Uniform or not

[alwayslearning]

Scenario: Player A plays varsity her soph year and gets quality PT, part-time starter, and finds some success on the court. For whatever reason decides not to participate in anything team related after basketball season ends. Doesn't come to open gyms, summer league, pre-season conditioning, etc.
3 weeks before tryouts are to begin Player A contacts coach via email asking if there is any open gyms or anything significant she should attend leading up to tryouts. Meanwhile ALL her teammates put in work in the offseason TOGETHER. Player A's excuse was she was trying to decide whether she wanted to come back and play basketball, but now she has made the decision to come back. Player A's teammates are not happy that Player A didn't show up to anything in the off season and I'm sure the coach isn't happy about it either.

What do you do and expect as a parent of Player A and as a coach of Player A and as a teammate of Player A?

 

[ClayK]

I expect Player A to show up to open gyms, work hard and compete for a spot on varsity.

If she's one of the best 12, she's on varsity; if she's one of the best eight, she's in the rotation; if she's one of the best five, she starts.

The real world rewards production, and as Kyle Shanahan was quoted as saying Monday, working hard is fine, but you have to have talent too.

This isn't rec league any more -- there are no participation awards, and dad isn't coaching.

If the player isn't good enough, she doesn't play, no matter how good her attitude and how hard she tries. If the coach doesn't win enough, she gets fired.

 

[alwayslearning]

I expect Player A to show up to open gyms, work hard and compete for a spot on varsity.

If she's one of the best 12, she's on varsity; if she's one of the best eight, she's in the rotation; if she's one of the best five, she starts.

The real world rewards production, and as Kyle Shanahan was quoted as saying Monday, working hard is fine, but you have to have talent too.

This isn't rec league any more -- there are no participation awards, and dad isn't coaching.

If the player isn't good enough, she doesn't play, no matter how good her attitude and how hard she tries. If the coach doesn't win enough, she gets fired.

CLAY, maybe you missed the part about Player A not showing up to anything in the off season with no real good excuse for missing. Meanwhile her teammates all showed up and worked their tails off. Does it not set some sort of precedent if you allow a player to not show up to anything in off season yet still gets to make the team and play over those that did show up? Does team chemistry play into your decision on keeping Player A even if she is one of the best 8?

 

[Norcal_Fan]

We forget that open gym, spring/summer workouts are purely voluntary. so theoretically, a player could play basketball ONLY during the season and tryout in November. If I had to do it all over again, I'd totally let my kids be multi-sport athletes.

If this player is gonna help you win and she has a good attitude, I think you have to take her.

 

[mkbgdns]

agree w Norcal. the program is there to serve the kids, not the other way around. if a coach penalizes a player with the necessary skills for not following the coach's off-season expectations, he/she needs to go.

 

[observer22]

agree w Norcal. the program is there to serve the kids, not the other way around. if a coach penalizes a player with the necessary skills for not following the coach's off-season expectations, he/she needs to go.

I agree, but tell that to the De La Salle football team.

 

[alwayslearning]

Norcal Fan and mkbgdns are you both speaking from a parent perspective, coach's perspective or teammate perspective?

 

[CW Golden Eagles]

Clay is a coach and is accurate. You can't penalize a kid for missing voluntary workouts. If they are one of the best 12 at try outs, they make the team. If they are one of the best 5, with a good attitude and work ethic, and blend with the other 4, then they start. As a coach, I would be frustrated they weren't in attendance. I would assume teammates would as well. I would say it is probably fair to not make them a captain, but you can't penalize them by cutting them or it ultimately could cost the coach their job.

At the end of the day, the player that missed won't be as good as they could be. The team won't gel as well as they could. So if they are still top 5 and start, they beat the system. The kids that were there developed and have improved, but maybe they haven't improved past the level of that player?

There is no way you can cut the player unless there are attitude, effort, or defiance type of issues.

 

[alwayslearning]

Analogy: In the real world you have job responsibilities and obligations correct? You don't have to show up to fulfill your obligations to your job or your co-workers or boss, just like as a college student you don't have to show up to class if you don't feel like it, but there are natural consequences if you don't? If you don't fulfill your obligation and responsibilities to your job you would most likely get fired. If you don't show up to class unless you were very very smart or someone was doing your work for you, one would expect a bad grade?

If you are a returning varsity player shouldn't you feel a responsibility to your teammates and coaches who are putting in time together in the off season?

If you have some great excuse, maybe travelled abroad all summer, or played another sport, or sick family member, or work, etc etc. but even then don't you think you should show up every once in a while when you can or communicate with your teammates or coaches?

You shouldn't have to get cut for NEVER showing up to non-mandatory team workouts , I agree, but I would think if I was a parent and that was my kid, I would prepare them for getting cut.

I would make my kid at least communicate with their coaches.

They have injured teammates with torn ACL's still showing up to support their teammates and team.

Asking for potential long term team chemistry issues and program chemistry issues???

Why should anyone show up for non-mandatory workouts if they know they are going to get a jersey and still play?

 

[Norcal_Fan]

Analogy: In the real world you have job responsibilities and obligations correct? You don't have to show up to fulfill your obligations to your job or your co-workers or boss, just like as a college student you don't have to show up to class if you don't feel like it, but there are natural consequences if you don't? If you don't fulfill your obligation and responsibilities to your job you would most likely get fired. If you don't show up to class unless you were very very smart or someone was doing your work for you, one would expect a bad grade?

If you are a returning varsity player shouldn't you feel a responsibility to your teammates and coaches who are putting in time together in the off season?

If you have some great excuse, maybe travelled abroad all summer, or played another sport, or sick family member, or work, etc etc. but even then don't you think you should show up every once in a while when you can or communicate with your teammates or coaches?

You shouldn't have to get cut for NEVER showing up to non-mandatory team workouts , I agree, but I would think if I was a parent and that was my kid, I would prepare them for getting cut.

I would make my kid at least communicate with their coaches.

They have injured teammates with torn ACL's still showing up to support their teammates and team.

Asking for potential long term team chemistry issues and program chemistry issues???

Why should anyone show up for non-mandatory workouts if they know they are going to get a jersey and still play?

Not trying to be a prick, but these are teen age kids....real world adult scenarios don't really apply here in my opinion. My perspective is from a parent perspective...not a coach. If my daughter played volleyball in the fall, basketball in the winter, softball in the spring, she would not be able to go to any off season stuff. Why should she be penalized for playing another sport?

Someone mentioned DLS football team and my answer is that every program is unique. Some programs will allow players to do that and others won't. I think it goes everything we're trying to teach kids and on the real, they're kids only one time around. Why not let them do as many things as they can. IF she tried out, made it, then rode the pine, then that's okay too. But if she's good enough to be a 1-7 player, cutting her would only hurt the program as a whole.

 

[OnBall8]

doesn't matter what her excuse is, she was not required to be there. Whether she was building homes for the homeless, playing soccer, or sitting at home because she wanted a break from basketball is irrelevant. I do think that communication would/could have helped convey intention (and communicating is a valuable life skill), but isn't required.

In reference to the "real world" situation you put forth, you said both responsibilities and obligations, which infers that they are not voluntary. If someone can perform their job from home without ever being in the office and can do it well, why would he/she be fired? (assumed its not required to come in) And if a college student does not show up to class (assuming attendance is not part of the grade of course) and still passes all the tests, what would give the teacher the right to fail them?

If you are outcome based, whether as a coach, parent, or teammate then your only concern should be what she can do to help the team when the first day of tryouts comes around. If you are more concerned with the process (specifically only that teams process) then only take the kids that "gelled" and are buddies onto your team and have a fun year but don't worry about the outcome. For all anyone knows she could have been working on her skills alone the entire time.

 

[alwayslearning]

All valid points from everyone. Best of luck to all you coaches, parents of players, players or casual fans.

 

[ClayK]

One last thought: I used to play a lot of softball, and for a while, I played year-round, like a lot of guys. But I didn't do that for long, because I found that playing too much dulled my enthusiasm, and then I wasn't as good a player.

Everyone charges/recharges their batteries in different ways, and I always remember what the best AD I ever worked for, Bob Wilson at Campolindo, said: "I'd rather have the kids beating down the door to get into the gym than beating down the door to get out."

 

[alwayslearning]

Everyone is cut from a different cloth. Personally I would never not be loyal or committed to my team, teammates or coaches. If they were doing something together whether in season or out of season I would want to be there. I would expect my kids to do the same if they were committed to a team or multiple teams. Of course you can't be everywhere at once and of course kids need down time, family time, social time, but to me there is no excuse for not communicating or showing up at all especially when the rest of my team is.

Like Clay said, I was that player beating down the door to get into the gym and I wanted my teammates and coaches to want to play with me and coach me. I wanted to be a leader, a team captain, and lead by example. And truthfully I didn't want to play with anyone who didn't share that same passion as me. I played with players that didn't care about the team or care about being there, those were players I'd hope my coach would cut. Those same players I would consider my friends also. But I worked too hard to let someone who didn't work hard get in the way of our team goals.

If you care then you make time and you communicate especially if that is the expectation in the program you play in.

 

[CW Golden Eagles]

And you would hope EVERY student athlete shared that mindset you just expressed of banging down the doors to get in the gym and get better. There's a lot of layers to this and it comes down to culture/expectations. Did the coach and player communicate about where she was in the beginning? Did the coach and parent talk? Did the returners or captains have any discussions with the player?

If the players skills are lacking because they are rusty or got passed up, then perhaps they will get cut? Perhaps their role will not be what it was last season or would be if she was in the gym?

We have an expectation for our players to be there. But I had two players who were softball players and I never saw them in the summer. One went to Stanford for softball and the other to Iowa. Both on scholarship. When they came back, they were still good enough to start. They were never as good as they could have been. There were parents and players a little miffed that they weren't there while their daughter was training. So should I have penalized them?

Again...lots of layers and lots of scenarios. End of the day, there should be a culture in place where kids are committed to the program and one another and want to get better together. But when it is all said and done, when the first whistle blows, who can produce and who can't? If that player that skipped out is out of shape, has a bad attitude, isn't working hard...those are all reasons to evaluate whether or not to keep them. Unless you have a contract in place on mandatory team attendance and signed by the family, you'll have a very hard time defending cutting a player from missing summer workouts.

 

[ClayK]

Craig, of course, has it right.

Of course every coach wants every player to be as committed as she is, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. Sometimes a player is actually better for taking time off, because there is a huge mental component -- one of the layers.

Sometimes, of course, not showing up is detrimental to the girl and the program. I tell players "It's not that we're going to move you down the ladder because you're not there -- what will happen is others will pass you by. That's the risk ..."

Finally (again), cross training, doing other sports, doing nothing, can and most likely does lower the risk of injury. Playing basketball 10-12 months a year from age 12 on is an invitation to specific kinds of overuse injuries -- and not just knee injuries. Shin splints are a serious risk and a serious condition, among others.

As Craig said, lots of layers ...

 

[personalogic]

Craig, of course, has it right.

Of course every coach wants every player to be as committed as she is, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. Sometimes a player is actually better for taking time off, because there is a huge mental component -- one of the layers.

Sometimes, of course, not showing up is detrimental to the girl and the program. I tell players "It's not that we're going to move you down the ladder because you're not there -- what will happen is others will pass you by. That's the risk ..."

Finally (again), cross training, doing other sports, doing nothing, can and most likely does lower the risk of injury. Playing basketball 10-12 months a year from age 12 on is an invitation to specific kinds of overuse injuries -- and not just knee injuries. Shin splints are a serious risk and a serious condition, among others.

As Craig said, lots of layers ...

Scenario: Player A plays varsity her soph year and gets quality PT, part-time starter, and finds some success on the court. For whatever reason decides not to participate in anything team related after basketball season ends. Doesn't come to open gyms, summer league, pre-season conditioning, etc.
3 weeks before tryouts are to begin Player A contacts coach via email asking if there is any open gyms or anything significant she should attend leading up to tryouts. Meanwhile ALL her teammates put in work in the offseason TOGETHER. Player A's excuse was she was trying to decide whether she wanted to come back and play basketball, but now she has made the decision to come back. Player A's teammates are not happy that Player A didn't show up to anything in the off season and I'm sure the coach isn't happy about it either.

What do you do and expect as a parent of Player A and as a coach of Player A and as a teammate of Player A?

The exact scenario doesn't really matter. What it always comes down to is this.

As a coach approaching the end of tryouts you draw up a potential roster, top to bottom, filling your needs as best you can, taking everything into consideration. If there are two kids at the bottom of the list who are roughly equivalent, but one has shown more dedication, you pick the more dedicated player.

But if there's a clear difference in ability, or even just potential, I'm going to pick the higher ranked kid. Because that kid could be a difference maker in a close game, or when we get to playoffs. In other words, an 8th pick is always going to prevail over a 12th pick regardless of what they have or have not been doing for the last 8 months.

 

[dvez24]

going through a situation like that right now. A senior at that! She has been gone from the last game of the regular season til now. As much as I wanted her out there through off season workouts I understand its all voluntary. Much of you are saying for the player to reach out but I did the opposite. I reached out to her throughout this entire time to let her know that we care about her and want her around. She told me that she was going to just come back to tryouts. So at that time all i did was encourage her to do somthings at home while she is away.

Tryouts is a evaluation period. So if she comes in a busts her tale then we will all see it. if she comes in and under perform then we will see that too. Someone said its a risk that the kids take knowing that you could potentially not make them team. but I will say this. In life growing from a baby to a grown up, getting a degree in school, learning a trade or riding a bike.........everything in life has a PROCESS!!!!!!! And if you dont spend time in your craft to develop it or master it, it makes it hard for you to compete against the next player, employee or college grad trying to get that job or position you want. why do you think we create resumes???? or do credit checks?? people want to see how you are over a period of time or your history and that field.

So a parent cant blame a coach. a player cant blame a coach. whatever the reason she was off for that is left in the air. its what happens when you hit that wooded floor that is going to count. I believe players cut themselves.
Even if she is one of your most talented kids and could help you know matter what shape they are in and you know youre going to keep them and play them.....then As a caoch you should use that platform to show the rest of your team that has been putting in the work that that player will have to earn whatever place she was in back to prove she is really for the team and not selfish just because she knows the coach needs her to play. So if she was a 1-5 player then she has to prove to the team that she is still a 1-5 player. I would not just give her that spot knowing I got people busting the tales and sacrificing to become a 1-5 player or even a 6-8 player. You get what you earn and work for. whatever you want out of something you have to put just that much into to it.

 

[basketba11]

I am really enjoying this topic and the interesting comments coming from different sides, including high school coaches from top programs. Just wanted to add my thoughts from parent perspective- I am a parent of two high school girl players and also have a young son that is starting to play now.
As all of you know, the times have changed nowadays with these sports teams! More and more coaches have their teams playing and working out year round! There is no off-season any longer and there are no breaks. There is so much pressure put on parents and kids to keep playing and working out in the off-season to get better and better; the expectation I see is that once they are done with the high school season, they go right into their AAU season and continue playing in the spring and all summer. Many even play on both their AAU teams and also work out with their high school teams at the same time! Playing 2 or 3 sports nowadays is non-existent because if they aren't focusing on the 1 sport, then they are not perfecting their skills or dedicating themselves to become the best and compete at that 1 sport.
Remember as NorcalFan said, these are high school teenage girls. They have other interests and other activities in their life besides basketball year-round. I would say the majority of these girls playing high school ball will not be going on to play college basketball, and many of them do not want to. And School must come first! My daughters are both straight A students, which is much more important than playing year round. As much as I want them to practice and work out more to improve their skills to be able to compete with the best players, I have to remind myself that their priority is schoolwork.
Lastly, I also need to remind myself that it needs to stay FUN for them. With all the pressure, hard work, and time commitment asked of these student athletes to put into practices, games, tournaments, it needs to stay FUN for these kids. If it isn’t fun for them, why are they doing it? I want my girls to love this game for the rest of their lives, and when they have children of their own, to have them love the game also. The pressure and commitment nowadays can take the fun out of the game. Maybe a break during the offseason is needed for many of these kids to keep their passion for the game alive. On that note, I am looking forward to the upcoming high school season, good luck to all!

 

[Norcal_Fan]

Agree that a lot of these girls have other things going on besides hoops. That being said, those that work the hardest and have some skill, will be the ones grabbing the scholarships. It's funny because a lot of times we (parents) paint a picture to our kids that they need to be in the gym 24/7. Look what Michael Jordan, Steph Curry, Ray Allen, Diana Taurus does and try to emulate it. We forget that those guys are professionals and their life is ONLY basketball. They have the luxury and time to spend working on their craft. There are kids all along the spectrum of smart and athletic. I always told my kids to use sports to get your foot in the door to a place that may not be accessible to you, otherwise.

As for the fun factor, I think that applies more to younger teens in regards to staying with basketball. At the older ages, it seems like they know it's gonna be a lot of work if they want to get a scholarship and are willing to sacrifice to achieve that goal. Those things are NOT fun, but necessary for success.

 

[Paytc]

I am really enjoying this topic and the interesting comments coming from different sides, including high school coaches from top programs. Just wanted to add my thoughts from parent perspective- I am a parent of two high school girl players and also have a young son that is starting to play now.
As all of you know, the times have changed nowadays with these sports teams! More and more coaches have their teams playing and working out year round! There is no off-season any longer and there are no breaks. There is so much pressure put on parents and kids to keep playing and working out in the off-season to get better and better; the expectation I see is that once they are done with the high school season, they go right into their AAU season and continue playing in the spring and all summer. Many even play on both their AAU teams and also work out with their high school teams at the same time! Playing 2 or 3 sports nowadays is non-existent because if they aren't focusing on the 1 sport, then they are not perfecting their skills or dedicating themselves to become the best and compete at that 1 sport.
Remember as NorcalFan said, these are high school teenage girls. They have other interests and other activities in their life besides basketball year-round. I would say the majority of these girls playing high school ball will not be going on to play college basketball, and many of them do not want to. And School must come first! My daughters are both straight A students, which is much more important than playing year round. As much as I want them to practice and work out more to improve their skills to be able to compete with the best players, I have to remind myself that their priority is schoolwork.
Lastly, I also need to remind myself that it needs to stay FUN for them. With all the pressure, hard work, and time commitment asked of these student athletes to put into practices, games, tournaments, it needs to stay FUN for these kids. If it isn’t fun for them, why are they doing it? I want my girls to love this game for the rest of their lives, and when they have children of their own, to have them love the game also. The pressure and commitment nowadays can take the fun out of the game. Maybe a break during the offseason is needed for many of these kids to keep their passion for the game alive. On that note, I am looking forward to the upcoming high school season, good luck to all!

basketball 11 you make several very good points. And remembering basketball is a game is something that has been long lost in the mist of the American obsession to compete and divide based on who is most successful. We have people who are becoming millionaires and billionaire who are still unhappy. At some point relax on all the separation and negative competition. Even in the pros though it's a business it is still just a game and should be enjoyable win or lose. No one always wins. That is why improvement should be the goal for all regardless. I just get turned off by the no fun league. That is why my favorite player of all time was Magic Johnson. He played hard but kept a smile on his face to remind all that it is and always will just be a game. And that winning was not always determined by the scoreboard but your attitude in victory and a loss.

alwayslearning.......... good name and good topic to discuss.

 

[OnBall8]

As for the fun factor, I think that applies more to younger teens in regards to staying with basketball. At the older ages, it seems like they know it's gonna be a lot of work if they want to get a scholarship and are willing to sacrifice to achieve that goal. Those things are NOT fun, but necessary for success.

I don't care what level you are at, it should be fun. I know plenty of players, former and current, that made it to the next level, and that hard work IS fun to them. Maybe not every minute of it, but they realize the fruits of their labor and that part is enjoyable to them. Basketball, at the high school level especially, should only be done if it is fun.
That said, I understand that there are kids out there that get told they will not be able to attend college without a scholarship, and probably some that play in college after enjoyment has passed but continue to play to fulfill that commitment to graduate. At that point, it is more like a job and a more complex issue in a young woman's life.

 

[ClayK]

I think there are two categories of high school players: Those aiming for scholarships, and those who are not.

A full scholarship is worth somewhere around $200,000 to $400,000 and that payoff is huge. Putting in lots of time and effort to get that reward is a reasonable investment, but it's possible that even with the time and effort, there isn't enough talent for coaches to justify giving a full ride.

In short, getting that much money is like having a job, and in fact, working toward a scholarship is a job.

Those who aren't focused on making money from their basketball would probably be better off looking at the experience as a whole -- that is, the camaraderie, the competition, the fun on the one hand, and the time, energy, sacrifice, injury potential, etc., on the other.

My goal for my players has been for them to look back on high school basketball and say to themselves or others "That was a good experience -- I'm glad I did it." I think that should be the goal for 95% of high school players, really, and there's no need to sacrifice social life, other sports, and other opportunities outside the season to be on the team. (Of course, part of being on the team is being part of the group, and group pressure will require some offseason investment of time -- but that's part of the experience.)

 

[CW Golden Eagles]

I think if you are playing the game to chase a scholarship, then you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Only 1% of HS players earn a full ride Division 1 scholarship (of course there are other levels, but those are an equally small percentage as well). If basketball (or any sport) is their passion, they should train because they want to be the best they can be at it. Seeing the growth and maximizing their potential should be rewarding. It isn't always "fun." Some do enjoy training and grinding more than others. But the fun comes from having personal and team success on the floor. The fun comes from great trips, nice gear, and awesome friendships that are all obtained through this journey. The scholarship piece is an amazing bonus for those fortunate enough to earn it. But kids also need adults in their lives that are honest with them about where their abilities are, what they need to work on, and how realistic that is. Don't set kids up for failure.

I have some kids that train like D1 athletes, but they just aren't D1 talent. But good for them for pouring their heart and soul into their passion. We give our kids all of August and part of September off. We tell them if they want to work out, it is on them to contact us during that down time. If they need a break, take a break. If they play a fall sport, go to your fall sport. But if you want to work out, come work out. Give us a call.

I also see in our kids that some LIKE the game and some LOVE the game...and that's ok! The kids that LIKE the game don't want to always get up at 7:00AM on a Saturday for an optional workout. My thing for them is, don't put in a LIKE the game effort but want LOVE the game rewards. Not everyone will start, be all-league, earn a scholarship, or be a captain. That next tier is typically reserved for the kids that do train and are in the gym a lot trying to get better.

As for my own child, she was a 4 sport athlete for 2 years in middle school while doing 2 club sports in her "down" time. When she entered HS, she wanted to focus only on basketball and her grades. I pushed and pushed for her to do AT LEAST one other sport, but she had a plan for what she wanted to achieve. So after several conversations, the decision was hers to only play one sport. As her head coach, it would have been easy for me to "push" her into just choosing our sport, but I actually wanted her to do the opposite. But it was her decision. So she made her decision and decided to train 3-4 days a week and focus on her academics and it has worked out well for her. But if I had pushed that decision or made it for her, there may have been regrets, burn out, etc. Let the kids choose their path and then help them achieve what they want to achieve. Be honest with them. Present both sides of each decision so they understand potential gains and potential sacrifices.

 

[Azanna]

I expect Player A to show up to open gyms, work hard and compete for a spot on varsity.

If she's one of the best 12, she's on varsity; if she's one of the best eight, she's in the rotation; if she's one of the best five, she starts.

The real world rewards production, and as Kyle Shanahan was quoted as saying Monday, working hard is fine, but you have to have talent too.

This isn't rec league any more -- there are no participation awards, and dad isn't coaching.

If the player isn't good enough, she doesn't play, no matter how good her attitude and how hard she tries. If the coach doesn't win enough, she gets fired.

I completely agree with Clay at the end of the day the coach should be about winning and yes the player that didn't show up is going to have to work extra harder to get back in good graces but if she is just flat out better she/he is going to end up back in the lineup. Showing up is a big part of it in terms of commitment and if you work on your craft you are going to eventually pass up the player that’s not showing up but if you don't just go pro in something other than the WNBA.

 

[Norcal_Fan]

I hear what you're saying, but if you're not chasing a scholarship and you're a committed player, then why else would you be playing basketball? The love of the game only goes so far...there has to be more motivation for one to continue to work counties hours on their game. Hoops on the girls side is much different than the boys. Even though there is the WNBA, it's not as lucrative as Europe or men's sports.

I totally agree that kids need adults to help them be realistic about setting goals and achieving them. Most parents are not good at this because they are usually not objective and think their kid is going to Duke, Stanford or another BCS school-not saying all parents, but there's a lot!

 

[CW Golden Eagles]

I hear ya, but I think the love of the game can be greatly overlooked. The kids competing for scholarships are similar to the number of teams competing for a state championship. If you are only playing for that end prize, which 1% of players/teams, why are the others even playing? Why does a team that knows they have a ZERO percent chance of winning a state title and more than likely a losing record, why do they even play? Because they love the game. And the window to play for most kids ends their senior year. I've had many kids that didn't have aspirations of playing at the next level that gave their heart and soul to our program and to off season workouts. They were 100% committed to everything. I've had teams where winning league was a HUGE accomplishment and others where it would have felt like a failure to not win section that year due to the tremendous talent we had in place. You don't have to be elite to love the game. But if you want to be elite, you do have to put in the work.

 

[Norcal_Fan]

valid points and great discussion!

 

[sfpreps]

Appreciate everyone thoughts.
This is exactly what this board is for so all can learn and hear from other perspectives.

 

[ClayK]

There is a tendency to look at high school sports through the lens of college-bound players, or players who are on elite teams -- but the bulk of players don't fall into that category, and many coaches are also devoted amateurs, working hard but not sacrificing their outside lives for basketball.

We believe this is one reason for the success of the West Coast Jamboree, which has 160 teams, the vast majority ranked below 200 in the MaxPreps' state rankings. Those teams want a tournament experience, but they're not interested in playing the best to be the best, because realistically they're never going to be the best. Every once in a while, a team like Bentley will stumble into some talent, win its league and maybe win a game (or even two) in section playoffs. But most of the time, .500 is a great goal, and going to a tournament and playing other, similar, non-championship-contending teams, is what they're looking for.

Similarly, the individual players don't "love the game." They like the game, they enjoy their teammates, they like competition, and if all goes well, they look back on their high school sports' experience with fondness. But to say that those girls who play who aren't after scholarships "love the game" is overemphasizing its importance.

Now playing for Clovis West or Miramonte for a non-scholarship-seeking girl is a major commitment, and love of the game has to play into it -- though I think love of being on a team is more of a factor.

So how does this relate to this thread? For most teams and players, commitment to offseason activities is not going to be all-in, nor should it be. Some girls have a chance to play in college, some girls love the game, but most like being on a team, like basketball, and look forward to having fun doing so. They are not interested in seven-mile runs on Saturday mornings at 8 a.m., nor extensive preseason conditioning, nor two-hour film sessions after games.

It's important, then, for players and parents to understand the environment they are in, and what can be reasonably expected. At Miramonte, coaches can and should expect much more commitment than at Bentley, but there's nothing "wrong" with either set of expectations. Just because the elite kids are totally committed doesn't mean the less-talented girls should be. After all, they may be committed to academics or music or something else -- or just be drifting through high school, as many kids do. But the bottom line is that tryouts start in November (in NCS at least) and the girls who show up then should all be treated equally. Sure, coaches might like more, but the truth is that most girls don't love the game enough to sacrifice a great deal for it -- but liking the game and being on a team is really enough for the vast majority of programs.

 

[alwayslearning]

This is a great read:
https://coachingtoolbox.net/10-traits-of-coachs-favorite-players

I agree with a lot of what you all are saying. Again a lot depends on the program and type of culture the coach running that program has created. A lot depends on how long that coach has been at that school too. If that coach is long standing and has established their program and the culture of that program. Established so much that the incoming Frosh know the expectations of that coach/program.
I agree you don't have to have aspirations to play in college to be committed and bought in to that program. You don't even have to show up all the time. But, as a parent and as a player you should be expected to communicate with your coaches and teammates. That is part of being a great teammate, being dependable, having pride, being a hard worker, being a leader. Some of the traits that every coach wants to see in every kid.
Agree with Clay that at the end of the day what every coach wants is to create an environment of opportunity and great experience.
The best teams and memories should include those that win championships as well as those that don't. Life lessons and great memories hopefully are being built.
Kids and parents at some point will most likely feel uncomfortable, but that is okay and good because that means there is growth happening.
I heard a coach say, You are either with us or against us, bought in or bought out.
I agree that kids and or parents usually cut themselves. No coach wants to have to game plan against their own circle whether that be parents or players. Coaches have enough to worry about game planning against their opponents.

Most coaches are passionate about the game and eat, sleep, drink, breathe the game. Most coaches want to share that passion with their players. Whether you are a collegiate bound player or not, you still can exude that passion for the game, your team, your school, your teammates, your grades, and your coaches. Finding that balance is important, but sometimes difficult depending on the program, league, etc.

My advice to any young person who is part of a team/progam is to make sure you communicate at the very least with your teammates, but even better your coaches. Especially if you plan on playing in the future.
As a parent I know I make sure my kids communicate and show their appreciation, that is just part of their basic responsibility. Some of those traits in the article are god given and others are learned. Sports is one of the best avenues for teachable moments. And sometimes that means some tough love.
To me I don't think the only reason you can get cut from a team is because you aren't good enough. One of many words that has gone out the door is LOYALTY.

 

[colhenrylives]

There is one more factor that hasn't been emphasized: The size of the student body. At Bentley, a small school, multi-sport kids are almost a necessity; at Berkeley, probably not so much. There are only so many athletes available out there. Young people should be encouraged to play more than one sport. Competition is healthy. No player should be penalized simply because she is committed to more than one sport at her school. She should be applauded instead.

 

[alwayslearning]

colhenrylives very much agree with you. The days of multi-sport athletes is pretty much gone because of the pressure to play year round, mostly AAU or club in other sports. Many HS coaches for the last 20 years since club/AAU has blown up deal with the pull of club/AAU. Many parents and players choose AAU over playing with their HS team and or coaches.
I think not all sports are the same either. I don't think this is a problem with vball or softball as much as it is with bball. Off-season bball with their HS team is much more common than off season workouts with those other sports. Of course if a kid is playing another sport in the Fall the Winter coach should not expect that kid to be doing anything with the Winter Sport team until their Fall sport is over. Nor should the kid be punished for playing another sport in the off season. A HS coach should encourage any and all kids to play multi sports because that kid only has 4 more years to do that and get that experience. Unfortunately not all coaches do encourage that and actually do the opposite in trying that kid to choose their sport only.
I encouraged my daughter to participate and try as many sports as possible in middle school; track, X country, volleyball, basketball, softball, soccer.
The issue in the initial scenario was not doing anything, not showing up at all, not communicating at all with their teammates or coaches in the off season and just showing up first day of tryouts expecting a jersey and a spot on the team. Ultimately reaping the team benefits of all those that did show up and take responsibility for their team, teammates, and program.