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Brackets!!

How about this? Take every team that qualifies in a section, and rank them 1 through 120 (or whatever). That's what NorCals does, and essentially that's what each section does because it winds up seeding every team

You keep saying that's what norcal does but it clearly does not. There is no way in hell that San Leandro, Clovis, and American belong in D2. There's no way VC, SI, and maybe (MAYBE) Menlo belong in D1. Clovis could also easily be D1 with their schedule.

The open division...it is what it is. But there should be true seedings in 1-6 and Frankly, I don't think they spent much time looking at head to head, common opponents, etc or else this would be much different. Winning a section championship meant something...no matter the section. I just don't get the rhyme or reason for any of these decisions. If I"m a section champ sitting at an 8-10 seed, im pretty pissed. I always thought you wanted to protect those guys....
 
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How about D3? Can anyone explain how Merced, with a 6.5 SOS per MaxPreps, gets bumped to D2 after losing the Section final by 17? Meanwhile Placer, 10.9 SOS, stays in D3, with a 3-seed no less, after losing to Merced at home in the D3 semis. And don't get me started on Christian Brothers -- but I will. Three D3 Section titles in five consecutive final appearances, and a current 16.8 SOS. Yet they get a 9 seed in D2! I get the bump to D2, but someone please explain the seeding logic. Someone? Anyone? Bueller?
 
State Championships should be enrollment based. The only exception should be that any team could elect to go to a higher division or to Open, provided that an irrevocable election is submitted by December 1.

Right now there are no division championships because there are no divisions. There are just clumsy assignments of teams to tournament brackets called divisions.

But enrollment based has led to Top players magically transferring to smaller schools. They then beat on truly small schools. Brookside, West Campus, they had nice magical runs vs the lower divisions. Where are they now?

Bottom line to me is, they say COMPETITIVE equity but they are not doing the work to make it so. I call the committee lazy.
 
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There is no logic to the norcal seeding. You will find discrepancies all over in every division.
Basketball people should be doing the seeding. At least you can try to place teams geographically better if they are 9-16 seed. Section champions should also get an automatic home game 1st round only regardless of seed.
 
They need to go back to school enrollments for seeding. We all know the Private/Chater schools that focus on athletics. They can create a division for those schools without hurting the College preps, Cristol Ray, Urban and other private programs.

This will be a once in a life time team (Harriel, Lesane, Goodwin and the Jordan Twins) for me, if I stay at Antelope. If I move to a private/charter school with breaks in enrollment fee and no boundaries, I’d be willing to play anyone in the open division.

I’m coaching a group of girls who all attended Antelope Crossings middle school at the same time and moved on to Antelope high. We should be allowed to make a run at the D2 title per our enrollment. Public school talent will always be a constant moving cycle, Highlands High has not won a section title in any sport sense 1983.

I believe Clovis West should not be forced in the open unless they request to play up.
 
But enrollment based has led to Top players magically transferring to smaller schools. They then beat on truly small schools. Brookside, West Campus, they had nice magical runs vs the lower divisions. Where are they now?

Bottom line to me is, they say COMPETITIVE equity but they are not doing the work to make it so. I call the committee lazy.

Brookside is private and West Campus is a charter. They should have place in a division like them. As a matter of fact, Brookside was placed in the Open with coach Que.
 
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Well, I said Antelope was good enough to play in the Open and I’m sticking with that. Their lower seed makes them my long shot pick. Possibly going up vs the #1 seed in game two is tough but I’m taking Antelope!! Have to beat them all anyway.

By the way Mitty is D2 enrollment based as are many top programs.
 
Well, I said Antelope was good enough to play in the Open and I’m sticking with that. Their lower seed makes them my long shot pick. Possibly going up vs the #1 seed in game two is tough but I’m taking Antelope!! Have to beat them all anyway.

By the way Mitty is D2 enrollment based as are many top programs.

At least Antelope gets a home game as the #8 seed. SRV wins NCS D1 convincingly, and has to travel to play at Antelope. And the next game is vs the top seed Salesian. And that’s just the first 2 rounds. No one said D1 was going to be easy, but holy cow.
 
There are really two issues: The concept and the execution.

The concept of competitive equity makes sense to me. Just because a school has a lot of students doesn't mean it has a good basketball program. After all, you don't need many players to be a quality program.

And using competitive equity, you can separate schools of similar size that play by different rules, or to put it more politely, have different priorities.

Enrollment does not work, as my long comment upthread about Bishop O'Dowd explains. (And remember when SMS was Division III or Pinewood Division V? Now that was fair ...)

So for me, the big issue is execution. I actually have little problem with the seeding of Division I, the one I'm most familiar with, though of course if Miramonte had been an eight I might be singing a different song.

Suggestion one: Have a girls' basketball-only CIF committee to do the seeding. Active coaches cannot be on the committee because there's just too much bias, and of course someone who coached for 20 years at a school, even retired, is still going to be leaning. But if that committee focused only on girls' basketball all season, then you'd have a decent shot at getting better bracketing.

Suggestion two: Open the seeding meeting. No comments allowed, unless the committee wanted a question answered by someone in the audience. That way, coaches could see what the committee valued and how decisions were made. Obviously, there are a lot of ways to do it -- is the body of work more important than head-to-head? Depends on your point of view.

I doubt many people would make the trip to Sacramento, but the gain would be transparency and a sense that the committee was making its decisions based on publicly available data.
 
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what I have learned over the last 20 years of following is that no matter the year, no matter the system, there will be criers and complainers. And as history has shown us, if you b!tch and moan enough then the system can be changed.. squeaky wheels get the grease..

does anyone have an insight into how other states handle this? There's no way that other big states change their process this many times over 2 decades.
 
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what I have learned over the last 20 years of following is that no matter the year, no matter the system, there will be criers and complainers. And as history has shown us, if you b!tch and moan enough then the system can be changed.. squeaky wheels get the grease..

does anyone have an insight into how other states handle this? There's no way that other big states change their process this many times over 2 decades.

While I'm not happy with the seeding (and sounds like a lot of you are too), to your point, the CIF has changed it's process is a good thing in that it acknowledges (by default) that its trying to make it better. This was the first year NCS had an open and I imagine soon, SJS will follow. It'll take a couple of years (and no scorebook live in my opinion...that platform/interface just sucks) and there will be growing pains...but hopefully it's moving in the right direction.

Im not super in the know about the souther CA teams, but after looking at the brackets, they look much. better than ours with the competitive equity model...
 
There are really two issues: The concept and the execution.

The concept of competitive equity makes sense to me. Just because a school has a lot of students doesn't mean it has a good basketball program. After all, you don't need many players to be a quality program.

And using competitive equity, you can separate schools of similar size that play by different rules, or to put it more politely, have different priorities.

Enrollment does not work, as my long comment upthread about Bishop O'Dowd explains. (And remember when SMS was Division III or Pinewood Division V? Now that was fair ...)

So for me, the big issue is execution. I actually have little problem with the seeding of Division I, the one I'm most familiar with, though of course if Miramonte had been an eight I might be singing a different song.

Suggestion one: Have a girls' basketball-only CIF committee to do the seeding. Active coaches cannot be on the committee because there's just too much bias, and of course someone who coached for 20 years at a school, even retired, is still going to be leaning. But if that committee focused only on girls' basketball all season, then you'd have a decent shot at getting better bracketing.

Suggestion two: Open the seeding meeting. No comments allowed, unless the committee wanted a question answered by someone in the audience. That way, coaches could see what the committee valued and how decisions were made. Obviously, there are a lot of ways to do it -- is the body of work more important than head-to-head? Depends on your point of view.

I doubt many people would make the trip to Sacramento, but the gain would be transparency and a sense that the committee was making its decisions based on publicly available data.

Thoughtful, logical and very well-said.
 
With only 5 teams in the open is there really a need for an open division? Remove seeds 12-16 in D1 and insert seeds 1-5 from open and you have a very competitive Division 1. Leave all the sections to continue with enrollment based divisions and play it out.

Hard to take when a section champion has to go on the road as a lower seed but then again in CCS & NCS those section champions were champions by default as the better teams were moved to the open division.


Agree but Alameda beat San Leandro in late January yet SL is seeded above them? This is very hard one to take aside from a couple other teams the got shafted (Pres and CN).
 
Private meetings should not decide who wins "State Titles" at the end of the season.

If norcals are going to use the competitive equity model, then the sections need to do the same things regardless of enrollment.

The CIF needs to rename the non open "divisions" (gold, silver, bronze, etc) to properly reward the OPEN winner and make programs want to be apart of the OPEN tournament.
 
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While I'm not happy with the seeding (and sounds like a lot of you are too), to your point, the CIF has changed it's process is a good thing in that it acknowledges (by default) that its trying to make it better. This was the first year NCS had an open and I imagine soon, SJS will follow. It'll take a couple of years (and no scorebook live in my opinion...that platform/interface just sucks) and there will be growing pains...but hopefully it's moving in the right direction.
I'm not saying that change is bad and that we shouldn't strive to make it better. Like others have said, I think it could immediately be better and I think many of the gripes are legitimate this year. How many years of certain teams getting screwed over is it going to take until they get it right? Or is this just something we are ultimately going to have to learn to live with?
 
Private meetings should not decide who wins "State Titles" at the end of the season.

If norcals are going to use the competitive equity model, then the sections need to do the same things regardless of enrollment.

The CIF needs to rename the non open "divisions" (gold, silver, bronze, etc) to properly reward the OPEN winner and make programs want to be apart of the OPEN tournament.

Honestly, I spend more time in the youth soccer world than in high school basketball. I've been told that CIFs competitive equity is derived from youth soccer and their many, somewhat arbitrary, divisions. I don't know how much attention the CIF paid to that in their development of this system, but when looking at both, the comparison makes some sense. In youth soccer at a competitive/local level, one of the top prizes is the "State Cup". In Northern California, there are well over 100 teams in each age group competing for US Club Soccer's state cup in each gender. It is a multi-round tournament where the teams are re-grouped after an initial round (think section tournaments) into six different divisions...

Six Cup Divisions

State Cup, Premier Cup, Platinum Cup, Gold Cup, Silver Cup, Bronze Cup

Here's the kicker...
(copied from norcalpremier.com)


The NorCal State Cup division winner is the only team that can be promoted as “State Champions.”

I think that's what you were referring to in the paragraph I bolded.

Maybe the answer is to only have there be one "state champion" in each gender and let the rest hold some other title. Kind of like the NIT, CBI, etc. in college basketball. As it stands, with the system in place, and the historical implications of winning a state championship, it really is a farce.
 
I'm not saying that change is bad and that we shouldn't strive to make it better. Like others have said, I think it could immediately be better and I think many of the gripes are legitimate this year. How many years of certain teams getting screwed over is it going to take until they get it right? Or is this just something we are ultimately going to have to learn to live with?

I hope sooner than later but with any bureaucracy, it takes time. you know, when some coaches proposed an open division, NCS turned it down the first year...second year it passed. If you have time, write the NCS commish and layout a plan....im sure if it's good, they'd listen.
 
if you just used maxpreps rankings there would be better games than what CIF came up with.

Open would be
1 Mitty vs 8 SRV
2 SMS v 7 Antelope
3 Clovis West v 6 St. Joe's
4 Salesian v 5. Pinewood

I would replace Cardinal Newman with St. Joe's though and put CN at a 8 seed in D1
I would switch D3 #5 San Joaquin Memorial with D2 #11 Presentation
I would switch D1 #14 Alameda with D3 #13 Oakland Tech
I would switch D1 #13 SM Berkeley with D2 #8 Heritage


D1
1 Oakridge v 16 Folsom
2 Clovis North v 15 Del Oro
3 Miramonte v 14 Oakland Tech
4 BOD v 13 Heritage
5 McClatchy v 12 Menlo
6 Laguna Creek v 11 San Joaquin Memorial
7 Clovis v 10 Christian Brothers
8 Cardinal Newman v 9 American

D2
1 Franklin v 16 Carondelet
2 Granite Bay v 15 Mission SJ
3 St. Ignatius v 14 Redwood
4 Lick Wilmerding v 13 Montgomery
5 Presentation v 12 Woodcreek
6 Cal High v 11 Aptos
7 Placer v 10 Buchanan
8 SM Berkeley v 9 Valley Christian

I won't do D3 and D4 and D5, but those are some great games right there!! Even though some of these teams didn't make Norcal. I think it would be a toss up who would win D1 and D2 with these teams and whoever did would have earned a norcal title.
Even better.........go Dbl Elimination!!!! hahaha!
 
The NorCal State Cup division winner is the only team that can be promoted as “State Champions.”

I think that's what you were referring to in the paragraph I bolded.

Exactly. Until programs are fighting to get into the open the system is flawed.
 
As I do the national rankings for MaxPreps, I deal with a lot of state tournaments, and they vary wildly in format and execution -- and I can safely say that all of them draw criticism from coaches and fans for their inequities.

California is the most progressive state, and it's clear competitive equity is definitely the way to go. In West Virginia, for example, nationally ranked St. Joseph Central is in the lowest category -- and will romp through the playoffs.

In Minnesota, the early rounds are done strictly by geography, so the two best teams will play in what is essentially the round of 16.

In Ohio or Illinois (can't remember which), the top seeds literally get to pick their opponent and whether they get a first-round bye or not.

In Kentucky, all schools are in one bracket.

In many states, teams are slotted into pre-set brackets by their finish in leagues or regions. In Texas, for example, the No. 5 and No. 6 teams in the nation played in the third round, while the unbeaten team on the other side of the bracket has a much easier, pre-determined, road.

In a very few states, publics and privates are split, but the result is that the powerhouse privates coast in their state tournament, and the public champion is never considered a true state champion.

In New Jersey, there are four state "champions" who then play in Tournament of Champions.

In New York, there is Federation championship that is so goofy it defies description. One team, Long Island Lutheran, automatically qualified for the semifinals while other teams have to go through a playoff bracket to get there.

In Washington, neither of the best two teams are in the top enrollment division.

I could go on, but I think you get the point ...
 
if you just used maxpreps rankings there would be better games than what CIF came up with.

Open would be
1 Mitty vs 8 SRV
2 SMS v 7 Antelope
3 Clovis West v 6 St. Joe's
4 Salesian v 5. Pinewood

I would replace Cardinal Newman with St. Joe's though and put CN at a 8 seed in D1
I would switch D3 #5 San Joaquin Memorial with D2 #11 Presentation
I would switch D1 #14 Alameda with D3 #13 Oakland Tech
I would switch D1 #13 SM Berkeley with D2 #8 Heritage


D1
1 Oakridge v 16 Folsom
2 Clovis North v 15 Del Oro
3 Miramonte v 14 Oakland Tech
4 BOD v 13 Heritage
5 McClatchy v 12 Menlo
6 Laguna Creek v 11 San Joaquin Memorial
7 Clovis v 10 Christian Brothers
8 Cardinal Newman v 9 American

D2
1 Franklin v 16 Carondelet
2 Granite Bay v 15 Mission SJ
3 St. Ignatius v 14 Redwood
4 Lick Wilmerding v 13 Montgomery
5 Presentation v 12 Woodcreek
6 Cal High v 11 Aptos
7 Placer v 10 Buchanan
8 SM Berkeley v 9 Valley Christian

I won't do D3 and D4 and D5, but those are some great games right there!! Even though some of these teams didn't make Norcal. I think it would be a toss up who would win D1 and D2 with these teams and whoever did would have earned a norcal title.
Even better.........go Dbl Elimination!!!! hahaha!
Those brackets especially in the open just seem more fair than what this private committee came up with. Can someone justify to me how St Joes ranked #51 and clovis west #16 by maxpreps can be ahead of SMS. This committee is a joke . The politics here is insane.
 
The assumption there is that the MaxPreps' rankings, which are a version of RPI, are an accurate reflection of teams' on-the-court performance. SMS does not play in a league and plays a very difficult schedule; SJND was forced to play 10 games against very bad teams -- so any RPI-based formula will underestimate SJND and overestimate SMS.

There are arcane discussions of why RPI is a limited and potentially severely inaccurate system, though generally it's OK, if you want to find them. That's why the NCAA changed to the NET system.

Supposedly Scorebook Live was going to allow each section to create its own rating formula, but of course that didn't happen, so MaxPreps -- which I will say is accurate probably 90% of the time -- remains the standard.
 
Those brackets especially in the open just seem more fair than what this private committee came up with. Can someone justify to me how St Joes ranked #51 and clovis west #16 by maxpreps can be ahead of SMS. This committee is a joke . The politics here is insane.

Well, what does #52 and #16 mean? Where did they come from? Are they CIF rankings? If not then they mean nothing. Don’t recall CIF saying they’d be using any published rankings.
 
Sjnd beat Salesian, ODowd, CN, and Heritage this year. Some argued NCS had the toughest section. That’s why they got the #2 seed. The only team that has a valid gripe is SMS. Fresno teams definitely have a gripe.
 
How about D3? Can anyone explain how Merced, with a 6.5 SOS per MaxPreps, gets bumped to D2 after losing the Section final by 17? Meanwhile Placer, 10.9 SOS, stays in D3, with a 3-seed no less, after losing to Merced at home in the D3 semis. And don't get me started on Christian Brothers -- but I will. Three D3 Section titles in five consecutive final appearances, and a current 16.8 SOS. Yet they get a 9 seed in D2! I get the bump to D2, but someone please explain the seeding logic. Someone? Anyone? Bueller?
it's not about Merced 6.5 it's about the top teams having a better chance at winning a State title at every level.
 
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Sjnd beat Salesian, ODowd, CN, and Heritage this year. Some argued NCS had the toughest section. That’s why they got the #2 seed. The only team that has a valid gripe is SMS. Fresno teams definitely have a gripe.
SMS beat centennial Las Vegas by 11, st joes lost to centennial by 12. St joes got crushed by Mitty twice , crushed by Windward, crushed by LJCD. SMS lost to Mater Dei in last 10 seconds of the game. SMS beat Rosery by 21, CW lost to Rosary. SMS is ranked # 5 in the state , CW #8, St joes NOT in top #25. It was a masterful job of politics and screwing the SMS girls of at least getting possible chance of playing Mitty on a neutral court.
 
SMS beat centennial Las Vegas by 11, st joes lost to centennial by 12. St joes got crushed by Mitty twice , crushed by Windward, crushed by LJCD. SMS lost to Mater Dei in last 10 seconds of the game. SMS beat Rosery by 21, CW lost to Rosary. SMS is ranked # 5 in the state , CW #8, St joes NOT in top #25. It was a masterful job of politics and screwing the SMS girls of at least getting possible chance of playing Mitty on a neutral court.
Politics in the seedings? No Way!!! LOL.
These are good points dad. In the case of SJND, they won the first NCS Open and beat BOD along the way (who SMS lost to). Maybe a sign to SJS to create Open Division next season. In the case of CW, you are right, the common opponent of Rosary should have been taken into consideration. maybe they looked at the loss to Clovis North. But in reality, I'll bet CW was rewarded with higher seed so they wouldn't have to travel mid-week. Maybe threw them a bone for moving them to North (a big bone!). It is tough draw for SMS, but I guess time to put up or shut up. Get it done on the court against a very good Cardinal Newman team. Good luck tomorrow night!
 
I’m not disputing SMS has an argument to be ahead of SJND. But I’m sure they got taxed for having a weaker Section. There are a million scenarios where someone beat someone and a point spread against another team isn’t the same. I think they got the order wrong but they have the right teams in place.
 
Thanks!!!! apparently their filters don't work.. california - girls - basketball.... and it didnt show up...

The App sucks. I filter on my web browser, find the game I want to watch then search in the app by school to watch it. The app filters are worthless.
 
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For reals? Antelope plays AAU ball...1-4 low, guard plays 1v1. back down again, 1-4 low, another guard tried to go 1v1? Antelope looks athletic AF and sitting back in a zone...smdh
 
Who were all the people talking about how good Antelope is? I see a absolutely overrated team.
 
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