CIF SJS Football Playoffs Selection Show

[Santa Ball]

SJS-SFL

It appears that the SFL is a $$$ league and home to some of the best teams in the entire section. I'm imagining that the game day crowds are large, which leads to a nice gate/snackbar, and league supremacy. This league is great for the kids and communities but in retrospect, they are given a few unfair advantages. For starters, I think Granite Bay has an incredible football program, but they should not be in the playoffs with a 1-4 league record.

In the spirit of fairness, the CIF should consider implementing a few rule changes, if this league is going to stay as currently constructed.

1) All SFL teams should compete in the SJS Div1 playoffs. If you're going to be a true super league, then compete for the Div 1 title. The CIF should stop maneauvering SFL teams between divisions based on enrollment.
2) An SFL team that goes 1-4 in league should not make the playoffs.
3) Del Oro, Rocklin, and Oak Ridge all have two league losses with average preseason schedules. All teams were granted favorable seedings in their perspective divisional brackets. ( No knock on the teams, great programs)

I recall an experiment back in the day with WCAL, most teams we're forced to the open division as a quarantine to allow the publics a chance to compete (understanding the obvious advantages they had). While not a great analogy, I ask how different is this quarantine strategy? I say this while noting that the SFL is getting an unfair advantage in seeding but realistically they play in a tough league and would smoke alot of opponents even if buried at the bottom seeding of enrollment based division assignment. Unlike the privates, what advantages do they have amongst bretherin publics? Not all SFL teams have 18 transfers.

 

[WWHS44]

Easy there on the transfers Santa. Those are legal non Folsom residents!

 

[pastyfastquick3]

I recall an experiment back in the day with WCAL, most teams we're forced to the open division as a quarantine to allow the publics a chance to compete (understanding the obvious advantages they had). While not a great analogy, I ask how different is this quarantine strategy? I say this while noting that the SFL is getting an unfair advantage in seeding but realistically they play in a tough league and would smoke alot of opponents even if buried at the bottom seeding of enrollment based division assignment. Unlike the privates, what advantages do they have amongst bretherin publics? Not all SFL teams have 18 transfers.

You're right. Not all schools have transfers.

Except for Rocklin- they have a total of 18 transfers exactly for this schools year.

CIF Sac-Joaquin Section

CIF Sac-Joaquin Section

cifsjs.org

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

If you further proof of this, just ask yourself why Central Catholic and MT were locked into D1 this year? Neither one met the posted continued success criteria. When they both were in D2 last year, MT broke the brackets. And now if you look at the D1 and D2 brackets, they are constructed so that all-SFL title games can occur. Great lengths were gone to so as to avoid ANY match-up between SFL teams until as late in the brackets as possible.

i have no dog in the fight... but I will play devil's advocate here, cuz it does reek a little of homer complaining, and usually, I find MTs posts pretty reasonable.

1. there is no absolute criteria for continued success. It says " Continued success may include, but not be limited to, the following:"

So, whatever that's worth. As far as CC, they are defending D2 champs, and have made the semis/finals 3 of the past 4 yrs. They feasted on lower divisions for years, so I'm not crying for them.

2. That being said, MT locked into D1 is weird. But they were going to be locked into D1 no matter what per enrollment. I think the weirder thing though, is they've been D1 forever, and they were D2 last year. Probably an enrollment numbers fluke.

3. I think the all SFL title game conspiracy is a bit much. If you look, they seem to make an effort to put all contenders in the same league on opposite sides of the brackets, for all leagues.
4. As far as splitting the SFL into D1 and D2... it's pretty clear per enrollment that it is what it is. We know no one is going lower than D2, per SFL being a D1 league, even though DO (and potentially GB), is a D3 enrollment.

even Del Oro, after making finals 4 yrs in a row, and winning 3 of them, they were bumped to D1 the last 2 years. They moved back down to D2 due to not making semis those 2 yrs.

5. And as far as seeding less that #4 for 2nd and 3rd place sfl teams... I think there is credence that Oak Ridge all these years except last year (and Folsom last year when Rocklin beat them)... were top 4 in Division 1. Looking back to 2015, I don't see more than 2 SFL teams in D1 playoffs except for last year with DO as a 7 seed. EDIT:the last 2 years with DO as a 7 and 10 seed

 

[MTsince2004]

i have no dog in the fight... but I will play devil's advocate here, cuz it does reek a little of homer complaining, and usually, I find MTs posts pretty reasonable.

1. there is no absolute criteria for continued success. It says " Continued success may include, but not be limited to, the following:"

So, whatever that's worth. As far as CC, they are defending D2 champs, and have made the semis/finals 3 of the past 4 yrs. They feasted on lower divisions for years, so I'm not crying for them.

2. That being said, MT locked into D1 is weird. But they were going to be locked into D1 no matter what per enrollment. I think the weirder thing though, is they've been D1 forever, and they were D2 last year. Probably an enrollment numbers fluke.

3. I think the all SFL title game conspiracy is a bit much. If you look, they seem to make an effort to put all contenders in the same league on opposite sides of the brackets, for all leagues.
4. As far as splitting the SFL into D1 and D2... it's pretty clear per enrollment that it is what it is. We know no one is going lower than D2, per SFL being a D1 league, even though DO (and potentially GB), is a D3 enrollment.

even Del Oro, after making finals 4 yrs in a row, and winning 3 of them, they were bumped to D1 the last 2 years. They moved back down to D2 due to not making semis those 2 yrs.

5. And as far as seeding less that #4 for 2nd and 3rd place sfl teams... I think there is credence that Oak Ridge all these years except last year (and Folsom last year when Rocklin beat them)... were top 4 in Division 1. Looking back to 2015, I don't see more than 2 SFL teams in D1 playoffs except for last year with DO as a 7 seed.

I get what you are saying. Not going to argue that there is a conspiratorial nature to my posts in this thread. Fair enough.

To be honest. much of it is frustration with league placement. It has been the issue for years now. In certain leagues, there is simply no way to overcome the built-in bias in the algorithm once league starts. It's not a problem with Cal Preps. It's a problem with the construction of the leagues. In reality, it doesn't affect MT that much. Maybe a spot or two in seeding.

Like I said originally, I am really surprised how Central Catholic was slighted out of bye when the main advantage Oak Ridge has is simply playing in the SFL.

 

[Santa Ball]

You're right. Not all schools have transfers.

Except for Rocklin- they have a total of 18 transfers exactly for this schools year.

CIF Sac-Joaquin Section

CIF Sac-Joaquin Section

cifsjs.org

Keep'em coming, I always say. 😀

 

[larry legend33]

In the end, seedings have some level of matter but you have to win on the field and you are going to have to beat good teams anyway. So let’s see how it settles on the field where it matters the most.
So what if OR was a 5 seed instead of CC. Ok they slaughter stagg by 50 in round 1. Then In round 2 they play MT instead of Elk Grove. Is that really that diff? EG has a solid resume and played a good schedule. Both run the crap out of the ball.
People belly ache too much about this stuff. You are going to have to beat Folsom or st marys eventually. Pick your poison.
And when GB keeps rolling in D2 I will be laughing about some of these comments. You play in the best league in norcal and people take that into consideration.

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

In the end, seedings have some level of matter but you have to win on the field and you are going to have to beat good teams anyway. So let’s see how it settles on the field where it matters the most.
So what if OR was a 5 seed instead of CC. Ok they slaughter stagg by 50 in round 1. Then In round 2 they play MT instead of Elk Grove. Is that really that diff? EG has a solid resume and played a good schedule. Both run the crap out of the ball.
People belly ache too much about this stuff. You are going to have to beat Folsom or st marys eventually. Pick your poison.
And when GB keeps rolling in D2 I will be laughing about some of these comments. You play in the best league in norcal and people take that into consideration.

i don't agree with this either. seeding matters... and home field matters... and having the bye week, vs even a running clock game matters.... injuries can happen in a 50-0 blowout.

so, yeah... i think CC should be above OR... and MT should be 3... but if cc/or is 4/5...that's a 90-120 min travel time we are talking, depending on traffic. That matters.

 

[MTsince2004]

In the end, seedings have some level of matter but you have to win on the field and you are going to have to beat good teams anyway. So let’s see how it settles on the field where it matters the most.
So what if OR was a 5 seed instead of CC. Ok they slaughter stagg by 50 in round 1. Then In round 2 they play MT instead of Elk Grove. Is that really that diff? EG has a solid resume and played a good schedule. Both run the crap out of the ball.
People belly ache too much about this stuff. You are going to have to beat Folsom or st marys eventually. Pick your poison.
And when GB keeps rolling in D2 I will be laughing about some of these comments. You play in the best league in norcal and people take that into consideration.

Come on. It's easy to say "Let's just settle it on the field" when the field is tilted in your favor. You've already admitted the bias is there and that OR should have been at #5. When systemic issues are constantly favoring one over the other, it's a cop-out to say "It really doesn't matter."

I want to be clear. I do not speak FOR the Monterey Trail program. I often speak with the coaches and they don't care about any of this. None of this even affects MT that much because the program has just scheduled way up in the preseason and then takes care of business on the field.

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

When systemic issues are constantly favoring one over the other, it's a cop-out to say "It really doesn't matter."

and I don't agree that the fact the SFL is given more weight is a problem.

the fact remains, teams in a great league are at a disadvantage when it comes to wins and losses. That should be accounted for.

(though I do agree OR should be 5)

 

[MTsince2004]

and I don't agree that the fact the SFL is given more weight is a problem.

the fact remains, teams in a great league are at a disadvantage when it comes to wins and losses. That should be accounted for.

(though I do agree OR should be 5)

Totally disagree. They are at no disadvantage as far as making the playoffs and getting top seeds. The SFL only plays five league games. Whitney could have scheduled five cream puffs then get blasted by four touchdowns every week in league and still make the playoffs. Granite Bay won one game in league and got a home game. OR, DO and Rocklin finished in a three way tie for 2nd, which means that they are also 3rd and 4th. All of them got byes. There is no observable disadvantage to any of that.

 

[bulldogmgc]

Hmm. If OR really should be the #5 seed, I guess that means St. Mary’s really got the #1 seed. 😂🤣😝

 

[ThunderRam]

Not to nitpick, but you didn't go far enough on one point: an SFL team can go 0-5 in league and make the playoffs. Whitney could have scheduled complete jokes in pre-league, then gotten a playoff bid getting beat every week in the SFL. The SFL algorithm advantage is real. It's baked right into the formula. It is better to lose in a good league than dominate in a lower-rated league.

The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place teams in the SFL all get bye weeks. The 5th place team got a home game. The winless-in-league 6th place team was four points away from a playoff berth. Finishing tied for 4th in the SFL is better than winning the VOL. That is some serious bias.

It sure didn’t used to be this way. I still don’t understand why the 2-league win rule was abolished.

I’m an SFL fan, but I’m not for any system that allows a team that was 0-5 in league (or even 1-4) into the postseason. I really don’t like to see sub.500 teams in the postseason at all. But I recognize that due to numerous factors that can’t always be avoided. But if a team can’t at least win a couple games in their own league — they definitely don’t belong in the postseason.


It sucked back in the day when teams missed the playoffs with a 7-3 overall, 4-2 league record (happened to my alma mater) or worse yet a 9-1 team whose only loss was on a last second play (happened to Nevada Union in 1996) but in a way I think that system was better than allowing losing teams into the dance.

Can’t a happy medium be found?

And before I hear the excuse that the sections want “inclusion” consider the fact that 4 less teams are in brackets than there used to be with these 1st round byes.

 

[larry legend33]

Hmm. If OR really should be the #5 seed, I guess that means St. Mary’s really got the #1 seed. 😂🤣😝

Strong argument could be made for st marys at #1. But now you get OR most likely Nov 18 instead of CC or MT. You might have fared better now.

 

[MTsince2004]

Hmm. If OR really should be the #5 seed, I guess that means St. Mary’s really got the #1 seed. 😂🤣😝

Pros:
10-0 vs 9-1.
A larger margin of victory against a common opponent.

Cons:
Folsom is defending champion
They play in the SFL

It's clear how the seeding committee thinks, even if the difference in #1 vs #2 is just jersey colors.

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

Totally disagree. They are at no disadvantage as far as making the playoffs and getting top seeds. The SFL only plays five league games. Whitney could have scheduled five cream puffs then get blasted by four touchdowns every week in league and still make the playoffs. Granite Bay won one game in league and got a home game. OR, DO and Rocklin finished in a three way tie for 2nd, which means that they are also 3rd and 4th. All of them got byes. There is no observable disadvantage to any of that.

they are at no disadvantage BECAUSE the league strength is accounted for.

All you have to do is look at the Trinity league. Those non MD/SJB teams would otherwise be really low seeds, or in their system, D2. Orange Lutheran, serra, and santa margarita all 2-3 in league, 6-4 overall, serra is 5-5, and all top 17 in state. All in Southern Section's D1 playoff.

If the league strength in the SFL wasn't accounted for, they'd possibly all be unjustifiably seeded too low, and there'd be uproar about how Jesuit is seeded above Del Oro.

DO and Rocklln got byes because they are in D2... and it's hard to argue they aren't top 4 in D2. In fact, I'd argue Rocklin should've been 3 over Downey... but since they split DO and Rocklin, they bumped Rocklin down to 4. When DO was in D1, they were the 7 and 10 seed. So that is evidence against your argument. You could argue Jesuit should be above Rocklin, and that would bolster your argument. But they both should be above Downey, which would've given Rocklin a bye anyways.

 

[MTsince2004]

they are at no disadvantage BECAUSE the league strength is accounted for.

All you have to do is look at the Trinity league. Those non MD/SJB teams would otherwise be really low seeds, or in their system, D2. Orange Lutheran, serra, and santa margarita all 2-3 in league, 6-4 overall, serra is 5-5, and all top 17 in state. All in Southern Section's D1 playoff.

If the league strength in the SFL wasn't accounted for, they'd possibly all be unjustifiably seeded too low, and there'd be uproar about how Jesuit is seeded above Del Oro.

DO and Rocklln got byes because they are in D2... and it's hard to argue they aren't top 4 in D2. In fact, I'd argue Rocklin should've been 3 over Downey... but since they split DO and Rocklin, they bumped Rocklin down to 4. When DO was in D1, they were the 7 and 10 seed. So that is evidence against your argument. You could argue Jesuit should be above Rocklin, and that would bolster your argument. But they both should be above Downey, which would've given Rocklin a bye anyways.

League strength can be accounted for, of course. But you are missing that the creation of the unbalanced leagues is the problem that I am actually complaining about. When a team is placed in a league, they are essentially stuck there, for good or for bad. The benefits of being a bottom feeder in a super-league outweighs the benefits of competing in a weak league. Any of Whitney's losses in league will always be better than Laguna Creek's wins. Whether this is actually true or not doesn't matter. This year it was. Next year, maybe not.

This would all be fine IF there was some type of relegation/promotion system in place. The easy proof of that is exactly what happened with Grant this year. They were over matched in the SFL. They leave for the Metro and their whole mindset changes. Imagine a system that makes this a fundamental part of its structure.

As an example, let's make a 12 team Delta and resurrect the old Delta River (A league) and Delta Valley (B league) within it. You could go even bigger and make it 18 teams with three sub-leagues, but not in this post.

Fill the sub-leagues like this (Davis, River City, or other teams could also be used):

Delta River
Folsom
Oak Ridge
Monterey Trail
Elk Grove
Jesuit
Sheldon

Delta Valley
Laguna Creek
Cosumnes Oaks
Franklin
Pleasant Grove
McClatchy
Kennedy

That's five league games PLUS each team in each sub-league has to play at least one pre-season game against a team in the other. That still leaves four other pre-league games and no in-league byes. Traditional rivalries could be created and maintained that way.

Now, whomever finishes in the bottom one or two spots in the Delta River gets moved down to the Delta Valley and the same number of teams come up. It could be done every year or two, but definitely more often than full re-alignment.

So in this scenario, when a team in the Delta River is given a benefit due to being in a strong league, they EARNED it, at least to some extent. The Delta River could be given more automatic playoff berths or just benefit from overall league strength for at-large bids. The winner of the Delta Valley would get an automatic bid, for sure. Additionally, any team that schedules well and wins a lot would still be eligible for an at-large bid.

12 or 18 team clusters could be created throughout the section combining any manner of divisions within it as makes sense. Imagine a Sierra league that had Sierra Foothill and Sierra View sub-leagues with teams like Granite Bay, Del Oro, Rocklin, Grant. Antelope, Woodcreek, Whitney, Inderkum, Roseville, etc. The "Strong League" advantage would be earned and teams would maintain strength or cycle accordingly.

Placing teams into particular divisions for playoffs is another post. This model does not directly address that. It would be too long to go into here.

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

League strength can be accounted for, of course. But you are missing that the creation of the unbalanced leagues is the problem that I am actually complaining about. When a team is placed in a league, they are essentially stuck there, for good or for bad. The benefits of being a bottom feeder in a super-league outweighs the benefits of competing in a weak league. Any of Whitney's losses in league will always be better than Laguna Creek's wins. Whether this is actually true or not doesn't matter. This year it was. Next year, maybe not.

This would all be fine IF there was some type of relegation/promotion system in place. The easy proof of that is exactly what happened with Grant this year. They were over matched in the SFL. They leave for the Metro and their whole mindset changes. Imagine a system that makes this a fundamental part of its structure.

As an example, let's make a 12 team Delta and resurrect the old Delta River (A league) and Delta Valley (B league) within it. You could go even bigger and make it 18 teams with three sub-leagues, but not in this post.

Fill the sub-leagues like this (Davis, River City, or other teams could also be used):

Delta River
Folsom
Oak Ridge
Monterey Trail
Elk Grove
Jesuit
Sheldon

Delta Valley
Laguna Creek
Cosumnes Oaks
Franklin
Pleasant Grove
McClatchy
Kennedy

That's five league games PLUS each team in each sub-league has to play at least one pre-season game against a team in the other. That still leaves four other pre-league games and no in-league byes. Traditional rivalries could be created and maintained that way.

Now, whomever finishes in the bottom one or two spots in the Delta River gets moved down to the Delta Valley and the same number of teams come up. It could be done every year or two, but definitely more often than full re-alignment.

So in this scenario, when a team in the Delta River is given a benefit due to being in a strong league, they EARNED it, at least to some extent. The Delta River could be given more automatic playoff berths or just benefit from overall league strength for at-large bids. The winner of the Delta Valley would get an automatic bid, for sure. Additionally, any team that schedules well and wins a lot would still be eligible for an at-large bid.

12 or 18 team clusters could be created throughout the section combining any manner of divisions within it as makes sense. Imagine a Sierra league that had Sierra Foothill and Sierra View sub-leagues with teams like Granite Bay, Del Oro, Rocklin, Grant. Antelope, Woodcreek, Whitney, Inderkum, Roseville, etc. The "Strong League" advantage would be earned and teams would maintain strength or cycle accordingly.

Placing teams into particular divisions for playoffs is another post. This model does not directly address that. It would be too long to go into here.

that makes all sorts of sense, of course. For football.

i'm not missing anything.. It's just the nature of HS sports: leagues exist, and for a variety of reasons, they are formed with more than football in mind. BlackHatFootball put that proposal out there earlier in the year: a football only alignment. And it would make so much sense what you propose here, and what he did. For football.

So until then, there will be no system that satisfies everyone. There aren't enough good teams, and the vast majority of them are clumped into the SFL.... which, btw, is a mostly geographical alignment. So for whatever reasons, the foothills produce some good football. And until then, you have to work with what you have. The SFL is full of tough teams. That should be accounted for in seedings, until that is no longer the case.

 

[MTsince2004]

that makes all sorts of sense, of course. For football.

i'm not missing anything.. It's just the nature of HS sports: leagues exist, and for a variety of reasons, they are formed with more than football in mind. BlackHatFootball put that proposal out there earlier in the year: a football only alignment. And it would make so much sense what you propose here, and what he did. For football.

So until then, there will be no system that satisfies everyone. There aren't enough good teams, and the vast majority of them are clumped into the SFL.... which, btw, is a mostly geographical alignment. So for whatever reasons, the foothills produce some good football. And until then, you have to work with what you have. The SFL is full of tough teams. That should be accounted for in seedings, until that is no longer the case.

Yes, football only. Sorry, I should have made that clear. Although, it could be done for all sports like the CCS does.

And yes, no system will satisfy everyone. This is just the soapbox I decided to stand on at this time.

 

[mistark]

I've been on board with a relegation type model. Same with football only leagues. I think the section has at least started listening to a fb only proposal but it has major pushback from the section to say the least. I would be shocked if we ever got a FB only scenarion. Maybe, MAYBE you will see more 1 team transfers (Grant to SFL) into a league but don't get your hopes up for that or relegation.

 

[MTsince2004]

I've been on board with a relegation type model. Same with football only leagues. I think the section has at least started listening to a fb only proposal but it has major pushback from the section to say the least. I would be shocked if we ever got a FB only scenarion. Maybe, MAYBE you will see more 1 team transfers (Grant to SFL) into a league but don't get your hopes up for that or relegation.

Yes, I've been told as much. There is always talk about it, then it goes nowhere. It's one reason that it's hard to swallow. Deep down, you just know it won't change.

Then again, stranger things have happened.

 

[mistark]

The playoff seeding needs to be blown up imo. The committee has made it way too hard on themselves. They create rules and are forced to break them, providing lil consistency from bracket to bracket. I am not sure what the answers are for their problems though. Truth is that even the best committee would have bias and still lack the perfect knowledge of who really deserves what seed. In the end I just want whatever is best for hsfb

 

[ThunderRam]

Pros:
10-0 vs 9-1.
A larger margin of victory against a common opponent.

Cons:
Folsom is defending champion
They play in the SFL

It's clear how the seeding committee thinks, even if the difference in #1 vs #2 is just jersey colors.

As a pro-SFL fan, I‘m already on record in believing St. Mary’s should have been the #1 seed. Their respective performances against a legit common opponent should have been the deciding factor in the Rams favor.

I mean, St. Mary’s is building the only resume to battle Serra for the Open bid yet they can‘t beat out Folsom in the committees eyes for the #1 seed in SJS D1?

Shenanigans.

 

[bulldogmgc]

As a pro-SFL fan, I‘m already on record in believing St. Mary’s should have been the #1 seed. Their respective performances against a legit common opponent should have been the deciding factor in the Rams favor.

I mean, St. Mary’s is building the only resume to battle Serra for the Open bid yet they can‘t beat out Folsom in the committees eyes for the #1 seed in SJS D1?

Shenanigans.

Shhhhh! Don’t let @pastyfastquick3 hear this, you might upset him. He’s been kinda quiet lately. Maybe he finally got some sleep. We don’t want to wake him up while he’s enjoying his BYE week. 😉

 

[MTsince2004]

I've been on board with a relegation type model. Same with football only leagues. I think the section has at least started listening to a fb only proposal but it has major pushback from the section to say the least. I would be shocked if we ever got a FB only scenarion. Maybe, MAYBE you will see more 1 team transfers (Grant to SFL) into a league but don't get your hopes up for that or relegation.

Two quick and easy moves that would help things (football only): MT to the Delta and Edison to the TCAL.

Both leagues get a boost. Not to the SFL level, but a boost nonetheless.

MT would balance the Delta and Metro back to even-numbered teams. Edison could just swap with West.

 

[MTsince2004]

As a pro-SFL fan, I‘m already on record in believing St. Mary’s should have been the #1 seed. Their respective performances against a legit common opponent should have been the deciding factor in the Rams favor.

I mean, St. Mary’s is building the only resume to battle Serra for the Open bid yet they can‘t beat out Folsom in the committees eyes for the #1 seed in SJS D1?

Shenanigans.

Can't argue with this.

 

[BigMann08]

Maybe the SJS can adopt an Open division for playoffs similar to CCS? Add to that, maybe CIF adopts an Open division playoff format with top 4 or more section champs complete in a format similar to what we have for basketball. Throw out the Folsom rule, and truly send our best to the State Open game. Don’t win in Open playoffs, then go home. Schools who participate in the basketball Open playoffs aren’t complaining. Not everyone needs a participation trophy. Still can have state championships for D1 thru D7, but like in basketball, we will all know the true state champion. And sure, SoCal has this championship sewn up but still have to play the game and in doing so we know for sure we are sending our best team. But, I guess it comes down to $$$ and time on the calendar.

Indeed! The SJS Open was a good idea for Basketball! From what I hear the top teams want to compete in the Open because you get to see who is best in the section!

You are right! We all know who the true state champ is in basketball.

Regarding football, I like the idea of bringing the NorCal Open game back…Take this year for instance …. the potential matchups are real intriguing!

 

[bulldogmgc]

Two quick and easy moves that would help things (football only): MT to the Delta and Edison to the TCAL.

Both leagues get a boost. Not to the SFL level, but a boost nonetheless.

MT would balance the Delta and Metro back to even-numbered teams. Edison could just swap with West.

100% agree! I was speaking with a Lincoln supporter on the sidelines during the SM vs Lincoln game last Friday and we both agreed Edison should have been allowed to move to TCAL (as an Edison fan/coach shared they were denied with their request). But, the Lincoln supporter also suggested St. Mary’s be moved out of TCAL and there should be a formed Catholic league with St. Mary’s, De La Salle, Central Catholic, Jesuit, and BOD be the teams included. I shared that would be a good idea and it could be called the ECAL (East version of WCAL). But, I also suggested St. Mary’s return to the VOL league where Central Catholic is currently part of. Some strong teams like CC, Manteca, and Oakdale currently exist. I think the Lincoln guy was much frustrated with the losing streak. There was a time that Lincoln, Edison, and St. Mary’s would all three teams be very competitive, early 2000’s. He recalled as well. But, now he says it’s unfair and questioned what changed. I shared one reason for improvement was St. Mary’s having their own feeder program with the Junior Rams program. But, like De La Salle and Folsom, parents in the area want their kids to play for St. Mary’s because of the success it has had. Parents gravitate to sending their kids to schools where there is success and want to be a part of it. To be honest, when I sent my kids to St. Mary’s starting in 2003, I had no clue about their football program and really didn’t care. I sent my sons to St. Mary’s because of academics and because of enriching their Catholic faith, sports was a lower priority. My eldest son was actually aiming to join the St. Mary’s water polo team because his swim coach pre-high school was a St. Mary’s alumnus and thought my son would be playing varsity water polo as a freshman. He did not pursue water polo mainly because of logistics. He would have to practice at UOP and would need transportation. Also, everyone was saying if you want to get to know the fellow freshman boys, sign up for football. Also, he was having a good time/experience playing for the South Stockton Vikings, where another player from that team joined him at St. Mary’s. But, now I believe it has been the success at St. Mary’s that has done its own recruiting (not coaches like many think). Maybe it’s fallen it a slight bit at DLS because coaching has changed, especially with the retirement of Terry Eidson (completing the coaching transition)? But, many think Covid has attributed to the decline due to tuition cost and economy. Even St. Mary’s enrollment is down quite a bit due to tuition cost and economy. When my sons were attending SM, they had around 1200 enrollment. Now it’s around 700-800 students. Also, how much more time before Coach Franks retires? What happens when he does retire? Coach Tony Franks is a SM alumnus and has been their head coach since my eldest son attended the school. So, maybe St. Mary’s may be soon on the decline. At least the schools such as Edison and Lincoln hope so. So, maybe no need to kick SM out of TCAL, just yet. Lol.

 

[mistark]

Two quick and easy moves that would help things (football only): MT to the Delta and Edison to the TCAL.

Both leagues get a boost. Not to the SFL level, but a boost nonetheless.

MT would balance the Delta and Metro back to even-numbered teams. Edison could just swap with West.

The problem is we have about 30-40% of the section trying to be great in football. I mean really trying, hiring good coaches, year round programs, accountability across the board. We have another big chunk that's ok with letting whichever coach they have just run the program and just be ok, decent staff, decent team. The last chunk doesn't care at all and has a constant stream of new coaches every 1 or 2 years.

How do you put the puzzle together for football when health and safety are a bigger factor than any other sport the section offers?

 

[MTsince2004]

The problem is we have about 30-40% of the section trying to be great in football. I mean really trying, hiring good coaches, year round programs, accountability across the board. We have another big chunk that's ok with letting whichever coach they have just run the program and just be ok, decent staff, decent team. The last chunk doesn't care at all and has a constant stream of new coaches every 1 or 2 years.

How do you put the puzzle together for football when health and safety are a bigger factor than any other sport the section offers?

Totally agree. It's why there needs to be football-only leagues. And they need to evaluate them mid-realignment cycle in case a program jumps up or falls off quickly. A-B-C leagues with the potential for promotion and relegation. Safety could and should be a huge factor in the decision.

Safety and competitiveness aren't always the same thing, so some teams may end up in more challenging leagues and take more losses under that system. Whitney this year would be an example. MT went through a similar arc when playing in the various Delta incarnations. There were many years when Monterey Trail would only win a game or two if they played their best football. However, there were very few injuries from being overmatched. Those teams might bounce back and forth between A and B leagues. Others might bounce back and forth between B and C levels.

Creating A-B-C level leagues could handle all of that. The playoffs could then be set up to reward the teams for being in the best leagues while also allowing the teams from lesser leagues to build and play up to prove themselves. I really think a program like Laguna Creek would benefit in this model. They were a C-league team with real safety concerns before Nill took over. They would be a competitive B-level team now with no safety concerns. They could use the playoffs to evaluate themselves and possible make a statement about whether they are ready for the A-league.

 

[mistark]

I don't know with 100% certainty that the A,B,C level leagues has been submitted in an official proposal but I do know I've been asked to review, add-to or have seen Head Coaches and AD model/prototype for these leagues. I know some, (how many really?) campus teachers that are head coaches and or athletic directors that want some change. I think there is a better model that will bring more money into these schools/programs and our section as a whole but I'm also aware my opinions are not worth more than the paper they're written on.

 

[mistark]

At the end of the day I want the section to look out for the programs that actually care to put a good product on the field year in and year out (no matter enrollemnt or division) . I support any administration that actually cares about making HSFB better. I feel bad for coaches, programs and schools that try hard to be great but get screwed over because the section made a random guideline that allows a program w/admin that don't care into the playoffs all based on a faulty format. Help HSFB get better!

 

[pastyfastquick3]

Shhhhh! Don’t let @pastyfastquick3 hear this, you might upset him. He’s been kinda quiet lately. Maybe he finally got some sleep. We don’t want to wake him up while he’s enjoying his BYE week. 😉

Ahhhhh the sounds of quietness in the bye week, along with ANOTHER undefeated SFL season.

 

[BigMann08]

I recall an experiment back in the day with WCAL, most teams we're forced to the open division as a quarantine to allow the publics a chance to compete (understanding the obvious advantages they had). While not a great analogy, I ask how different is this quarantine strategy? I say this while noting that the SFL is getting an unfair advantage in seeding but realistically they play in a tough league and would smoke alot of opponents even if buried at the bottom seeding of enrollment based division assignment. Unlike the privates, what advantages do they have amongst bretherin publics? Not all SFL teams have 18 transfers.

The unfair advantage is that Laguna Creek with a 7-3 record (3-2 in league) is left out of the playoffs. Granite Bay, while a great program, only had 1 league win. They should not be in the playoffs with 1 league win. No team should make the playoffs with a 1-4 league record. I don't care how good your league is. To be in a league where a team can go 0-5 and still make the playoffs is ridiculous, especially with a section the size of SJS.

Granite Bay was rewarded with a favorable bracket in the SJS division 2 playoffs. If the Super league was never formed, they would be in the D1 playoffs with a much better record.

The SJS enrollment based divisions should be revisited. Especially since you have all of these subpar large enrollment schools struggling to keep coaches and players.

 

[pastyfastquick3]

The unfair advantage is that Laguna Creek with a 7-3 record (3-2 in league) is left out of the playoffs. Granite Bay, while a great program, only had 1 league win. They should not be in the playoffs with 1 league win. No team should make the playoffs with a 1-4 league record. I don't care how good your league is. To be in a league where a team can go 0-5 and still make the playoffs is ridiculous, especially with a section the size of SJS.

Granite Bay was rewarded with a favorable bracket in the SJS division 2 playoffs. If the Super league was never formed, they would be in the D1 playoffs with a much better record.

The SJS enrollment based divisions should be revisited. Especially since you have all of these subpar large enrollment schools struggling to keep coaches and players.

And there really aren't leagues that are notable outside of the SFL.

You're either in the SFL or you're not.

 

[Streak One]

The unfair advantage is that Laguna Creek with a 7-3 record (3-2 in league) is left out of the playoffs. Granite Bay, while a great program, only had 1 league win. They should not be in the playoffs with 1 league win. No team should make the playoffs with a 1-4 league record. I don't care how good your league is. To be in a league where a team can go 0-5 and still make the playoffs is ridiculous, especially with a section the size of SJS.

Granite Bay was rewarded with a favorable bracket in the SJS division 2 playoffs. If the Super league was never formed, they would be in the D1 playoffs with a much better record.

The SJS enrollment based divisions should be revisited. Especially since you have all of these subpar large enrollment schools struggling to keep coaches and players.

I agree that there needs to be a system where teams like Laguna Creek get in. It has been mentioned, but we should be promoting teams who are trying to build up their programs in some way. And Laguna Creek fits that bill.

That said, Granite Bay is a playoff level team. Yes they have one league win, but they also beat the champs from the Delta and the MEL.

 

[Santa Ball]

The unfair advantage is that Laguna Creek with a 7-3 record (3-2 in league) is left out of the playoffs. Granite Bay, while a great program, only had 1 league win. They should not be in the playoffs with 1 league win. No team should make the playoffs with a 1-4 league record. I don't care how good your league is. To be in a league where a team can go 0-5 and still make the playoffs is ridiculous, especially with a section the size of SJS.

Granite Bay was rewarded with a favorable bracket in the SJS division 2 playoffs. If the Super league was never formed, they would be in the D1 playoffs with a much better record.

The SJS enrollment based divisions should be revisited. Especially since you have all of these subpar large enrollment schools struggling to keep coaches and players.

I'm torn on this, my gut tells me two things, Laguna should be in the playoffs and SFL teams in D2, shouldn't get a seeding bias. How one goes about that is unknown to me. I also believe you should have two league wins to be eligible for playoffs.

That said, let's line them up then. Laguna Creek vs. Granite Bay, guess who goes home by halftime?

Laguna Creek vs. Rocklin...
Laguna Creek vs. Del Oro...

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

I agree that there needs to be a system where teams like Laguna Creek get in.

i was surprised that LC didn't easily make it... but that's because it looks like they changed how they do it.

They used to determine the at large qualifiers over D1-4. (and the at large qualifications have changed over the years). so that would determine the 48 teams (this year 48, used to be 64 once upon a time)... then rank them by enrollment and split the brackets that way, top 12 biggest schools were D1...bottom 12 enrollment D4.

Looks like this year, they stuck to the 'columns' on the enrollment sheet and predetermined which division you were in.. then compared D1 only to D1. So a school like LC, if you just looked at calpreps ranked at 306, doesn't make it over a 521 ranked stagg, cuz they aren't in same division. The old way, Stagg #521 doesn't come close to qualifying, along with #495 gregori, and that's just looking at d1 and 2.

Indy and Gregori are D1 schools that got bumped down to D2 due to the auto entries (EG, SMS, CC) that bumped the lowest enrollment D1 into D2: indy and gregori (at large qualifiers in D1, but gregori wouldn't have qualified in D2 per rankings)... so that's completely screwy.... LC qualified in D2, but they got bumped out because of the D1s that got bumped down... even though LC were ranked higher than the ones that bumped them out.

All they have to do is do what they used to do. Rank all of D1-4 together, then split them by enrollment.

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

SFL teams in D2, shouldn't get a seeding bias.

curious, which teams should be ranked above GB

ROcklin, one could argue jesuit... but that could've gone either way

 

[ESPN Ken]

The bottom line is no matter the criteria used by the Section, someone isn’t going to be happy and feel like they got screwed. It’s no different than the college football playoff selections or the 68 team field for March Madness.