Carondelet Update

[ClayK]

We all have to make our own choices. I've always felt it's my obligation to my employers, my players and the community created around a team to have the best program possible. Part of having the best program possible -- not all of it, by any means -- is having good players. Good players make the game more fun to coach, more fun to play, more fun to watch, and more interesting to the student body and school community.

It's possible, though very unlikely, to build a quality program at a smaller or public school without some serious effort to attract good players, but in general, a quality program is built over years of effort, often by one or more coaches. It's about hard work, not "juice" -- the juice comes after the hard work.

 

[colhenrylives]

"They" aren't sacrificing any principles. I was referring to myself and only myself. I personally have an image of what I want out of coaching High School girls basketball. I have no issues with girls going wherever they want. There is something authentic to me about winning or losing with girls that are underdogs growing up that aren't choosing between Odowd, CLET, Salesian, etc by the 6th grade. I embrace the public school grind. Always will. Thats my passion. I was just voicing my opinion about the direction I feel the sport is going. Nothing but respect to to the elite programs and coaches.

Certainly. But, being honest, we are talking about two entirely different worlds here: The publics (which labor under severe limitations) vs. the private/parochials (which don't).

 

[becoolpt55]

Juice....many ways to get it...
Rich fans who donate big bucks at fundraisers
Coaches with personal relationships with officials
Administration that helps create financial packages
Overrated coaches who are above average
Marketing campaigns based on big time selling
Ex star players who are social magnets
Basically programs that work like a capitalistic enterprise or a cartel
Programs based on destroying the competition
Programs that study Branding and have the resources to create a Brand
OK back to the CBD

 

[ClayK]

How about hard work?

 

[becoolpt55]

People that have the juice would like to think that is how they got it

 

[ClayK]

And people who don't have it like to believe in conspiracies.

 

[GBBall4L]

There is a lot of hard work that goes into having a winning program whether at the public level or private level. First off commitment from the coach is one. If your daughter is serious about basketball then naturally you are going to try to send her to one of the top programs. She can still be serious about it and not want to go private but you will still want to send her to a top Public program. You are going to want a coach that is dedicated enough to run an AAU program. Public schools do it also and American High School in fremont is one. If it were that easy all private schools would be dominate. I don't see anyone complaining about the public schools that do the same thing and that is because it doesn't fit your narratives. You haters are worse than politics.

 

[colhenrylives]

There are about 150 girls' basketball programs in the Central Coast Section. Year after year, the list of top 20 girls' teams is utterly dominated by the private/parochials from two leagues, the WCAL and the WBAL Since the CIF instituted state hoops championships for girls, CCS private/parochials have captured 30 titles. The publics have one. One ray of hope, however: The new equity-based CIF playoff system (an obvious nod to the reality of the vast difference between the two athletic systems) may produce a second girls' public state crown for a CCS team at some point. But it's been 32 (soon to be 33) years since the first (and only) one was produced by Burlingame in 1988. A CCS public has not gotten to a state final since. The close of the 1980s and the decade of the 1990s also saw the distinct rise of the private/parochials. Some of the key factors that altered the landscape included:

St. Ignatius and Sacred Heart both going coed.
The arrival of Brian Harrigan as head coach at the new SHC.
The arrival of Kate Paye (and her coaching brother, John Paye) at Menlo (three straight state titles was the immediate result).
The surge of college-level talent heading for neighboring Sacred Heart Prep.
The arrival of Mike Ciardella as head coach at SHP (a record 80-game winning streak soon ensued)..
The arrival of Sue Phillips as head coach at Mitty (we all know the results).
The arrival of Doc Sheppler as head coach at Pinewood (we all know the results there too)..
The eventual creation of a girls' division in the WCAL
The eventual addition of Valley Christian to the WCAL (in 2002).
The expansion of the WBAL fueled, in part, by schools from the old GPSL.

Those are just some of the key changes that helped to tilt the balance in the section. AAU programs operated by private/parochial coaches who did not, and do not, have to worry about geographic boundaries when it comes to attracting young talent to their schools, along with administrative support at their schools, surely helped a lot too. These programs can re-load yearly. Public schools, due to their strict boundary rules, cannot. Public schools in open enrollment districts are still limited by their district boundaries. So are charter schools. The WCAL and WBAL programs are not. One prime example: The Mitty program is filled with youngsters from all over the South Bay and into the East Bay and over the hill onto the coast. It's an all-star affair that vacuums up outstanding talent from far and wide. The Mitty syndrome is so overwhelming (let's call it the Mater Dei of the North) that even some private/parochial coaches are less than thrilled. So how can the publics, especially the ones that take this stuff seriously, hope to retain promising players who live in their districts? Good luck with that.

 

[becoolpt55]

And people who don't have it like to believe in conspiracies.

Oh trust me I understand it takes hard
Work...but many people are participating
In that list of juice producing... lots of work by many people... and yes some of them work in the shadows...and play at the golf clubs

 

[GBBall4L]

There are about 150 girls' basketball programs in the Central Coast Section. Year after year, the list of top 20 girls' teams is utterly dominated by the private/parochials from two leagues, the WCAL and the WBAL Since the CIF instituted state hoops championships for girls, CCS private/parochials have captured 30 titles. The publics have one. One ray of hope, however: The new equity-based CIF playoff system (an obvious nod to the reality of the vast difference between the two athletic systems) may produce a second girls' public state crown for a CCS team at some point. But it's been 32 (soon to be 33) years since the first (and only) one was produced by Burlingame in 1988. A CCS public has not gotten to a state final since. The close of the 1980s and the decade of the 1990s also saw the distinct rise of the private/parochials. Some of the key factors that altered the landscape included:

St. Ignatius and Sacred Heart both going coed.
The arrival of Brian Harrigan as head coach at the new SHC.
The arrival of Kate Paye (and her coaching brother, John Paye) at Menlo (three straight state titles was the immediate result).
The surge of college-level talent heading for neighboring Sacred Heart Prep.
The arrival of Mike Ciardella as head coach at SHP (a record 80-game winning streak soon ensued)..
The arrival of Sue Phillips as head coach at Mitty (we all know the results).
The arrival of Doc Sheppler as head coach at Pinewood (we all know the results there too)..
The eventual creation of a girls' division in the WCAL
The eventual addition of Valley Christian to the WCAL (in 2002).
The expansion of the WBAL fueled, in part, by schools from the old GPSL.

Those are just some of the key changes that helped to tilt the balance in the section. AAU programs operated by private/parochial coaches who did not, and do not, have to worry about geographic boundaries when it comes to attracting young talent to their schools, along with administrative support at their schools, surely helped a lot too. These programs can re-load yearly. Public schools, due to their strict boundary rules, cannot. Public schools in open enrollment districts are still limited by their district boundaries. So are charter schools. The WCAL and WBAL programs are not. One prime example: The Mitty program is filled with youngsters from all over the South Bay and into the East Bay and over the hill onto the coast. It's an all-star affair that vacuums up outstanding talent from far and wide. The Mitty syndrome is so overwhelming (let's call it the Mater Dei of the North) that even some private/parochial coaches are less than thrilled. So how can the publics, especially the ones that take this stuff seriously, hope to retain promising players who live in their districts? Good luck with that.

I don't think anyone is saying we expect a public school in NorCal to compete with the top private schools. But what I am saying is that with competitive equity and coaches in the public schools that have their own AAU clubs or are involved in AAU club, you get some pretty strong public programs. American, Lynbrook, California(not sure they have a club but alot of their girls played Cal Stars), Los Gatos, Oakland Tech, Oakland, Heritage, Antelope, McClatchy, Miramonte, and the list goes on. Forgive me if I left teams out or mistook them as private but my point is that their are plenty of strong public Schools. One of the best in the Nation for Girls Basketball year in and year out is Clovis West High School.

 

[ClayK]

One of the best things about the Open Division in each section, and in NorCals, is that it tends to skim off the top private schools -- who do have a significant advantage -- and leave the other divisions to strong public programs.

So if I were back coaching at a large public school with a chance to be pretty good, I wouldn't really worry too much about the privates. Sure, they'll get the elite players, but I have a good program, I should be able to keep enough good players around as a foundation. And then I have to work on making sure I get good athletes in my school to play basketball (rather than soccer or softball, say) and do all I can to keep the local middle school programs as healthy as possible.

If I can make that happen, every few years I should have enough talent to make a run at a league title, have a nice postseason and get to NorCals and maybe win a game or two.

Here's the important thing that so many people miss, I think: That's success. Let me repeat -- winning a game in NorCals is success, and is a great accomplishment. So you don't win a state title; not many teams do. So you lose in the NorCal semis; you got there, and you've achieved something.

People get caught up in titles, but from the inside of a program, they are much less important than you might think. Did the girls have a good time? Did they feel they came close to their potential, individually and collectively? Did they play well in postseason against tough competition?

Answer "yes" to all of those and the postseason banquet is a very happy one -- even if Mitty played for the state title the night before.

 

[LBJ6]

One of the best things about the Open Division in each section, and in NorCals, is that it tends to skim off the top private schools -- who do have a significant advantage -- and leave the other divisions to strong public programs.

So if I were back coaching at a large public school with a chance to be pretty good, I wouldn't really worry too much about the privates. Sure, they'll get the elite players, but I have a good program, I should be able to keep enough good players around as a foundation. And then I have to work on making sure I get good athletes in my school to play basketball (rather than soccer or softball, say) and do all I can to keep the local middle school programs as healthy as possible.

If I can make that happen, every few years I should have enough talent to make a run at a league title, have a nice postseason and get to NorCals and maybe win a game or two.

Here's the important thing that so many people miss, I think: That's success. Let me repeat -- winning a game in NorCals is success, and is a great accomplishment. So you don't win a state title; not many teams do. So you lose in the NorCal semis; you got there, and you've achieved something.

People get caught up in titles, but from the inside of a program, they are much less important than you might think. Did the girls have a good time? Did they feel they came close to their potential, individually and collectively? Did they play well in postseason against tough competition?

Answer "yes" to all of those and the postseason banquet is a very happy one -- even if Mitty played for the state title the night before.

All very very good points here. Agree 100 %

 

[colhenrylives]

One of the best things about the Open Division in each section, and in NorCals, is that it tends to skim off the top private schools -- who do have a significant advantage -- and leave the other divisions to strong public programs.

So if I were back coaching at a large public school with a chance to be pretty good, I wouldn't really worry too much about the privates. Sure, they'll get the elite players, but I have a good program, I should be able to keep enough good players around as a foundation. And then I have to work on making sure I get good athletes in my school to play basketball (rather than soccer or softball, say) and do all I can to keep the local middle school programs as healthy as possible.

If I can make that happen, every few years I should have enough talent to make a run at a league title, have a nice postseason and get to NorCals and maybe win a game or two.

Here's the important thing that so many people miss, I think: That's success. Let me repeat -- winning a game in NorCals is success, and is a great accomplishment. So you don't win a state title; not many teams do. So you lose in the NorCal semis; you got there, and you've achieved something.

People get caught up in titles, but from the inside of a program, they are much less important than you might think. Did the girls have a good time? Did they feel they came close to their potential, individually and collectively? Did they play well in postseason against tough competition?

Answer "yes" to all of those and the postseason banquet is a very happy one -- even if Mitty played for the state title the night before.

Agree on all points. CIF finally realized that the inequities inherent in the private/parochial vs. public dichotomy were too great to continue with its old system. The Open Division and other equity-based lower divisions have gone a long way toward evening out the competition. Some believe that the setup has watered down competition to the point where the bottom brackets are almost meaningless. But Clay's observations place a valid emphasis on the teen learning experience. There is a lot to be said for that. What are high schools for in the first place? Clay answers that question well and succinctly. Thank you.

 

[Chsmatt33]

Has anybody heard anything about the status of the Miramonte coaching job opening?

 

[ClayK]

Last I heard, they hadn't started interviewing, but that was second-hand information. I wish they'd get it done, and hopefully Vince Wirthman, the JV coach, gets the job.

 

[fan1gbball]

While I think that recruiting is cheating, im almost to the point of who really cares!? Mitty, SMS, C-Let, BOD, Salesian, St. Joes and while I think the world of Doc, will throw PW in there too, recruit at some level and are obviously on another playing field than other schools. let them be "the pinnacle" of girls basketball.. it's a handful of schools at the top. Was it Bear Bryant who once said if you're not cheating, you're not trying....?

So what if Sopak recruits his kids from Cal-Stars? A Cheater doesn't care what other people think...and neither should he (no matter what you think of him). I'm telling you, if I had a daughter going into high school and I lived in the East Bay, I'd probably pick C-L:et. Not because he's a great coach, but dude is connected...and probably does a little better job than the other east bay parochial in terms of teaching the game.

Why do WE allow this kind of stuff to happen? Where is the CIF? Why does this behavior not get investigated? What are we teaching our young high schoolers? As long as you are winning, cheating is irrelevant, the rules don't apply....

So Disappointed in the lack of morals on this one!

 

[ankleassassin]

Why do WE allow this kind of stuff to happen? Where is the CIF? Why does this behavior not get investigated? What are we teaching our young high schoolers? As long as you are winning, cheating is irrelevant, the rules don't apply....

So Disappointed in the lack of morals on this one!

it gets worse in college. so they are just getting ready. plus they are not cheating. no boundries for private schools.

 

[becoolpt55]

So if your a coach, at a “cheating” school, who chooses to “tank”... or you just lose... in the(semi final) sectional round....should you be allowed to jump back into the state(non Open) divisional championships???? I say no...you made a choice... to be a “cheat”...this is where the CIF could help out...the CIF knows who is doing stuff

 

[colhenrylives]

Some of the best prep coaching happens off the radar. Professional teacher-coaches, some of them tenured and full-time at their schools (mainly public), provide outstanding guidance, tutelage and preparation for competitive girls' basketball, regardless of overall talent level. So, by definition, wins do not define what they do during a typical season. That's hard for some folks to fathom. It's understandable. We judge coaches, for the most part, on W's. But there's a whole lot more to coaching/teaching teens than a final score.

 

[GBBall4L]

How exactly are they cheating? I'm not saying there is no validity to what's being said here but I'm just curious. It's like Conferences in college, some are far stronger than others due to resources. I wouldn't think Coach Sopak recruits, I think kids want to play for him

 

[colhenrylives]

Right across the street, the De La Salle football program may be the private/parochial model. Does DLS recruit? Or does it attract great talent because of its record, results, history and overall program? At this point in time, it's probably the latter.

 

[ClayK]

My question would be: Why is encouraging talented players to attend a particular school "immoral"? Yes, it's technically illegal, but so is driving over the speed limit -- but does that by itself make it immoral?

Certainly a case could be made that families should be able to pursue the dream of a full scholarship ($250,000 or so) or partial financial aid as best they see fit -- and why should CIF or anyone limit a family's chance to offset the cost of college?

Which leads to the next question: Who should benefit most from the existence of high school sports? The child? Or some outside goal, such as "competitive equity"?

 

[Norcal_Fan]

How exactly are they cheating? I'm not saying there is no validity to what's being said here but I'm just curious. It's like Conferences in college, some are far stronger than others due to resources. I wouldn't think Coach Sopak recruits, I think kids want to play for him

I think it's a combo of a few things. Kelly has arguably the "best" AAU program in Northern California and he's seen as a very popular coach both at the AAU and college coaching level. Kids have to tryout for Cal-Stars and they do because of the connections he brings to the table. So in that regard, he doesn't have to recruit. I think at Carondelet, he'll have the benefit of having a great AAU program feed into the school, again he doesn't have to recruit. the Cal Stars program will do that for him.

Then there will be a kid who is amazing and doesn't want to play for Cal Stars, lives in the Tri-Valley Area...he would be crazy not to try to get that kid to go to C-Let. Not saying he does this, but not saying he wouldn't try. In the end, it's up to parents where they choose to send their kids and find the best fit for their child. Where I have a problem is when a kids transfers to 2-3 schools because it's not a good "fit". what is that teaching a kid??

 

[GBBall4L]

I think it's a combo of a few things. Kelly has arguably the "best" AAU program in Northern California and he's seen as a very popular coach both at the AAU and college coaching level. Kids have to tryout for Cal-Stars and they do because of the connections he brings to the table. So in that regard, he doesn't have to recruit. I think at Carondelet, he'll have the benefit of having a great AAU program feed into the school, again he doesn't have to recruit. the Cal Stars program will do that for him.

Then there will be a kid who is amazing and doesn't want to play for Cal Stars, lives in the Tri-Valley Area...he would be crazy not to try to get that kid to go to C-Let. Not saying he does this, but not saying he wouldn't try. In the end, it's up to parents where they choose to send their kids and find the best fit for their child. Where I have a problem is when a kids transfers to 2-3 schools because it's not a good "fit". what is that teaching a kid??

Transferring schools for the right reason is ok in my opinion. You wouldnt stay at the same place of employment if it wasn't a good fit so I cant expect a kid to stay at a high school that they wouldn't even be at if it weren't for the sport they played. But it all depends on circumstance. Transferring from one high school to the next is not a big deal but the 3rd transfer could become questionable depending on the situation. But I look at those situations with a bit more nuance than some but I do get your point.

 

[GBBall4L]

My question would be: Why is encouraging talented players to attend a particular school "immoral"? Yes, it's technically illegal, but so is driving over the speed limit -- but does that by itself make it immoral?

Certainly a case could be made that families should be able to pursue the dream of a full scholarship ($250,000 or so) or partial financial aid as best they see fit -- and why should CIF or anyone limit a family's chance to offset the cost of college?

Which leads to the next question: Who should benefit most from the existence of high school sports? The child? Or some outside goal, such as "competitive equity"?

The kids benefit the most because they love to play the sport.

 

[ankleassassin]

You either take your kid and join the party. Or you take your kid and her public school teammates and dedicate your whole 4 years of high school to getting to the mountain top and knocking off the recruiting machines. Even the greatest team ever assembled the golden state warriors blew a 3-1 lead.

 

[fan1gbball]

My question would be: Why is encouraging talented players to attend a particular school "immoral"? Yes, it's technically illegal, but so is driving over the speed limit -- but does that by itself make it immoral?

Certainly a case could be made that families should be able to pursue the dream of a full scholarship ($250,000 or so) or partial financial aid as best they see fit -- and why should CIF or anyone limit a family's chance to offset the cost of college?

Which leads to the next question: Who should benefit most from the existence of high school sports? The child? Or some outside goal, such as "competitive equity"?

I think the answer is not whether a family decides to transfer into a school or not, but how is it managed. Why was the Kelly hire delayed until after the start of the school year, when many in the AAU world knew about the hire back in June of this year.

I believe their are CIF rules around transferring into a school when a new coach is named. You experts will have to give your two cents here on the rules around transferring in.

 

[OnBall8]

Well that was fun while it lasted.. I love when forums collab and cross pollinate haha

but really, fan1's point is still valid and has not been touched upon