2019 Open Division seeding????

[Paytc]

Still a few head to head matchups pending to determine the seeds.

But we can select teams that have a good shot to make the top 8. If 8 teams will once again make up the number of teams in the Norcal Open Division tournament.

Pinewood, Salesian, Mitty, Carondelet, Heritage, MM, SMS, SJND, Sacramento, SHC,CN, Antelope,Bishop Odowd, Bear Creek, Mc Clatchy, Folsom, SRV,Dublin, California....

Did I leave anyone out?

Pinewood has a 1/9/19 @ Carondelet game 1/22 ESCP, 1/26 Salesian
Carondelet has a 1/5/19 @SMS, 1/9/19 Pinewood,1/19/19 Folsom, 1/21 Mitty, SJND,Cal, SRV, and possible Heritage.
Salesian has a 1/5 SHCP,1/12 Mitty, 1/21 Odowd, 1/26 Pinewood, 1/31 SMS
Mitty has a 1/5 Sacramento, 1/12 Salesian, 1/21 Clet, 1/26 SJND, and SHCP twice
Heritage has 1/9 SMS, 1/12 mcClatchy, 1/19 ESCP, 1/21 Sacramento, 1/26 Antelope
Miramonte has 1/5 Chaminade, 1/12 Folsom, 1/19 B.G.(Nv),1/21 SHCP, 2/4 ESCP
Sacramento has 1/5 Mitty, 1/18 Centennial (of Nevada), 1/21 Heritage
SMS has 1/5 Clet, 1/9 Heritage, 1/31 Salesian, 2/2 Odowd
SJND has 1/5 @ Mater Dei, 1/10@ Valley Christian, 1/12 Clet, 1/21 Bear Creek, 1/26 Mitty
Antelope has 1/5 California, 1/9 Inderkum, 1/26 Heritage
Bear Creek has 1/21 SJND, 1/26 Folsom
Folsom has 1/12 MM, 1/19/19 Clet, 1/23 mcClatchy, 1/26 Bear Creek
CN has 1/19 Bear Creek
SHCP has 1/5 Salesian, 1/12 Odowd, 1/15 Mitty, 1/21 MM, 2/2 Mitty
Odowd has 1/12 SHCP, 1/21 Salesian, 2/2 SMS
McClatchy has 1/12 Heritage, 1/23 Folsom
SRV HAS 1/15 Cal, 1/24 Dublin, 2/1 Clet, 2/5 Cal
Dublin has 1/18 Cal, 1/24 SRV, 1/26 Clet
California has 1/5 antelope, 1/15 SRV, 1/18 Dublin, 2/5 SRV, 2/7 Clet

I'm sure I didn't list all the key match ups that will take place in the next 1-5 weeks.
Double check the times, locations, and days of all the games listed above.

Any thoughts????

 

[jstblev]

Antelope vs Heritage 1/26/2019 @ Heritage.

 

[Paytc]

Antelope vs Heritage 1/26/2019 @ Heritage.

Thanks. I am actually about to update many of the schedules shortly.

 

[stepslide]

Don't think Folsom, SHC, CN, or O'Dowd are open division teams.

 

[Paytc]

Don't think Folsom, SHC, CN, or O'Dowd are open division teams.

We have to put some teams in the 7th and 8th slot, so I'm just putting on a few on the bubble teams. On your list below off hand I think your leaving out SJND. I think they started the season with a few injuries.

But depending on how SJND does when they play head to head with Mitty, Clet, Bear Creek, Mater Dei, and in the NCS they could also get into the Open.

 

[stepslide]

Bubble teams are Antelope, Bear Creek, Heritage, SMS pick 1 from these 4

top 7

Mitty, Pinewood, Sac Hi, Carondelet, Miramonte, Salesian, McClatchy

 

[Norcal_Fan]

Still a few head to head matchups pending to determine the seeds.

But we can select teams that have a good shot to make the top 8. If 8 teams will once again make up the number of teams in the Norcal Open Division tournament.

Pinewood, Salesian, Mitty, Carondelet, Heritage, MM, SMS, SJND, Sacramento, SHC,CN, Antelope,Bishop Odowd, Bear Creek, Mc Clatchy, Folsom, SRV,Dublin, California....

Did I leave anyone out?

Pinewood has a 1/9/19 @ Carondelet game 1/22 ESCP, 1/26 Salesian
Carondelet has a 1/5/19 @SMS, 1/9/19 Pinewood, 1/21 Mitty, SJND, SRV, and possible Heritage.
Salesian has a 1/5 SHCP,1/12 Mitty, 1/21 Odowd, 1/26 Pinewood, 1/31 SMS
Mitty has a 1/5 Sacramento, 1/12 Salesian, 1/21 Clet, 1/26 SJND, and SHCP twice
Heritage has 1/9 SMS, 1/12 mcClatchy, 1/19 ESCP, 1/21 Sacramento, 1/26 Antelope
Miramonte has 1/5 Chaminade, 1/12 Folsom, 1/19 B.G.(Nv),1/21 SHCP, 2/4 ESCP
Sacramento has 1/5 Mitty, 1/18 Centennial (of Nevada), 1/21 Heritage
SMS has 1/5 Clet, 1/9 Heritage, 1/31 Salesian, 2/2 Odowd
SJND has 1/5 @ Mater Dei, 1/10@ Valley Christian, 1/12 Clet, 1/21 Bear Creek, 1/26 Mitty
Antelope has 1/5 California, 1/9 Inderkum, 1/26 Heritage
Bear Creek has 1/21 SJND, 1/26 Folsom
Folsom has 1/12 MM, 1/23 mcClatchy, 1/26 Bear Creek
CN has 1/19 Bear Creek
SHCP has 1/5 Salesian, 1/12 Odowd, 1/15 Mitty, 1/21 MM, 2/2 Mitty
Odowd has 1/12 SHCP, 1/21 Salesian, 2/2 SMS
McClatchy has 1/12 Heritage, 1/23 Folsom
SRV HAS 1/15 Cal, 1/24 Dublin, 2/1 Clet, 2/5 Cal
Dublin has 1/18 Cal, 1/24 SRV, 1/26 Clet
California has 1/5 antelope, 1/15 SRV, 1/18 Dublin, 2/5 SRV, 2/7 Clet

I'm sure I didn't list all the key match ups that will take place in the next 1-5 weeks.
Double check the times, locations, and days of all the games listed above.

Any thoughts????

To me, BOD is an enigma. They've played a lot of teams tough, they're sitting at 5-7, but looking at their record and what remains, they could finish with 16 wins going in the playoffs, and have 19 wins before NCS championship. IF they beat MM again in the championship game (lets be honest, those two will be in it again) they'll have 20 wins strength of schedule and bound for the open division. The other question is would MM also be bumped up because they success they're having. On paper (haven't seen them play) they've been shooting the crap out of the ball and beating some good teams!

 

[Winning Is Fun]

I agree with stepslide.

Why so much love for Dublin?

 

[ClayK]

(All of this assumes no huge upsets/injuries)

So CCS gets 2: Mitty and Pinewood

NCS:

If Heritage and Carondelet play in the D1 final, you'd have to think both go Open.
If Salesian wins D3, you'd think they're in.

Since the max for NCS is four teams, that means that either the D2 winner (Miramonte or O'Dowd, presumably) or St. Joseph Notre Dame (with strong results and a good showing in the D3 final) could fill the final spot.

Then again, there are only eight spots, and Sac-Joaquin could well deserve three. The D1 winner and runnerup will both be strong, and if Antelope wins D2, it could have a stronger case than the NCS D2.

If it goes 2-3-3, possibly

Mitty
Pinewood

Carondelet
Heritage
Salesian

(or St. Joseph Notre Dame or Miramonte or O'Dowd)

SMS (with Oliver back)
Folsom
Antelope

(though there are other SJS candidates, obviously)

2-4-2

Mitty
Pinewood

Carondelet
Heritage
Salesian
SJND/Miramonte/O'Dowd

SMS D1 champ
Antelope/D1 runner up

 

[Norcal_Fan]

(All of this assumes no huge upsets/injuries)

So CCS gets 2: Mitty and Pinewood

NCS:

If Heritage and Carondelet play in the D1 final, you'd have to think both go Open.
If Salesian wins D3, you'd think they're in.

Since the max for NCS is four teams, that means that either the D2 winner (Miramonte or O'Dowd, presumably) or St. Joseph Notre Dame (with strong results and a good showing in the D3 final) could fill the final spot.

Then again, there are only eight spots, and Sac-Joaquin could well deserve three. The D1 winner and runnerup will both be strong, and if Antelope wins D2, it could have a stronger case than the NCS D2.

If it goes 2-3-3, possibly

Mitty
Pinewood

Carondelet
Heritage
Salesian

(or St. Joseph Notre Dame or Miramonte or O'Dowd)

SMS (with Oliver back)
Folsom
Antelope

(though there are other SJS candidates, obviously)

2-4-2

Mitty
Pinewood

Carondelet
Heritage
Salesian
SJND/Miramonte/O'Dowd

SMS D1 champ
Antelope/D1 runner up

I love the way Heritage plays and I think Rob has done an amazing job since taking over. That said, what open caliber wins do they have that would thrust them into the open division, assuming they win D1? I would hate to see them get into the open division and lose in the first or second round. It seems to me that there has to be a couple factors when going to open. 1) history with how you've done in your sectional finals. 2) strength of your schedule. 3) wins on your schedule. Heritage doesn't have that other than maybe strength of schedule and a down St. Mary's team. I hope they stay D1

Norcal has to protect some of it's teams for state. The Same thing happened last year with Folsom....they get blasted by St. Mary's (last year) and get put in the open? they could have done some damage in D1 if they'd of stayed. Gotta love competitive equity.

 

[basketba11]

I love the way Heritage plays and I think Rob has done an amazing job since taking over. That said, what open caliber wins do they have that would thrust them into the open division, assuming they win D1? I would hate to see them get into the open division and lose in the first or second round. It seems to me that there has to be a couple factors when going to open. 1) history with how you've done in your sectional finals. 2) strength of your schedule. 3) wins on your schedule. Heritage doesn't have that other than maybe strength of schedule and a down St. Mary's team. I hope they stay D1

Norcal has to protect some of it's teams for state. The Same thing happened last year with Folsom....they get blasted by St. Mary's (last year) and get put in the open? they could have done some damage in D1 if they'd of stayed. Gotta love competitive equity.

Wow, what a great start to the season for Heritage. 9-1 record and good wins over CN, SHC, Dublin twice and SMC! It is very early to place them in Open, but they definitely should be mentioned as contenders. I think the rest of the season will determine if they stay contenders for Open as they have some very tough games still to play. St Marys in Stockton, McClatchy, ECP, Sac High and Antelope will be good tests for them. This team always plays hard. But can someone let me know more about this team! Aside from 2 standout exceptional players in Jordan Sweeney and Muse, they must be getting much more production this year from the supporting cast? Like every year, after the first 4 teams (this season looks like Mitty, Pinewood, Salesian and Carondelet), I'm sure teams would like to be placed in D1 and get home games rather than play on the road in Open. But this year more than most, seems like there are definite more upset possibilities in 1st round.

 

[observer22]

Is Heritage even qualified for the Open, or would they have to opt in? I have forgotten the rules for qualifications, and am too lazy to look them up.

 

[observer22]

Here we go. I don’t think Heritage qualifies for the Open without opting in, which coach Rob may not want to do.

https://calhisportsfootball.wordpress.com/primer-for-cif-basketball-open-division/

 

[Paytc]

Here we go. I don’t think Heritage qualifies for the Open without opting in, which coach Rob may not want to do.

https://calhisportsfootball.wordpress.com/primer-for-cif-basketball-open-division/

Sure a public school for the most part is typically at a disadvantage to private schools. So that should be taken into consideration. However what happens if say Heritage plays well and even wins the 3 or 4 really challenging games left on their schedule. And then goes on to upset Clet in the NCS? Will they be able to "opt" in or will their resume influence them being selected in?

 

[observer22]

Sure a public school for the most part is typically at a disadvantage to private schools. So that should be taken into consideration. However what happens if say Heritage plays well and even wins the 3 or 4 really challenging games left on their schedule. And then goes on to upset Clet in the NCS? Will they be able to "opt" in or will their resume influence them being selected in?

I would hope in that scenario that coach Rob would opt in. But if they don’t win the really challenging games left and don’t beat CLet at NCS, then perhaps another team is a better option.

 

[Paytc]

I would hope in that scenario that coach Rob would opt in. But if they don’t win the really challenging games left and don’t beat CLet at NCS, then perhaps another team is a better option.

But I think it is fair to say there's a good chance they can win the games in question. They are a very good and well coached team. So its hard to just count them in or out of any game or any tournament come March.

 

[Azanna]

The thing I've never understood is why you guys think coaches are dying to play in the open division. If you ask any coach privately unless they have a REAL CHANCE at winning the open they would prefer to play in their division. Most of you guys just do not get it.


Just sayin

 

[colhenrylives]

Could not agree more.

 

[observer22]

The thing I've never understood is why you guys think coaches are dying to play in the open division. If you ask any coach privately unless they have a REAL CHANCE at winning the open they would prefer to play in their division. Most of you guys just do not get it.

I’m not sure where you got the idea that anyone thinks coaches are dying to play in the Open division. It’s pretty clear a lot of people hope to avoid being placed in the Open division. Most coaches that are not placed in the Open would not opt in, unless the felt they had the horses to make a real run at the ultimate state championship.

Now as a fan, I would rather see the best teams play the best teams, regardless of where they want to be placed or who they want to avoid.[/QUOTE]

 

[Paytc]

The thing I've never understood is why you guys think coaches are dying to play in the open division. If you ask any coach privately unless they have a REAL CHANCE at winning the open they would prefer to play in their division. Most of you guys just do not get it.


Just sayin

Two concerns.....

First you never teach children to dodge a challenge. That's not good leadership.
Next you must prepare just in case you have no other choice.

Being a parent of a child playing at Carondelet 4 years, I use to talk to and walk by parents who seem to tremble over the thought of playing in the Open. Personally my feeling was I'd rather be challenged and play the best than just be handed a reward playing a lesser opponent. So to each their own. I think both perspectives can say "most don't get it". It boils down to the amount of confidence and character you have within to challenge yourself higher. Some schools like say Carondelet typically won't have a choice but to play in the Open division. Thus they need to spend the pre and regular season preparing for the Open Division. I think all good teams should be prepared to play in the Open. It can't hurt to prepare to play the best. I've personally played with and against some very good players. Some went on to play professional ball. I didn't hesitate to congratulate several of those players. But I'm sure they will tell you I never backed down from their challenge. And on many occasions I out played them. Why?

Because I always took the view that one should only fear things that are life threatening. Basketball is not life threatening. I think too many or most people don't get that fact. So they let fear have a greater influence over them than courage and confidence should.

 

[Passionatedad]

Two concerns.....

First you never teach children to dodge a challenge.
Next you must prepare just in case you have no other choice.

Being a parent of a child playing at Carondelet 4 years, I use to talk to and walk by parents who seem to tremble over the thought of playing in the Open. Personally my feeling was I'd rather be challenged and play the best than just be handed a reward playing a lesser opponent. So to each their own. I think both perspectives can say "most don't get it". It boils down to the amount of confidence and character you have within to challenge yourself higher. Some schools like say Carondelet typically won't have a choice but to play in the Open division. Thus they need to spend the pre and regular season preparing for the Open Division. I think all good teams should be prepared to play in the Open. It can't hurt to prepare to play the best. I've personally played with and against some very good players. Some went on to play professional ball. I didn't hesitate to congratulate several of those players. But I'm sure they will tell you I never backed down from their challenge. And on many occasions I out played them. Why?

Because I always took the view that one should only fear things that are life threatening. Basketball is not life threatening. I think too many or most people don't get that fact. So they let fear have a greater influence than courage and confidence should.

There are coaches that actually schedule to stay out of the open . Making sure they have enough loses to stay out of the open. It should be an honor to make the open and there should be some special recognition for those teams that qualify. I know being a SMS supporter that the fact they are the only team in the state that has been in the open since the beginning of the open is considered quite an accomplishment. A lot of schools can make the open on a given year, but to consistently do it every year really proves who the ELITE programs really are. I personally feel winners in a division state championship game are division champions, but there is only one REAL STATE CHAMPION and that is the OPEN champion. Once again just my opinion .

 

[Pbacoach]

After west campus winning 2 straight state titles don’t they belong in the open or moving up to division 2 at least?

 

[colhenrylives]

There are coaches that actually schedule to stay out of the open . Making sure they have enough loses to stay out of the open. It should be an honor to make the open and there should be some special recognition for those teams that qualify. I know being a SMS supporter that the fact they are the only team in the state that has been in the open since the beginning of the open is considered quite an accomplishment. A lot of schools can make the open on a given year, but to consistently do it every year really proves who the ELITE programs really are. I personally feel winners in a division state championship game are division champions, but there is only one REAL STATE CHAMPION and that is the OPEN champion. Once again just my opinion .

The private/parochials typically belong, by definition, in the Open Division. No enrollment boundaries make them utterly different from the publics. No comparison.

 

[Paytc]

After west campus winning 2 straight state titles don’t they belong in the open or moving up to division 2 at least?

Not sure they necessarily belong in the Open just because they won two state titles. As each season should be determined by which teams are strongest. But the most important point is no team should intentionally dodge a challenge. And all teams should aim to be better teams in March than they are in November. And no good team(s) should dodge the Open just to win at a lower level IMO.

It has always puzzled me why all the fear to play the so call better teams. Have you ever really taken a close look at some of the so call better teams? IMO There aren't many if any so intimidating that other good teams should lose tons of sleep over the thought of playing them.

 

[observer22]

After west campus winning 2 straight state titles don’t they belong in the open or moving up to division 2 at least?

From the sound of “winning 2 straight state titles”, you would think they’d belong in the Open. But when you analyze what they actually won and the way everything was seeded from top to bottom, it doesn’t mean they have been even one of the top 8 teams in NorCal, much less the champions of the state. Competitive equity should move them up this year I would think.

 

[colhenrylives]

Watched West Campus last week. Definitely not a NorCal Open Division unit. Not close this year. Maybe in the past. Not now.

 

[Pbacoach]

I watched them myself and they don’t look like the west campus of the past. My thought was “cif rules” regards to winning.

 

[colhenrylives]

I watched them myself and they don’t look like the west campus of the past. My thought was “cif rules” regards to winning.

Their defensive performance vs. Esperanza last week was not good by any definition you care to use.

 

[ClayK]

I think that article was from 2012 ... I don't think you have a choice any more. The committee picks whoever it wants ...

 

[observer22]

I think that article was from 2012 ... I don't think you have a choice any more. The committee picks whoever it wants ...

So there’s no longer any qualifying or opting in? Whoever the committee deems the top 8 go to the Open? I guess that makes sense with their ranking all teams 1 through 80 or whatever the number to set up the competitive equity brackets.

 

[straightline50]

Open is now included in competitive equity. No qualification needed. CIF and the mystery committee seeds teams based on 1 through 88 seeding. Where you fall is where you fall.

 

[ClayK]

The whole opting in thing was sort of dumb because it assumed that the team you had three years ago had an impact on the team you had now.

The best way to seed is at the season's end, which is what they do now. Of course, there will always be mistakes and teams will always wind up at the bottom of one bracket instead of the top of the next one down, but there's no way to avoid that. The 16th seed in Division II is unlucky; the one seed in Division III isn't.

 

[Azanna]

The whole opting in thing was sort of dumb because it assumed that the team you had three years ago had an impact on the team you had now.

The best way to seed is at the season's end, which is what they do now. Of course, there will always be mistakes and teams will always wind up at the bottom of one bracket instead of the top of the next one down, but there's no way to avoid that. The 16th seed in Division II is unlucky; the one seed in Division III isn't.

I agree with this system you described, it should be year by year and not based on past years teams.

As far as West Campus goes their state titles are in divisions that almost every top D1 or 2 team would win. West Campos is an example of a school that plays under PRIVATE SCHOOL rules and is allowed to pull kids from all over the city and then is allowed to exploit the system and win paper state titles. That school is a paper champ ONLY

 

[ClayK]

And Sacramento High is a magnet school that can draw from any public school in a 47,000-student district.

 

[basketba11]

Last year with the new Competitive Equity system, it was ridiculous that West Campus was ranked #5 in Division 3. They should not have been an Open team, but they should have been moved up to Division 1 bracket for sure. At the least, Division 2. But to be #5 seed in Division 3, that was just crazy and ludicrous. They had 2 D1 players (Johnson and Jefferson) on the roster last year to go along with Rones and the Division 3 state title was a cakewalk for them. Really can't blame them, they can only play where they are placed. But the seeding committee really was way off for this last season, and thanks to that, they went out and won back to back state titles. What can we say? Other than Congratulations! This year's team after losing their 2 D1 stars are definitely not the same team, and of course not an open team.

 

[ClayK]

There's no perfect system, in anything, and trying to determine state champions in a state with 1,400 schools of varying enrollments, boundaries and priorities is pretty much a lost cause.

I like this system better than the previous ones, but there are loopholes and grey areas that will always benefit some and punish others.

 

[observer22]

How is the NorCal seeding done? Does each section submit their own seedlings of their teams in order, and the committee then sorts them in with the other sections, or do they just blindly try to seed 88 teams, most of which they’ve never seen?

 

[Pbacoach]

I agree with this system you described, it should be year by year and not based on past years teams.

As far as West Campus goes their state titles are in divisions that almost every top D1 or 2 team would win. West Campos is an example of a school that plays under PRIVATE SCHOOL rules and is allowed to pull kids from all over the city and then is allowed to exploit the system and win paper state titles. That school is a paper champ ONLY

Dang that’s disrespectful. Paper champs? That’s harsh. So you don’t give coach langston any credit? If team/school exploited the system he did a dang good job. Because he has 2 paper titles

 

[ClayK]

Each section submits a list of teams, ranked in order. The CIF committee -- which does boys and girls, north and south -- then uses those lists as a guide, but can move teams up or down as it sees fit. (For example, if a section submits its Division I champion as its top team, but the CIF committee feels the D-III team is better, it can switch the order.)

Essentially, the committee takes all the teams nominated, and then ranks them, in its opinion, one through 88.

 

[ClayK]

Paper champ? Try winning a state title, in any division, and finish the process and say it was just "paper."

There is no easy path to any state title, in any sport, in any division -- but especially basketball, because of the length of the season and the nature of the game.

West Campus is a state champion -- and deservedly so. They controlled what they could control, and beat a bunch of good teams along the way.