Forfeit in NorCal D1 Girls

[TurtleLoveCA]

Learned from Prep2Prep's Harold Abend and Nate Smith that a charter school, Western Sierra in Rocklin has forfeited their D5 NorCal game tonight with St. Bernard in Eureka.

Apparently, Western Sierra didn't want to drive all the way to Eureka. CIF should ban all play by Western Sierra for next year.

 

[hustlinal]

D5

 

[ClayK]

That might be a little harsh, but if you submit your application, then you pretty much have committed to go where they send you. No one is forcing you to apply ...

The hard part about any punishment is that this is likely an administrative decision, and nothing CIF can do can affect the administrators who made the call. They can punish the kids and coaches, but I would guess they wanted to play ... but maybe not. If the players and coaches decided not to go, then it does make sense to punish the team, but even then, the punishment will be borne by some girls who aren't on this year's roster.

 

[letsski]

That might be a little harsh, but if you submit your application, then you pretty much have committed to go where they send you. No one is forcing you to apply ...

The hard part about any punishment is that this is likely an administrative decision, and nothing CIF can do can affect the administrators who made the call. They can punish the kids and coaches, but I would guess they wanted to play ... but maybe not. If the players and coaches decided not to go, then it does make sense to punish the team, but even then, the punishment will be borne by some girls who aren't on this year's roster.

Interesting.......as I write this from our hotel in...rainy Eureka! Long drive from San Mateo but you what you need to do to play, and we're happy to do so. Beats last year when we were left out.

 

[Willtalk]

How is this different from Carondelet's actions last year? In a way it is more justified. Driving that sort of distance on a school night might be construed as not being in the best interests of the girls and more of a legitimate excuse than canceling just to punish them. Either way it comes down to a school breaking their commitment. However Carondelet could have found other options of punishment.that would not have effected their commitment to the playoffs.

I don't think they can punish Westerns forfeit because they did nothing to Carondelet.

I think a 5 and a half hour drive up and then again back after the game is a legit reason to cancel. They wouldn't get back to the school until 3 and back home until 4am. That is crazy. Thats far more legit than a school looking for an means to punish behavior. Being on the road 11 hours with a game in between is stupid. I think they made the right decision.

 

[TurtleLoveCA]

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Carondelet-Concord-forfeits-NorCal-opener-in-wake-12733649.php

Not similar circumstances at all.

More importantly, every single team knows they may have to travel anywhere from a few miles to several hours.

 

[TurtleLoveCA]

Nonsense, Willtalk. Then don't fricking apply for the Tournament.

 

[northbaybbguru]

The schools up in the far north get hosed all the time by the NCS....just so happens it's the CIF doing it this time.

the new CIF schedule of tues, thurs, sat is ridiculous. Can you imagine being a team from up there and having to travel EVERY game? What is you were Eureka and had to play in San Jose on tues, then stockton on thurs? then SF on sat? that's insane!!! It almost would force you to make an overnight road trip and miss school and then at that point would you even be allowed to play because you missed school?

I'm going to guess that the tues/thurs/sat format will be a 1 and done idea... (at least I hope so)

 

[ClayK]

Here's the other thing: You're not supposed to miss any school days.

 

[observer22]

How is this different from Carondelet's actions last year? In a way it is more justified. Driving that sort of distance on a school night might be construed as not being in the best interests of the girls and more of a legitimate excuse than canceling just to punish them. Either way it comes down to a school breaking their commitment. However Carondelet could have found other options of punishment.that would not have effected their commitment to the playoffs.

I don't think they can punish Westerns forfeit because they did nothing to Carondelet.

I think a 5 and a half hour drive up and then again back after the game is a legit reason to cancel. They wouldn't get back to the school until 3 and back home until 4am. That is crazy. Thats far more legit than a school looking for an means to punish behavior. Being on the road 11 hours with a game in between is stupid. I think they made the right decision.

I agree to a certain extent. Carondelet does not get punished, after waiting until after the brackets had been released to make their decision. If this tiny school where basketball is not a priority gets the book thrown at them for not wanting to drive all the way up to Eureka on a school night in the rain, what do we learn from that? The next school will just make up some story about a team rule being broken so they don't get punished, as the precedent has been set.

 

[Willtalk]

Nonsense, Willtalk. Then don't fricking apply for the Tournament.

The only one speaking nonsense is you.

St Barnard is the one seed and Western Sierra is the 16th seed. Them forfeiting does not affect the rest of the seeding like Carondelet pull out did.

With the obscure method of deciding which teams teams would be playing in which bracket no team in D5 could have known that St Barnard was going to stay in D5 and would not have been moved up to another bracket. They were one of the higher rated D5 teams in the State. Pinewood is D5 and they are playing Open. WS could not have possibly known that they would be matched up with St Barnard.

I do see the rational for keeping SB in D5, because moving them up would have made them a lower travel seed and that would have been punishing them for being better than their classification. As northbayguro states- this years schedule is insane and all the travel problems would have been transferred on to them.

This forfeit might not be the last in this division. If the 8th seed Notre Dame wins they will be facing a 7 hour drive thursday ( 14 hours on the road in all ) where as if the other team wins it will only be 5 hours.

In WS case they would have had to leave Tues morning to get to the game in time. Then after the game they would have not gotten back to the school til about 4 am and that does not account for the rainy weather conditions. Do they then go home to sleep or just stay at school? This makes no sense for Western Sierra. They miss two days of school for just that one game. They also have to spend eleven hours in a van traveling.

The 5 1/2 hour travel time each way is not even accounting for stoppage for meals and the bad weather conditions that exist now.. And you think this is rational?

You want the CIF to ban them from playing next year for not doing something crazy? Your perspective is not only irrational but your call for sever punishment reeks of some sort of personal agenda. What is it about this forfeit that impels this sort of, over the top, goal displaced reaction from you? It certainly can not be based on reason.

 

[colhenrylives]

One other factor in the above scenario: The safety of students and staff. If this incoming storm turns out to be as bad as forecast, travel safety would become a serious concern. That's just one more issue bearing on the school's decision.

 

[coach_augie]

Willtalk,

I think the that a lot of people feel that there should be a suspension. C-Let is totally different as it was (from my understanding) a discipline issue, not just an I don't wanna drive 5+ hours for a game. Someone earlier said that if they wanna play in the post season, they should be willing to travel. Here are some lengthy travels that are happening:


Palo Alto travels to Del Norte (girls)
Aaragon travels to Eureka (girls)
Credo (Santa Rosa) travels to Etna (just 30-40 minutes south of the Oregon Boarder)
West Valley travels to Biggs (4.5 hours)
Lassen travels to Redwood (7 hours in the snow)
Redondo Beach to Clovis West

Boys
Hoopa high (boys) is traveling to Arbuckle (same distance)
Ripon travels to Mt. Shasta (6 hours in the snow)
Anderson travels to Point Arena
Liberty Ranch to Fortuna

Traveling is not an anomaly and it's been happening for years. I just think it's a little bush league to forfeit and to be honest, this is the first year of ever hearing about teams forfeiting. If it was something disciplinary or out of their control, then yeah I guess I'd support it. But Because they don't want to travel isn't an excuse. Having been on the other end of the stick (I started my coaching career at St. Bernards and played at Hoopa), it's not fun to travel but we did its because of the experience for the kids-and we wanted to compete.

I just think it sends the wrong message. so they miss 1-2 days of school...out of the year. It's really not the end of the world. If a team pulls out of a CIF tourney I do think there should be penalties according to the reason. Travel or not wanting to drive should not be one.

 

[coach_augie]

One other factor in the above scenario: The safety of students and staff. If this incoming storm turns out to be as bad as forecast, travel safety would become a serious concern. That's just one more issue bearing on the school's decision.

then they postpone or rearrange the schedule like they did this past week. Cancelling games sends the wrong message.

 

[colhenrylives]

Not really. It's life in California, a huge entity of more than 40 million people and 1,500 high schools. Sometimes, things don't work out, especially when the schedule is so constricted.

 

[bella123]

Isn’t it the “NorCal” playoffs? Meaning you could be playing anywhere in Norhtern California.

 

[Willtalk]

CoachAuge--- I understand Palo Alto had to drive 400 miles to get there- via Oregon and will stay up their because they play Redding next. I wonder if they knew it was going to be such a journey, and if they didn't if they would have chosen to take it. Again it was a matter of choice.

Just because some schools chose to make that sort of trip does not obligate others to do the same. Again we are talking about missing four days of school, which is what Palo Alto will miss. Western would only have missed two provided the roads stayed open. Which is not always a a sure thing. Some people would not think that along with the risk of travel in bad weather is worth it. Western is a Charter School that focuses on academics.

My response is to TurtleLoves call to ban them from competition for next season. Under the circumstances this is totally uncalled for. I also believe that this is more justified than Carondelet canceling their game. Western cancellation affect on others is nothing more than often happens in these brackets. The top rated team gets a first round bye. Where as with Carondelet it affected the entire seeding which would have been different had they been not included.

They should and could have under the circumstances fulfilled their obligation and used another form of discipline to punish the offending students. Such as cancelling the awards banquet or other forms of punishment like service detentions. It was a matter of choice for the schools but only about the form of punishment, and did not involve the safety of the students or them missing classes.

This situation is not about professional athletes but high school students. If Carondelet felt that their choice of disciple was worth the trade off of a forfeit, then certainly Westerns choice of believing the trade off necessary for driving up to Eureka was not worth it for them. That trade off being loss of class time, safety and health concerns for the students, along with some others that we might not privy too. Charter Schools are far more vulnerable than regular schools in respect to consequences, if something where to happen to their students.

 

[ClayK]

On the one hand, the travel demands of postseason in Northern California are excessive, no question.

On the other, no one is forcing you to apply for postseason. If you feel that potential travel will be too much, do not apply. If you apply, you agree to travel.

That, I think, is the difference between Carondelet and Western Sierra. Carondelet applied in good faith, but actions after the application changed the situation. If Western Sierra was unwilling to travel 5.5 hours to play, then Western Sierra should not have applied in the first place.

As for the consequence, that's the hard part. The penalty should be applied to the administration, but what that would be I don't know. My first thought is a fine of some sort, equal to the potential revenue for the game. Again, if Western Sierra didn't want to travel, then just don't apply.

 

[observer22]

On the one hand, the travel demands of postseason in Northern California are excessive, no question.

On the other, no one is forcing you to apply for postseason. If you feel that potential travel will be too much, do not apply. If you apply, you agree to travel.

That, I think, is the difference between Carondelet and Western Sierra. Carondelet applied in good faith, but actions after the application changed the situation. If Western Sierra was unwilling to travel 5.5 hours to play, then Western Sierra should not have applied in the first place.

As for the consequence, that's the hard part. The penalty should be applied to the administration, but what that would be I don't know. My first thought is a fine of some sort, equal to the potential revenue for the game. Again, if Western Sierra didn't want to travel, then just don't apply.

Clay, you have coached at small school programs where basketball isn’t a priority. Is it possible the coach sent in the paperwork applying for a spot, and then once the admin found out what all was involved it was nixed?

 

[coach_augie]

CoachAuge--- I understand Palo Alto had to drive 400 miles to get there- via Oregon and will stay up their because they play Redding next. I wonder if they knew it was going to be such a journey, and if they didn't if they would have chosen to take it. Again it was a matter of choice.

Just because some schools chose to make that sort of trip does not obligate others to do the same. Again we are talking about missing four days of school, which is what Palo Alto will miss. Western would only have missed two provided the roads stayed open. Which is not always a a sure thing. Some people would not think that along with the risk of travel in bad weather is worth it. Western is a Charter School that focuses on academics.

My response is to TurtleLoves call to ban them from competition for next season. Under the circumstances this is totally uncalled for. I also believe that this is more justified than Carondelet canceling their game. Western cancellation affect on others is nothing more than often happens in these brackets. The top rated team gets a first round bye. Where as with Carondelet it affected the entire seeding which would have been different had they been not included.

They should and could have under the circumstances fulfilled their obligation and used another form of discipline to punish the offending students. Such as cancelling the awards banquet or other forms of punishment like service detentions. It was a matter of choice for the schools but only about the form of punishment, and did not involve the safety of the students or them missing classes.

This situation is not about professional athletes but high school students. If Carondelet felt that their choice of disciple was worth the trade off of a forfeit, then certainly Westerns choice of believing the trade off necessary for driving up to Eureka was not worth it for them. That trade off being loss of class time, safety and health concerns for the students, along with some others that we might not privy too. Charter Schools are far more vulnerable than regular schools in respect to consequences, if something where to happen to their students.

It's my recollection that if the school is over 200 miles, the CIF will pay for the travel. Why didn't these teams fly to the Arcata/McKinleyville airport and just drive from there (40 minutes to Del Norte and 20 minutes to St. Bernards)...just a thought.

You say just because some schools choose to make that trip does not obligate other to do the same. I'll agree to disagree. IF you decide to participate in the Norcal Playoffs, you are basically signing up to travel from as south as Fresno to North as Yreka/Del-Norte OR host a game which teams from those areas would also travel. Not fulfilling your obligation (they applied) not only robs the host school of a life long memory (I totally remember the two games we hosted in Norcals my senior year), but it also teaches kids that when things get tough, quit.

I'm not sure what the consequences should be. Whether it's a fine or banning the program next year for failure to follow through. I do believe that the CIF needs to send a message to ALL schools about their willingness to participate in post-season play because choosing not to participate because of travel is just not a good excuse (in my opinion).

 

[ClayK]

I worked at a school with a fulltime AD, so he was on top of all the paperwork. Don't know Western Sierra's situation, but if the coach applied without the AD's approval, that's the AD's fault -- and ultimately the head of school. The NCAA phrase is "institutional control," I think.

 

[coach_augie]

https://humboldtsports.com/2019/02/...rra-will-never-understand-the-h-dn-mentality/

Great article about the SB Forefit and the HDN teams

 

[personalogic]

https://humboldtsports.com/2019/02/...rra-will-never-understand-the-h-dn-mentality/

Great article about the SB Forefit and the HDN teams

Nope, Willtalk still has the right perspective on this. In order to reach a contrary result, you have to start with a heavily exaggerated view of the importance of this particular high school basketball game. The kids don't care. CIF doesn't care about the kids.

 

[straightline50]

I worked at a school with a fulltime AD, so he was on top of all the paperwork. Don't know Western Sierra's situation, but if the coach applied without the AD's approval, that's the AD's fault -- and ultimately the head of school. The NCAA phrase is "institutional control," I think.

Institutional control would then apply in the Carondelet case as well. There should be a penalty for any team being placed in a bracket and not meeting the participation requirement. It does not have to be severe but it does have to have an impact. In the Carondelet case it could have been a 2-3 game schedule reduction the following year. Nothing serious but at least action was taken regardless of the circumstances. The more severe penalty would be a one year no host CIF ban. So, if Pinewood wins tonight they would be hosting as a 3 seed against Carondelet. Now, that would have been some irony. In the case at hand perhaps a 3 game schedule reduction for the team in the 2019-2020 season. If nothing else it puts the punishment on paper so a repeat occurrence could be dealt stiffer penalties.