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CIF and Section Playoff Proposal

mshNASTY

Sports Fanatic
Sep 2, 2008
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I think there's no doubt that the CIF and section playoffs need a complete overhaul. A comment on
another forum topic got me thinking, what's the best scenario for a California
State Football Championship? Between the CCS and their open division consolation
games, misclassification of their open champ and SJS having their D1 and D2
champs playing each other in the D1 bowl game it all seems confusing and disorganized.
The sections want to make as much money as possible by having as many teams
possible in the playoffs, there's no reason to have 2-8 teams or even 5-5 teams
for that matter competing against the states elite. If a kid gets a 5 out of 10
on a quiz in class he or she gets an F, not a pat on the back. The way the
post-season should work is it should be a reward for your regular season, a
team shouldn't need to go through the playoffs to validate they belong in a
second round of post-season games. High school football teams shouldn't have to
go through a 10 game regular season then play another 6 playoff games. It's too
much and while law makers want to limit contact in practice to prevent
injuries, the sections have no problem having 15, 16, 17, and 18 year olds play
an NFL schedule to line their pockets. What I propose is the best of both
worlds…..

#1. Immediately following the regular season have 5 divisions in a state playoff tournament with 8 teams
in a Nor Cal bracket, 8 teams in a So Cal bracket for a total of 80 schools
selected by a committee. A Nor Cal and So Cal champ will be crowned after 3
games and meet for their division state championship to make it a 14 games
season for 10 schools.

- Division 1 (2,000+)

- Division 2 (1,500-1,999)

- Division 3 (1,000-1,499)

- Division 4 (500-999)

- Division 5 (11-499)


#2. Between the 5 state champions a committee will select 2 teams to play in an open championship like
a "Super Bowl." 1 final game and all attention to go with it for a true state
championship. Only 2 teams will play a 15th game and they MUST
already be a state champ.

#3. The sections can now operate like an NIT tournament and run whatever format they wish with the state
tourney teams removed. This way there are more Champions crowned every year
between the state and sections. The sections still get there games and their
money as well as more competitive match ups. If a team like Folsom or DLS go to
the state tourney the section gets a piece of the gate which means even more
money coming in. It makes going to the state tournament more important than the
sectional playoff championship; it would be a big deal and give the fans the
high profile matchups that always seem to be avioded because of the current
format. In a 16 team sectional playoff bracket a handful of teams would play a
max of 14 games.


….. I'd like to start the
discussion to see what other football people in California think. If you like
my idea and want to add onto it, great. If you hate in a want to tear it apart,
awesome. We all know that the current system is severely flawed and needs
revision. The CIF and section to section don't seem like they are on the same
page, this format seems like a good solution that is easy to implement at a moment's
notice.

This post was edited on 1/29 10:37 AM by mshNASTY
 
Where would teams like St Bonaventure, Serra-Gardena play? They are as good as most D1 / D2 size programs in many years and probably a mismatch in most cases against teams their enrollment size (including the norcal privates). I would think maybe having them play in D2 (e.g., weight certain private small programs in higher enrollment brackets based on strength of schedule, etc.).
 
I don't know what's wrong with the current format other than keep the Open regional play-in. The new format seems more confusing.
 
The way I see the new format, it basically gives the SoCalSections a chance to get a couple better teams in the finals. Also guarantees a SJS D1 team gets in because they will never have to face DLS in Norcals. Which is terrible since the NCS D1 teams are screwed by having to play/beat DLS, and the second place NCS teams are often just as good, in not better, the the top two SJS teams. Getting a free pass is complete BS! If the SJS gets a pass, then NCS D1 runner up should get a chance.

Make the Norcal 1AA participants based on a ranking system, not solely open to section champs.
 
The NCS just needs to have an Open division, with DLS as the only Open team. That way, DLS would go on as usual to the state game to take on SoCal's best and the other good NCS teams like Pitt, Cal, Logan & SRV most years can battle it out for a D1 spot in one of the bowl games.
 
NCS should have an open division and a D1.

Open division should be the 4 top rated D1 teams including DLS. As the teams in the open division lose, they should be fed back down to the D1 bracket (example below). This ensures that DLS has to play 2 difficult games to win their section, but still allows the other NCS D1 teams a chance to win a section and state bowl game.

Assuming top seeds win, it would go like this (asterisks indicate teams that are entering the D1 playoff after losing in the open):

Open division would be DLS v #4 and #2 v #3 in week one and DLS v #2 in week 2.

Division 1 would pit #6 v #7 and #5 v #8 in week one.
#4* v #8 and #3* v #6 in week 2
#3 v #4 in week 3
#2* v #3 in week 4

This assumes that the open is all D1 teams and in that sense the term open is a little misleading, so they could call it the DLS division and D1, but I think this is the only fair way for the other NCS D1 teams to get a shot while still dealing with the fact that DLS needs to be in some sort of playoff bracket. Also #2 seed gets a bye in week 3 after losing to DLS, which is not ideal, but probably a necessary evil to make the brackets work.
 
Great, you lose and you are rewarded to go on? Pussification 2015, love it. Because everyone should get a trophy!
 
Originally posted by Paloma:

the second place NCS teams are often just as good, in not better, the the top two SJS teams.
What results are you basing this on?
 
I am basing this on Pittsburg and Granite Bay battling it out over the years. Matter of fact, when Granite Bay won the state title, Pittsburg beat them. Also SRV and James Logan has battled some SJS teams over the years. Pittsburg was in a battle last year with a Mitty team who won and lost close games to the top CCS teams. Freedom battled Granite Bay last year and has beaten and lost to the likes of Franklyn over the years. Pittsburg used to play St. Mary's of Stockton about a decade ago and if I remember correctly Pittsburg won more then they lost. And the grand finally... De La Salle has completely destroyed the SJS and it's top teams.
 
We need to see intersectional playoff of games that will be competitive, not section games where good teams cake walk to the quarter finals or finals.
 
NCS doesn't need an open game. They need a D1 team to man up and beat DLS. Changing the format because of DLS is just pussy in my book.
 
Tunz- you are obviously a very tough guy. No team has knocked them off in Northern California in what, two decades. Teams like Pitt and Cal should be able to get a chance to lose to them in the NC finals. A a case can easily be made that both those teams have played DLS better than Folsom or any other you want to name.

Who is your team tunz? Would you be such a tough Internet guy if your team got their arse kicked 20+ years in a row because of geographical proximity? Why do you think they made changes this year? Reality is so a deserving team like Folsom had a shot at a state title.

I'm the least politically correct guy on here but if there is a way to get the top teams to play at the end instead of early, it's a good thing.
 
Based on what? That they haven't lost to a Norcal team in 20 plus years? If that's what you mean then you're correct. As should the CCS and SJS since now that they won't have to play them.

This post was edited on 2/1 8:34 PM by Paloma

This post was edited on 2/1 10:35 PM by Paloma
 
NCSF,

If I was involved with a team as a player or coach that played DLS every year, I'd be excited to have the opportunity.. learn from the losses and get better every year, and accept the geographical fact that they're in my league or section. To me it would be like having the opportunity to play a championship game every year. I would love it. I certainly wouldn't go running to mama commissioner, like the dweebs in CCS, and I definitely don't want the NCS to start doing things like CCS. Geez..just win games man.
 
Add SJS to that list. There's only three viable sections involved with De La Salle to get to State Championship, and that's the NCS, CCS, and SJS. Under this new format, CCS and SJS are virtually free from having to face them.

I do agree with you in terms of no one should dodge them. But don't create exceptions for some, make it available for all. If you still don't understand my point 1tunz1, along with NCSF's point, then we are just chasing our tails. Kind of like explaining DLS unfair competitive advantage to NCSF! ;-)
 
I'm not saying to dodge them. I always want to play the best. I'm saying it doesn't make sense to have the two top teams play early when they could play in the finals. That's what is done in basketball. Find a way to seed it if possible- that's all.
 
Dodge them? In a lot of years, NCS teams like Pitt, Cal, Logan and SRV end up playing DLS twice. Just wanting to share the opportunity with some other teams that might not otherwise get such an opportunity.
 
NorCalSF- Teams like St. Bonnie and Serra-Gardena could always petition up and if they didn't they could eventually play in the Open state game vs a D1 or D2 champion if they were one of the top two teams in the state. Teams like that would more than likely be involved in a state playoff tournament every year which is fine.
 
Originally posted by Paloma:
I am basing this on Pittsburg and Granite Bay battling it out over the years. Matter of fact, when Granite Bay won the state title, Pittsburg beat them.

Granite Bay is 4-1 all-time against Pittsburg. The Grizzlies won 3 of the 4 games by 10 points or more and 2 games were blowouts. The only win Pitt has was the miracle OT comeback you mentioned. This doesn't at all equate to close battles. GB clearly has had the upper hand in the series.

Originally posted by Paloma:
Also SRV and James Logan has battled some SJS teams over the years.

Who has SRV beaten in recent memory? The only games I am aware of were against Folsom, who is 3-0 against them with all wins by 11+ points.

Who has Logan beaten in recent memory? The only games I am aware of were against Del Oro, who is 2-0 against them with both wins by 7+ points.

Originally posted by Paloma:
Freedom battled Granite Bay last year and has beaten and lost to the likes of Franklyn over the years. Pittsburg used to play St. Mary's of Stockton about a decade ago and if I remember correctly Pittsburg won more then they lost.

Freedom is 1-3 against GB and Franklin and were outscored 126-82 in those games. How does this support your statement that the NCS's 2nd place teams are as good or better than the top 2 SJS teams?

St. Mary's hasn't played Pittsburg since at least 2000, and I believe it has actually been longer than that. Regardless, what do games played in the 1990's have to do with what's been going on much more recently?

Originally posted by Paloma:
And the grand finally... De La Salle has completely destroyed the SJS and it's top teams.

The original comment I asked you to clarify involved the NCS's 2nd place teams, as you put it. The Spartans dominance doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the NCS and their record against the SJS's top teams.

Your grand finale point is completely irrelevant.

I'll close with this:

Since 2008, the SJS's top 10-12 D1/D2 programs have compiled a 29-6 record (.828) against the NCS sans DLS. If you include the SJS's top D3/D4 schools in the mix, that record becomes 47-16 (.746).

We're talking the likes of Central Catholic, Del Campo, Del Oro, Elk Grove, Escalon, Folsom, Franklin, Grant, GB, Oakdale, Oak Ridge, Rocklin, St. Mary's, Vacaville, etc.

I have a list of 25 and not one of them has a losing record against the NCS (san DLS). The worst two records are Napa at 5-5 and Vacaville at 4-3. You take those two out and the other 23 SJS programs are 38-8. That record includes victories over the likes of Pittsburg, Salesian, Marin Catholic, Cardinal Newman, Casa Grande, Rancho Cotate, Clayton Valley, Deer Valley, SRV and California.

Lastly, I think most would agree that GB, DO, Grant and Folsom have been among the top 2 SJS programs most of the past 7+ seasons. Their combined record against the NCS is 17-2. WINS: Pittsburg 4x, SRV 3x, Deer Valley 2x, Freedom 2x, Logan 2x, Montgomery 2x, California 1x, Cardinal Newman 1x. LOSSES: Cardinal Newman 1x, Pitt 1x.

As you can see, there is nothing to support the premise that the NCS's top teams aside from DLS have been as good or better than the SJS's top 2 teams, let alone their top 25. Not in the past 7+ seasons anyway. The wins just aren't there.











This post was edited on 2/2 7:08 PM by ThunderRam
 
It would be interesting to see more of those games played, but sure SJS has far more really good teams than NCS and CCS combined.

I am aware of Cal playing 3 SJS teams in the last 7+ years and they are 2-1. If we actually had some playoff games with an NCS D1 team other than DLS facing SJS or CCS teams, then we could tell more. Pitt beat GB the year GB won state, but there are many more good SJS teams than there are NCS so it is hard to compare when you are looking at the top 25 SJS teams as there may only be 5 or 6 worthy teams in NCS D1 each year, which is about 25% of the teams.
 
Originally posted by observer22:

It would be interesting to see more of those games played, but sure SJS has far more really good teams than NCS and CCS combined.
I don't really wish to start a section debate, but rather point out something that was said that's not factually correct.

To your point, it'd be nice to see more games played between the top programs from the NCS, CCS and NCS. And we've been seeing more and more of it the past 7-8 years. All we have to go on are the games that have been played between the top programs in recent years and the results are not in the NCS's favor with the obvious exception of DLS.
 
I'd agree that top to bottom the Sac-Jac section has been stronger than NCS in the past 10 years but that doesn't mean that year to year there are some NCS teams that are as good if not better. Case-in-point the 2010 Cal High team, 12-2, 2 loses to DLS and one reversed on side kick call from perhaps beating them. It would have been nice to see that team play Palo Alto or somebody else besides EBAL rematches in the playoffs or other NCS playoff teams squeaking in at 5-5. Cal High kept it a lot closer that the SoCal representative in CIF game
 
The Cal vs. Del Oro game in '09 in the showcase Battle at the Captiol was very close 28-21, DO prevailing. Cal's QB ended up throwing darts at SDSU and the Grizz with a rookie coach, new running O and second game of the season, would've handled them later in season. Pratt had a monster game and was handed the ball 40+ times! He was visibly concussed in the third, but that was before CTE knowledge and concussion protocol. He ran for 340 something and 4 tds beating Folsom that year. One tough kid.
 
Not to metion those SRV Zack Kline teams. Also, four of thos five games between Pittsburg and Granite Bay were close games. Bottom line is the new format is jaded. A fourth team should be brought back in to the picture to compete for the open championship. If not, base everything on rankings. Why does the NCS have to "man up" but no other section has to? Easy as make the D1AA and the Open division be based on Rankings. What is so wrong with that? No one will pick the section loser over the section winner. Example... If Pittsburg were to beat DLS last year, you're going to tell me DLS shouldn't be in the State playoffs but Grant and Folsom should? Bet the rule would be changed then! Just like how it was after DLS throttled Folsom two years in a row!
 
1315- In '09 Cal High was only 5-6 and led that game vs Del Oro 21-7 at one point. I think they lost to Washington of Fremont twice that year. Just another reason to see intersectional playoffs.
 
Originally posted by ThunderRam:


Originally posted by observer22:

It would be interesting to see more of those games played, but sure SJS has far more really good teams than NCS and CCS combined.
I don't really wish to start a section debate, but rather point out something that was said that's not factually correct.

To your point, it'd be nice to see more games played between the top programs from the NCS, CCS and NCS. And we've been seeing more and more of it the past 7-8 years. All we have to go on are the games that have been played between the top programs in recent years and the results are not in the NCS's favor with the obvious exception of DLS.
What did I say that you believe is not factually correct?
This post was edited on 2/3 1:11 PM by observer22
 
Originally posted by observer22:

What did I say that you believe is not factually correct?
Nothing at all. I was referring Paloma's statement regarding the NCS's 2nd place teams versus the SJS, which led to an off-topic discussion. I merely wanted to know what he was basing his opinion on and, as I've pointed out, it wasn't based on reality.

Originally posted by Paloma:

Also, four of thos five games between Pittsburg and Granite Bay were close games.
Having an opinion is one thing, but continually citing untrue statements in support of that opinion is another. Only 2 of the games were close. The other three were won by double-digits. 38, 20 and 10.

As cited previously, the NCS sans DLS is 2-17 against the SJS's top 4 programs of the past 7-8 years. Pitt is 1-4, SRV is 0-3, Cal is 0-1, CN is 1-1, Freedom is 0-2, Montgomery is 0-2, Deer Valley is 0-2, and Logan is 0-2.

I don't care if your opinion changes or not, I'm just pointing out that the facts do not at all support what you're claiming. Your opinion may not be that far off base, but the supporting evidence you keep posting is 100% wrong.

Originally posted by mshNASTY:
1315- In '09 Cal High was only 5-6 and led that game vs Del Oro 21-7 at one point. I think they lost to Washington of Fremont twice that year.
This means absolutely nothing. That same season, Del Oro was upset by 4-7 Woodcreek. Should anyone surmise that Woodcreek was better than Cal High because they pulled off the upset and the Grizzlies didn't? All teams are capable of playing up or down to the level of their opponent. A single game doesn't at all provide a clear indication how good a team is. That's why they play a full season. The record at season's end is the better indication and both WC and Cal were under .500 that year.

You can find numerous examples of a Section or State title winner playing a close game or losing to a inferior opponent. It doesn't equates to that team, it's division or section being on par.
 
Guess you didn't see those games. I'm merely stating that there have been some tough games and the majority of those teams you mention from the NCS, I'm pretty certain that none made it the NCS final that year. So those blowouts were merely against teams with down years. I brought up Freedom and Logan because there games were "battles", not last second victories or games that could've gone either way. Since there's no reason for the best teams to play intersectional games, it doesn't matter. Create an intersection playoff like Observer said and you will start seeing the top teams against the top teams from each section because it will help with seedings. Again I'll bottom line it... There should be no going around DLS to make it to the State championship, which is what the SJS and CCS will be able to do.
 
ThunderRam - Those are hardly NCS' best teams.... Freedom, Montgomery and CNewman, C'mon man! I guess you forgot Campo who was 2-0 against the SJS this year, Clayton Valley was 2-0, Concord was 2-0, all against SJS section playoff semi-finalist and none of those games were even close... so what's your point?
 
Originally posted by ThunderRam:


As cited previously, the NCS sans DLS is 2-17 against the SJS's top 4 programs of the past 7-8 years. Pitt is 1-4, SRV is 0-3, Cal is 0-1, CN is 1-1, Freedom is 0-2, Montgomery is 0-2, Deer Valley is 0-2, and Logan is 0-2.
When you say the SJS' top 4 programs, which 4 teams are you referring to? Or are you looking at each season in review and seeing who the top teams were each season? Each year is different and subject to talent injury swings and top teams some years are not always great the next, except DLS.

The 2nd and 3rd best NCS D1 teams each year are pretty darn good teams. The year Cal played Del Oro they were 5-6, so they weren't a good team that year. Had they played them in 2010 it would have been a much different story, and Cal almost won that game in Sacramento as it was. It is the same argument I see on here where SJS fans say there were teams that could have/would have beat DLS in a certain year but they never played. Sure DLS played some SJS teams over the years, but never the top teams until the 2 Folsom games. Calprep project a matchup: neutral field
[2010] California (San Ramon, CA) 35, [2010] Del Oro (Loomis, CA) 13.


The only way to ensure that the top teams play each other is to have the top teams line up at the end of a successful season in the playoffs. That is all we are saying. The NCS D1 has only 21 to 24 teams each year depending on enrollment swings. In most years, the top team or 2 below DLS would be very competitive with any SJS or CCS teams, but only DLS moves on since the current rules only allow the section winners to advance.

The NCS D1 should go back to an 8 team playoff and allow the section runner up to play another game against top flight NorCal competition. Some years they will lose, and some years they will win, but to assume all other NCS D1 teams are crappy because they have a couple of losses to DLS is off base.
 
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