Division III: Campolindo vs. Rosary Academy

[jazzpt55]

Notice I said if she works hard this summer...gets the right trainer ....
Ahhhh....don't parse the post....
....
High D1....she has only been playing for two years...her potential ....ceiling. ...is something to consider....let's say she
Has only been playing At 25% of her potential right now. ..? I Want to get her to 50% by the time summer starts....75% by the start of next season.....so three times the player she is right now...

She could blow it up with the right help

 

[jaymel911]

Not sure I agree with coach having them ready to play. The D3 was by far the weakest game of the six divisions on display in Sacramento. Campolindo's inability to defend with a basic man to man defense cost them a state title. Rosary finished 4-4 in their league in so cal.

 

[ClayK]

Campolindo should be very strong next year, and like most quality teams will either be Open or Division I in NorCals. They stay D3 in NCS, and will battle Salesian, SMB and Cardinal Newman in section play -- so I think they have to win D3 (and have a good overall record) to go Open.

I would say the NCS D1 (Carondelet and Heritage), D2 (Miramonte and O'Dowd) and D3 winners will all be Open. The runnerups will all be D1 in NorCals.

 

[Paytc]

Campolindo should be very strong next year, and like most quality teams will either be Open or Division I in NorCals. They stay D3 in NCS, and will battle Salesian, SMB and Cardinal Newman in section play -- so I think they have to win D3 (and have a good overall record) to go Open.

I would say the NCS D1 (Carondelet and Heritage), D2 (Miramonte and O'Dowd) and D3 winners will all be Open. The runnerups will all be D1 in NorCals.

Makes you wonder if any team will be intentionally trying to tank? Because for some reason teams want to get things the easiest way and fear things they shouldn't fear IMO. I grew up in a different era for sure. But when kids get things without earning it and politics gets in the way of integrity, you get poor leadership, under achievers, and fake champions, who never really get tested.

Congratulations to all the teams that worked hard to get to and for a select few win the state championship.

 

[outlook18]

I would say the NCS D1 (Carondelet and Heritage), D2 (Miramonte and O'Dowd) and D3 winners will all be Open. The runnerups will all be D1 in NorCals.

Clay are you saying that CIF will change things next year and teams will be shuffled for NorCal; moving quality teams from D2 and D3 into D1 for the NorCal playoffs?

 

[ClayK]

That's the plan: Each section will submit its NorCal teams in ranked order, and then the NorCal committee will place them in divisions and seed them.

It's possible, of course, that sections will simply submit their division champions in order -- D1 first down to D5, and then D1 runnersup down to D5, but from all appearances, the lists are more nuanced than that.

In the end, though, it's a committee decision, so if NCS, say, submits Carondelet as its No. 1 team with O'Dowd having a better record and winning D2, then the committee would likely overrule the section submission.

But of course, you never know.

Bottom line: The top 24 teams in Northern California will be Open or Division 1, more or less. And No. 25 will be very happy in D2.

 

[ClayK]

Makes you wonder if any team will be intentionally trying to tank? Because for some reason teams want to get things the easiest way and fear things they shouldn't fear IMO. I grew up in a different era for sure. But when kids get things without earning it and politics gets in the way of integrity you get poor leadership, under achievers, and fake champions, who never really get tested.

I think the teams in the top four of the Open and the top six or so in Division I are fine with that placement. I think the seventh and eighth seeds in the Open would prefer to be in Division I, and I don't blame them. Realistically, they have no chance to win an Open title, but would be very competitive in Division I. (Again, if CIF would reward all Open participants in some way, it might alleviate that ...)

And given that there is probably minimal difference between seeds 12 through 16 in Division I and seeds 1 through 5 in Division II, there is obviously reason to prefer having a chance to win a state title by being in Division II rather than be overmatched in D1.

But no system is perfect, and no matter how you do it, the bottom seeds in any division will not have much of a chance to win a state title, while the top seeds will have a much better chance.

The best seeds in terms of winning a state title are No.1, No. 9 and No. 25.

 

[Scoutus32]

I think the teams in the top four of the Open and the top six or so in Division I are fine with that placement. I think the seventh and eighth seeds in the Open would prefer to be in Division I, and I don't blame them. Realistically, they have no chance to win an Open title, but would be very competitive in Division I. (Again, if CIF would reward all Open participants in some way, it might alleviate that ...)

And given that there is probably minimal difference between seeds 12 through 16 in Division I and seeds 1 through 5 in Division II, there is obviously reason to prefer having a chance to win a state title by being in Division II rather than be overmatched in D1.

But no system is perfect, and no matter how you do it, the bottom seeds in any division will not have much of a chance to win a state title, while the top seeds will have a much better chance.

The best seeds in terms of winning a state title are No.1, No. 9 and No. 25.

Clay who is your preseason top 5 in Norcal

 

[ClayK]

It's early, of course, but I think St. Mary's of Stockton, Archbishop Mitty, Pinewood, Campolindo, Oak Ridge and Salesian all have to get serious consideration.

That's just off the top of my head because I haven't looked at rosters to see who's returning. To name just one, Lincoln of Stockton could be pretty good if everyone's back. I think Heritage returns everyone, but I don't really know them, or a lot of teams.

 

[CamAca]

It's early, of course, but I think St. Mary's of Stockton, Archbishop Mitty, Pinewood, Campolindo, Oak Ridge and Salesian all have to get serious consideration.

That's just off the top of my head because I haven't looked at rosters to see who's returning. To name just one, Lincoln of Stockton could be pretty good if everyone's back. I think Heritage returns everyone, but I don't really know them, or a lot of teams.

Lincoln of Stockton graduates its best two players.

 

[Scoutus32]

It's early, of course, but I think St. Mary's of Stockton, Archbishop Mitty, Pinewood, Campolindo, Oak Ridge and Salesian all have to get serious consideration.

That's just off the top of my head because I haven't looked at rosters to see who's returning. To name just one, Lincoln of Stockton could be pretty good if everyone's back. I think Heritage returns everyone, but I don't really know them, or a lot of teams.

Good list. Carondelet and BOD are loaded also.

 

[observer22]

What? No mention of Miramonte?

 

[Scoutus32]

What? No mention of Miramonte?

Miramonte will be in the mix without a doubt.

 

[ClayK]

I'd love to say Miramonte is top five, but we lose one of our two best players in Elle Louie.

I think Carondelet loses a couple key seniors, though they have a lot back, and O'Dowd, like Miramonte, loses its senior leader, Myah Pace.

All three could be very good, of course, but they don't have as much firepower coming back as the others, I don't think.

 

[Paytc]

Everybody knew Campo was a year away this season

A year away? Perhaps. I thought they were capable of playing much better which could have put them in position to make it a much better game. And if they would have shot the ball a bit better they may have been in a closer position to win.

I think Campolindo like most every other team knows opportunities don't always present themselves because so many things need to come together to make it to a state championship game. And they intended to seize the moment. I've always said you can't guarantee a performance. Because you can't guarantee your shots will be on from game to game. That's why you need to improve all players and all areas of your team.

I agree Campo should be a very capable and confident team next season.

 

[Scoutus32]

I'd love to say Miramonte is top five, but we lose one of our two best players in Elle Louie.

I think Carondelet loses a couple key seniors, though they have a lot back, and O'Dowd, like Miramonte, loses its senior leader, Myah Pace.

All three could be very good, of course, but they don't have as much firepower coming back as the others, I don't think.

Carondelet is in good shape. One can argue their two best players return, at least on paper. Their bench is deep at every position.

 

[Paytc]

Carondelet is in good shape. One can argue their two best players return, at least on paper. Their bench is deep at every position.

Carondelet will lose two key starters with one being the most consistent and complete player on the team. But they have a few players ready to step up and contribute. The team depth IMO won't be as good as in the past unless a transfer or a few quality freshman come join the team. The issue with Carondelet will be getting max effort and max contribution on both sides of the ball from more than 1 or 2 players consistently. And of course improvement in the ball rotation, unselfishness, and half court offense. Most likely they will do exactly about what they've done the past 10 years. But they may eventually lose a league game or two as other teams get better and close the gap. It's competing with top non league elite teams that needs attention to that detail IMO. Perhaps the team will be ready to take the next step? Just hard to say as the team chemistry has gotten better each season in the past three years. And like Clovis West there is just better team unity when kids like and respect one another with less ego and division. So the team chemistry and team production could improve enough to once again pull off an upset or two. We hope so anyway.

 

[jaymel911]

Carondelet will lose two key starters with one being the most consistent and complete player on the team. But they have a few players ready to step up and contribute. The team depth IMO won't be as good as in the past unless a transfer or a few quality freshman come join the team. The issue with Carondelet will be getting max effort and max contribution on both sides of the ball from more than 1 or 2 players consistently. And of course improvement in the ball rotation, unselfishness, and half court offense. Most likely they will do exactly about what they've done the past 10 years. But they may eventually lose a league game or two as other teams get better and close the gap. It's competing with top non league teams that needs attention to that detail. Perhaps the team will be ready to take the next step? Just hard to say as the team chemistry has gotten better each season in the past three years. There is just better team unity when kids like and respect one another with less ego and division. So the team chemistry and team production could improve enough to once again pull off an upset or two.

Is now the time to refresh my comments a few weeks back that Carondelet have not won a tough game in recent memory?

 

[Scoutus32]

Carondelet will lose two key starters with one being the most consistent and complete player on the team. But they have a few players ready to step up and contribute. The team depth IMO won't be as good as in the past unless a transfer or a few quality freshman come join the team. The issue with Carondelet will be getting max effort and max contribution on both sides of the ball from more than 1 or 2 players consistently. And of course improvement in the ball rotation, unselfishness, and half court offense. Most likely they will do exactly about what they've done the past 10 years. But they may eventually lose a league game or two as other teams get better and close the gap. It's competing with top non league teams that needs attention to that detail. Perhaps the team will be ready to take the next step? Just hard to say as the team chemistry has gotten better each season in the past three years. There is just better team unity when kids like and respect one another with less ego and division. So the team chemistry and team production could improve enough to once again pull off an upset or two.

It does not look like all your parents will get your wish of a new coach either.

 

[Paytc]

Is now the time to refresh my comments a few weeks back that Carondelet have not won a tough game in recent memory?

Only if you want me to remind you of the only upset I recall them winning in the past 5 or 6 years that I know about which was winning this past January upsetting SMS at SMS. But I agree with you that Carondelet has not been doing anything special in all of its 50 years. In those years to my knowledge they have 1 state championship when Jane Appel attended Carondelet.

But the school seems to be very satisfied dominating league play each year and winning NCS most of the time. Upsets and state championships do not appear to be goals. And those things are hard to reach when the team has too much delusional super star attitude and selfish culture. Higher standards and changing cultures have to come from the top. We can't put that responsibility on children.

Carondelet and everyone else can take a page off of CW if they want to see a "team" who works well together. No so call super stars. Where any player on the team can contribute at any given time. They often have multiple players in double digits if not every game.That is why they have greater odds of winning because you can't game plan to shut down 1 or 2 players who may or may not be hot anyway. Or for a better example watch UConn.

And CW seems to get it right knowing this experience is about building every players confidence, getting better as individuals and a team. Developing and trusting unselfish on the floor leadership. While winning and losing together as a team.

 

[OnBall8]

Carondelet and everyone else can take a page off of CW if they want to see a "team" who works well together. No so call super stars. Where any player on the team can contribute at any given time. They often have multiple players in double digits if not every game.That is why they have greater odds of winning because you can't game plan to shut down 1 or 2 players who may or may not be hot anyway. Or for a better example watch UConn.

And CW seems to get it right knowing this experience is about building every players confidence, getting better as individuals and a team. Developing and trusting unselfish on the floor leadership. While winning and losing together as a team.

Despite the loss, I think if you swapped "Mitty" in for CW it would still be very true.

 

[Paytc]

It does not look like all your parents will get your wish of a new coach either.

That's pretty funny. I guess they'll need to adopt the "Win Anyway" philosophy. Since things that are not in the children's or parents hands will remain in the hands of the school. And the school sets the standards. If they want goals to include pulling off upsets and beating non league quality teams more often then the school A.D. or whoever makes the call will be making that a priority. If not, since the present coach is living up to the present standards, there is no need for a change of coach. And if they raise the expectations and standards under the present coach then and only then will a conversation of changing coaches even need to be had IMO.

As I said when Carondelet loss in the first round at home by 1 point.... Carondelet only did what 15 out of 16 teams were gonna do anyway. Sure you want to win every game, but who does that? (Ok.... but UConn doesn't count) That is why I say focusing on developing areas on the team and players on the team, building individual and team confidence, and improving, should be the focus of attention, not winning. Because you can't skip the steps it takes to win big games or win without the attention to detail. Especially when you are winning league and/or easy games and developing this false sense of how good you are. Everything starts at the top. Those are the folks that make the calls. Meanwhile you make the best of each circumstance instead of a million excuses.

 

[ClayK]

Replacing Elgin Leslie -- or Clay Kallam or anyone -- for a perceived lack of wins makes sense only if an obviously better option is available, and if wins are the primary criterion for success. Elgin Leslie is a successful high school girls' basketball coach with a long record of achievement and no negative issues, so who exactly would take his place that would significantly improve the program?

As Paytc points out, winning a section championship and losing by one in the first round of NorCal Open is hardly a bad year -- and what would be considered significant improvement? Winning one more game? Winning two? Or is anything less than a state title worthy of dismissal?

And remember, stats show over and over again that one-point games are essentially decided by luck, so on top of the above questions, does a coach deserve to be fired for having bad luck?

 

[Scoutus32]

Elgin Leslie is a successful high school girls' basketball coach with a long record of achievement and no negative issues, so who exactly would take his place that would significantly improve the program?
?

As they say on espn, COME ON MAN. You know who Clay. That ship may have sailed when they would not talk to him last year. Most of the parents are begging for him to come now. The only reason I know is I'm close with 3-4 families from AAU ball.

 

[SouthBayHoopFan]

As they say on espn, COME ON MAN. You know who Clay.

I assume you're talking about Steve Kerr.

 

[outlook18]

Come on guys, this was a thread about Campo and Rosary. Why do some people always hijack these conversations so they can talk about their own issues. If you want to complain about your schools team or team's coach start your own thread.

 

[OnBall8]

why does it matter where it happens?? Like you said they always do it. Its a message board and it was in the natural flow of the convo for the most part. Don't like it, dont read it

 

[mkbgdns]

Carondelet has not been doing anything special in all of its 50 years

typical statement from the Chairman of the Department of Arrogance and Generalities. special things happen on teams that don't win any games. to give girls a chance to play basketball is to do something special.

before your daughter was born (you don't hide your disgruntled parent self as well as you think) my daughter attended a summer girls' basketball camp at Carondelet. Coach Gartner was doing something special, as were the girls on the team who were helping her. were you asleep during your 50-year scrutiny of the program? since 2000, when I started to follow high school girls' basketball, Carondelet has been one of the premiere programs in the East Bay.

 

[jaymel911]

Only if you want me to remind you of the only upset I recall them winning in the past 5 or 6 years that I know about which was winning this past January upsetting SMS at SMS. But I agree with you that Carondelet has not been doing anything special in all of its 50 years. In those years to my knowledge they have 1 state championship when Jane Appel attended Carondelet.

But the school seems to be very satisfied dominating league play each year and winning NCS most of the time. Upsets and state championships do not appear to be goals. And those things are hard to reach when the team has too much delusional super star attitude and selfish culture. Higher standards and changing cultures have to come from the top. We can't put that responsibility on children.

Carondelet and everyone else can take a page off of CW if they want to see a "team" who works well together. No so call super stars. Where any player on the team can contribute at any given time. They often have multiple players in double digits if not every game.That is why they have greater odds of winning because you can't game plan to shut down 1 or 2 players who may or may not be hot anyway. Or for a better example watch UConn.

And CW seems to get it right knowing this experience is about building every players confidence, getting better as individuals and a team. Developing and trusting unselfish on the floor leadership. While winning and losing together as a team.

In the last ten years the only game carondelet has won when they were an underdog was a mid season upset at SM Stockton? A SM Stockton team not at full strength and in the midst of the most adversity that had experienced in 20+ years? I am still not calling that an upset but even if it qualified that is it. Classic case of underachievers.

That stated, I FEEL Carondelet is the #1 or #2 team returning in Nor Cal.

 

[Scoutus32]

In the last ten years the only game carondelet has won when they were an underdog was a mid season upset at SM Stockton? A SM Stockton team not at full strength and in the midst of the most adversity that had experienced in 20+ years? I am still not calling that an upset but even if it qualified that is it. Classic case of underachievers.

That stated, I FEEL Carondelet is the #1 or #2 team returning in Nor Cal.

SMS was at full strength. This was pre AD going down. They won games with Romeo they were clear underdogs in also.

 

[DelValleTrojan]

Not sure I agree with coach having them ready to play. The D3 was by far the weakest game of the six divisions on display in Sacramento. Campolindo's inability to defend with a basic man to man defense cost them a state title. Rosary finished 4-4 in their league in so cal.

Back to Campolindo.

Jaymel911, I respectfully disagree with your root cause analysis. Coach Thoms did have the girls prepped and ready to play, but the girls on their own have to go out and execute and score points. Haley Van Dyke missed her first 9 shots. That’s 18 points. Those points alone would have changed the entire dynamics of the game. All of the girls including Haley could not find the touch, rhythm, or range and shot poorly from the field. The girls had plenty of open looks. A team either figures out the touch, rhythm, and range or they don’t. If they don’t, they struggle to put points on the board. Rosary shot close to 50% from the 3 point line. They Rosary figured it out. Implementing a man to man defense by Campolindo could have possibly disrupted Rosary’s offense, but I don’t know if that would have changed the outcome of the game. It’s just unfortunate Campolindo ran cold for pretty much all 4 quarters. Campolindo is a much better team in all facets of the game than they showed in the Div. III final. They just didn’t have it that day.

Now returning back the discussion about Carondelet.

 

[ClayK]

So is the primary measure of a team's success its ability to pull off upsets?

Again, one can talk about programs in many different ways, but if the only thing that can bring Carondelet down is a perception that they don't win games they're supposed to lose, then I'd call that a reach. And of course, they're seldom the underdog so the opportunities are rare. (When was the last time they lost a league game, much less weren't favored?)

Year in and year out, since the mid-'90s, Carondelet has always been one of the best programs east of the tunnel. No other team has matched that consistency, and to me, that counts for a lot.

I'm sure there is, and was, talk of getting Kelly Sopak to leave Miramonte and come to Carondelet, but I'm pretty sure that won't happen -- if only because his daughter Leah is a freshman at Miramonte and would have to sit out a year if she transferred.

 

[Paytc]

typical statement from the Chairman of the Department of Arrogance and Generalities. special things happen on teams that don't win any games. to give girls a chance to play basketball is to do something special.

before your daughter was born (you don't hide your disgruntled parent self as well as you think) my daughter attended a summer girls' basketball camp at Carondelet. Coach Gartner was doing something special, as were the girls on the team who were helping her. were you asleep during your 50-year scrutiny of the program? since 2000, when I started to follow high school girls' basketball, Carondelet has been one of the premiere programs in the East Bay.

When you have superior talent than others in the league you're not doing anything special in terms of winning league play. You are living up to expectations. There is always room for improvement. And I am far from disgruntal because girls basketball is a minor part of life, education, and livelihood. Just because I speak truthfully in a P.C. driven world, I'm not the bad guy here. And I have always said "to my knowledge" Carondelet hasn't done anything special. If you or anyone else knows about the special things please share them. I think Carondelet can achieve even more than they have.

I haven't said anything about anyone or any school that wasn't truthful. And I always thought adults were allowed to be truthful and discuss things that they weren't always in agreement with as adults. But just read around my comments and there are folks personally putting other folks and teams down, and you have problems with my comments? And just because someone enjoys winning and sharing what they think will help their team win doesn't make them disgruntle. Because disgruntle is far from what I am. The changes I would most like to see are in results and that's not to discredit anything or anyone personally.

What's Too Short's favorite word?

 

[observer22]

So is the primary measure of a team's success its ability to pull off upsets?

Again, one can talk about programs in many different ways, but if the only thing that can bring Carondelet down is a perception that they don't win games they're supposed to lose, then I'd call that a reach. And of course, they're seldom the underdog so the opportunities are rare. (When was the last time they lost a league game, much less weren't favored?).

Didn't they lose to Monte Vista a couple of years back when MV won NCS D1?

 

[Paytc]

So is the primary measure of a team's success its ability to pull off upsets?

Again, one can talk about programs in many different ways, but if the only thing that can bring Carondelet down is a perception that they don't win games they're supposed to lose, then I'd call that a reach. And of course, they're seldom the underdog so the opportunities are rare. (When was the last time they lost a league game, much less weren't favored?)

Year in and year out, since the mid-'90s, Carondelet has always been one of the best programs east of the tunnel. No other team has matched that consistency, and to me, that counts for a lot.

I'm sure there is, and was, talk of getting Kelly Sopak to leave Miramonte and come to Carondelet, but I'm pretty sure that won't happen -- if only because his daughter Leah is a freshman at Miramonte and would have to sit out a year if she transferred.

No the primary measure of success IMO (and we are all entitled to our own opinions whether others agree or not) that is why it's called and opinion, is exceeding expectations based on what is given, not just living up to expectations. And wanting to do better than you have ever done is called setting higher goals and larger expectations. Why play the game if your not trying to reach for your best? Again this is my opinion. Some will agree and some won't get it. Then others on the outside at other schools most likely don't care to see the team get better. I understand the need for those attacks too. Divide and conquer, old trick.

 

[ClayK]

Play the game to learn, play the game to have fun, play the game to enjoy your friends and mentors ...

Being the best you can be takes an incredible effort and focus, and I'm not sure that devoting all of your energy to girls' high school basketball is a reasonable allocation of energy. I know I could have been a better basketball coach if I had not written about science fiction, written about music, acted in plays, read philosophy, taken walks with my wife, paid attention to politics, followed developments in science, and so on.

There's a saying that it takes a certain amount of effort to get 90% of your potential -- and it takes just as much effort to get from 90% to 95%, and that same effort again to get to 98%.

Is achievement in one area worth that much devotion, whether it be basketball or making money or creating art or studying ancient history? For me, the answer has always been no, but of course others choose differently -- and it must be said that the great achievers, those who pushed humanity forward, are the ones who had that laser focus.

 

[outlook18]

why does it matter where it happens?? Like you said they always do it. Its a message board and it was in the natural flow of the convo for the most part. Don't like it, dont read it

It was would just make it easier for people to read what they want to read and follow the conversations about schools they are interest in. There would probably be several people who have something to say about the CLET program but are not inputting because they aren't reading this thread since it is supposed to be about Campo and not CLET.
It is pretty obvious from all that is being said about CLET that it could use a thread of its own

 

[jaymel911]

SMS was at full strength. This was pre AD going down. They won games with Romeo they were clear underdogs in also.

Name one BIG game in 10 years that Carondelet has WON when they were clear underdogs? I don't count SMS mid season with Decosta hobbled, Murray out and the ship taking massive amounts of water. If SMS would have been the #7 seed how bad would they have beaten Carondelet?

 

[jaymel911]

Back to Campolindo.

Jaymel911, I respectfully disagree with your root cause analysis. Coach Thoms did have the girls prepped and ready to play, but the girls on their own have to go out and execute and score points. Haley Van Dyke missed her first 9 shots. That’s 18 points. Those points alone would have changed the entire dynamics of the game. All of the girls including Haley could not find the touch, rhythm, or range and shot poorly from the field. The girls had plenty of open looks. A team either figures out the touch, rhythm, and range or they don’t. If they don’t, they struggle to put points on the board. Rosary shot close to 50% from the 3 point line. They Rosary figured it out. Implementing a man to man defense by Campolindo could have possibly disrupted Rosary’s offense, but I don’t know if that would have changed the outcome of the game. It’s just unfortunate Campolindo ran cold for pretty much all 4 quarters. Campolindo is a much better team in all facets of the game than they showed in the Div. III final. They just didn’t have it that day.

Zone zone zone zone = open 3 open 3 open 3 open 3

Did campolindo ever just guard someone? Coaching is tough but to NOT guard people will always hurt you.

 

[jaymel911]

So is the primary measure of a team's success its ability to pull off upsets?

Again, one can talk about programs in many different ways, but if the only thing that can bring Carondelet down is a perception that they don't win games they're supposed to lose, then I'd call that a reach. And of course, they're seldom the underdog so the opportunities are rare. (When was the last time they lost a league game, much less weren't favored?)

Year in and year out, since the mid-'90s, Carondelet has always been one of the best programs east of the tunnel. No other team has matched that consistency, and to me, that counts for a lot.

I'm sure there is, and was, talk of getting Kelly Sopak to leave Miramonte and come to Carondelet, but I'm pretty sure that won't happen -- if only because his daughter Leah is a freshman at Miramonte and would have to sit out a year if she transferred.

I mentioned a upset not upsets.......... I also did not say Carondelet was not successful. In fact they have been a huge success and a dominant team for several years. I made mention that not only does Carondelet NEVER pull off upsets but they are often upset when they are favorites in big games.