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Norcal Small Schools Open Division

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1tunz1

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Sep 10, 2006
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Getting bored at first round playoff games so thought I'd look ahead to regionals small school open division.
The rules are simple enough. Teams must win a section title and have enrollment of 1200 or less.

Seems Central Catholic is the obvious first choice should they win SJS D3 section. They will have to get through Oakdale again (assuming both make it thru intermediate rounds), which could go either way based on their previous matchup.

Their opponent choice is not as clear. If Palma of Salinas comes out as Champion of one of the CCS Open divisions, they have a good argument. But the winner of NCS D4 has an equal, if not slightly better claim, as the two favorites, Marin Catholic and Cardinal Newman are headed for a presumable showdown in the Finals.

I'm not familiar with other smaller schools in the SJS, so you SJS guys/gals please fill us in.

McClymonds will most likely win OAK and have a hat in the ring, and so might Sacred heart Prep (CCS) depending if they can win a section Championship.

If CC wins SJS D3 they're in, which would leave a choice between a Palma and NCS D4 Champion as their opponent. Could be a 50/50 toss up. If Oakdale wins SJS D3, then it would seem likely a Palma vs. NCS D4 Champion. If CC and Palma both lose the section Final, then NCS D4 is in, and their choice of opponent really opens up, but could end up being McClymonds. I don't mean to slight the northern Section teams. I'm just ignorant of who's up there and meets the criteria, so Northern fans please chime in. And are there any teams in Central Section who could qualify?
 
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This year in the North Section D3 it is wide open. The 4 teams left are the 4 top seeds.#4 seed Sutter 7-4 ( losses to Palma, Ripon, Bear River and Orland) travels to #1 seed Lassen 7-4. While West Valley 8-3 travels to 10-1 Orland. It is of my opinion that these 4 teams are evenly matched although Orland has already beaten Sutter and Lassen has already beaten West Valley. Should be 2 great games this week in the North Section.
 
The NCS D-IV winner would have a better case than Palma? Based on what?
 
Palma has a great shot IF they win CCS D3 Open and Central Catholic loses. They would only have one loss and a win over a Riordan (assuming they meet) would be big if also Bells win CCS D1 Open and St Francis (their only loss) wins D2. May not require wins by Bells or SF, but would help. The NCS teams would have two losses and their wins wouldn't be significantly if at all better than a Palma. Quality of wins are weighted and not losing to stronger teams (like Newman loss to Clayton Valley,ect.). They all have a case, but given pat history on how they pick pobably going to team with less loses. Consume Oaks winning SJS D1 is very low probability (over an Elk Grove and/or Folsom), but would help Marin Catholic if they win SJS D1.. In any event, the CCS versus NCS teams is very close. Palma might get it due to would be first time in bowl as well given a better record and SOS not materially if at all different. A undefeated Central Catholic would almost certainly be chosen. Marin Catholic probably would have a better shot than Newman. An undefeated McClymonds would get consideration but probably strength of schedule would work against the above, but wouldn't be surprised if they were chosen if Central Catholic doesn't win a title. An Orland champion would receive consideration as well, but SOS not to their advantage.
 
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Cal 14 said:
The NCS D-IV winner would have a better case than Palma? Based on what?
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I didn't know the ccs open seedings when I wrote that and was unaware Riordan and Palma would be in the same bracket. If Palma wins out they may have a stronger argument. In this case, though, one must be careful what they wish for, with a strong Central Catholic on the other end. I would love to see a Palma/CN rematch though. It's too bad Newman had to play Clayton Valley without Brookshire, that loss looks not good on paper (although CV is ranked 10th in State on calhi). And the failed 2 point try for the win against St. Mary's was a heartbreaker. Not sure why Norcal thinks MC would have a better chance than Newman, other than one less loss. Once again it looks like schedule strength takes a backseat to overall record. At any rate, we'll get to see some good games in the next few weeks. What's with the seedings in CCS Open 3? After all the changes made by the section they pit the two best teams in round two? Why? I thought teams had to be Champion or runnerups to qualify for regionals, and now ccs is eliminating a good team just by seedings. Seems to compromise the efforts to get the best teams qualified.
 
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Riordan originally got seeded as the #6 seed. There are 4 teams in the PAL Bay league so they had to switch around SHP and Riordan seed to avoid round 1 matchups with league opponents. SHP was the #5 seed and were set to face #4 seed Burlingame.
 
1tunz1 said:
I didn't know the ccs open seedings when I wrote that and was unaware Riordan and Palma would be in the same bracket. If Palma wins out they may have a stronger argument. In this case, though, one must be careful what they wish for, with a strong Central Catholic on the other end. I would love to see a Palma/CN rematch though. It's too bad Newman had to play Clayton Valley without Brookshire, that loss looks not good on paper (although CV is ranked 10th in State on calhi). And the failed 2 point try for the win against St. Mary's was a heartbreaker. Not sure why Norcal thinks MC would have a better chance than Newman, other than one less loss. Once again it looks like schedule strength takes a backseat to overall record. At any rate, we'll get to see some good games in the next few weeks. What's with the seedings in CCS Open 3? After all the changes made by the section they pit the two best teams in round two? Why? I thought teams had to be Champion or runnerups to qualify for regionals, and now ccs is eliminating a good team just by seedings. Seems to compromise the efforts to get the best teams qualified.
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The CCS seeding are done by the playoff point system. There's no subjectivity at all. Besides, Monte Vista Christian really has made a case for themselves as the 2 seed with wins over Salinas and Hollister. Riordan beat Serra, but lost all of the other critical games they played.
 
Yeah that St Mary's loss for Newman really hurts. Would have been a solid win against a tough D1 opponent. I'm sorry but with Brookshire that Clayton Valley game would have been an actual game. It was only 14-0 at half. Newman just doesn't have a real good win on there schedule this year like in years past. (Rancho is a solid league win). But think about this..... St Mary's and CVC are a combined 19-3 and CVC has a 1 pt loss to one of the best teams in the state. (Folsom)

I definitely see a Newman Vs MC collision for NCS. At some point in all of this it gets out of your hands and becomes somewhat political. For god sake they have ND as #4 seed in BCS playoffs.
 
Cal 14 said:
The CCS seeding are done by the playoff point system. There's no subjectivity at all. Besides, Monte Vista Christian really has made a case for themselves as the 2 seed with wins over Salinas and Hollister. Riordan beat Serra, but lost all of the other critical games they played.
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Postseason is quite simple: Win! And go on...
 
I have a question for some of the other posters not so much related to this year but seams interesting to me. Enterprise of the NS has an enrollment usually right about 1200, happens to be 1228 this year, but can very easily be under 1200 on any given year. Now if it were a year that they were under 1200 and lets say went undefeated or one loss with their schedule would they be a thought for the small school open? Just interesting to me due to the fact that they play in the top division in the NS. Thoughts?
 
FAR_NORTHERN said:
I have a question for some of the other posters not so much related to this year but seams interesting to me. Enterprise of the NS has an enrollment usually right about 1200, happens to be 1228 this year, but can very easily be under 1200 on any given year. Now if it were a year that they were under 1200 and lets say went undefeated or one loss with their schedule would they be a thought for the small school open? Just interesting to me due to the fact that they play in the top division in the NS. Thoughts?
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They would be considered for small school open. They would meet the enrollment criteria. If Enterprise wins the section Championship they would be ranked by committee with other qualifiers, with the top two teams playing in Open Regional game. Enterprise should schedule a preleague game with one of the other perennial small school teams, like CN/MC/CC/Palma/SHP.
 
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FAR_NORTHERN said:
I have a question for some of the other posters not so much related to this year but seams interesting to me. Enterprise of the NS has an enrollment usually right about 1200, happens to be 1228 this year, but can very easily be under 1200 on any given year. Now if it were a year that they were under 1200 and lets say went undefeated or one loss with their schedule would they be a thought for the small school open? Just interesting to me due to the fact that they play in the top division in the NS. Thoughts?
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As 1tunz1 pointed out, yes, they'd absolutely be on the board for the Small School Open. One thing that all contenders for this game would need, though, is a signature win (e.g., Palma over Riordan and possibly giving Monte Vista Christian their only two losses might count, Central Catholic over St. Mary's). The NS teams have certainly stepped it up when it comes to scheduling teams from other sections, but it's also hard to predict exactly when your team is going to be really solid sometimes. If Enterprise and Sutter keep putting together good schedules and winning tough games, there's no reason they wouldn't get good consideration. Keep in mind that both of these teams already have NorCal regional and/or state game experience, so I do think the CIF does recognize one of those teams can very well be selected.
 
I agree, and obviously Sutter and EHS were not what they had been this season. And I agree those would be some great match ups for Enterprise and serve them better than playing larger enrollment schools from the SJS imo as they have in the past. EHS is just kind of in a funky position as they are not really a small school and they definitely are not a big school either. I like every oos game Enterprise has played to date with the exclusion of Eureka. But games I would love to see are MC, Cardial Newman, CC, Campolindo, Palma, SHP and St. Francis. But would still like to see them take on some of the bigger schools as they have such as Vacaville, Antelope, and then maybe Rocklin, CVC, and I have always thought Del Oro would be awesome, some history between the two schools in hoops.
 
Cal 14 said:
The CCS seeding are done by the playoff point system. There's no subjectivity at all. Besides, Monte Vista Christian really has made a case for themselves as the 2 seed with wins over Salinas and Hollister. Riordan beat Serra, but lost all of the other critical games they played.
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"There's no subjectivity at all" I think that is very debatable and I would disagree with that statement. When you set up a system where WCAL is considered equivalent to PAL-Bay, MBL, etc, then you have introduced subjectivity. That is why the CCS Point system does not match up to what I do consider objective, the CalPreps ratings.
 
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joebl said:
"There's no subjectivity at all" I think that is very debatable and I would disagree with that statement. When you set up a system where WCAL is considered equivalent to PAL-Bay, MBL, etc, then you have introduced subjectivity. That is why the CCS Point system does not match up to what I do consider objective, the CalPreps ratings.
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The existence of the WCAL itself proves you correct joebl.
 
joebl said:
"There's no subjectivity at all" I think that is very debatable and I would disagree with that statement. When you set up a system where WCAL is considered equivalent to PAL-Bay, MBL, etc, then you have introduced subjectivity. That is why the CCS Point system does not match up to what I do consider objective, the CalPreps ratings.
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While I do not disagree at all about the Calpreps system being more objective, in a real-world sense, you have to keep in mind that it utilizes one very key component that the CIF absolutely rejects... margin of victory. Ned Freeman briefly setup a different set of ratings without MoV in the early years, but every programmer out there will tell you that they don't feel its anywhere near as accurate.

Either way, you have to draw a line somewhere. In either case, the WCAL teams are not hurting for playoff participants and many of those teams have good opportunities to advance to the regional games with the current setup.
 
Cal 14 said:
No. CCS D-IV and D-V winners will not advance.
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That's unfortunate when two teams from each open division will advance, win or lose. Is the CCS the only section to have non-section winners advance to the regional games and have some section winners stay home? That's a raw deal even if the open teams are better.
 
mshNASTY said:
That's unfortunate when two teams from each open division will advance, win or lose. Is the CCS the only section to have non-section winners advance to the regional games and have some section winners stay home? That's a raw deal even if the open teams are better.
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Well, there's a reason why this setup was put in place. Each team from a B or C league (except for two of the leagues) has an opportunity to try to get into an A league in the offseason. If they choose not to do that, then they are accepting that they are not at a state level. The teams from the two leagues not in this scenario have an option to petition into the Open playoffs if they win their league (none did so this year).

So, as you see, every team in the section has the opportunity to get into an Open Division (which is why it's called an Open Division), but many have chosen not to do so. Their reasons may be many. Among the chief ones is so that they don't have to face WCAL teams anymore. Instead, they are choosing the easier path. It's just that easier path is not rewarded as highly as the more difficult path.
 
Cal 14 said:
Well, there's a reason why this setup was put in place. Each team from a B or C league (except for two of the leagues) has an opportunity to try to get into an A league in the offseason. If they choose not to do that, then they are accepting that they are not at a state level. The teams from the two leagues not in this scenario have an option to petition into the Open playoffs if they win their league (none did so this year).

So, as you see, every team in the section has the opportunity to get into an Open Division (which is why it's called an Open Division), but many have chosen not to do so. Their reasons may be many. Among the chief ones is so that they don't have to face WCAL teams anymore. Instead, they are choosing the easier path. It's just that easier path is not rewarded as highly as the more difficult path.
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All very interesting, thanks for the inside info. I would think the easy path would be being 2 of 8 teams in a bracket to qualify for regionals regardless if you won or not.
 
mshNASTY said:
All very interesting, thanks for the inside info. I would think the easy path would be being 2 of 8 teams in a bracket to qualify for regionals regardless if you won or not.
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Not when you must first finish high in a tougher league/division, then go through a tougher playoff bracket. I don't believe any of the teams currently in CCS D-IV or V could make it to the finals in any of D-I, D-II, or D-III. I'm not sure any would make it past the first round.

Let's put this in perspective... the CCS D-IV #1 seed, Hillsdale, lost one game all year. That was to Saratoga, who took 5th in the DAL and didn't even make the Open playoffs.
 
Cal 14 said:
Not when you must first finish high in a tougher league/division, then go through a tougher playoff bracket. I don't believe any of the teams currently in CCS D-IV or V could make it to the finals in any of D-I, D-II, or D-III. I'm not sure any would make it past the first round.
Let's put this in perspective... the CCS D-IV #1 seed, Hillsdale, lost one game all year. That was to Saratoga, who took 5th in the DAL and didn't even make the Open playoffs.
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Great point Cal14. If you look at Riordan, they won convincingly over three league champions in SHP, M-A and St.Mary's Berkeley. Their three losses were games that weren't decided until late in the game and came to fellow WCAL teams (with larger enrollments) ranked directly above them in CCS and NorCal respectively.
 
jordan24 said:
Great point Cal14. If you look at Riordan, they won convincingly over three league champions in SHP, M-A and St.Mary's Berkeley. Their three losses were games that weren't decided until late in the game and came to fellow WCAL teams (with larger enrollments) ranked directly above them in CCS and NorCal respectively.
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In the old system, Riordan would have ripped some poor B-league team in the first (and maybe second) round(s) before finally meeting someone decent (maybe).
 
Sutter is still alive this season for the section title so not much can be said yet. However I can tell you that Sutter will be very good again and a favorite starting next season. They open with Palma and have Bear River, Ripon and decided after all the travel from this season to stay closer to home and play a much improved Marysville team and Dixon. They are starting 2 sophs and 5 Jrs on offense and 1 soph and 7 Jrs on defense this season. The JV team this season went 10-0, gave up 19 points total with NO rushing TDs allowed all season, 6 shut outs on defense and scored 370 points on offense. They played EC (shutout) home, Palma (shutout), Capital Christian (6pts Kick return), Ripon(7pts) and Bear River(12pts) all on the road for their pre season. The only points scored against them in 5 league games was 1 kick off return. The varsity will be loaded next season. Even though Sutter platoons there will still be players that have started their whole lives finding it hard to get playing time. Just giving everyone a glimpse of Sutter's future.
 
farmair3 said:
Sutter is still alive this season for the section title so not much can be said yet. However I can tell you that Sutter will be very good again and a favorite starting next season. They open with Palma and have Bear River, Ripon and decided after all the travel from this season to stay closer to home and play a much improved Marysville team and Dixon. They are starting 2 sophs and 5 Jrs on offense and 1 soph and 7 Jrs on defense this season. The JV team this season went 10-0, gave up 19 points total with NO rushing TDs allowed all season, 6 shut outs on defense and scored 370 points on offense. They played EC (shutout) home, Palma (shutout), Capital Christian (6pts Kick return), Ripon(7pts) and Bear River(12pts) all on the road for their pre season. The only points scored against them in 5 league games was 1 kick off return. The varsity will be loaded next season. Even though Sutter platoons there will still be players that have started their whole lives finding it hard to get playing time. Just giving everyone a glimpse of Sutter's future.
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Sounds like a very promising team.
 
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I defintely did not mean it as Sutter being bad this year or Enterprise for that matter, they honestly could have made a run at the d2, Just in terms of past vs present both schools are not up to their usual level of play. Still believe that Enterprise Sutter is a game that needs to be played year in year out. Enterprise should be better next season, they will have a soph qb but as a freshmen he was the best player on the field in every jv game I saw them play he is a very talented and promising player, but still growing pains will be there. EHS is probly 2 years away from a really high level again.
 
NorCalSportsFan said:
Palma has a great shot IF they win CCS D3 Open and Central Catholic loses. They would only have one loss and a win over a Riordan (assuming they meet) would be big if also Bells win CCS D1 Open and St Francis (their only loss) wins D2. May not require wins by Bells or SF, but would help. The NCS teams would have two losses and their wins wouldn't be significantly if at all better than a Palma. Quality of wins are weighted and not losing to stronger teams (like Newman loss to Clayton Valley,ect.). They all have a case, but given pat history on how they pick pobably going to team with less loses. Consume Oaks winning SJS D1 is very low probability (over an Elk Grove and/or Folsom), but would help Marin Catholic if they win SJS D1.. In any event, the CCS versus NCS teams is very close. Palma might get it due to would be first time in bowl as well given a better record and SOS not materially if at all different. A undefeated Central Catholic would almost certainly be chosen. Marin Catholic probably would have a better shot than Newman. An undefeated McClymonds would get consideration but probably strength of schedule would work against the above, but wouldn't be surprised if they were chosen if Central Catholic doesn't win a title. An Orland champion would receive consideration as well, but SOS not to their advantage.
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I read that Newman had their QB out vs Clayton and played them tough for a few quarters, and Marin Catholic in their loss had QB an inured hamstring going into that game. I believe CN was a 2 TD game in 3rd Q, and MC was a 7 point game in the 4th. Palma was missing their RB for some time etc... They are all solid teams.
 
When Martinez is healthy for Palma they are a very good football team. Couple that with a QB that can throw they are very formidable for anyone. I believe that Marinez' size and what they ask him to do as far as the number of carries and where they run him between the tackles probably attribute to his health issues and games missed.
 
Newman just dismantled Justin Siena 47-6 and for those that don't know yes Brookshire was out for the Clayton Valley game and it was close for over 1/2 the game without him. If you haven't seen or heard of brookshire you will. Expect him to end up at a Pac12 type school or better.
Newman went for 2 pts against St Mary's of stockton to end the game and was held at the line on a controversial call. Lost by 1. That is the same St Mary's team that just took it to 11-0 Napa HS and plays Folsom next in SJS D1.

Newman can flat out play. Whether its D1 or D4 they can hang with anybody in Norcal. (DLS exception…. ha ha)
 
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farmair3 said:
When Martinez is healthy for Palma they are a very good football team. Couple that with a QB that can throw they are very formidable for anyone. I believe that Marinez' size and what they ask him to do as far as the number of carries and where they run him between the tackles probably attribute to his health issues and games missed.
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I had question whether Martinez would make it through the whole year since the end of last season. Although he is very strong and solid for his small stature, he still isnt as big as the Dline or LBs. He excels running between the tackles where he takes a beating. Then of course he had the hamstring injury at the end of track season. Once you hurt that hamstring one time there is a good chance you will tweak or re injure it again. In the 2 full games he has played this year he didnt go over 20 carries so I think Palma had in their mind that they were going to need him healthy towards the end of the year. That track injury he suffered was the real reason he missed so many games. The shoulder injury wasnt very serious. He missed one game due to the shoulder which I heard he could have played but they wanted to rest him since they werent playing a very good team that week. I heard he still didnt look 100% last night. On his 95 yard td run people were holding their breath hoping that hammy would hold up when he broke free.
 
larry legend33 said:
Newman just dismantled Justin Siena 47-6 and for those that don't know yes Brookshire was out for the Clayton Valley game and it was close for over 1/2 the game without him. If you haven't seen or heard of brookshire you will. Expect him to end up at a Pac12 type school or better.
Newman went for 2 pts against St Mary's of stockton to end the game and was held at the line on a controversial call. Lost by 1. That is the same St Mary's team that just took it to 11-0 Napa HS and plays Folsom next in SJS D1.

Newman can flat out play. Whether its D1 or D4 they can hang with anybody in Norcal. (DLS exception…. ha ha)
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There should be some people rethinking Newman's place in the rankings based on common opponent scores:
St. Mary's/ Napa 28-14
St. Mary's/CN 35-34
MC/JS 26-8 (4 quarters)
CN/JS 47-6 (2 quarters)
St. Mary's performance against Napa also shows how good Central Catholic must be this year too.
 
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MC415 said:
Yup CN looks like the team for the small school Open division
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Maybe. Still a lot of playoffs to go, and I'm sure MC will have their say in the process. Palma, or other small school from CCS D3 will be in the discussion.
 
Central Catholic will represent the north for Small School Open Division, unless there is an upset in SJS D3, per Mark Tennis. I have to agree.

Central Catholic is very good this year. St. Mary's had the halftime lead in their game vs CC, but without SM's starting QB Jake Dunniway, with all the bad handling of the snaps by SM backup, it could have been a different game. Still, CC is very good. SM is very young and have vastly improved, especially on defense with the maturity of their players/team. CC deserves the small school open IMHO.
 
bulldogmgc said:
Central Catholic will represent the north for Small School Open Division, unless there is an upset in SJS D3, per Mark Tennis. I have to agree.

Central Catholic is very good this year. St. Mary's had the halftime lead in their game vs CC, but without SM's starting QB Jake Dunniway, with all the bad handling of the snaps by SM backup, it could have been a different game. Still, CC is very good. SM is very young and have vastly improved, especially on defense with the maturity of their players/team. CC deserves the small school open IMHO.
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Didn't realize Dunniway was out for that game. That's a big consideration. Congrats on a nice Rams win last night.
 
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Who has a chance to beat Central Catholic? I've always been a fan of that program. They play Placer next right? Both teams undefeated. Will they see Oakdale again down the road? Sounds like that would be only real obstacle. But from this vantage point CC looks to control their destiny whereas the other schools need a few things to happen.
 
An Oakdale upset of Central Catholic wouldn't be much of an upset. It's tough to defeat a team twice in a season and a good onecat that.
 
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