I initially thought one or both might get bumped up to Division 2 based on both making the D3 finals last year, but it sure looks like they're all the way back in Division 6 based on both Calpreps and the NCS site. Who thought this was a good idea?!?
What division are CN and Marin Catholic in NCS for the playoffs this season?
- Thread starter noknight
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They will be moved up to D4 but good chance one or both play in NCS Open/D1 in which both will be done quickly
If CN runs the table they will be in the OPEN and most likely get a home game 1st round. Of course that's still a HUGE question as they have to get by both San Marin and Marin Catholic (at MC) and as we all know CN hasn't exactly had the best results against MC in the Sanchez era or in fact thIs CENTURY. Still lots to decide on the field!
its kind of like be careful what you wish for. I think there is a decent probability that Newman runs the table and ends up getting pulled up into D1/Open. They would have a good shot of winning at home but then in round 2 would end up playing a Pitt which would be a bad matchup. This is the year Newman is a legit D2-D3 SBG type team. But deep down I would love to see them play a few games with the big boys.
But I don't take SM or MC lightly like @northbaybbguru said. Lots of football left.
But I don't take SM or MC lightly like @northbaybbguru said. Lots of football left.
If the NCS was solely looking to have the best representation at the Bowl Games, have DLS in open (of course) make a huge gate with Pittsburg, then another huge gate with Pitt and SRV for D1. Put CN in D2 and MC in D3.
Damn, I sound like a private homer now, lol.
Damn, I sound like a private homer now, lol.
Newman needs to stay away from the Open, it’s only 2 rounds and would have to play DLS or Pitt in the first round. It’d be 1 and done. Put them in D2
CN won't have a choice if they run the table. They'd be NCS Open bound and they wouldn't get DLS or Pitt in the 1st round as they are currently sitting at 4 behind DLS,PItt and SRV in the rankings. CN would get 1 home game at least. Im not sure who would be 5 as it looked like it would be El Cerrito but now with the forfeits not sure.
Again..CN still has to beat SM and MC and that is going to be tough to do. At MC on a Saturday during the day (instead of under the lights on a friday)is such a screwball/different type home game. I think it's a big home field advantage for MC. IMO...
MC Day games are the absolute worse. Its like old Jesuit. Huge advantage too like you said.
And yes Newman wouldn't get DLS or Pitt until round 2. Round 1 could be a California High or Liberty Type.
Would love to see a Newman/SRV game.
Nah you want to play the best and challenge yourself. It’s how you get better.
It depends on what Seed they get…. If the Open is the same it’s 1 v 8 and 2 v 7 and the winners play for the Open Title…. The rest of the Seeds are in D1…..
So if CN is 3-6 they would be in the D1 Bracket and could make a run but would still have to deal with SRV and Either PITT or DLS if they get by SRV…..
CN is currently Ranked #4 in NCS behind DLS, PITT and SRV…..
Exactly! So if CN ends up #3, they’d get a home game vs #6, and then would host most likely SRV, with the winner playing the DLS/Pitt loser for the D1 title and NorCal berth. If they end up #4, then the 2nd round would be at SRV.
Still a lot of football to be played, but I see DLS as the #1 seed, Pitt the #2, & SRV a lock for the #3 & #4. If CN runs the table, they’d likely be in the #3 or #4 slot. The rest of the field is likely to come from Cal, Liberty, Amador Valley, and maybe CVC, MV or MC in the dreaded #8 seed to open at DLS. If Heritage beats Freedom this week, they’d take Freedom’s place.
The way that the NCS sees competitive equity is comical. If Newman loses to either San Marin or MC(both possibilities), the highest they can go is D4. As you can move up or down 2 Divisions based on what some genius thinks is competitive equity. The NCS is BY FAR the worst section in the State with how they have developed their system. It is unfortunate that the powers that be within the NCS were not willing to listen to those that understand common sense.
Newman absolutely dominated a very good San Marin team last night 31-3 and had 2 TD's in first half called back due to penalties. It could have been a lot worse. I would be shocked if they don't end up in the open from what I saw. San Marin who has a very good offense totaled 92 yards on the night. In fact I wouldn't want them to be in anything lower than D2. Huge game next week at Marin Catholic. That has to be the biggest game in Norcal. And realistically both MC and Newman are probably both open teams
@northbaybbguru , you know if Jamri Gentry is getting any looks? That kid is electric. Newman hasn't had that sort of speed in past.
@northbaybbguru , you know if Jamri Gentry is getting any looks? That kid is electric. Newman hasn't had that sort of speed in past.
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If MC beats Newman do they both go into Open/D1? I don’t want to see the loser “benefit” by going D4. Big downside to the format.
Saturday afternoon on turf is always tough. Although it shouldn’t be hot it’s a big home field advantage for MC.
Redwood-Adobe league is absolutely loaded this year. I pondered what would happen if CN lost to MC and thus lost the league champ. It seems to me that at least 1 RAAL team has to go to Open. And I think that has to be the RAAL champ. Will the coaching staff of both teams consider that scenario and play to it or will they coach their team to be the very best they can be regardless playoff placement. I don't know either coach well enough to guess what they will do.
The NCS selection process has to dig pretty deep into EBMAL, BVAL or even DFAL and WACFAL to avoid placing at least one RAAL team into Open. And now looking at the entire scope of teams available, having both CN and MC in Open is logical. But we all know sectional selection process, especially in the NCS section, is often not very logical.
The NCS selection process has to dig pretty deep into EBMAL, BVAL or even DFAL and WACFAL to avoid placing at least one RAAL team into Open. And now looking at the entire scope of teams available, having both CN and MC in Open is logical. But we all know sectional selection process, especially in the NCS section, is often not very logical.
In this instance, not a good idea in the playoffs. Play the best in the non league games, front part of the schedule. That’s how you get better. Getting overmatched in a playoff game doesn’t really improve your team, especially in a Division you wouldn’t normally play in. IMO anyway
Agreed. Although for teams like MC and Cardinal Newman, who are year in and year out solid, the prestige and playing against the DLS/Pitt types would be cool. They will be in the thick of it again every year.
For your average school, who is just having a good year, say American Canyon or Sonoma Valley, it would be a shame for them to be places in a bracket too high and go 1 and done or semis and out, after having once in a decade, or generation type seasons.
I’d venture to guess Monica Mertle and the girls hoops program at Newman would strongly disagree. Rewind some years back when they first got pulled up to the open and there was talk of how they didn't belong.. The program today is much stronger now and has competed at that higher level year in and year out. Same with Newman’s baseball program they’ve stepped up and is becoming in Norcal blue blood.
Hell, I remember when Valley Christian was a NCS class A team football team. Then they moved to the CCS. I remember the first year the rumblings of them going to the WCAL and how they were going to get crushed. Same thing with Orange Lutheran football. I remember watching them when they were division 11 SS team. They challenged their program and elevated it. At some point, you need to step out of your comfort zone to get better.
This is all true and I agree. For CN/MC who are always solid and have the resources to elevate. Open D1 for CN and probably MC this year sounds about right. Although their ceiling is much below DLS and probably Pittsburgh. You’re just not going to pull in the talent they can due to population. They should be able to compete with everyone else in NCS most years at minimum.
For your average public this isn’t true at all. Unless you can pull in students from outside the district or you’re in a growing area sometimes the talent ebbs and flows are very great and in HS football you’re only as good as your “Jimmys and Joes.”
Girls NCS Basketball Open tourney still allows participants to be placed in a divisional State tourney bracket. This is the best of both worlds. High competition in sectional playoffs, and reasonable chance at State Championship in the proper division. This NCS open/D1 structure for NCS football inhibits small schools like CN and MC from gaining a State Championship in years when they have the great teams. It seems to me it’s just a backdoor way of taking the private schools out of divisional playoffs. CN only has 527 coed students. To play teams like DLS and Pitt that have 2000+ students is inheritently lopsided.
One could argue playing more playoff games ( more than one), can make teams stronger, along with scheduling “reach” contests in preleague schedule.
One could argue playing more playoff games ( more than one), can make teams stronger, along with scheduling “reach” contests in preleague schedule.
“Competitive Equity” is generally a lose lose for small enrollment schools. Enrollment still is a factor and correlated to computer rankings. With the exception of city schools a bigger enrollment provides a bigger pool of athletes. Small schools are either pulled up to play bigger schools or bigger schools are sent down. Thus a lose, lose. Also CE punishes success and rewards mediocrity. That being said small good schools should want to move up to challenge themselves but the system to move should be voluntary. I would also let schools that historically underachieve be allowed to petition to move down. What we are seeing now with CE is the Strong are getting stronger and the Weak are getting weaker. CN and MC will be driven by CE to get better and will probably accomplish it by attracting more players from weak public schools who will get worse. I like enrollment based divisions with a voluntary open to give the top teams the chance to compete to be #1. Right now the playoffs seem meaningless once you get below Open/D1 and perhaps D2. Attendance and interest in HS sports playoffs seems to be declining with this new system. League play is more interesting with its traditional league rivalries.
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Preview of what to come?
NCS has their first CE bracket out today for volleyball. Take a look at some interesting small school overachievers against mediocre larger schools.
Just scraping the D3 bracket here for some interesting matchups.
D3
Roseland University Prep (463) Vs Liberty (2719)
Kelseyville (539) vs San Leandro (2513)
Like you said CE encourages privates and well funded suburban publics to improve. It really benefits mediocrity in large publics. It punishes small overachievers in the public’s.
No system is perfect. I’m curious to see how the NCS football brackets play out.
Id also venture that they more than likely increased their resources in order to elevate the program. Depends on how dedicated a program is to success.
All I know is the best Newman teams in the past would play St Mary's of Stockton in preseason and a few years these were games that came down the wire. St Mary's competes with DLS. I'm not saying Newman can play with DLS for 4 qtrs but I wouldn't be surprised if they compete no different than El Cerrito and St Marys did. I would say this is one of the better teams Newman has had. The D line is basically 3 kids who are going to play D1 football. Myers is comitted to Oregon State. Vaetoe will likely be playing at any college he wants. He's only a soph. Mckenzie has a couple D1aa offers. You have a future D1 QB and a few kids who are going to play college football. (Cargill, Gentry). Roster isn't huge but talent is.
You gotta get by MC this weekend which aint easy.
You gotta get by MC this weekend which aint easy.
Using a more centristic system based on enrollment should not allow any team of small enrollment to be ranked significantly higher than its enrollment-based grouping. In other words, CN and SM should be ranked very low in the NCS total ranking level. Yet they are very close to the top because they have competed with and beat teams stronger and larger enrollments than themselves.
I’m not sure that’s actually case with girls’ basketball. Like the boys, they rank all the teams that qualify for NorCals, and if 2 NCS teams make the NorCal Open, then 3 through 7 or so would go into D1. If a D4 team is good enough to be in the NCS Open, chances are they’d be put in the D1 bracket for NorCal as one of the strongest 7 teams.
Newman has always been known as a football school and have been dedicated to it’s success since Ed Lloyd showed up on campus.
Agree, but do you think that an Open appearance by CN in this year’s playoffs will lead to CN trying to compete in D1 every year going forward? I’m asking that based on the CN girls basketball program that you brought up. It takes a lot more resources and dedication to sustain football success. Though CN has long been established as a football power at the lower divisions, I don’t know if the demographics in that area can provide CN with enough to take the next step regularly. A good program that produces a team that punches above its weight for a season or two, doesn’t mean it belongs in The Open
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Honestly, there is no reason why Marin Catholic and Newman can't be top 4-5 NCS teams every year regardless of division. It's probably already happened on many occasions already.
I agree here. MC has about 750 students total. De La Salle, as an example, has 1000+ boys only. While CN and MC may occasionally have teams that can compete at a D1-type level, it's probably pretty rare. They won't have the depth of talent that De La Salle, Serra, etc will have. They should have the option to move up a few divisions but there is nothing wrong with competing two divisions up based on enrollment and winning - that should be okay based on the fact they're private with whatever advantages that provides but they're still small schools by enrollment.
That is a valid question. Could it be sustainable? Think that depends on the Admin and coaching stability and dedication honestly. The alumni support (and expectations lol) are definitely there.
You imagine if Newman had Anderson kid from Windsor? We wouldn't be talking about them belonging in the open. We would be talking about who they would be playing in norcal champ. They could do it year in and out but would need to get the best kids in the area. Windsor has built a great program and there just aren't enough kids to have the talent spread.
Down the road St Vincent Petaluma has snagged some good athletes from all over the North Bay the last 5 years.
Cloverdale, Windsor, Santa Rosa, Novato, Vallejo are all represented on their small roster now. This year they even got 2 transfers from Petaluma HS and an out of state.
I don’t see Newman Football playing the Transfer game much like that. Then again neither does De La Salle.
I agree. The NCS is not particularly deep this year. Yes, quality at the top, but amongst large schools, there's a big drop after DLS and Pitt (yes, I include SRV in that drop off). But that said, seeds 7 and 8 have pretty much always been fodder for the higher seeds in the NCS D-1 bracket. I don't see how both CN and MC are not among the top 8 in the section.
Right now, San Marin is rated #8 in the section by Calpreps. I would not like to see them in D-1/Open. The "for the good of the bracket" rule should be used there and move them to D-2 (sorry Liberty).
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What about the small public schools that routinely get blasted by CN and MC?
The NCS setup has always favored just a handful of teams. DLS in D-1, SRV in D-2, and CN/MC in D-4. Same teams dominating the same teams every year.
Do CN or MC belong in D-1/Open? I don't know, but for sure they don't belong anywhere lower than D-2. If they were in any other NorCal section, they would not be allowed to hide in D-4 like they've done for so long. Central Catholic in the SJS (D-I) and Palma in the CCS (D-I-III) are examples of small private schools that have played up and had success.
We should remember that one of the driving forces of competitive equity was a very powerful Valley Christian team clobbering a small public school (Pacific Grove) in the CCS D-IV playoffs many years ago. Since then, at least the CCS has been trying to figure out how to eliminate complete mismatches like that. Maybe this new NCS system still has work to do, but at least it's a step in the right direction.
I think something like the new CCS system could probably work pretty well in the NCS. Declare certain leagues (not just teams) as being at certain levels (A-F). Teams can only play 1 division up or down from their league level. All A teams (BVAL and EBAL-M) could only be in D-1 or D-2. B teams (DFAL, EBAL-V, etc.) in D-1 thru D-3. C teams (RE-A, etc.) D-2 thru D-4 and so on.
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I think that’s the elephant in the room; the huge drop off in football quality amongst D1 schools in the BVAL and the EBAL. The Monte Vista’s, the Foothills, The Freedom’s, the occasional Libery’s and Antioch’s. The Clayton Valley’s which should have played in D1 most years. When those schools were relevant, and they were fairly recently, there was zero talk of MC and CN being considered for The Open /D1 playoffs. Those of us who love HS football need to take a closer look at why so many decent football schools have fallen by the wayside. Monte Vista was a prominent football school for decades. Cal High has been very relevant before. Have demographics changed that much?
