Call me old Fashioned

[rez96]

but I miss the good old days….

when you could pay cash to get into a high school football game

there were less than 15 state champions

and when divisions were set by student enrollment instead of arbitrary decision making.

Why even have divisions if this is what it has come to?

 

[Cal 14]

You're definitely old fashioned.

 

[ankleassassin]

do you also miss rotary phones and no internet to post your boomer ideas.

 

[rez96]

do you also miss rotary phones and no internet to post your boomer ideas.

The term “Old Fashioned” was sarcasm. Using cash and 6 state championship bowl games we’re maybe 3 years ago?? Rotary phones…mid 80’s??

But hey, I get your point things are changing. Maybe not all for the good.

I just think Fifteen state championship games are too many, whether you still use a rotary phone, flip phone or I-phone 20.

 

[rez96]

And, can anyone see the possible pit falls of choosing what division teams are in after the season is over for playoffs?

It can definitely incentivize losing late in the year trying to get in a lower division where they can win a section/state championship. Or, “punish” a team who wins a close game late in the year, gets put up in a division they have no chance of winning.

Your division should be set prior to the season whatever the criteria is.

 

[THEOC89]

The term “Old Fashioned” was sarcasm. Using cash and 6 state championship bowl games we’re maybe 3 years ago?? Rotary phones…mid 80’s??

But hey, I get your point things are changing. Maybe not all for the good.

I just think Fifteen state championship games are too many, whether you still use a rotary phone, flip phone or I-phone 20.

The Fact that there is a 0-10 team playing a 1-9 team in a Regional play off game is all we need to tell us there are way too many “State Championship” games….

I mean come on, who in their right mind would recognize a team who finished their regular season 0-10 or 1-9 as a “State Champion”….. It’s just completely embarrassing for the CIF. The sections and everyone involved…..

Something needs to change, absolutely Rediculous….

 

[rez96]

The Fact that there is a 0-10 team playing a 1-9 team in a Regional play off game is all we need to tell us there are way too many “State Championship” games….

I mean come on, who in their right mind would recognize a team who finished their regular season 0-10 or 1-9 as a “State Champion”….. It’s just completely embarrassing for the CIF. The sections and everyone involved…..

Something needs to change, absolutely Rediculous….

Even the fact that there is a 7AA and 7A division is proof.

I can imagine being in the meeting when they decided to go with 15 state champs…

.”what should we call division 14 state champs?”

Answer
“Division 14 has too many numbers, let’s call it Division 7A. Plus, in a couple years, we can have 28 state champs, and just add a bunch of “A’s” after each number. All in favor?”

 

[bella123]

Even the fact that there is a 7AA and 7A division is proof.

I can imagine being in the meeting when they decided to go with 15 state champs…

.”what should we call division 14 state champs?”

Answer
“Division 14 has too many numbers, let’s call it Division 7A. Plus, in a couple years, we can have 28 state champs, and just add a bunch of “A’s” after each number. All in favor?”

Well I’ve heard that answered, “That’s how Texas does it.” 😂

 

[Rocknrolus 95361]

The term “Old Fashioned” was sarcasm. Using cash and 6 state championship bowl games we’re maybe 3 years ago?? Rotary phones…mid 80’s??

But hey, I get your point things are changing. Maybe not all for the good.

I just think Fifteen state championship games are too many, whether you still use a rotary phone, flip phone or I-phone 20.

It's the no cash thing that gets me. I have to pay twice as much for tickets as regular season. But you have to pay ticket fee? Isn't this extortion? CIF working with ticket sales companies? As I approach my 70's I am getting my 70's conspiracy theory thing going again!

 

[Cal 14]

And, can anyone see the possible pit falls of choosing what division teams are in after the season is over for playoffs?

It can definitely incentivize losing late in the year trying to get in a lower division where they can win a section/state championship. Or, “punish” a team who wins a close game late in the year, gets put up in a division they have no chance of winning.

Your division should be set prior to the season whatever the criteria is.

We've had this system for a few years in the CCS, but I don't think we've had many (if any) cases of teams throwing games in order to get into lower brackets. My alma mater, Salinas, has had three straight opportunities to do this and hasn't.

 

[Cal 14]

The Fact that there is a 0-10 team playing a 1-9 team in a Regional play off game is all we need to tell us there are way too many “State Championship” games….

I mean come on, who in their right mind would recognize a team who finished their regular season 0-10 or 1-9 as a “State Champion”….. It’s just completely embarrassing for the CIF. The sections and everyone involved…..

Something needs to change, absolutely Rediculous….

That has nothing to do with the CIF. That's the San Diego Section allowing everyone and their mother into the playoffs.

 

[Cal 14]

Well I’ve heard that answered, “That’s how Texas does it.” 😂

Texas is the only example to which California can be compared. These are the only two states with more than 1000 football schools. Texas has a boatload of divisions (19). People have said "we should be like Texas". Uh, no, we shouldn't.

Colorado has 5 divisions for 202 teams. For California, that would mean 20 divisions.

Indiana has 6 divisions for 323 teams. For California, that would mean 19 divisions.

Georgia has 15 divisions for 465 teams. For California, that would mean a whopping 33-34 divisions.

The CCS has the fewest number of playoff teams relative to the overall number of members at 42.1%. If we were to apply that to the rest of the state, that would mean 439 teams advancing. If we had set up 32-team brackets for them (finalists would end up with 15 games), we'd still end up with 14 divisions.

The only reason people are lamenting California's 15 is because we started with 3 as a trial run. If we had done it completely from the beginning, we'd still be well into the double-digits. So many on here talk about eliminating the sections and going with a state-wide playoff system... well, we'd have at least around this number if we did that.

I can only say that those complaining about the CIF's system probably may not have taken the time to (or simply can't) understand the math very well.

 

[Cal 14]

I don't disagree that a number of teams don't deserve to play in the playoffs. No 0-10 or 1-9 team has any business doing so. Also, many sections have too many divisions. Paring down, you could have:

NS - 3
NCS - 6 (they absolutely do not need 8)
SJS - 7
CCS - 5
CS - 5
SS - 12
LACS - 3
SDS - 5

(Note the elimination of the SFS and OS)

With this...

we'd still end up with about 13 divisions!

 

[bella123]

Texas is the only example to which California can be compared. These are the only two states with more than 1000 football schools. Texas has a boatload of divisions (19). People have said "we should be like Texas". Uh, no, we shouldn't.

Colorado has 5 divisions for 202 teams. For California, that would mean 20 divisions.

Indiana has 6 divisions for 323 teams. For California, that would mean 19 divisions.

Georgia has 15 divisions for 465 teams. For California, that would mean a whopping 33-34 divisions.

The CCS has the fewest number of playoff teams relative to the overall number of members at 42.1%. If we were to apply that to the rest of the state, that would mean 439 teams advancing. If we had set up 32-team brackets for them (finalists would end up with 15 games), we'd still end up with 14 divisions.

The only reason people are lamenting California's 15 is because we started with 3 as a trial run. If we had done it completely from the beginning, we'd still be well into the double-digits. So many on here talk about eliminating the sections and going with a state-wide playoff system... well, we'd have at least around this number if we did that.

I can only say that those complaining about the CIF's system probably may not have taken the time to (or simply can't) understand the math very well.

Most of those states have way to many divisions as it is. Nothing wrong with less divisions and lowering the number of teams and creating a higher threshold to get into the playoffs. Better games and more interesting if you make it earned over say a 0-10 vs. 1-9 match up.

 

[Cal 14]

Most of those states have way to many divisions as it is. Nothing wrong with less divisions and lowering the number of teams and creating a higher threshold to get into the playoffs. Better games and more interesting if you make it earned over say a 0-10 vs. 1-9 match up.

I believe the SS and SDS are the only sections in which those teams could advance. It would be impossible everywhere else.

 

[Cal 14]

Most of those states have way to many divisions as it is. Nothing wrong with less divisions and lowering the number of teams and creating a higher threshold to get into the playoffs. Better games and more interesting if you make it earned over say a 0-10 vs. 1-9 match up.

I agree that the requirements should be tightened up, but I'm telling you, that wouldn't make the amount of difference you think it would.

Do the math.

 

[rez96]

I agree that the requirements should be tightened up, but I'm telling you, that wouldn't make the amount of difference you think it would.

Do the math.

I love it Cal 14. Good stuff with your research

I could get on board with your argument about number of divisions compared to other states….


However, it’s simply wrong to pick divisions after the season is over for playoffs. Divisions should be set prior to the season. Not gerrymandered afterwards.

It’s always been that way, and for good reason.

There are many examples this year of teams being “punished” for winning late and being put up in a division they have little chance of winning. While the teams they beat are “rewarded” by being put in a lower division where they can win.

How is that good? Its not

 

[bella123]

I believe the SS and SDS are the only sections in which those teams could advance. It would be impossible everywhere else.

Again this seems like a no brainer argument again why to get rid of the sections. Have everyone state wide play by the same exact rules. That seems more reasonable to me than some just making uo their own arbitrary rules and guidelines.

 

[Cal 14]

I love it Cal 14. Good stuff with your research

I could get on board with your argument about number of divisions compared to other states….


However, it’s simply wrong to pick divisions after the season is over for playoffs. Divisions should be set prior to the season. Not gerrymandered afterwards.

It’s always been that way, and for good reason.

There are many examples this year of teams being “punished” for winning late and being put up in a division they have little chance of winning. While the teams they beat are “rewarded” by being put in a lower division where they can win.

How is that good? Its not

No, the divisions have not been set prior to the season for the majority of the state for a while.

This hasn't been the case in the CCS for over 30 years.

The CCS and SS have sought to create a hierarchy in their divisions for some time. They've finally done that. LACS, SDS, and CS have also moved to create this.

There has to be a cutoff for the divisions somewhere. Whether that's determined by enrollment, performance, or historic league placement, small gaps have always separated teams between divisions.



But even for the SJS, whose divisions are predetermined, there's a dirty little secret.

They don't really care about divisions, either.

If the divisions are really where the playing field is balanced and fair, why is it that D-1 Central Catholic is in the same league as D-4 Sierra? Why is D-1 Inderkum in the same league as six D-3 teams? D-2 Atwater with D-4 El Capitan, Buhach Colony, and Los Banos?


You complain that some teams are put in divisions where they have no chance of winning... Ok, but is that really any different than McClatchy or Kennedy being forced into SJS D-1? American in NCS D-1? The CCS and other sections have come to realize that there are some schools that will just never excel in football and choose to adjust accordingly.

Without competitive equity in the NCS, you'd have the same small private schools dominating everyone else in D-4 (Cardinal Newman and Marin Catholic) pretty much every single year. Did any of the small public schools really have a chance to win? Why should CN and MC be entitled to an easy path to the tittle every year? Is Twelve Bridges really a D-4 team? Did anyone else in that division stand a chance against them?

Is this how you define "fair"?


Yes, sections have tried to move teams around from year to year with hopes that it levels the divisions, but almost every CIF section has come to know what the CCS has known for 30 years. You don't really know where they belong until you see the teams on the field that year.

 

[northbaybbguru]

That has nothing to do with the CIF. That's the San Diego Section allowing everyone and their mother into the playoffs.

An 0-10 St Augustine IS ALLOWED TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS IN SAN DIEGO and them wins the section.

Ridiculous...

The system is a joke. California high school playoffs is a joke.

The CIF has completely lost their minds.

The "everyone gets a trophy mindset" has taken over the State.

Common sense once again is no where to be found.

Put me in the category of the "Old Guys" also then. Get off my lawn you darn kids!

 

[PALFan]

An 0-10 St Augustine IS ALLOWED TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS IN SAN DIEGO and them wins the section.

Ridiculous...

The system is a joke. California high school playoffs is a joke.

The CIF has completely lost their minds.

The "everyone gets a trophy mindset" has taken over the State.

Common sense once again is no where to be found.

Put me in the category of the "Old Guys" also then. Get off my lawn you darn kids!

We got to this point because of our litigious society. When they had 5 state bowl games and a 12-1 section champ got overlooked that school lawyered up so the CIF said fine, all section champs move on.

Football: View Park is selected for Division IV regional bowl game​

By Eric Sondheimer
Dec. 9, 2013 11:10 AM PT

Los Angeles View Park (13-0), the City Section Division III champion, has been selected for its first CIF state championship bowl game and will play in the Division IV Southern California regional bowl game on Friday at 7:30 p.m. on the road against Bakersfield Christian (11-2).
A Superior Court judge in San Diego refused on Monday to grant an injunction to El Cajon Christian, which was suing the CIF to be considered for Division IV.
El Cajon Christian (12-1), with an enrollment below 400, won the San Diego Division III championship but was considered a State Division II team by the San Diego Section and CIF State. The school filed a lawsuit challenging that decision.
Advertisement

Roger Blake, the executive director of the CIF, said in a statement, “We want to congratulate all of the CIF section champions, but it is extremely disappointing that the CIF had to spend thousands of dollars in this legal action that could have been better spent in providing educational programs to the 1,547 member high schools and nearly 800,000 participating student-athletes.”

 

[rez96]

No, the divisions have not been set prior to the season for the majority of the state for a while.

This hasn't been the case in the CCS for over 30 years.

The CCS and SS have sought to create a hierarchy in their divisions for some time. They've finally done that. LACS, SDS, and CS have also moved to create this.

There has to be a cutoff for the divisions somewhere. Whether that's determined by enrollment, performance, or historic league placement, small gaps have always separated teams between divisions.



But even for the SJS, whose divisions are predetermined, there's a dirty little secret.

They don't really care about divisions, either.

If the divisions are really where the playing field is balanced and fair, why is it that D-1 Central Catholic is in the same league as D-4 Sierra? Why is D-1 Inderkum in the same league as six D-3 teams? D-2 Atwater with D-4 El Capitan, Buhach Colony, and Los Banos?


You complain that some teams are put in divisions where they have no chance of winning... Ok, but is that really any different than McClatchy or Kennedy being forced into SJS D-1? American in NCS D-1? The CCS and other sections have come to realize that there are some schools that will just never excel in football and choose to adjust accordingly.

Without competitive equity in the NCS, you'd have the same small private schools dominating everyone else in D-4 (Cardinal Newman and Marin Catholic) pretty much every single year. Did any of the small public schools really have a chance to win? Why should CN and MC be entitled to an easy path to the tittle every year? Is Twelve Bridges really a D-4 team? Did anyone else in that division stand a chance against them?

Is this how you define "fair"?


Yes, sections have tried to move teams around from year to year with hopes that it levels the divisions, but almost every CIF section has come to know what the CCS has known for 30 years. You don't really know where they belong until you see the teams on the field that year.

Lots of good points if your only goal is to get more close playoff games.

My point is this, if you are going to have divisions, that shouldn’t be the main goal.

Just put yourself in San Marin’s shoes…amazing season as a base D4 team. A team that would be a D4 NCS champ this year with previous year’s rules.

They get rewarded….I mean punished…by being the #8 seed in the open/d1 bracket and play DLS 1st rd. Everyone knew their season was over before that game happened. How is that good?

Set the Divisions prior to the season and roll with it in the playoffs

 

[rez96]

And, as far as setting divisions, it should absolutely be set by school enrollment for public schools. There is no other objective way to set it.

For privates, not so simple, not sure what the correct answer is.