Final Clovis West 57 Centennial 42
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Clovis can't be No. 1 because they lost to Mitty. Mitty can't be No. 1 because they lost to Grandview. Grandview has yet to make an outside shot in this tournament, and won on an offensive rebound at the buzzer tonight. And they play n one after this event.
Riverdale could have come but didn't.
It will be an interesting weekend, and if Grandview wins the TOC, they will have a strong case.
Riverdale could have come but didn't.
It will be an interesting weekend, and if Grandview wins the TOC, they will have a strong case.
I put Clovis West number 1 on my ranking system. Because when you lose to the second ranked team by1 point in overtime you really didn't lose in my book. Also Clovis then goes on to win the Nike TOC Joe Smith championship while Paul v1 is no where in the mix to be challenged. Just like I had SMS ending the season number 1 on my list a couple years ago when they finished the season upsetting MD in the California Open Championship. Even though the unchallenged easier schedule playing team out of Phili was undefeated.
That is why I carry the official ranking system. Not a computer or un objective ranking committee. We are free to come to our own conclusions. At least while it is still legal to think for ourselves.
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I agree with that. Because you need to play Clovis West more than once to better your chances of beating them. I know what I would do, but that adjustment still might not work. Sometimes it comes down to how the ball bounces and how the game flows. If you can't find a way to disrupt what Clovis West likes to do it's an uphill battle. And you better not come in playing less than your best.
Interestingly enough, teams that have familiarity have played them close. Long Beach Poly OT loss, St Marys very close game and Mitty was actually up by 12 with four min left in the game and won in OT. I would assume a team as talented and experienced as Centennial will be prepared. It should make for a great game to watch
But I would still have to put my money on Clovis West coming out on top. They are for real, not over hyped, or pretenders. But hey, that's why they play the game. The victory is never official on paper. Clovis West is no different than any other good team. They can't just show up and win. They will have to go out and win the game on the court that evening.
You know the best thing about it is there really are 4-5 teams in Cali that are legitimate top 10 in the nation. The best thing about these teams getting familiar with one another will dictate very good basketball when they ultimately meet. That TOC tourney specifically the Joe Smith division is a grueling four days of nonstop action in which teams are driven to play extremely hard from tipoff to final buzzer. Those teams definitely need a few days off to recover.
Each one of those teams has made themselves even better than they were before
Each one of those teams has made themselves even better than they were before
Clovis West will have a case for No. 1 if it wins out ... as will Paul VI.
Here's one difference: Paul VI has, by most accounts, six Power 5 players plus a couple more D1s. As good as Clovis West is, the talent level doesn't quite match up.
Still, it's unfortunate Paul VI did not choose a tougher post-Christmas tournament, but remember, St. John's College -- which beat Mitty by 17 -- is in Paul VI's league, as are Our Lady of Good Counsel and Elizabeth Seton, so it's not exactly a cakewalk for PVI.
Here's one difference: Paul VI has, by most accounts, six Power 5 players plus a couple more D1s. As good as Clovis West is, the talent level doesn't quite match up.
Still, it's unfortunate Paul VI did not choose a tougher post-Christmas tournament, but remember, St. John's College -- which beat Mitty by 17 -- is in Paul VI's league, as are Our Lady of Good Counsel and Elizabeth Seton, so it's not exactly a cakewalk for PVI.
That's what separates good teams, the ability to beat a team that is better than you are on paper. In my book when a player or a team plays well beating teams they should beat I ignore that fact. But the better teams and better coaches aim higher than others do. Just as I said starting the season out when many were so in love with Mitty on paper. I said the fear factor was not there so at least teams wouldn't go into the game defeated before tip off. In my book you are not getting better because you beat a team you should have beaten in the first place by 20 the first time you played them and then 40 later down the road. In my book you get better by playing with and against better and holding your own or coming out on top.You get better by gradually improving and putting yourself in the position to beat a team that is better than you are on paper. Clovis West based on what they have done thus far is #1 in my book. We can re-evaluate things at the end of the season as we should.
I haven't seen Paul v1 play. Too bad they didn't show up to play with the big dogs. Based on that I drop them from #1 to about #3. Again I have my own ranking system and give it more power than I do a computer or non objective ranking committee.
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Good for them. Then all they have to do is keep winning and hope someone knocks Clovis West out of the top spot. But based on all the top teams body of work recently I see Mitty, Paul v1, Centennial, Riverdale of Tn, taking a slight dip in my ranking system. I see Clovis West as the #1 team in the nation. I see teams like Grandview, SMS, Mesquite, Bishop Odowd, Sac and others who played well at the Nike TOC regardless of bracket making positive strides.
Thanks for sharing your opinion. That is why there are different opinion polls.
Since it was an opinion that put them at number 1 in the first place, I see it fair for an opinion to drop them at this point from 1 to 3. Just explain to me the justification used to put Paul Vl #1 before truly testing them to see if they deserved to be #1? I am not doubting they may be a good team and not punishing them for not being able to participate in the Nike TOC. I am questioning the justification for ranking teams based on paper and not actual accomplishments.
It was also an opinion that had Mitty at #2. They were not able to win the Nike TOC.But at least they tested themselves with the best. My opinion is backed up by body of work not based on speculating on paper. Since there is no national playoff system and the Nike TOC is the best format used to determine things I have to credit Clovis West for what they were able to accomplish. It is much harder to (travel and play on the road) win a 4 game in four days Nike TOC Joe Smith level Championship playing the best teams in the country with all eyes watching than getting up for a single tough game once in a while. (possibly also getting the home cooking advantage as well).
I have not seen Paul vl play. They may be a really good team? Too bad there is no format other than the Nike TOC that is used as a national playoff system.This is not my final national ranking opinion poll. I will give them the ability to prove themselves and possibly regain the number 1 spot depending on what their actual body of work presents stacked up to the accomplishments that other top ranked teams like Clovis West, Miami CD, Grandview, and Riverdale of TN, ect.... end up doing the rest of the regular season and in the post season.
But on "my" opinion poll, I put Clovis West (the most tested and proven team) at #1 at this point in the season.
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But Clovis West has a loss -- that is about as objective as you can get. After all, the scoreboard doesn't lie.
Paul VI does not have a loss, and though that is far from the only qualification (Destrehan out of Louisiana doesn't have a loss either, for example), when you're comparing elite teams, that has to count for something.
And if you're going to take a one-loss team, traditional Texas power Duncanville would have to be in the mix.
If you're looking at unbeatens, how about Hamilton Heights? I don't think you can say that the only criterion for a No. 1 ranking is participation in the Nike TOC. It's a big factor, granted, but far from the only one.
Paul VI does not have a loss, and though that is far from the only qualification (Destrehan out of Louisiana doesn't have a loss either, for example), when you're comparing elite teams, that has to count for something.
And if you're going to take a one-loss team, traditional Texas power Duncanville would have to be in the mix.
If you're looking at unbeatens, how about Hamilton Heights? I don't think you can say that the only criterion for a No. 1 ranking is participation in the Nike TOC. It's a big factor, granted, but far from the only one.
Week to week rankings will fluctuate. If a team is truly #1 it will bear out over the long season and in to their final post season performance. That body of work will give the indication cone March. Many factors still to play out. The Nike TOC is a great national spotlight and showed some great basketball. The challenge now is for teams to keep up that level of play or in some cases improve their play. It was great to see between the Iolani and Nike tournaments California showed some top quality teams.
Thanks Clay for sharing your opinion !
( a 1 point loss to the #2 team in overtime in Hawaii then rebounding in Arizona to win the TOC Championship) And beating a like opponent Centennial by 15 at the neutral court when Paul was at home (home cooking) and won by 7 and never showed up to TOC? That's how objective you can get.
Good points bringing Hamilton Heights,Destrehan, and Duncanville into the mix. I haven't seen any of them play.
Again your intelligent enough to acknowledge the fact that the polls are not always correct (mine included) right? And that there are different National Ranking polls correct?
You may also agree with me that we have seen many times teams that have been wildcard teams who upset teams with better records in all levels of competition in all sports from the NBA, NFL, College,High School etc.... So records don't always determine best who is best.
Again this is just "my" opinion poll. Is it not fair that I can express an opinion that may or may not be popular just because I typically enjoy challenging the dictatorship of the establishment and so call higher authority which is run by humans who are not always right? Smile.
Actually, I will share with you my top 5 (at this point which is subject to change as games are played) which you may not agree with. But I based it on what they have all done up to this point. Not saying that I'm right, but these teams could argue their case based on their body of work stacked up against the other top 5.
1. Clovis West(only loss to #2 in overtime by 1 point rebounded by winning the TOC)
2.Miami CD (only loss is to #1 Clovis West in the TOC championship game)
3.Grandview( upset #2 only loss in TOC to new #2 MCD), Riverdale of TN, Paul Vl(Both not challenged at TOC could argue they deserve to be #1).
As you can see I pretty much have 3 teams tied at the third spot based on (my opinion and limited knowledge) and the challenge and what they have accomplished to this point.
I am not saying that the two teams that are ranked ahead of the 3 that are tied are better or that they would even definitely beat the lower ranked teams if they played head to head. What I am saying is based how the teams have been challenged and have responded to this point this is where I personally rank them at this point.
I think it is fair to say any top 20 team in the nation could upset or beat a higher ranked team.
And it's fair to say all the top 20 teams and even many others are good teams and some not on the radar are getting better as we speak.
Once again Clay I respect yours and every other opinion even if I don't always agree with them because I have yet to find anyone who was always right, myself included. But I like to share my opinion because it's usually as society calls it.... "an out of the box opinion." Smile.
Time will be the best determining factor as each team may lose between now and the post season.
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Clay,
Since there is no national end of the season playoff system, what other than the Nike TOC is best for determining which teams are the top in the nation? We can't just speculate or crown teams championships in theory based on looking great on paper.
I know the winner of the California Open, and other big cities like Chicago, Texas, New York, Phili,Ga, TN,etc post season State Championship has to also be considered too. Not just wins and losses only. Or being undefeated and slightly challenged. Some state championships are easier to win than others. Strength of schedule, travel, and strength of tournament should be considered. At least that way you challenge so call #1 teams a bit more and don't just base it on wins and losses, or how a team looks on paper which doesn't take into account strength of schedule, how they'll play when tested, where you traveled, or how you end a season IMO. Some are strong at the start of a season others peak more at the end. So I think it's fair to allow a few changes in ranking based on how active and how successful or not teams are at any given time.
It is far easier to win when you don't have to travel and don't play 4 tough games with all eyes watching in four days. As opposed to playing a single tough game at home or near by with home cooking, weeks of preparation and/ or rest between the games.
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Clovis West already showed up for the rematch at the TOC. If they get the rematch now I'd prefer to separate them and if they are both good enough(which they are but there are no guarantees) then they can settle it all at the California Open State Championship. That would also allow Norcal teams a break from having to defeat them both, SMS, other loaded Norcal teams, and then the Socal winner.Just think about it..... Clovis West, Odowd, Sac, and SMS all Norcal teams played well at the TOC. So Norcal doesn't need to add Clovis West into a already very competitive Norcal power mix IMO.
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For that matter yes indeed. I'd like to see them play in a best of 7 playoff tournament. It's always entertaining to watch high level very well coached talented competition.
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I've always said national high school rankings are like throwing darts at a wall. You really don't know because many of the "best" teams don't play each other and don't (or can't) travel. Matchups are also key, as in any sport, so Team A might beat Team B but struggle with Team C, and so on.
And different people use different criteria. Dan Olson of ESPN is more focused on talent than results, which is certainly just as legitimate as the MaxPreps' emphasis on results.
When it comes right down to it, national, state or regional rankings are pretty much just for fun ... even at the college level. There's no way to really know who's better, short of a best-of-five or best-of-seven series that would mitigate a lot of the luck involved in a single game's outcome.
And different people use different criteria. Dan Olson of ESPN is more focused on talent than results, which is certainly just as legitimate as the MaxPreps' emphasis on results.
When it comes right down to it, national, state or regional rankings are pretty much just for fun ... even at the college level. There's no way to really know who's better, short of a best-of-five or best-of-seven series that would mitigate a lot of the luck involved in a single game's outcome.
One of the really interesting things about this year will be how the new CIF committee on girls' basketball approaches its rankings. It's possible, though I hope not likely, that the Southern Section and SoCal representatives will try to do their best to get a SoCal team an Open title -- and thus put Clovis West in the NorCal playoffs.
Logic would suggest that Clovis West and Mitty, the top two teams in the state at this point, be separated until the Open championship, but there may be other factors. For example, let's say there are nine SoCal teams that belong in the Open and seven from the North. In that case, there would be some logic in moving Clovis West North to get all the deserving teams in the Open.
We won't know until the Sunday night before the regionals begin ...
Logic would suggest that Clovis West and Mitty, the top two teams in the state at this point, be separated until the Open championship, but there may be other factors. For example, let's say there are nine SoCal teams that belong in the Open and seven from the North. In that case, there would be some logic in moving Clovis West North to get all the deserving teams in the Open.
We won't know until the Sunday night before the regionals begin ...
That's all I've been expressing all along. It is also why I challenged the severely flawed ranking system both ESPN and Max Preps are using IMO. Because to give credit to teams strictly for the untested talent advantage they have doesn't take into account how the talent plays collectively as a team under adverse circumstances. So I say there needs to be more willingness to allow fluctuation in the rankings week in and week out. And teams that are more tested and true should not be punished because of another team's in ability to travel and/or play in the toughest tournaments in the nation. Clovis West based on their body of work have earned the number 1 ranking IMO. They are the most tested team IMO.
Perhaps there should be two sets of national ranking categories? Or consider the source of the information you are receiving before automatically validating it the best and only source.
Here are the possible two ranking categories........
1.The best team in the nation on paper as per ESPN and Max Preps. (Speculation)
2. The best and most tested and proven overall team in the nation. (For the teams that travel and/or play the best under the toughest circumstances).(Strength of schedule)
We may even want to add a third category......
3. Best undefeated team. (for the teams that can't travel and/or play under the toughest circumstances against other top ranked teams in the nation.(untested)
I agree outside of an end of the season national playoff where top teams can play head to head the rankings are never gonna be 100 % accurate. That is why the Nike TOC is perhaps the best platform along with taking into account how teams end up in their state championships. And which state had the toughest teams in them. Right or wrong that is my take on it.
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If we used the logic that either the south or the north had more teams than the other that were strong enough to be in the Open that would be shifting teams from each region in and out of the Open on an annual basis and cause a need for certain teams to travel each post season which doesn't seem practical.
Not sure the committee should make it tougher for Norcal teams when the population/ talent pool is far larger in Southern California. But power is often used anyway those in power see fit. So those that have less power just have to use other means to build character, adjust, and compensate for it.
The only justification to move CW to Norcal is perhaps Clovis is an equal distance from Norcal and Socal. But I am unaware that CW has ever been asked to participate in Norcal Open.
If not.... why would they be asked in the season where they have perhaps their best team to date? And add the fact that Norcal with Mitty, SMS, and a few other strong teams appear to already be stronger this season than the elite Southern California teams.
It's just basketball not a big deal.......
I guess we'll have to see what those in power decide to do. Enjoy the power while you have it. Especially if it makes you feel better about yourselves.
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So that would mean five SoCal teams that are not in the Southern Section belong in the Open? Any thoughts on who those five teams might be? Sorry, sounds more like power politics to me.
If I have the rule right, the Central Section teams (divisions) pulled up for football are pre-determined prior to the season. That is more logical than what is happening this year. It would be something just skimmed over if Clovis West didn't have this kind of team.
True.
However if there was a bit of consistency and better indicators of what will happen each year and reasons why, it would allow for better preparation for teams that need to possibly travel, book reservations, ask for work time off etc. Not to mention all teams being able to better understand who they will possibly match up with in advance to prepare for them. Otherwise it just appears to be an ego power trip that a few on the CIF use to help bring excitement to a life that might otherwise be a bit more boring than they'd like it to be.
Hopefully the kids all continue to thrive and stay healthy& happy regardless to the strings adults pull they have no control over. May all the teams from Southern California to Northern California and all connected to them have a happy and blessed New Year.
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