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NorCal Brackets

Streak One

Streak One

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Nov 11, 2003
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Open - https://cifstate.org/sports/basketball/G_brkts_2023/open

1. Piedmont
2. Mitty
3. Clovis West
4. Folsom
5. Salesian

Division I - https://cifstate.org/sports/basketball/G_brkts_2023/d1

1. St. Mary's
2. Oakland Tech
3. San Ramon Valley
4. Cardinal Newman

Division II - https://cifstate.org/sports/basketball/G_brkts_2023/d2

1. Marin Catholic
2. Pleasant Valley
3. Monte Vista
4. Central

Division III - https://cifstate.org/sports/basketball/G_brkts_2023/d3

1. University
2. Branson
3. Colfax
4. Chico

Division IV - https://cifstate.org/sports/basketball/G_brkts_2023/d4

1. San Domenico
2. Arcata
3. Kimball
4. Menlo-Atherton

Division V - https://cifstate.org/sports/basketball/G_brkts_2023/d5

1. Fall River
2. Santa Cruz
3. Bret Harte
4. Washington
 
So no CCS team is a top four seed in any division besides Mitty in open (actually M-A is #4 seed playing down three divisions and Santa Cruz is a #2 in D5). That's pretty awful
 
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TheHillZ said:
So no CCS team is a top four seed in any division besides Mitty in open (and M-A playing down three divisions). That's pretty horrific.
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Very poorly thought out. How a school with a losing record and 4th place finish in their own league (Buchanan) can hold a higher seed than ALL CCS D1 teams, it's pretty bad
 
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My thought on this has been why do so many teams have to move around? I would say there are only a handful of teams that should "move up" from their section division
 
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Mustange76 said:
Who’s in the room to advocate for the various sections? Assuming there are advocates, SJS has poor representatives.
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SMS is very happy to "drop" to the d1 top seed. I feel Antelope and McClatchy could be a little high but are about right. After all Pinewood is a 10 seed. d1 is LOADED
 
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Streak One said:
My thought on this has been why do so many teams have to move around? I would say there are only a handful of teams that should "move up" from their section division
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Poor Priory. The runner-up in CCS D5 is rewarded by moving up to the number 16 seed in D4. Meanwhile Half Moon Bay, the runner up in CCS D4 is moved down to CCS D5. That doesn't make a lot of sense.
 
TheHillZ said:
Poor Priory. The runner-up in CCS D5 is rewarded by moving up to the number 16 seed in D4. Meanwhile Half Moon Bay, the runner up in CCS D4 is moved down to CCS D5. That doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Shasta, winner of ccs d5, gets to travel 5 hours up the coast to Arcata as the 15 in d4. It's really insane the "logic" used
 
NorCalTown said:
SMS is very happy to "drop" to the d1 top seed. I feel Antelope and McClatchy could be a little high but are about right. After all Pinewood is a 10 seed. d1 is LOADED
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What doesn't make sense is BOD and Buchanan. They're too high IMO
 
blex20 said:
Shasta, winner of ccs d5, gets to travel 5 hours up the coast to Arcata as the 15 in d4. It's really insane the "logic" used
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Oh my goodness I didn't catch that. Shasta got shafted. That is a very good team. They are just one seed higher than Priory after beating them by 25 in the D5 final?
 
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Great matchups in D1. Will be fun to watch. If that was CIF's goal they succeeded. Just my guess on buchanan vs CCS:

Pinewood is 16-11. Buchanan has the better overall record and in a way stronger league.
SHCP got waxed by Pinewood and PA in the CCS Open. They can't be a higher seed than Pinewood or PA
Palo Alto lost to Buchanan (21-9) by 12.
 
HoopDreamz415 said:
Great matchups in D1. Will be fun to watch. If that was CIF's goal they succeeded. Just my guess on buchanan vs CCS:

Pinewood is 16-11. Buchanan has the better overall record and in a way stronger league.
SHCP got waxed by Pinewood and PA in the CCS Open. They can't be a higher seed than Pinewood or PA
Palo Alto lost to Buchanan (21-9) by 12.
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So do we look at overall body of work or just last week? Pinewood and SH have more marquee wins than Buchanan.
 
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blex20 said:
So do we look at overall body of work or just last week? Pinewood and SH have more marquee wins than Buchanan.
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Didn't say I agree. Just trying to make sense of it. If we except Pinewood being rewarded for the strong finish then can't complain about the SHCP weak finish (injury or not). And there is no marquee win criteria, so I just looked at what they listed as their criteria and connected the dots.

If that's how they looked at it, the only switch that would make sense is Pinewood #9 seed and Buchanan #10. But really splitting hairs at that point.
 
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HoopDreamz415 said:
Didn't say I agree. Just trying to make sense of it. If we except Pinewood being rewarded for the strong finish then can't complain about the SHCP weak finish (injury or not). And there is no marquee win criteria, so I just looked at what they listed as their criteria and connected the dots.

If that's how they looked at it, the only switch that would make sense is Pinewood #9 seed and Buchanan #10. But really splitting hairs at that point.
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Can you share where they list criteria for seeding? Interested in that for sure. When a team loses more league games than another team all season and gets seeded 5 places higher, has to be some most read material.
 
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I think the issue is consistency. You can view a resume as a whole and the section playoffs are just part of it. Or you can add more emphasis to the playoff games.

Problem is I’m not sure what theory the selection committee used.
 
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Big Climbs:

Pinewood -- no surprise. D5 to D1. They deserved better than a 10 seed. If they manage to beat Acalanes, they get a rematch with O Tech who they were leading until a hard foul knocked their point guard out and ended her season.

Crystal Springs -- surprise! D5 to D2. That will teach them to win games in CCS Open. Still think that at 21-4 with a win over Pinewood they should have gotten a home game after playing all their open games on the road.

University -- D5 to D3. Definitely not complaining about getting the #1 seed in D3. Max Preps ranks them ahead of six teams in the D2 bracket.

Big Falls

M-A -- D1 to D4. Lost in the D1 semis after a 22-2 regular season. Made it as a wildcard. But giving them a high seed in a much lower bracket seems like a reward for losing.

Hillsdale -- D2 to D4. Also a semifinal final loser (by a lot) and wildcard. No problem with them getting one of three free passes, but why move them down to cash in.

Half Moon Bay -- D3 to D5. Come on guys. This one is particularly bad. I guess if you move the CCS D3 Champ (Mills) down to D4, then it makes sense to move the D4 runner up down too. Maybe this is a reward for them stepping up to play CCS Open last year.
 
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IMO Heritage got the shaft. After being put into the NCS Open and losing any chance of winning a section title they get relegated all the way down to the 16 seed in D1??? Meanwhile Marin Catholic and Monte Vista avoid the Open and get gift wrapped section titles AND STILL get put as the top seed or near the top in D2? Talk about getting your cake and eating it too. Man, someone was advocating for those 2 schools in the seeding meeting (especially Marin Catholic).
 
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TheHillZ said:
Big Climbs:

Pinewood -- no surprise. D5 to D1. They deserved better than a 10 seed. If they manage to beat Acalanes, they get a rematch with O Tech who they were leading until a hard foul knocked their point guard out and ended her season.

Crystal Springs -- surprise! D5 to D2. That will teach them to win games in CCS Open. Still think that at 21-4 with a win over Pinewood they should have gotten a home game after playing all their open games on the road.

University -- D5 to D3. Definitely not complaining about getting the #1 seed in D3. Max Preps ranks them ahead of six teams in the D2 bracket.

Big Falls

M-A -- D1 to D4. Lost in the D1 semis after a 22-2 regular season. Made it as a wildcard. But giving them a high seed in a much lower bracket seems like a reward for losing.

Hillsdale -- D2 to D4. Also a semifinal final loser (by a lot) and wildcard. No problem with them getting one of three free passes, but why move them down to cash in.

Half Moon Bay -- D3 to D5. Come on guys. This one is particularly bad. I guess if you move the CCS D3 Champ (Mills) down to D4, then it makes sense to move the D4 runner up down too. Maybe this is a reward for them stepping up to play CCS Open last year.
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Actually HMB only moved down from D4 to D5. I don’t have an issue with this as it’s only one division.

Santa Cruz (22-7) moved down from D3 to D5 and got a 2 seed. This after losing to Mills in CCS playoffs.

A little common sense would place Santa Cruz in D4 as a low seed, and Priory in D5 as a high seed.
 
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TheHillZ said:
Big Climbs:

Pinewood -- no surprise. D5 to D1. They deserved better than a 10 seed. If they manage to beat Acalanes, they get a rematch with O Tech who they were leading until a hard foul knocked their point guard out and ended her season.

Crystal Springs -- surprise! D5 to D2. That will teach them to win games in CCS Open. Still think that at 21-4 with a win over Pinewood they should have gotten a home game after playing all their open games on the road.

University -- D5 to D3. Definitely not complaining about getting the #1 seed in D3. Max Preps ranks them ahead of six teams in the D2 bracket.

Big Falls

M-A -- D1 to D4. Lost in the D1 semis after a 22-2 regular season. Made it as a wildcard. But giving them a high seed in a much lower bracket seems like a reward for losing.

Hillsdale -- D2 to D4. Also a semifinal final loser (by a lot) and wildcard. No problem with them getting one of three free passes, but why move them down to cash in.

Half Moon Bay -- D3 to D5. Come on guys. This one is particularly bad. I guess if you move the CCS D3 Champ (Mills) down to D4, then it makes sense to move the D4 runner up down too. Maybe this is a reward for them stepping up to play CCS Open last year.
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Hillsdale lost to Carlmont head to head, finished behind them in league and had a weaker sos. Both lost in semis to eventual division winners, although Carmont lost to a higher ranked team. Valley Christian is another head scratcher. Ranked 6 places lower than Carlmont with fewer wins. Did have a higher sos. Do you go my ranking? Carlmont gets in ahead of VC. Go by sos, Carlmont gets in over Hillsdale. Head to head and league standings should count for something.
 
AtomicDawg1911 said:
What about Carondelet then ? Was that the same case ?
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I'm not sure i understand the question. Are we upset they are "only" a 6 seed? If so, I'm not sure what to say. They certainly aren't seeded based on their finish. They're ahead of Acalanes, who they've beaten. And behind CN, SRV and OT, who they have already lost to.
 
northbaybbguru said:
IMO Heritage got the shaft. After being put into the NCS Open and losing any chance of winning a section title they get relegated all the way down to the 16 seed in D1??? Meanwhile Marin Catholic and Monte Vista avoid the Open and get gift wrapped section titles AND STILL get put as the top seed or near the top in D2? Talk about getting your cake and eating it too. Man, someone was advocating for those 2 schools in the seeding meeting (especially Marin Catholic).
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Yeah MC probably got a makeup call for last year winning section and getting rewarded with the 14th seed and bowing out in the first round, they did a better job advocating then last year
 
blex20 said:
I'm not sure i understand the question. Are we upset they are "only" a 6 seed? If so, I'm not sure what to say. They certainly aren't seeded based on their finish. They're ahead of Acalanes, who they've beaten. And behind CN, SRV and OT, who they have already lost to.
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Just working to gain understanding on the seeding and what part of the season matters and what don’t. I’m not upset about anything.
 
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Yup on HMB, though I said they played in the D4 final. Agree Santa Cruz's drop was worse. Generally dislike bigger schools dropping into D5, especially when at least seven D5 schools were moved up. Would be hard to root for Santa Cruz (enrollment 1100+) or HMB (enrollment 1000+) in Sacramento against a tiny SoCal school, though they've got Gahr (which I think is quite a bit bigger) as the #1 seed in their D5.
 
TheHillZ said:
Yup on HMB, though I said they played in the D4 final. Agree Santa Cruz's drop was worse. Generally dislike bigger schools dropping into D5, especially when at least seven D5 schools were moved up. Would be hard to root for Santa Cruz (enrollment 1100+) or HMB (enrollment 1000+) in Sacramento against a tiny SoCal school, though they've got Gahr (which I think is quite a bit bigger) as the #1 seed in their D5.
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Gahr HS with 1900 students. D5 lol!

The problem with the people who do the seeding is they simply rank schools 1-88, or whatever. Then they place the first 5 in open, next 16 D1, etc. there is no analysis done whatsoever that I can tell. No common sense applied. That’s why so many people are upset. The competitive equity system could be good, but they need to tweak it. Maybe only let larger schools move down one division. If they are on the bubble between D4/D5, but the just lost a D3 CCS final, place them in D4 as a punishment for losing, not D5 as a reward for losing.
 
No matter what the system, someone will always be No. 16 in one division, and the next best team will be No. 1 in the next division down. That's just the luck of the draw and there's no way to avoid it except by going back to enrollment-only divisions. (Which means Pinewood is winning D5 every year, and schools like St. Joseph Notre Dame will manipulate enrollment numbers.)

What's interesting to me is the decision to go with five teams in the Open. It appears the goal is to only put teams in the Open that have a chance to compete in the Open, and thus to avoid blowouts. And note that since the boys and girls must have the same number of teams in the Open, and so do North and South that a team like Sage Hill -- which lost to Sierra Canyon by 50 or something -- winds up getting stuck in the SoCal girls' Open.

Aside from that, though, it appears there was little consistency in what criteria were used to rank teams, which suggests that the negotiating ability of the section commissioners was a major factor in seeding. And some people are better negotiators than others ...
 
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Until there are universal rules on the different section playoffs (which will never happen), it will always be this crapshoot of who can be on the right side of the count (No. 16 seed in D2 vs. No. 1 in D3 for example). That is kind of why Open is awesome and D1 is really good. Outside of that, it is hard to put much stock in who wins those brackets. Even though the basketball can still be entertaining.
 
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LBJ6 said:
I don’t understand average D1 schools with an average at best team with 3k kids playing for a D3 and D4 “state championship” and I never will.
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those kids get to say they are state champs. you can never take that away. so few will ever sniff that chance.
3k kids is deceiving. some schools have 3k and 2899 of cant chew gum and walk at the same time
 
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