allow you the last words and leave it at that..
Point one, having respect for a coach doesn't make him a legend or a great coach in the scheme of things. Shit, I respect him as a coach I just don't believe he's in the top 5 public. There's nothing wrong with showing respect but I stand by my opinion on where he stands in regards to this thread.
Point two, I have no agenda whatsoever and I call it as I see it. You say he made mistakes like most coaches but I've never saw Cooper, Cattolico or Taylor lose games in which they were the clear favorite going in. That being said, I'm not shocked you skirted my question in regards to who would you hire from the list of coaches I mentioned. That would tell the story.
Point three, In regards to your Rocklin response did you ever think for one moment that they were better coached? Just imagine Benzel replacing three players on his roster with the three NFL players on Grants roster. That being said, Benzel did a helluva job coaching that year. That team had a great deal of talent but not the level of talent the reigning state champions had. Benzel beat a team he wasn't suppose to beat and if anyone say otherwise they're just being shortsighted or bias to the debate itself.
Point four, what more can I ask for In regards to handing the ball off to Booker four consecutive times? For starters it was a QB sneak and then three straight handoffs to Booker all in Jumbo I-formation. Very vanilla in my years of coaching especially with no movement from the offense in that situation. These are the things I would have looked at. How about spreading Rocklin out by going 4 wide and given Booker the rock. How about a spread shovel pass to Booker showing motion? Something Rocklin definitely wouldn't have been expecting. How about play action pass off the fake handoff to Booker in a Jumbo or Power-I package with motion? Rocklin would have definitely seen this (cut throat) two-way had I been Grants OC. But Grant, "was who we thought they were" and that seems to be their biggest problem. Coach Al played right into Benzel's hand. Rocklin did exactly what they knew Al and yourself would do in that situation. In foresight I would have never went at Rocklin with Booker that way. No matter how you slice it or try to clean it up that's bad coaching 101. As a bonafide OC it takes a person with a great imagination (chess like) in situations like this to be considered top 5 status in my book.
Point five, I saw better coaching by Folsom at Sac State. I saw a Bulldogs coaching staff come in with a game plan that featured match-up problems for the Pacers. A coaching staff that took advantage of the first game by making serious adjustments. While sitting next to coach Humphers, I saw no significant adjustments from Grant in that game. And by the way, Grant has nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about but a lot to be proud of. That state win was "HUGE" in 2008. Truth be told, many had Grant returning to the state bowl game within the next year or two and that included well known and highly regarded coaches. But as we all know you cannot win on talent alone. Now, I know you're not going to concede or even agree with me on anything because you're logic to you is always right. That being said, the day I see you do that will be the day I say you are the man. I'm good.
3 VANILLA HANDOFFS @ 2:18:
CT4L
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Like you said, "you were sitting in the stands" next to another coach! Does that mean you were not in the playoff's that season? Were you even coaching at that time? My point in the entire "Top 5" debate, was to stand up for a coach who wasn't even mentioned on that list. I backed up my opinion with his accomplishments.
CT4L why do yo keep talking about Cattalico. You say you never say anything about him and didn't even put him in your top 10 let alone top 5 . But you continue to use his name which you said in an earlier thread you don't. I played college football and I've watched Cattalico with the kids pre game and in game and dude can coach
Well my bad.... I figured since Nixon beat Coach Al three consecutive years in a row (2011,2012,2013) and commands a 4-2 series it was a reasonable choice. But in regards to body of work, yes Coach Al is on another level compared to Nixon. Doesn't mean he's the better coach especially when the head 2 head outcomes belong to Nixon.
Without a doubt pacerguru, you have all the rights in the world to stand up for Coach Al. Just as the next guy has those same rights to stand up for another coach. Gotta love freedom of speech or freedom to express your opinions on a High School Football Site. That's what makes America great! Cocaine is a killer and Trump has the sniffles.
CT4L
Color me shocked that you'd tout a 4-2 regular season series advantage while failing to factor in the 2 Section titles and State championship Coach AL and the Pacers have won during Coach Nixon's tenure at EG. You sure do have an odd way of looking at things. How likely do you think it is that Coach Nixon would trade that 4-2 advantage for just one of the two section titles?
You may want to re-examine what a reasonable choice really is.
I've never walked away from a Grant game thinking they won because of coaching. They're always the much bigger and much faster team on the field. I'm not saying Coach Al isn't a good coach. Obviously he has to know what he's doing considering the success he's had for such a long period of time. I just don't think he's in the conversation for best coaches in the area. It would be interesting to see if he would have similar success at a school with lesser talent.
First of all young man, I'm (RESPONDING) to posters in regards to Coach Cattolico and you included. Secondly, prove to me where I said, I never say anything about him. Thirdly, I've already told you why I didn't put him in my top 10 so stop being overly redundant with your post. Did you read where I said, "since he's been out of the game for a few years, I didn't put him in anything because I didn't feel it was necessary at this time." I also told you, "I want to give the young "Cat" time to build his Sheldon program into a powerhouse before I put him in my top 5. Since he's not in my top five I decided to wait." My decision on this not yours. Do you comprehend what you read or do you even care?
Here's your post on this thread.
1. WOW CT4L no coach Cat (So basically H.E.AT., you just proved that you're going to target me if I mention coach Cat or if I don't) Are you a relative or something?
2. What 2 years did Cattalico win section titles. I know he won in 2010 when they finished #8 Nation in Max preps excellent 25. 2011 they may have even been better but after steam rolling yjeir first 3 playoff teams 154-26 they lost Ship to Granite Bay. I recall PG had some injuries to key players in that game. (So this was to keep the convo going about coach Cat) Clear once again.
3. CT4L you really aren't that dumb i hope. You've been posting lately about how good coach Cat is. Then you put a list of your top 10 and he isn't included. (So) What are you fishing for H.E.A.T? It's beyond obvious bruh.
That being said, I've talked up other coaches over the years on this board that I didn't put in my top 10 as well. Such as Mott of Napa, Papadopoulos of Vacaville, Benzel of Rocklin and QB Guru Floyd Burnsed of Miramonte and so on and so on. To make a long story short over the years I've talked about coaches such as Beam and Carter of the OAL, to Hansen and Lavorato of the CCS, to Bergman, Blanton and Kahn of the NCS to Turner, Nelms and Lombardi of the SJS. And not once did I notice you saying why do I bring up them. I was on here praising Lavorato big time days before they upset El Cerrito in the NCS DIII Championship game. Where were you then? Where were you when I was talking up Blanton for the past four years during his SJS run? I can go on and on but I think that fish you were looking for got away. That being said, if you didn't know this Site is for talking about past and current players as well as coaches so I will be discussing all coaches in a respectful way. Hope we can move on from these silly redundant post. Got it? Good.....
CT4L
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Someone could say the same about Bob Ladouceur. Would he have had anywhere near the same success at a public school? Thing is, we can only judge reality, not hypothetical situations. The reality is both men have coached at only 1 location and each have done exceptionally well in their own way. What might have happened provided different circumstances really doesn't matter because it's not reality.
I think a better way to evaluate and judge is to consider what transpired prior to taking over the program.
As previously posed, if it was so easy to win at Grant Union because of all the talent, how come the Pacers never won a section title before Coach AL took over the football program?
In the first 20 year existence of the Capital City Championships/CIF Playoffs, they didn't manage a single title. However, upon Mike's hiring they won a section title in just his 2nd season as head coach. And they then went on to win 3 in his first 9 seasons.
So when you look in the rear view mirror and consider that they won 0 section titles in the 20 seasons prior to his tenure as the head football coach but then went on to win 6 section titles during the next 20 seasons all under his leadership -- what does that say?
The reality is, while they were certainly a successful program, they weren't winning titles or really even coming close until Coach AL took over. If it was all about the talent, they would have been winning long beforehand.
I don't understand how anybody could reasonably argue any different.
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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.All evidence to the contrary, my friend.
CT4L
I think another thing to discuss is what someone's perception or definition of "coaching" is. You don't have to be a proficient X's and O's guy or a tactical genius to qualify as a good or even great coach. In the NFL, NCAA and HS, we've seen countless offensive/defensive geniuses fail miserably because there's a lot more that goes into it -- most of which is far more important than scheme. You have to be able to teach fundamentals and, most importantly, motivate and get your players to buy into what you selling. While Coach AL might not be a tactical savant, he obviously is a great communicator, motivator and teacher of young men. That unto itself makes him a great coach. The vast accomplishments are just icing on the cake that further cements it.
His stellar 262-51-3 record over 25+ seasons, 7 section titles, and an Open Division State Championship speaks for itself. And the fact that nothing remotely close to any of it was accomplished at the school beforehand prove to me that the guy is a helluva coach and worthy of mention among the very best.
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Good post TR!
I'll be honest, I couldn't tell you anything about Grant before Coach Al took over. Have they always had the talent they've had the last 20 years? If not, that could explain the lack of section championships before Coach Al took over.
I'd argue that Lad built DLS from the ground up and won his fair share of games against teams that were bigger, faster, and more talented than his DLS teams. Obviously, nobody really compares to Lad though.
And like I said, I do think Al is a good coach. There's just a handful of coaches in the area that I think are better, at least from an X's and O's standpoint. Of course there's a lot more that goes into being a successful coach than that. Al must thrive in some of the other aspects that go into being a successful coach.
Another solid post TR!
You posted this while I was typing my response haha. I think we're on the same page.
Yes, they had loads of talent during the 70's and 80's. They've kind of always been RB, WR and LB U and blessed with speed all over the field. During my playing days they had one of their better teams that was the #1 passing offense in the State at the time, led by Aaron Garcia who went on to star in the arena league and ended his career with the most TD passes in pro history. That team was upset in the semifinals (just like the 2009 team) by a last second FG.
During a time when run offenses dominated the landscape, Garcia threw for over 3500 yards and 40 TD's, which was unheard of and a record at the time.
In 83, they had a stud player named Channing WIlliams, who is the uncle of D.J. Williams (De La Salle) and Worrell Williams (who also starred at Grant).
He most certainly did. No argument there. The point in mentioning him is that it has been debated numerous times over the years whether he could have built the same program or been anywhere near as prolific and consistent at a public school. All we really know is that he was highly successful at De La Salle. Everything else is pure speculation.
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CT4[/QUOTE]
I never said anything about Cattolico. What are you talking about? I talked about 20 other coaches and never mentioned Coach Cat once. You got me all messed up in the game bro. But carry on......
CT4L[/QUOTE
COMMON hit us with your most famous line
Huh????
CT4
You're right. And I actually know that. It's getting late and I'm getting punchy. Derwin is their father. If my punchy memory serves, DJ is named after him.
The last message was missing thunder. But surely you don't want to forget to address the post up above where you asked me to PROVE something.
Proofs in the pudding
Proofs in the pudding
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