WCAL Scores

[Streak One]

Presentation bat St. Ignatius 58-36. Pres put three players in double figures between 10 and 12 points.

Mitty beat Notre Dame 76-35 (Karisma Ortiz had 25 points)

Sacred Heart Cathedral beat Valley Christian 56-40 (interesting this game wasn't more competitive)

 

[Scott2138]

Presentation bat St. Ignatius 58-36. Pres put three players in double figures between 10 and 12 points.

Mitty beat Notre Dame 76-35 (Karisma Ortiz had 25 points)

Sacred Heart Cathedral beat Valley Christian 56-40 (interesting this game wasn't more competitive)

Valley Christian is ranked to high at 6, SHC is ranked to low at 13.

 

[SouthBayHoopFan]

I'm less surprised about the SHC - VC score than the Pres - SI score.

Valley Christian had to play their WCAL opener AT Sacred Heart Cathedral. You always have to be 5 - 8 points better to win a WCAL game on the road. And anyone who has ever watched a game at SHC knows you have to be 12 - 15 points better to win at SHC. Just how it is, and I expect a decidely different outcome when those two play on the hilltop in South San Jose.

But I do find the Pres - SI outcome surprising. Even though this game was AT Presentation, it was a 22 point margin. Maybe the SI transfers will need some time to assimilate? (And unlike Brookside Christian's transfers, they don't get to come up to speed against middle school level competition. Not dissing BC here, just telling it like it is.) Still, I think this might show that Pres is better than I expected. I actually remember speakng to Wade over the summer and he said he liked the look of this year's team, but I figured he was just coach-talking. Maybe not. Maybe Pres will be challenging SHC and VC for second place this year. Especially since SI and SF seem to be trending down after easy preseason schedules.

 

[ClayK]

Wade seldom oversells his team, so if he says he's going to be pretty good, he's going to be pretty good, or a lot better.

A point about SI's transfers: Though talented, I believe they came from smaller schools, and playing in the WCAL is a lot different than playing in the BCL. There's a learning curve involved ...

 

[RespectBBGame]

Southbay

I guess you don't know about one of Brookside transfers that played as a freshman against Mitty in the Norcal D2 Championship game. She is no rookie to top level play because playing with McNair Coleman and Tucker. But I guess you can question it until Brookside plays Pinewood in the Bakery Corner.

 

[colhenrylives]

... and Pinewood is outstanding, one of very best in NorCal. Again.

 

[SouthBayHoopFan]

Once again I think you may be confused. Mitty and SMS played for the NorCal D2 championship in 2012. No red-shirting in HS right? So anyone who was a freshman that year would have graduated by now. 2012 -- 2013 -- 2014 -- 2015, use your fingers if necessary.

And btw, I personally think Pinewood is a notch down from last year. They're in the same logjam as Brookside and 8 or 10 other teams -- not really top-tier open-caliber, but in danger of getting pulled into the open anyway. And if Brookside beats them (which is certainly possible) it will strengthen the case for including Brookside in the Open, especially if Brookside continues to beat other D5 team by 101 points.

 

[Paytc]

... and Pinewood is outstanding, one of very best in NorCal. Again.

No disrespect to the players because without the players a coach can only do so much. But I truly respect the way Doc encourages and brings along young players. He is definitely one of the most accountable and best coaches in girls high school basketball. His players play well together and you see vast improvement in the kids as a team and as individuals. He knows how to put the right combination of players on the floor and when to step back and let the kids play. I think he is one of the few who could coach and do well at any level.

Kids that are fortunate enough to have one of the areas top coaches don't realize just how fortunate they are. A coach can make or break kids chances to reach their max potential or even get anywhere close to better. Making a kid a better player and a better person because of your coaching is reason to celebrate a coach. Hats off to all coaches who take their responsibility seriously(put their egos aside) and courageously get the job done.

 

[RespectBBGame]

Southbay

Mitty vs McNair 2014 at Arco Arena to answer your question. I will use my finger when SHC lost Brookside when then wasnt even fully loaded lol lol.

 

[pdubpadre]

No disrespect to the players because without the players a coach can only do so much. But I truly respect the way Doc encourages and brings along young players. He is definitely one of the most accountable and best coaches in girls high school basketball. His players play well together and you see vast improvement in the kids as a team and as individuals. He knows how to put the right combination of players on the floor and when to step back and let the kids play. I think he is one of the few who could coach and do well at any level.

Kids that are fortunate enough to have one of the areas top coaches don't realize just how fortunate they are. A coach can make or break kids chances to reach their max potential or even get anywhere close to better. Making a kid a better player and a better person because of your coaching is reason to celebrate a coach. Hats off to all coaches who take their responsibility seriously(put their egos aside) and courageously get the job done.

Amen! I couldn't agree with you more. My daughter had the opportunity to play for Doc, and feels very blessed to have Doc the "person" in her life today.

 

[Paytc]

Amen! I couldn't agree with you more. My daughter had the opportunity to play for Doc, and feels very blessed to have Doc the "person" in her life today.

pdubpadre,

Your daughter was very fortunate. A good coach will usually leave a lasting impression on a child. They help build and bring out positive character a child can carry with them throughout the rest of their lives. Competition or "negative competition" as I see it, has put the focus on winning at all cost instead of individual and team continued improvement.

Measuring a coach by wins and loses only blurs the capability to truly see how good a coach one is. Because it usually doesn't take into account the number of talented/skilled players, or lack there of ,a winning coach has. Nor does it say how many players on the team saw significant improvements in their game and a boost in their overall self esteem and confidence.

Thinking about winning over the responsibility to help kids build confidence and self esteem is misplacing values and priorities. I like to win as much as anyone else. But not at all cost or by any means necessary. I don't value an experience by the numbers on a scoreboard. I value what you take away from the experience. If you value the right things the scoreboard won't define your victories. You can "Win Anyway " It will also take game pressure away making it easier to win or be successful.

And only a select few coaches are comfortable enough in their own skin to put the children's overall development above their own ego, insecurities, and selfishness. Sounds like your child was one of the fortunate ones to have had a coach who understood what coaching is really about.

 

[Norcal_Fan]

While I agree with what you're saying, I think that the Positive coaching alliance has a good emphasis. Winning with honor. They say that it's okay to have an emphasis on winning, BUT it's the path we take to get there that really matters. When I played (back in the dark ages with the the peach basket), coaches held their players acceptable. NO talking back. No bitchy parents questioning the coach. Kids had self confidence that if they were able to make it through a season, they could conquer anything because the season was grueling and a player was pushed beyond measure. There was a long-lasting impression that my coach made to me and he was a HUGE prick. But he taught us discipline, honor, and cooperation, and most of all teamwork. We appreciated his hard, tough-nose attitude and can attribute our success to his hard coaching style.

Now a days, especially in girls basketball, you have to have meetings about having meetings. You have to talk about your feelings. You can't yell at Johnny or Sue because you'll damage their self efficacy. Parents can RIP a coach and not be held accountable by the administration. You have to be calm and collected on the sidelines or else you'll upset the team and parents AND can lose your job. Millennial and their parents make me sick.

I have personally seen Doc do some training sessions and he is an amazing technically fundamental coach. Not sure what his playing background is, but he can sure teach shooting. In the games, he's quite and fiery, which is what I think a good combo. If my daughter was in high school (she's older and graduated now) I would have her play for him in a heart beat. I would also have her play for SMS coach or the Mitty coach. They expect results and if they don't get it its just not acceptable. I like that!

 

[Paytc]

While I agree with what you're saying, I think that the Positive coaching alliance has a good emphasis. Winning with honor. They say that it's okay to have an emphasis on winning, BUT it's the path we take to get there that really matters. When I played (back in the dark ages with the the peach basket), coaches held their players acceptable. NO talking back. No bitchy parents questioning the coach. Kids had self confidence that if they were able to make it through a season, they could conquer anything because the season was grueling and a player was pushed beyond measure. There was a long-lasting impression that my coach made to me and he was a HUGE prick. But he taught us discipline, honor, and cooperation, and most of all teamwork. We appreciated his hard, tough-nose attitude and can attribute our success to his hard coaching style.

Now a days, especially in girls basketball, you have to have meetings about having meetings. You have to talk about your feelings. You can't yell at Johnny or Sue because you'll damage their self efficacy. Parents can RIP a coach and not be held accountable by the administration. You have to be calm and collected on the sidelines or else you'll upset the team and parents AND can lose your job. Millennial and their parents make me sick.

I have personally seen Doc do some training sessions and he is an amazing technically fundamental coach. Not sure what his playing background is, but he can sure teach shooting. In the games, he's quite and fiery, which is what I think a good combo. If my daughter was in high school (she's older and graduated now) I would have her play for him in a heart beat. I would also have her play for SMS coach or the Mitty coach. They expect results and if they don't get it its just not acceptable. I like that!

Norcal_Fan,


Far as the Positive Coaching Alliance goes...... To me winning is the "target". You always aim to win. Getting better as a team and individuals should be the goal. One you can always control(getting better). Winning is not controllable. But you should aim towards winning, and play to win every time.
No one can win every time, so the goal should be bigger than winning. I agree the path that is taken is what matters most. And that path has to be flexible IMO. Integrity is the only thing that should be consistent outside of the target and the goal.

I agree with 95% of what you are saying. The only thing that I have a slight issue with is I don't agree that boys and girls should be coached in the same manner. I believe generally speaking there is a difference in the two genders. Yes, there are some exceptions on both sides. Some boys have a bit of sugar in their tank and some girls grow facial hair. But there is a difference. As there is in coaching a talented high IQ team and a less skilled and less knowledgable team. You must adjust to each group. You can't use the one shoe fits all mentality.

I think coaching has evolved to a point where coaches don't have to be over the top with being an A-hole.You can make it clear who's running or leading the team without being an A-hole about it. I think a coach should set the tone by being far more accountable than they could ever expect a child to be. I think the coach should be big enough to humble themselves at times and admit no one (to include a coach) is always right. I personally prefer player coaches. Those who empower the players to think for themselves and communicate well among their team mates. Now it sounds like the A-hole style worked for you. And I experienced that style too so I understand it. In some situations it is needed more than in others.

The point I stress is you must adapt to the situation at hand. And consider the group you are coaching. I would not suggest you coach a 4th grade girls CYO team as you would a predominately senior led varsity boys or girls team.

I agree with you the parent involvement is many times way over the top. But a good coach runs their team themselves because they set boundaries, limits, and make it clear who's leading the team. That is why those who are fortunate enough to get one of the better coaches (and I like all the ones you mentioned and a few others you didn't mention) are far more fortunate than others.

Remember accountability should start at the top.The coach is the leader. The coach is at the top. You can't ask someone to be accountable if you are not personally accountable or your a hypocrite.

 

[Norcal_Fan]

LOL yes the A-hole style worked for me but it's not for everybody. I think you can learn in both styles, albeit a jerk face coach or a players style coach. It's funny, people look at Coach K at Duke and say he's a players coach, but what people don't see is coach K ripping kids in the locker when the camera's are off. I agree that parental involvement is WAY over the top, especially in the more affluent areas. They need to let kids advocate for themselves and learn how to talk to coaches..not fight their battles for them.

In regards to how a person should be coached, I loved what my daughters HS coach said. As soon as you cross that line, you're basketball players..not boys or girls. Treat them the same and hold the same expectation. Regardless if you're coaching at SMS, Clayton Valley, Las Lomas OR at Diablo HS, I think you coach kids the same. I will say this: the A-hole attitude coach probably no longer has ANY place in HS sports but to dismiss his/her style as being bad for the game is something I just don't 100% agree with. The feel good, everyone medals mentality is terrible for competition and for real life values. I'm probably in the minority here. Good dialogue though.

 

[Paytc]

LOL yes the A-hole style worked for me but it's not for everybody. I think you can learn in both styles, albeit a jerk face coach or a players style coach. It's funny, people look at Coach K at Duke and say he's a players coach, but what people don't see is coach K ripping kids in the locker when the camera's are off. I agree that parental involvement is WAY over the top, especially in the more affluent areas. They need to let kids advocate for themselves and learn how to talk to coaches..not fight their battles for them.

In regards to how a person should be coached, I loved what my daughters HS coach said. As soon as you cross that line, you're basketball players..not boys or girls. Treat them the same and hold the same expectation. Regardless if you're coaching at SMS, Clayton Valley, Las Lomas OR at Diablo HS, I think you coach kids the same. I will say this: the A-hole attitude coach probably no longer has ANY place in HS sports but to dismiss his/her style as being bad for the game is something I just don't 100% agree with. The feel good, everyone medals mentality is terrible for competition and for real life values. I'm probably in the minority here. Good dialogue though.

There is a slight difference in opinion. Your approach is more of the "one way" to coach and do things no matter the group, age, skill level, or circumstance.

My approach is more of the "Anyway that works" for the particular group, age, skill level, or circumstance at hand. I believe as in life the game is constantly evolving and we must adapt to the changes at times. I love the ole school too !

I know those were the good ole days, but time keeps passing, and things keep changing. Some changes are good, some not so good. But change is the only constant. We can't stop it even if we wanted to. It's probably best that we can't or we would all be bored to death.

I think where we probably agree is..... when the coach and the players are each personally accountable there is a much stronger "team."

And when the team is stronger because of accountability and coach and players putting "team" first...... parents, the media, refs, other teams, the economy etc... can't pull the "team" apart.

Fun discussion indeed. Thanks for your perspective.

 

[Norcal_Fan]

Yeah, I'm not saying there is ONE way to coach, but if it's that coaches decision to be an A-hole and it's his/her style, why not just deal with it, suck it up, and continue to play hard; especially if he/she is successful!I find that too many times you read about parents having too much control. They don't like a coach, they run to the admin and say that they're not talking enough to the kids, or they're abusive, or whatever it takes to get a coach ousted. What parents don't understand is that coaches make minimal money and do it cause they love basketball. Coaches need to understand that one size doesn't fit all, especially in this day and age with parents and players that need a therapist when that they are doing is corrected.

I totally agree that a 3rd grade CYO team shouldn't be coached in the same way as a JV or varsity team. The expectations should be the same in that coaches get players to play hard, respect one another, and develop.

I also agree that a team is stronger when you have accountability. You know that you have built a program when players are the ones who are holding players accountable and the coach only has to worry about coaching. I know that's ideal but I'd like to see if this is the case where winning programs have this culture in place.

 

[ClayK]

Getting girls to hold other girls accountable is probably the most difficult aspect of coaching girls. There's the whole group consensus thing going on that involve a lot of feelings on all sides.

A slightly different example: I had a very good shooter who would not shoot the ball enough. She said, as a senior, "You've been telling me that since I got here, but I don't want the other girls to think I'm a ball hog." So even though it would have been better for the team for her to shoot more, she wouldn't because of how she felt about the other girls' attitudes.

 

[Paytc]

Getting girls to hold other girls accountable is probably the most difficult aspect of coaching girls. There's the whole group consensus thing going on that involve a lot of feelings on all sides.

A slightly different example: I had a very good shooter who would not shoot the ball enough. She said, as a senior, "You've been telling me that since I got here, but I don't want the other girls to think I'm a ball hog." So even though it would have been better for the team for her to shoot more, she wouldn't because of how she felt about the other girls' attitudes.

Clay,

I don't think the girls should necessarily be the ones to hold one another accountable. I think accountability starts and should be controlled from the top. The coach is at the top. The coach is the one who I think should hold players accountable. Otherwise bullying comes into play and older and bigger kids threaten and/or oppose their will on smaller and younger kids.

The girl who you told to shoot should have been held accountable by you the coach. Bench her if she continues to not follow your instructions and hurts the team because of her fear, passive, or selfishness. Then she could blame why she is shooting so much on the coach. And if other kids have a problem with that (unless the coach is afraid of the kids and/or parents which may happen with a few of the coward coaches) the child has a scapegoat and is insulated from the bullying.

Kids should never run the team. The coach should always set the tone and put the right kids in the right lanes and empower the kids then get out of the way. Unless you have to step in from time to time to tell some to shoot more and others to shoot less. Or some to take players off the dribble and attack the basket depending on skill set and ability. Or to make other adjustments or substitutions.

Again I don't think a coach or anyone should be a bully. But the coach should be the authority head. And the Head Coach should run the team.

Clay you are right in noticing girls are a bit different. It's almost like they speak a different language.
You can see more swag in most boys body language than you do most girls.

 

[Paytc]

Yeah, I'm not saying there is ONE way to coach, but if it's that coaches decision to be an A-hole and it's his/her style, why not just deal with it, suck it up, and continue to play hard; especially if he/she is successful!I find that too many times you read about parents having too much control. They don't like a coach, they run to the admin and say that they're not talking enough to the kids, or they're abusive, or whatever it takes to get a coach ousted. What parents don't understand is that coaches make minimal money and do it cause they love basketball. Coaches need to understand that one size doesn't fit all, especially in this day and age with parents and players that need a therapist when that they are doing is corrected.

I totally agree that a 3rd grade CYO team shouldn't be coached in the same way as a JV or varsity team. The expectations should be the same in that coaches get players to play hard, respect one another, and develop.

I also agree that a team is stronger when you have accountability. You know that you have built a program when players are the ones who are holding players accountable and the coach only has to worry about coaching. I know that's ideal but I'd like to see if this is the case where winning programs have this culture in place.

Norcal_ Fan,

I'm cool with a bit of an A-hole under some circumstances. But I am not cool with anyone bullying or abusing their power. We all know a few who have taken it overboard and kicked a few players in the A-hole. So I say "Win Anyway" that works with honor and integrity.

And I agree that players should positively encourage their team mates and place a few positive demands on one another. But I think the coach has to be the one who ultimately holds each and every child accountable, not other kids. Because leaving it entirely up to kids opens children up to bullying. Older and bigger kids will often threaten and impose their will on younger and smaller children. That is why the Head coach must ultimately place the demands of accountability for his/her team IMO.

 

[mkbgdns]

So Clay, did you try to get the other girls to change their attitude toward your Shooter shooting? Is it possible that they didn't really feel that way, but the Shooter was afraid that they did?

I know that there's an attitude of distain in some quarters toward too much touchy-feely in coaching, but a team meeting with you, if necessary, advocating for attitude change for the good of the team in the Shooter and her teammates might have helped. Or, you standing by while the kids aired it out (and intervening if it got to blows) might have improved the situation. Or, I suppose, made it worse. I guess as the Coach (and the Adult In the Room), you would feel responsibility to influence the outcome in a positive way.

There are multiple studies showing that girl infants are more likely than boy infants to cry in response to hearing another infant's cry. They come off the assembly line more wired for empathy, mimicry, or whatever. They're wired different. But they can still hit the 3.

 

[ClayK]

All good points ... in the end, though, by far the most effective pressure in adolescents is peer pressure -- especially if the coach has been working with the same group for a long time. And, after just having this talk with my team yesterday, I think it's important for kids to realize that almost everything they will accomplish will be in a group setting (at work, even as a family) and the group dynamic must allow for, if not encourage, peer pressure to perform at a certain standard. There won't always be an authority figure to push the group to do its best (or push an individual, for that matter) and it's vital to learn how to work from within a group to accomplish goals.

Sure, it might be easier for the coach to make the call, but in the long run, losing a game or two so that young people see that they must step up themselves if they want good things to happen is more valuable in the long run.

 

[Paytc]

All good points ... in the end, though, by far the most effective pressure in adolescents is peer pressure -- especially if the coach has been working with the same group for a long time. And, after just having this talk with my team yesterday, I think it's important for kids to realize that almost everything they will accomplish will be in a group setting (at work, even as a family) and the group dynamic must allow for, if not encourage, peer pressure to perform at a certain standard. There won't always be an authority figure to push the group to do its best (or push an individual, for that matter) and it's vital to learn how to work from within a group to accomplish goals.

Sure, it might be easier for the coach to make the call, but in the long run, losing a game or two so that young people see that they must step up themselves if they want good things to happen is more valuable in the long run.

Clay,

Those are excellent points. Especially allowing the "team" some freedom to work well together and figure things out.I have said the coach should over see everything and step out of the way and let the players who are most capable take the lead. But the coach has to know when to step in because it is the coach's team, not the players. The coach has to be the most accountable IMO.

A coach should not micr-manage. A coach should empower the players. But the coach (simular to a manager on the job) has to know when to step in to maintain the proper checks and balances. Because like the manager it is the coach's head that will roll if things are not maintained properly.


Thanks for your perspective !