CIF State FB Playoffs Changes for 2023

[bulldogmgc]

Interesting article from CalHiSports:

State FB Playoffs: Early Season Primer

It's never too early to start thinking about CIF state football championships, especially when just about every year there are changes in some of the CIF sect

www.calhisports.com

This is HUGE NEWS, in my opinion, and impacts CCS and SJS the most. To read that St. Mary’s (Stockton), which plays in a D1 league, will be placed in D2 for section playoffs (no longer D1, until it wins 3 straight section championships at D2 per SJS Bylaws) based “purely on its enrollment” where technically they may fall into D3 or D4 based on enrollment, but can’t go lower due its league being D1 and the bylaws state it can’t drop into a division more then 1 division lower than the division it’s league belongs to.

Can anyone please confirm? Recall last year that a few teams, like Central Catholic, had pre-season agreements in place that assigned them to preset divisions for playoffs. For example, Central Catholic played in D1 and lost to Folsom. Any pre-season agreements this year? Based on the enrollment document and the footnotes, we might have more insight to which divisions the SJS teams in question will participate for playoffs. Central Catholic and Monterey Trail will be D1; and Del Oro, Manteca, Elk Grove, St. Mary’s, and a few others cannot be in a division lower than D2, even if their enrollment has them drop to a lower division.

I’m still hopeful for St. Mary’s to have some kind of exception/agreement in place to participate in D1 (not D2 as the article shares). Would be nice to redeem itself in D1 for the upset vs Turlock, much of this years Rams team experienced as juniors. Would be nice to compete against the likes of Oak Ridge and Folsom. But, right now, St. Mary’s must focus on Manteca this upcoming Friday, which they may see again in the playoffs. I also feel St Mary’s being subjected to D2 for playoffs pretty much eliminates any thought of St. Mary’s getting picked for the Open, even if they would finish undefeated and Serra would take a loss (ie. vs DLS or in the playoffs).

Too early? It’s early indeed, but playoff talks always seem to get started early on as teams jockey for playoff seedings.

 

[Rocknrolus 95361]

Not sure about this new playoff plan. I know VOL. The VOL is a D3 league. But all the teams are by enrollment D4. If you win league you go D3. Other teams can play D4. But from continued success rule Oakdale has to be D3, Manteca D2 and CC has to be D1. In my opinion CC and Manteca belong D2 and Oakdale is a solid D3. CC is not in my opinion not a D1 team. CC and Oakdale are 5 to 4 since the joined VOL. So I don't think they are a D1 team

 

[MTsince2004]

I think that the move in the SJS spreads out the wealth in a way that gets more highly-ranked teams into the bowl games. If you look at the new system and pay attention to the "expected outcomes," the new rules would allow Folsom, St. Mary's, and Grant to all move on where in the past at least one or maybe even two would be knocked out in head-to-head action in the playoffs.

That sounds kinda good in one way, but it does make you scratch your head at how Grant is in D3 and how St. Mary's is really a very-much D1 school from a competitive standpoint but is now D2.

Additionally, if the Section wants to do this, they should have reset everybody by enrollment then let the moving happen after multiple wins. Too many teams are "legacy" packed into D2 right now and that is throwing off the balance.

 

[Streak One]

Need to see how this plays out, but I like the idea of not forcing a team up for winning a league. Too many times in football and basketball, a team loses the league but improves their chances in NorCal/State which is bad.

But with any change, there will be some unintended consquences.

 

[BigMann08]

Enrollment based playoffs weakens the CIF-SJS championships. It also destroys equity and parity among the teams.

If I’m reading it correctly, this new system appears to be a $$$ grab! I would imagine that the CIF experienced increased earnings from the 2022 section Championship lineup.

Folsom/OakRidge, Granite Bay/Manteca, Grant/Christian Brothers: These teams all have decent fan bases.

Adding St.Marys to the D2 field provides another fanbase who brings in decent ticket sales. The CIF was missing out on that Pacer $$$$. They have one of the biggest fanbases in the SJS.

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

I’m still hopeful for St. Mary’s to have some kind of exception/agreement in place to participate in D1 (not D2 as the article shares).

it's locked in... everyone knows who is where.
https://cifsjs1-my.sharepoint.com/p...org/Documents/Website/Sports/Enrollments&ga=1

St. Mary's is really a very-much D1 school from a competitive standpoint but is now D2.

under the previous format, SM has never done anything to move up from its D2 status. They win league every year, but they have not made the finals in a long time. If Lincoln could've held on a couple of years ago, they would've won the league, and SM would've went D2 that year.
Central Catholic got D1 status cuz they kept winning titles.

I think that the move in the SJS spreads out the wealth in a way that gets more highly-ranked teams into the bowl games.

it's all about this.

as the article states, when the southern section figures that out... game over.

 

[MTsince2004]

It will interesting to see how things play out if the Section revisits the power-rated leagues concept mid-cycle or at the next re-alignment. There was a lot of sentiment and a few proposals that would shift from the current situation of locking teams into division-oriented leagues for four years. It could significantly reshape the landscape.

 

[THEOC89]

as the article states, when the southern section figures that out... game over.

I don’t think the Southern Section really cares about the Loser Moves on format…. They already have D1 where they crown a True Champion for the open….

What this Shows is Nor Cal could bring back the Open play in game if we really wanted to…. We will now have 2 loser moves on 4 team “Open” playoff brackets in The NCS and CCS and So Cal has none….

San Diego uses a 4 team Open but it’s the Best 4 teams and there is no loser moves on…. Not this Ridiculous top 2 vs Bottom 2 and the loser of the #1 vs #2 moves on….

We need the open play in game up here…. What we have learned is that just because Serra Beat Folsom doesn’t mean if they played again that Folsom wouldn’t beat Serra the next time…. This happened with DLS 2 years ago and This has happened multiple times in So Cal with MD and SJB….

It’s time to stop handing out a Nor Cal Championship and play it out in the field…. We all know The Open is a Farce…. At least with a Nor Cal open championship game, The Best team in Nor Cal can win an actual championship….

The days of The Folsom rule and everyone fearing to play DLS in the playoffs are over, it’s time to stop the nonsense….

 

[John Mellencamp]

Not sure about this new playoff plan. I know VOL. The VOL is a D3 league. But all the teams are by enrollment D4. If you win league you go D3. Other teams can play D4. But from continued success rule Oakdale has to be D3, Manteca D2 and CC has to be D1. In my opinion CC and Manteca belong D2 and Oakdale is a solid D3. CC is not in my opinion not a D1 team. CC and Oakdale are 5 to 4 since the joined VOL. So I don't think they are a D1 team

That is not the case this year. The Divisions are set regardless of league division designation or champions. The link below takes you to the divisions this year. It's my understanding that there is no moving from these divisions.

https://cifsjs1-my.sharepoint.com/personal/wdeboard_cifsjs_org/_layouts/15/onedrive.aspx?id=%2Fpersonal%2Fwdeboard%5Fcifsjs%5Forg%2FDocuments%2FWebsite%2FSports%2FEnrollments%2Ffb%5Fdivisions%5F2324%2Epdf&parent=%2Fpersonal%2Fwdeboard%5Fcifsjs%5Forg%2FDocuments%2FWebsite%2FSports%2FEnrollments&ga=1

View: https://twitter.com/SacMaxPreps/status/1692242300678926806

 

[bulldogmgc]

it's locked in... everyone knows who is where.
https://cifsjs1-my.sharepoint.com/personal/wdeboard_cifsjs_org/_layouts/15/onedrive.aspx?id=/personal/wdeboard_cifsjs_org/Documents/Website/Sports/Enrollments/fb_divisions_2324.pdf&parent=/personal/wdeboard_cifsjs_org/Documents/Website/Sports/Enrollments&ga=1


under the previous format, SM has never done anything to move up from its D2 status. They win league every year, but they have not made the finals in a long time. If Lincoln could've held on a couple of years ago, they would've won the league, and SM would've went D2 that year.
Central Catholic got D1 status cuz they kept winning titles.

it's all about this.

as the article states, when the southern section figures that out... game over.

You must be a Lincoln Trojan fan or just a St. Mary’s Ram hater, possibly Edison Viking fan, lol.

Under the previous format, a team moving up a division or such was not based on titles won. It was based on competitiveness. This topic has come up before and nearly everyone on this forum (except you) and the SJS officials have agreed that St. Mary’s has been competitive in the D1 playoffs. Please define “long time”.

Here’s some history that might help refresh your memory …

St. Mary’s performance for last 8 years …

2015-16 - W/L 10-3 - lost to Folsom (section champs) in SJS D1 semi-finals (49-56)
2016-17 - W/L 14-2 - SJS D1 champions (beat Folsom 56-25), beat Freedom for NorCal D1 (49-40), lost to Cathedral in D1 AA state championship (35-38)
2017-2018 - W/L 11-3 - lost to Folsom (section shanks) in SJS D1 championship game (21-50)
2018-19 - W/L 7-5 - lost to Folsom (section champs) in SJS D1 semi-finals (7-52)
2019-20 - W/L 6-5 - lost to Monterey Trail first round of SJS D1 playoffs (21-28)
2020-21 - W/L 3-1 COVID year only loss to DLS (27-35)
2021-22 - W/L 10-3 lost to Rocklin in SJS D1 semi-finals (48-51). BTW, beat Edison 29-23 in the quarter finals while Lincoln lost to Folsom in that same round. Yes, Lincoln choked vs St. Mary’s in their regular season game, which probably was their best chance to break up the losing streak to their crosstown rivals. How many games is it now?
2022-23 - W/L 10-1 including a win over DLS. Lost to Turlock first round in one of the biggest upsets in Rams history (50-51).

To summarize, in last 7 season excluding Covid season (2020-21), St. Mary’s has appeared in 2 D1 championship finals, winning 1 in 2016, in addition to making it to 3 semi-final rounds (total 5 out of 7). Outside of Folsom, please tell me which other SJS team has had this much success in SJS D1 playoffs during this timeframe. Definitely, NOT Lincoln or Edison of Stockton! Yet, you state St. Mary’s recent playoff history does NOT warrant being in D1 for playoffs. And yet, they win a D1 league year in and year out, as well. Maybe just maybe you don’t want the Rams D1 playoffs so Lincoln and Edison or other D1 school you’re a fan of doesn’t have to face them. 😂

It’s okay, just as Central Catholic has done, the Rams accept this assignment to play at the D2 playoffs for SJS. No guarantee, but confident the Rams will have even better success at the D2 level that will warrant them back into D1. No disrespect to the other D2 playoff teams, as there will be a challenge from the likes of Manteca and Del Oro and others. But, St. Mary’s never dodges challenges, NEVER! And not being able to challenge Folsom and Oak Ridge in D1 this year of all years is a bit disappointing. Nevertheless, the Rams have a challenge ahead against Manteca and will focus on this game vs worrying about where they land in the playoffs. They also have games vs DLS and Bishop Amat to challenge them. They won’t see any challenge from fellow TCAL teams this season. That’s a guarantee! But, maybe next season, when Edison joins … 😂

 

[BigMann08]

It looks like the D2 SJS playoff field will be better than D1.

St.Marys
Granite Bay
Rocklin
Manteca
Elk Grove
DO

 

[larry legend33]

It looks like the D2 SJS playoff field will be better than D1.

St.Marys
Granite Bay
Rocklin
Manteca
Elk Grove
DO

Sjs D2 is often loaded though. With exception of st marys aren’t all those other schools typically in D2 for playoffs?

 

[ararar]

Any system where losers still get to play is a slap in the face of true competition.The California playoff system as a whole is bad but NorCal insistence on participation trophies is truly ugly

 

[THEOC89]

Any system where losers still get to play is a slap in the face of true competition.The California playoff system as a whole is bad but NorCal insistence on participation trophies is truly ugly

To your point…. Since Serra has won the CCS like 5 or 6 years in a row, now all the Sudden the CCS wants a NCS style playoff format….

It’s like everyone is trying to get out in front of this so it doesn’t become another NCS-DLS situation…. 🤣

 

[RidgeRider]

and like clockwork, the Norcal football haters show up just in time, like they always do....I always wonder why they bother posting here???

 

[ararar]

and like clockwork, the Norcal football haters show up just in time, like they always do....I always wonder why they bother posting here???

You condone this travesty of competition?
NorCal has nothing to do with my hate.If socal stooped to such buffoonery I would call them out as well

 

[BigMann08]

Sjs D2 is often loaded though. With exception of st marys aren’t all those other schools typically in D2 for playoffs.

Agreed. My point is dropping down to D2 is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[larry legend33]

Agreed. My point is dropping down to D2 is not necessarily a bad thing.

Got it. Agreed.

 

[THEOC89]

and like clockwork, the Norcal football haters show up just in time, like they always do....I always wonder why they bother posting here???

HA!…. I am a Nor Cal Fan not a hater….. I just don’t understand such a Rediculous “Open” playoff bracket that includes the 2 worst teams and the 2 best teams and the loser of the game between the 2 best teams moves on….

Isn’t the premise of an open playoff to have the best play the best?….

You are an SJS guy, should the SJS adopt this playoff format because no one can beat Folsom in D1?….. If the NCS and now CCS are doing this, why not the SJS?….🍻

 

[bulldogmgc]

I disagree (with BigMann08 and Larry). Which team is the top dog in the SJS section and which division is this team in? If I have a team that I feel confident can challenge this team to be the best in the section, why take that opportunity away from my team. No disrespect to the teams in D2, but being asked to drop down to D2 is like competing for the consolation prize. In other words, I personally am disappointed that St. Mary’s does not get the opportunity to go after the real trophy, to be the best in the section. Maybe the Rams do not beat the likes of Folsom and/or Oak Ridge, but at least the Rams can feel they tried. Just feels like the rug has been pulled from under them. St. Mary’s has always strived to be the best, to compete against the best, in every sport. If D2 is so competitive (and it is) what’s left in D1? Sure, there is Folsom, Oak Ridge, Central Catholic, and Monterey Trail, but after that, who else. Sorry, imho, D1 has been watered down with the stepping down of St. Mary’s. Heck, Manteca should be in D1, too. Heckuva game coming up on Friday.

 

[THEOC89]

I disagree (with BigMann08 and Larry). Which team is the top dog in the SJS section and which division is this team in? If I have a team that I feel confident can challenge this team to be the best in the section, why take that opportunity away from my team. No disrespect to the teams in D2, but being asked to drop down to D2 is like competing for the consolation prize. In other words, I personally am disappointed that St. Mary’s does not get the opportunity to go after the real trophy, to be the best in the section. Maybe the Rams do not beat the likes of Folsom and/or Oak Ridge, but at least the Rams can feel they tried. Just feels like the rug has been pulled from under them. St. Mary’s has always strived to be the best, to compete against the best, in every sport. If D2 is so competitive (and it is) what’s left in D1? Sure, there is Folsom, Oak Ridge, Central Catholic, and Monterey Trail, but after that, who else. Sorry, imho, D1 has been watered down with the stepping down of St. Mary’s. Heck, Manteca should be in D1, too. Heckuva game coming up on Friday.

Terrific post!…. I have always thought of ST Mary’s as a D1 team and one of the top teams in the SJS… I agree, this waters down SJS D1….

It makes no sense that CC is D1 and ST Mary’s is not….

 

[MTsince2004]

The timing of this is a bit problematic for St. Mary's simply because they might be THE best team in the SJS. Certainly in the running for a Top 5 finish. If they never play the winner of D1, then it could hold them back in any conversation about the Open spot that might occur if other games were to break in their favor.

 

[ararar]

HA!…. I am a Nor Cal Fan not a hater….. I just don’t understand such a Rediculous “Open” playoff bracket that includes the 2 worst teams and the 2 best teams and the loser of the game between the 2 best teams moves on….

Isn’t the premise of an open playoff to have the best play the best?….

You are an SJS guy, should the SJS adopt this playoff format because no one can beat Folsom in D1?….. If the NCS and now CCS are doing this, why not the SJS?….🍻

Exactly.As the article stated if the SS let the MD SJB loser move on it would be a travesty.While we’re at it let’s just move Centennial down to D2 just because they need a trophy to.It’s ridiculous

 

[BigMann08]

I disagree (with BigMann08 and Larry). Which team is the top dog in the SJS section and which division is this team in? If I have a team that I feel confident can challenge this team to be the best in the section, why take that opportunity away from my team. No disrespect to the teams in D2, but being asked to drop down to D2 is like competing for the consolation prize. In other words, I personally am disappointed that St. Mary’s does not get the opportunity to go after the real trophy, to be the best in the section. Maybe the Rams do not beat the likes of Folsom and/or Oak Ridge, but at least the Rams can feel they tried. Just feels like the rug has been pulled from under them. St. Mary’s has always strived to be the best, to compete against the best, in every sport. If D2 is so competitive (and it is) what’s left in D1? Sure, there is Folsom, Oak Ridge, Central Catholic, and Monterey Trail, but after that, who else. Sorry, imho, D1 has been watered down with the stepping down of St. Mary’s. Heck, Manteca should be in D1, too. Heckuva game coming up on Friday.

The SJS never crowns a true best team. The issue is never settled on the field. (Which is ridiculous to me) The SJS playoffs aren’t set up or designed for the best teams to compete against one another. It’s never been that way… a lot of times the best teams are split across division 1 and Division 2. This year one of the better teams in the section will be in D3.

IMO, the section should have an Open Division where all of the top teams duke it out. But they intentionally shy away from it. You mentioned Manteca. They could have possibly been the best team in the section last season, at least in December. But they didn’t get a chance to play Folsom.

The good thing about the D2 playoffs is that it’s still regarded as a strong division when it comes to bowl selection and NorCal ratings.

An undefeated St.Mary’s would get Open Bowl consideration. (Impressive wins: DLS, SJS championships)

Case in point, you remember the 2008 playoffs. St. Mary’s was the Division 1 SJS champion and Grant was the D2 SJS champion, yet the Pacers played in the State Open game and St. Mary’s played in a lesser bowl game. This also proves that D1 and D2 are both viewed as strong divisions.
In summary last season:

St. Mary’s lost to Turlock.

Turlock beat St. Mary’s and Rocklin but lost to Manteca and Oak Ridge.

Manteca lost to Central Catholic but beat Turlock, Rocklin and Granite Bay.

Oak Ridge lost to Rocklin but beat Granite Bay and Del Oro.

Rocklin beat Oak Ridge but lost to Manteca, Turlock, and Del Oro.

Central Catholic beat Manteca and Monterey Trails but lost to St. Mary’s.

Del Oro beat Granite Bay and Rocklin but lost to Oak Ridge.

Granite Bay lost to Del Oro, Oak Ridge, Rocklin, and Manteca but revenged an earlier lost to Del Oro. They also barely lost to Oak Ridge….

Point being there’s a lot of parity between these schools.

I would have loved to see a SJS Open field of:
Folsom
St. Marys
Manteca
Oak Ridge
Granite Bay
Rocklin
Del Oro
Monterey Trails
Central Catholic
Turlock
Grant
Elk Grove

 

[bulldogmgc]

The SJS never crowns a true best team. The issue is never settled on the field. (Which is ridiculous to me) The SJS playoffs aren’t set up or designed for the best teams to compete against one another. It’s never been that way… a lot of times the best teams are split across division 1 and Division 2. This year one of the better teams in the section will be in D3.

IMO, the section should have an Open Division where all of the top teams duke it out. But they intentionally shy away from it. You mentioned Manteca. They could have possibly been the best team in the section last season, at least in December. But they didn’t get a chance to play Folsom.

The good thing about the D2 playoffs is that it’s still regarded as a strong division when it comes to bowl selection and NorCal ratings.

An undefeated St.Mary’s would get Open Bowl consideration. (Impressive wins: DLS, SJS championships)

Case in point, you remember the 2008 playoffs. St. Mary’s was the Division 1 SJS champion and Grant was the D2 SJS champion, yet the Pacers played in the State Open game and St. Mary’s played in a lesser bowl game. This also proves that D1 and D2 are both viewed as strong divisions.
In summary last season:

St. Mary’s lost to Turlock.

Turlock beat St. Mary’s and Rocklin but lost to Manteca and Oak Ridge.

Manteca lost to Central Catholic but beat Turlock, Rocklin and Granite Bay.

Oak Ridge lost to Rocklin but beat Granite Bay and Del Oro.

Rocklin beat Oak Ridge but lost to Manteca, Turlock, and Del Oro.

Central Catholic beat Manteca and Monterey Trails but lost to St. Mary’s.

Del Oro beat Granite Bay and Rocklin but lost to Oak Ridge.

Granite Bay lost to Del Oro, Oak Ridge, Rocklin, and Manteca but revenged an earlier lost to Del Oro. They also barely lost to Oak Ridge….

Point being there’s a lot of parity between these schools.

I would have loved to see a SJS Open field of:
Folsom
St. Marys
Manteca
Oak Ridge
Granite Bay
Rocklin
Del Oro
Monterey Trails
Central Catholic
Turlock
Grant
Elk Grove

This I very much agree! SJS has an Open field for basketball. So why not football? Let the best of the best battle it out on the field.

 

[BigMann08]

This I very much agree! SJS has an Open field for basketball. So why not football? Let the best of the best battle it out on the field.

Yeah, it sounds too much like right. The SJS needs a lot of improvement.

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

Yet, you state St. Mary’s recent playoff history does NOT warrant being in D1 for playoffs. And yet, they win a D1 league year in and year out, as well.

just stating facts.... the fact is, SM is, by enrollment and league placement, a D2 school for FB. They win the D1 league, so they play D1. But per SJS, they are not locked into D1. They have not met the criteria for sustained excellence that would lock them into D1, like Central Catholic. And if Lincoln wouldn't have given the game away 2 years ago, SM would've been in the D2 playoffs that year.

SJS has an Open field for basketball.

i really don't think this is true.

Sjs D2 is often loaded though. With exception of st marys aren’t all those other schools typically in D2 for playoffs?

Rocklin and GB are D2 enrollments in a D1 league. DO is D3/4 enrollment, D1 league, so lowest is D2. Manteca is in a D3 league and won 3 titles in a row, last year in D2, and are locked into D2 this year... they got bumped up due to sustained excellence, Rocklin was the SFL champ 2 yrs ago, so they played D1. Elk Grove is D3 enrollment in a D1 league... but not too long ago, they used to be bigger.. their enrollment has shrunk as CO, MT, and LC has grown.

That's how the SJS has been for a long time. They try to respect enrollments, and allow for some semblance of competitive equity, but slowly. It took many years for SM girls bkb to climb from D4 to D1.

 

[bulldogmgc]

just stating facts.... the fact is, SM is, by enrollment and league placement, a D2 school for FB. They win the D1 league, so they play D1. But per SJS, they are not locked into D1. They have not met the criteria for sustained excellence that would lock them into D1, like Central Catholic. And if Lincoln wouldn't have given the game away 2 years ago, SM would've been in the D2 playoffs that year.


i really don't think this is true.


Rocklin and GB are D2 enrollments in a D1 league. DO is D3/4 enrollment, D1 league, so lowest is D2. Manteca is in a D3 league and won 3 titles in a row, last year in D2, and are locked into D2 this year... they got bumped up due to sustained excellence, Rocklin was the SFL champ 2 yrs ago, so they played D1. Elk Grove is D3 enrollment in a D1 league... but not too long ago, they used to be bigger.. their enrollment has shrunk as CO, MT, and LC has grown.

That's how the SJS has been for a long time. They try to respect enrollments, and allow for some semblance of competitive equity, but slowly. It took many years for SM girls bkb to climb from D4 to D1.

Facts? The term is “Continued Success” not “sustained excellence”. Please refer to SJS Bylaw - Football 2207.8.f.4. And as much as you do not want to believe that St. Mary’s has satisfied this clause in the SJS Bylaw, the Rams have very much demonstrated “Continued Success” from seasons 2015 thru 2018 achieving 4 years in a row as semi-finalist, finalist, and/or champion. The Rams remain in D1 due to NOT failing to achieve being a semi-finalist 2 years in row and not failing to make the playoffs.

2019 - not a semi-finalist, but made the playoffs
2020 - Covid year (no playoffs) so scratch that season
2021 - St. Mary’s was a semi-finalist
2022 - not a semi-finalist, but made the playoffs

per 2207.8.f.4.i (not subject to a or b).

Based on these rules governed by this bylaw for Football Playoffs “Continued Success”, St. Mary’s this year and the year you “think” Lincoln handed the TCAL league championship to St. Mary’s (2021) losing 27-31 @ Lincoln (that was Rams defense at the end that won that game with those picks) are technically designated to remain in D1.

You don’t hear Rams fans saying we gave the 2021 semi-final game to Rocklin after leading most of the way. You won’t hear Rams fans saying we gave last year’s playoff game to Turlock after missing a FG late in the game and throwing an INT to end it. 4 quarters of football and Rocklin and Turlock (especially their QB and coaching staff) deserve all the credit in winning those games. The Rams LOST (no gifts provided).

And true in SJS basketball it is technically called D1, but the D1 division is comprised of an OPEN field of teams, as described in the CalHiSports article:

Modesto Chr boys win SJS “Open”​

By Mark Tennis
No, they don’t call the CIF Sac-Joaquin Section Division I boys basketball playoffs an Open Division bracket, but thanks to several years of the smaller private schools being moved up in divisions it’s just about the same as others that are officially labeled as open divisions. And the finishes over the past two years involving […]

And sure many years ago SM girls were winning D3 and D2 titles, but when the NorCal Open or State Open championships were introduced they would get slated into these brackets, just like the Joe Smith bracket in Nike TOCs. Now, they have fallen off a bit, still very good, but not great after Tom Gonzalves was asked to leave the program.

Placing St. Mary’s in D2 instead of D1 and taking away the opportunity to play Folsom and/or Oak Ridge would be an injustice should St. Mary’s win this Friday vs Manteca and in a few weeks vs DLS, as it would all but eliminate any chances for the Open or D1AA bracket. It’s already an injustice because they satisfy remaining in D1 based on the bylaw for the playoffs. I anticipate Coach Franks will be petitioning/appealing for his team to play in D1. I am hopeful the SJS governance board listens and accepts his appeal. But, it’s premature at this moment. Or is it? The Rams still need to finish the season which has only just begun. They have a big game this Friday vs Manteca. Continued succcess which has been established must continue. GO RAMS!!!

P.S. Here’s some hope for you wanting the Rams to move down to D2 … if this season they do NOT make it to the playoffs or do not make it to the semi-finals in D1, they fall out of the Continued Success categorization and drop to D2. Happy?

 

[MTsince2004]

The "Continued Success" rule is kinda "We do what makes sense at the time." Everything in that part is just an "example" of what they might consider.

Monterey Trail didn't fit any of the examples, but the Section locked the football team into D1. It makes sense since MT has almost always been at the D1 level and has been a top-10 large school over the last several years. When MT went on a tear in the 2021 playoffs in D2 after having been in the previous D1 championships in 2018 and 2019, I'm sure quite a few people saw that as inherently unfair.

Since the above is the case, then @bulldogmgc's arguments for St. Mary's in D1 are comparable.

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

I think it's funny he's so mad at me... I have no dog in the fight.

The "Continued Success" rule is kinda "We do what makes sense at the time." Everything in that part is just an "example" of what they might consider.

this, i understand... And supports what I'm saying. St. Marys has not done anything to prompt the section to lock them into D1. Maybe they think they win league every year anyways... and if they do somehow get into D2, it's still a good bracket for SM. So why bother? I don't know. But my point is, until the sjs uses this rule on a team, that team is subject to the enrollment/league designation for divisional placement. And St. Mary's under the previous format, has always been a D2 school that wins a D1 league. The enrollment sheet they put out every year always says, St. Marys can't be lower than D2.

seasons 2015 thru 2018 achieving 4 years in a row as semi-finalist, finalist, and/or champion.

let's dive into this:
2014: finalist in D2... this would've been the last year of the prior format.. .which didn't have the 'no lower than league division' provision.
2015: semi D1
2016: champ D1
2017 finalist D1
2018, lost in 2nd rd
2019, lost in 1st rd.

So... there is a case that they could've should've been bumped up to D1 after 2017. BUT, there is also a provision that if you miss the semi's 2 yrs in a row, you can be dropped back down. So.. even steven, huh? And, end of the day, doesn't matter, cuz they've won their D1 league forever... so They've been in D1 since the prior format was enacted.
And I'm telling you, if Lincoln would've beat them, won league, SM would've been D2 that year.

he Section locked the football team into D1. It makes sense since MT has almost always been at the D1 level and has been a top-10 large school over the last several years.

honestly, I'm not sure why the section felt the need to lock them into D1. They had 3 good years with zero championships. D2 is not unreasonable for them... but they've gotten bigger enrollment wise, so they would've been D1 no matter what now.

And true in SJS basketball it is technically called D1, but the D1 division is comprised of an OPEN field of teams,

no... it's D1, with schools that have demonstrated continued success. The last couple of years (in GBKB), Antelope and Laguna Creek had SJS 'open' type seasons. But they stayed in D2, due to the enrollment rules. And 2 years ago, Cosumnes Oaks won the Delta league, but were D2 enrollment, and got bounced by Folsom in the 2nd round by like 50. They were not Open worthy.

And sure many years ago SM girls were winning D3 and D2 titles, but when the NorCal Open or State Open championships were introduced they would get slated into these brackets,

you are conflating section with state. The state has always had different placement rules from the SJS.

SJS has ALWAYS been enrollment based. But even with state: The open was first introduced in 2013.
the year before, they were in D2 section, D2 state (lost to Mitty btw, a perennial open team)
2003 was their last D4 state title. so it took 10 full seasons, and they still weren't D1 in section or state. and mind you, they won section titles every one of those years.

I anticipate Coach Franks will be petitioning/appealing for his team to play in D1. I

that's not how it works.

Here’s some hope for you wanting the Rams to move down to D2 … if this season they do NOT make it to the playoffs or do not make it to the semi-finals in D1, they fall out of the Continued Success categorization and drop to D2. Happy?

you aren't paying attention. They are D2 this year, no matter what.

 

[BigMann08]

I think it's funny he's so mad at me... I have no dog in the fight.

this, i understand... And supports what I'm saying. St. Marys has not done anything to prompt the section to lock them into D1. Maybe they think they win league every year anyways... and if they do somehow get into D2, it's still a good bracket for SM. So why bother? I don't know. But my point is, until the sjs uses this rule on a team, that team is subject to the enrollment/league designation for divisional placement. And St. Mary's under the previous format, has always been a D2 school that wins a D1 league. The enrollment sheet they put out every year always says, St. Marys can't be lower than D2.


let's dive into this:
2014: finalist in D2... this would've been the last year of the prior format.. .which didn't have the 'no lower than league division' provision.
2015: semi D1
2016: champ D1
2017 finalist D1
2018, lost in 2nd rd
2019, lost in 1st rd.

So... there is a case that they could've should've been bumped up to D1 after 2017. BUT, there is also a provision that if you miss the semi's 2 yrs in a row, you can be dropped back down. So.. even steven, huh? And, end of the day, doesn't matter, cuz they've won their D1 league forever... so They've been in D1 since the prior format was enacted.
And I'm telling you, if Lincoln would've beat them, won league, SM would've been D2 that year.


honestly, I'm not sure why the section felt the need to lock them into D1. They had 3 good years with zero championships. D2 is not unreasonable for them... but they've gotten bigger enrollment wise, so they would've been D1 no matter what now.

no... it's D1, with schools that have demonstrated continued success. The last couple of years (in GBKB), Antelope and Laguna Creek had SJS 'open' type seasons. But they stayed in D2, due to the enrollment rules. And 2 years ago, Cosumnes Oaks won the Delta league, but were D2 enrollment, and got bounced by Folsom in the 2nd round by like 50. They were not Open worthy.

you are conflating section with state. The state has always had different placement rules from the SJS.

SJS has ALWAYS been enrollment based. But even with state: The open was first introduced in 2013.
the year before, they were in D2 section, D2 state (lost to Mitty btw, a perennial open team)
2003 was their last D4 state title. so it took 10 full seasons, and they still weren't D1 in section or state. and mind you, they won section titles every one of those years.


that's not how it works.


you aren't paying attention. They are D2 this year, no matter what.

SJS hasn’t always been enrollment based. I think that’s where a lot of the confusion comes from. They’ve always made exceptions.

 

[Macallan]

Looking at the bylaws, St. Mary's doesn't fit the "continued success" rules to play in D1 like Central Catholic does. Additionally, MT's enrollment (solely) has placed them in D1 in 2022 and will again in 2023. Those are facts.

With that said, St. Mary's should be competing in D1 every year until the "continued success" rules dictate they move down based, upon enrollment (read: they lose consistently in the playoffs or don't make the playoffs...which is unlikely given St. Mary's current trajectory). They have, IMO, continued success in D1 playoffs over the past, almost, 20 years. St. Mary's has three times as many section championships as Lincoln (the highest enrollment in the SJS for several years running) has wins against St. Mary's in the past 20 years.

With all of that said, the SJS playoffs are broken. IMO, the recent rule change regarding division placement does not help matters.

 

[MTsince2004]

Fun talk. Appreciate all the insights.

 

[THEOC89]

I think it's funny he's so mad at me... I have no dog in the fight.

this, i understand... And supports what I'm saying. St. Marys has not done anything to prompt the section to lock them into D1. Maybe they think they win league every year anyways... and if they do somehow get into D2, it's still a good bracket for SM. So why bother? I don't know. But my point is, until the sjs uses this rule on a team, that team is subject to the enrollment/league designation for divisional placement. And St. Mary's under the previous format, has always been a D2 school that wins a D1 league. The enrollment sheet they put out every year always says, St. Marys can't be lower than D2.


let's dive into this:
2014: finalist in D2... this would've been the last year of the prior format.. .which didn't have the 'no lower than league division' provision.
2015: semi D1
2016: champ D1
2017 finalist D1
2018, lost in 2nd rd
2019, lost in 1st rd.

So... there is a case that they could've should've been bumped up to D1 after 2017. BUT, there is also a provision that if you miss the semi's 2 yrs in a row, you can be dropped back down. So.. even steven, huh? And, end of the day, doesn't matter, cuz they've won their D1 league forever... so They've been in D1 since the prior format was enacted.
And I'm telling you, if Lincoln would've beat them, won league, SM would've been D2 that year.


honestly, I'm not sure why the section felt the need to lock them into D1. They had 3 good years with zero championships. D2 is not unreasonable for them... but they've gotten bigger enrollment wise, so they would've been D1 no matter what now.

no... it's D1, with schools that have demonstrated continued success. The last couple of years (in GBKB), Antelope and Laguna Creek had SJS 'open' type seasons. But they stayed in D2, due to the enrollment rules. And 2 years ago, Cosumnes Oaks won the Delta league, but were D2 enrollment, and got bounced by Folsom in the 2nd round by like 50. They were not Open worthy.

you are conflating section with state. The state has always had different placement rules from the SJS.

SJS has ALWAYS been enrollment based. But even with state: The open was first introduced in 2013.
the year before, they were in D2 section, D2 state (lost to Mitty btw, a perennial open team)
2003 was their last D4 state title. so it took 10 full seasons, and they still weren't D1 in section or state. and mind you, they won section titles every one of those years.


that's not how it works.


you aren't paying attention. They are D2 this year, no matter what.

I think what doesn’t make any sense is why is Central Cathloic D1 and ST Mary’s is now D2….

CC was D3 until 2016 and won 1 D2 Championship in 2021…. How does that make them D1?….

ST Mary’s won D1 in 2016, wins a D1 league every year and is Competitive in D1 playoffs and has a larger enrollment….

So like most of the things the CIF does, this makes no sense…. 🤣

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

the year you “think” Lincoln handed the TCAL league championship to St. Mary’s (2021) losing 27-31 @ Lincoln (that was Rams defense at the end that won that game with those picks) are technically designated to remain in D1.

1. they weren't technically designated to remain in D1. the continued success rule was not applied to them (which again, as MT points out, seems to be at the whims of the section office)

2. if you don't think Lincoln had that thing wrapped up and was "running the clock out" away from the league title.. you need to take off your homer glasses. any armchair qb could tell you, run the ball. don't call a passing play. time is on your side. if lincoln punts, sm gets the ball back with under 45 sec left... with no timeouts. ... well, let this guy tell how it went:

https://norcalpreps.forums.rivals.com/threads/game-scores.26096/post-284760

Then it happened. Lincoln’s inside their 30 was under pressure and gifted an INT to the Rams.

🤣

 

[bulldogmgc]

I think it's funny he's so mad at me... I have no dog in the fight.

this, i understand... And supports what I'm saying. St. Marys has not done anything to prompt the section to lock them into D1. Maybe they think they win league every year anyways... and if they do somehow get into D2, it's still a good bracket for SM. So why bother? I don't know. But my point is, until the sjs uses this rule on a team, that team is subject to the enrollment/league designation for divisional placement. And St. Mary's under the previous format, has always been a D2 school that wins a D1 league. The enrollment sheet they put out every year always says, St. Marys can't be lower than D2.


let's dive into this:
2014: finalist in D2... this would've been the last year of the prior format.. .which didn't have the 'no lower than league division' provision.
2015: semi D1
2016: champ D1
2017 finalist D1
2018, lost in 2nd rd
2019, lost in 1st rd.

So... there is a case that they could've should've been bumped up to D1 after 2017. BUT, there is also a provision that if you miss the semi's 2 yrs in a row, you can be dropped back down. So.. even steven, huh? And, end of the day, doesn't matter, cuz they've won their D1 league forever... so They've been in D1 since the prior format was enacted.
And I'm telling you, if Lincoln would've beat them, won league, SM would've been D2 that year.


honestly, I'm not sure why the section felt the need to lock them into D1. They had 3 good years with zero championships. D2 is not unreasonable for them... but they've gotten bigger enrollment wise, so they would've been D1 no matter what now.

no... it's D1, with schools that have demonstrated continued success. The last couple of years (in GBKB), Antelope and Laguna Creek had SJS 'open' type seasons. But they stayed in D2, due to the enrollment rules. And 2 years ago, Cosumnes Oaks won the Delta league, but were D2 enrollment, and got bounced by Folsom in the 2nd round by like 50. They were not Open worthy.

you are conflating section with state. The state has always had different placement rules from the SJS.

SJS has ALWAYS been enrollment based. But even with state: The open was first introduced in 2013.
the year before, they were in D2 section, D2 state (lost to Mitty btw, a perennial open team)
2003 was their last D4 state title. so it took 10 full seasons, and they still weren't D1 in section or state. and mind you, they won section titles every one of those years.


that's not how it works.


you aren't paying attention. They are D2 this year, no matter what.

You are WRONG!

2018-19 - W/L 7-5 - lost to Folsom (section champs) in SJS D1 semi-finals (7-52) … not the second round. They had a bye first round, beat Sheldon in the 2nd round and faced Folsom 3rd round (semi-finals).

Hence, bylaw for Continued Success achieved.

🎤 drop!!! 😂

 

[LecheDeMiPalo]

Where are the state games being played this year?

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

SJS hasn’t always been enrollment based. I think that’s where a lot of the confusion comes from. They’ve always made exceptions.

enrollment has always been the starting point. And continues to be the starting point. They have the continued success rule to have a slow leak toward competitive equity.

Like I said earlier, SM G BKB took 11 years to go from D4 to D1

 

[bulldogmgc]

Looking at the bylaws, St. Mary's doesn't fit the "continued success" rules to play in D1 like Central Catholic does. Additionally, MT's enrollment (solely) has placed them in D1 in 2022 and will again in 2023. Those are facts.

With that said, St. Mary's should be competing in D1 every year until the "continued success" rules dictate they move down based, upon enrollment (read: they lose consistently in the playoffs or don't make the playoffs...which is unlikely given St. Mary's current trajectory). They have, IMO, continued success in D1 playoffs over the past, almost, 20 years. St. Mary's has three times as many section championships as Lincoln (the highest enrollment in the SJS for several years running) has wins against St. Mary's in the past 20 years.

With all of that said, the SJS playoffs are broken. IMO, the recent rule change regarding division placement does not help matters.

Look again, please, and please share why St. Mary’s did NOT satisfy Continued Success. If you are using assessment from salgovernaleisaturtle, you are being misled. His/her information on 2018 is WRONG. As I have shared, 4 years continued success was achieved and the Rams have not failed to miss the playoffs or miss being in the semi-finals 2 years in a row. Hence, they remain in D1.

In regards to SJS playoffs being a mess, 100% agree.

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

You are WRONG!

2018-19 - W/L 7-5 - lost to Folsom (section champs) in SJS D1 semi-finals (7-52) … not the second round. They had a bye first round, beat Sheldon in the 2nd round and faced Folsom 3rd round (semi-finals).

Hence, bylaw for Continued Success achieved.

🎤 drop!!! 😂

forgot the 1st rd byes....

the following year, they lost their first game, in the 2nd round.

and like I said, there should've could've been the bump up. But for whatever reason, they didn't.

who knows why... but that matters.. cuz they would've gone D2 if they didn't win league.