Brackets!!
- Thread starter kiddman32
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How is the NCS Champion SRV only a 9 seed and required to drive 2+ hours to play Antelope? I thought MaxPreps ranking played a role in seeding and SRV is ranked higher than many others.
5 team OPEN ??? Not 4 ? Or 8? Why 5?
Who does that?
Clovis West got the sweetheart draw of all time...bye in 1st rd and avoids the blood bath of the south
Who does that?
Clovis West got the sweetheart draw of all time...bye in 1st rd and avoids the blood bath of the south
The Open makes 0 sense. 1 opening game and 3 byes. Why would the Northern and Southern brackets be different.
This is what happens when you let section commissioners make decision that they have NO clue what they're talking about. Antelope AND SRV being 8-9 seeds is embarrassing. SRV won NCS D1 and now is an 8 seed? Antelope won d2 and now is a D1 8 seed? Why not leave them in D2 as a high seed.
Move down
SI
Menlo
Antelope (if they truly think they're an 8 seed-mind boggling)
D2
Same thing! Presentation and Alameda get hosed by winning their section but have to travel.
Move up
San Leandro-lost in the section D1 finals.
American-
Lynbrook was an open team...why did they not get any respect at 12?
Move down
SI
Menlo
Antelope (if they truly think they're an 8 seed-mind boggling)
D2
Same thing! Presentation and Alameda get hosed by winning their section but have to travel.
Move up
San Leandro-lost in the section D1 finals.
American-
Lynbrook was an open team...why did they not get any respect at 12?
agree...a 5 team open makes no sense...but then again..have you looked at the other brackets???
Oakland Tech D2??? but all those open quality teams in D1 don’t get it.
Alameda gets a horrible seed.
SI D1 how?
There should be a different way to seed.
Alameda gets a horrible seed.
SI D1 how?
There should be a different way to seed.
Antelope went from an open teaam to an 8 seed? Jeez
Antelope drop all the way to 8? Lower than Oak Ridge? That doesn’t make sense at all. Maybe this is committee telling SJS to establish Open Division! SRV playing very well right now, and they get draw of traveling to Antelope? Both these teams did everything they are supposed to and a good team capable of making good run will not be moving on after Tuesday.
Apparently h2h doesnt count anymore..
Clovis North who beat BOTH Odowd and CN gets seeded behind both of them.
Clovis North who beat BOTH Odowd and CN gets seeded behind both of them.
Alameda did get hosed...won NCS D2 and gets to travel to atherton? Presentation won CCS and also gets low seed. The one that gets met the most is SRV and Antelope being 9-8 and Tech being D2. I swear i think they pull names out of a hat...SI lost to Tech and got seeded ahead of them???
Far more strong programs in the South. North wants to protect as many good teams as it can in the lower divisions. It's a numbers game when you look at both halves of the state.
The way the brackets are done doesn’t work, so there are bound to be some head scratchers.
I don’t like 5 teams in Open. Feels like playing the games on paper instead of letting it play out on the floor.
Also, I think CN has had a questionable draw every year since they won the D4 title.
Antelope-SRV is probably the game of the night on Tuesday. I don’t know of any ranking that had Oak Ridge over Antelope.
I don’t like 5 teams in Open. Feels like playing the games on paper instead of letting it play out on the floor.
Also, I think CN has had a questionable draw every year since they won the D4 title.
Antelope-SRV is probably the game of the night on Tuesday. I don’t know of any ranking that had Oak Ridge over Antelope.
It seems that something I heard may be true: That the only teams that go in the Open are teams the committee believes can win the state Open title.
It's really the only thing that makes sense.
Cardinal Newman once again appears to have gotten hosed.
It's really the only thing that makes sense.
Cardinal Newman once again appears to have gotten hosed.
Another questionable seeding is the "At-large invite" in D1 with #13 seed Folsom playing at #4 Miramonte. Folsom was NOT a semi-finalist in the SJS sections. Folsom lost to McClatchy in the quarter-finals. This was purely an At-large invite probably due to the very strong strength of schedule of the Sierra Foothill League.
All I know is there are probably a lot of coaches who don't feel like playing in the Norcal tournament after these brackets came out. It is the 2nd year in a row that the seeding and placement of teams makes very little sense. Zero benefit to being a section champion and also zero benefit to any head to head or common opponent wins/losses.
The CIF North should have a committee of knowledgable coaches selected by the commissioners to seed the tournament. Send 2 coaches from each section and get the seeds right. It took all day to make those brackets?!?!?!
The CIF North should have a committee of knowledgable coaches selected by the commissioners to seed the tournament. Send 2 coaches from each section and get the seeds right. It took all day to make those brackets?!?!?!
It seems that non open section championships are NOT valued at all. Why not have the open four teams? You are being punitive to both the #4 and #5 seeds.
yes you are correct what is the point. All are small schools. Do you want them in d-1? That is the point of DV. Most are rural small towns.
Why do I feel that teams that under performed in Section play were rewarded in NorCal?
It's been that way since this all started. Depends on how you look at it. Is dropping to a lower division and getting a home game rather than being on the road in D1 a "reward" ? Laguna creek is a prime example of this. Set up nicely for a state title now all for under performing in section play so they didn't wind up being a high D1 seed on the road @ salesian. This is just my opinion but I think Norcals should be just like NCS open, or the CCS open. Place a premium on the open title winner and seed the remaining brackets based on enrollment.
My point is that maybe an actual DV team would like a high seed and a chance to win a state championship rather than rewarding a mediocre Northern Section school with almost 1,000 students with the #1 seed in DV girls. West Valley should be a mid/low seed in DIV, where they really belong, based on enrollment. Really, I just hate most everything about competitive equity.
Or, how about the fact that El Dorado girls won a section championship and get rewarded by getting a 12 seed in DIV, while the Calaveras team they beat gets to stay home as a 5 seed in DV?
I think most would agree that the ultimate goal is to win a state championship. Beyond Open, does it really matter what division you win? The fact is, the better team often gets punished by getting bumped up and facing a much tougher road. If you're going to insist on trying to make this all "fair" at least assign the teams to divisions before the season, based on historical performance, so it's not a moving target. The fact that the line of demarcation between a #16 seed in DIII and the #1 seed in DIV is completely arbitrary is asinine.
I think most would agree that the ultimate goal is to win a state championship. Beyond Open, does it really matter what division you win? The fact is, the better team often gets punished by getting bumped up and facing a much tougher road. If you're going to insist on trying to make this all "fair" at least assign the teams to divisions before the season, based on historical performance, so it's not a moving target. The fact that the line of demarcation between a #16 seed in DIII and the #1 seed in DIV is completely arbitrary is asinine.
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I would just like to point this BULLSH** fact out....
OF THE TOP 13 TEAMS IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA...(according to the seeds)
ONLY 1 TEAM IS ON THE ROAD FOR THE 1ST ROUND....
CARDINAL NEWMAN
AND THAT TEAM (CARDINAL NEWMAN) HAS A ZERO% CHANCE OF HOSTING A GAME IN THE NORCALS
LET ME REPEAT THAT....A ZERO % CHANCE OF A HOME GAME...CANT HAPPEN
OF THE TOP 13 TEAMS IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA...(according to the seeds)
ONLY 1 TEAM IS ON THE ROAD FOR THE 1ST ROUND....
CARDINAL NEWMAN
AND THAT TEAM (CARDINAL NEWMAN) HAS A ZERO% CHANCE OF HOSTING A GAME IN THE NORCALS
LET ME REPEAT THAT....A ZERO % CHANCE OF A HOME GAME...CANT HAPPEN
This is Cardinal Newmans 3rd trip to the OPEN in 4 yrs...
7th seed (out of 8)
7th seed (out of 8)
5th seed (out of 5)
Never once a home game....
I'm not saying CN didnt deserve to be OPEN those years...but how about rewarding them with a home game once..just once!....throw them a bone
7th seed (out of 8)
7th seed (out of 8)
5th seed (out of 5)
Never once a home game....
I'm not saying CN didnt deserve to be OPEN those years...but how about rewarding them with a home game once..just once!....throw them a bone
Then make them the top seed in D1 and have Open a four-team bracket. When you have three of five teams getting a bye Open is basically just a four-team bracket with a play-in game.
Or with so few games they could have played the Open play-in game on the first day and have the loser drop down as the top seed to D1 for the second round since it has a first-round bye.
I mean who are these people on the committee. They seem to lack both knowledge and common sense. That is a bad combination to be devoid of.
I thought Oak Ridge over Antelope was crazy too, as you said in "NO RANKINGS" was OR over Antelope so Why. Antelope went from perhaps an 8th seed in the open to an 8th seed Div. 1 which translates to 13th seed over all. I do not think there are 13 teams better then Antelope.
So is it body of work? Or section performance? Is it enrollment? Or performance on the court? Is it a computer rating? Or the eye test?
No way to balance all this out, but when I was at Campolindo in D-3 we lost to Bishop O'Dowd every year. Bishop O'Dowd has merit scholarships and never had fewer than three Division I players on the floor. When we lost to them in overtime in the NCS finals, they had four Power 5 recruits 6-2 or taller, plus a 5-4 point guard who went to San Diego State. Plus two more Division I players on the bench.
So how is competitive equity more unfair than that?
Of course, it doesn't matter what you do, the seeds are going to be controversial -- still, isn't it about time to give Cardinal Newman a break? They get hammered every year.
One last point: The last seed in any bracket is always, and justifiably, going to feel they got hosed; the top two or three seeds in any bracket know they got lucky. But someone has to be seed 15, and someone has to be seed 2. It's just luck, and sometimes luck isn't good.
No way to balance all this out, but when I was at Campolindo in D-3 we lost to Bishop O'Dowd every year. Bishop O'Dowd has merit scholarships and never had fewer than three Division I players on the floor. When we lost to them in overtime in the NCS finals, they had four Power 5 recruits 6-2 or taller, plus a 5-4 point guard who went to San Diego State. Plus two more Division I players on the bench.
So how is competitive equity more unfair than that?
Of course, it doesn't matter what you do, the seeds are going to be controversial -- still, isn't it about time to give Cardinal Newman a break? They get hammered every year.
One last point: The last seed in any bracket is always, and justifiably, going to feel they got hosed; the top two or three seeds in any bracket know they got lucky. But someone has to be seed 15, and someone has to be seed 2. It's just luck, and sometimes luck isn't good.
My feeling is it should be enrollment based but then move certain teams up based on their long standing success ( O’Dowd, Pinewood, Cardinal Newman to name a few). Move another teams down based on size as needed.
This way, you don’t have the same teams winning the lower levels but you have some uniformity year to year.
But I do agree Clay that any system comes with its pros and cons
This way, you don’t have the same teams winning the lower levels but you have some uniformity year to year.
But I do agree Clay that any system comes with its pros and cons
you can never please everyone, of course. But, i do think that section champs should at least get a home game in the first round unless they have to play a higher seeded section champ. Granted that there are lots of sections, but in a 16 team bracket, it should be doable.
I agree with West Valley should be bottom seed in D-4 and if they would have not made such a crazy 5 team bracket and gone to 6 than west valley falls where they belong. But all the other schools are where they belong. I have checked last year and while I could be wrong (bay area section,and open touneys make thing strange) but all section winners were rewarded with a home game. Not sure about this year. I think it was a little better two years ago, but the North lost most state games. It seems now they are plugging in teams that have a good chance of winning state (Clay kind of mentioned that about the open) In the end it almost seems like losing games benefits you in the end. I really feel bad for Cardinal Newman and the Antelope / San Ramon Valley seems like it could have been a championship game.
You are right on. Seems to me Private vs Public just doesn't mix. Find a good way to separate them. But we all know that is not going to happen.
State Championships should be enrollment based. The only exception should be that any team could elect to go to a higher division or to Open, provided that an irrevocable election is submitted by December 1.
Right now there are no division championships because there are no divisions. There are just clumsy assignments of teams to tournament brackets called divisions.
So College Prep is now in the same category as Bishop O'Dowd? And you can't do enrollment in the privates because you'd have maybe four teams in the top division.
The private playoffs would be the same as St. Joseph Notre Dame marching through the BCL-East. There would be no point.
Most private schools -- in fact, the vast majority -- are just like public schools in terms of their level of play and commitment to athletics. The few who recruit (and no blame from me) are the ones we're talking about, and that's what competitive equity is for.
How about this? Take every team that qualifies in a section, and rank them 1 through 120 (or whatever). That's what NorCals does, and essentially that's what each section does because it winds up seeding every team. Instead of artificially separating teams by essentially enrollment-based divisions, just throw them all in the same pool and sort by on-court performance from that season.
The private playoffs would be the same as St. Joseph Notre Dame marching through the BCL-East. There would be no point.
Most private schools -- in fact, the vast majority -- are just like public schools in terms of their level of play and commitment to athletics. The few who recruit (and no blame from me) are the ones we're talking about, and that's what competitive equity is for.
How about this? Take every team that qualifies in a section, and rank them 1 through 120 (or whatever). That's what NorCals does, and essentially that's what each section does because it winds up seeding every team. Instead of artificially separating teams by essentially enrollment-based divisions, just throw them all in the same pool and sort by on-court performance from that season.
Honestly, the best thing would be to end it all after section championships and let the kids get on with their Spring sports or AAU. Failing that, my system would solve your problem, at least for the most part. The loaded teams would move themselves up or risk losing both reputation and future recruits.
Not to belabor this, but if you moved West Valley out and moved everyone up a seed, you end up with a school like University Prep as the 3 seed in DV. They are a DIV school that just lost the section championship game to West Valley. Should you reward them with a much more favorable path to a state championship than West Valley would have as the 16 seed in DIV?
Look, I'm a Northern Section guy, I'm rooting for these teams, but it just doesn't seem right to me.
I really wish they would go back to enrollment based. If you make a NorCal final, you automatically get bumped up a division for the next season. You can't move back down a division unless you go a year without making NorCals. That is overly simplistic, but something along those lines. The DIII and DIV private schools that are true powers would quickly get bumped where the belong and the little schools that stumble into once a generation talent won't have to worry if someone thinks they're so good they should be bumped up to the #15 seed in a higher division.
Just my 2 cents.
Couldn’t say it better. We’re so happy to be a number 1 seed in D4 but we get moved up to play a 16 seed Lowell from SF that is a D1 school with 2700 students? Colfax has 580 students and this is a once a generation team that now has to play a D1 school who has a mediocre year so they get bumped down to D4? I don’t get it
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