Girls Open…. Mitty takes on Etiwanda.
- Thread starter kiddman32
- Start date
Don’t the refs get graded out based on a review of their work? The top rated refs get to do the biggest games? Do they have 2 separate gradings, 1 for men and another for women? Or do they just take the top rated women refs for the girls games even if there are higher rated men sitting at home? BTW, I thought the refs did a fine job in this game, just bantering about the selection process.
Numbers. There are far more men who ref than women. Also, a lot of men don't want to do girls games.
The JC level to get hired on the women's side you can go to 1 camp and get hired. Some get hired sight unseen. There are just less options and they need officials
It's not the highest ranked refs or the same refs would be there every year.
The games are split yearly and rotate.
The crews are from the same high school association and when the tournament starts they already know who is moving all the way to the finals.
Thanks. But are there separate ref rankings, or are they all evaluated on the same things? Are the top refs doing girls games also among the top overall refs?
Also, it makes sense if a ref has been doing girls games all year to have them do girls games in Sacto. It would be ludicrous to have some guy who’s never reffed a girls game get assigned on in a state championship game, even if he was the highest ranked ref available. A lot more goes into these assignments than first appears.
There really isn't a ranking. 2 people assign the finals crew. 1 from the north 1 from the south.
Another factor is the JC and D2 tournaments happening at the same time.
During the regular season refs work both girls and boys. There aren't enough to have them only do 1 gender.
Most of the refs I know played in high school, at least. David Vann, who does NCS game, is the second all-time leading scorer at St. Mary's College and was drafted by the Warriors.
My point about officiating is this: If an official is qualified enough to work a girls' state championship game, that official should be qualified enough to work a boys' state championship game. If not, why are the girls getting inferior officials? Yes, there are more male officials, so then one would expect more men to work state title games. (Of course there are some excellent female officials.)
My point about officiating is this: If an official is qualified enough to work a girls' state championship game, that official should be qualified enough to work a boys' state championship game. If not, why are the girls getting inferior officials? Yes, there are more male officials, so then one would expect more men to work state title games. (Of course there are some excellent female officials.)
The official is qualified. But for optics they would rather have women working the girls games. And there are far less women officiating then men.
Look at the ncaa.. u see tons of men doing women's games and very few women doing men's games.
I agree about the optics. And it's true in the NCAAs just as it is in high school: If there aren't enough qualified women to do men's championship games, then why should those women who aren't qualified be doing women's championship games? The women's/girls' teams are the ones impacted.
you have coached hundreds of girls who are now women. how many officiate?
its not that there isnt enough qualified, there just isnt enough period.
in the ncaa you only work mens or womens. you cannot work both. so its different. i was saying there are more men doing women in ncaa because it is an easier path because there is less competition.
the best in the area female in the area sha'rae is working in the nba now. the real qualified women move on the ncaa, nba, or wnba fast.
sha'rae mitchell was working your high school games 6 years ago.. she is working in the nba now. they move fast if they are good
Just a reminder: Even with their best player healthy and playing, Mitty lost the Open title game to Etiwanda in 2023 and 2024. There is no guarantee they would have won this time with her in the lineup.
Certainly no guarantee of a win, in fact they still probably lose. But it would give them a much better chance.
The disparity of FT’s had nothing to do with the refs and ALL about the play. One team was flat out tough, the other was soft. The refs did a great job. Mitty shot 28 free throws to Etiwanda’s 12. Etiwanda didn’t see the line because they shot 60% from the field. Mittys soft defense got exposed. Etiwanda’s offense made Mitty’s defense look like a cone drill. Aside from Mitty’s ole’ defense, a consistent theme is their lack of offense— it continues to haunt the Monarchs. (reminder: Pinewood game in nor cal ship 2025) Shooting 19/64 this year (29.7%), 18/56 (32.1%) in last year’s state game (with Woliczko & Cheli) , 22/77 (28.5%) in the 2022 state Championship, this is a pattern. Not saying they would have beat JuJu in 2022, but this is a THEME and Mitty refuses to address it. You can go back to 2017 vs Clovis West and they shot 35% in that CIF Ship and only able to put up 40 points. You would think a team 16 deep with players ALL over the Bay Area would be able to get some buckets. With all that talent, seems like the glaring problem here is coaching. History shows if they aren’t scoring in transition, they go on painful scoring droughts. We all know Phillips hangs her hat on defense, but at some point she’s going to need to put a premium on offense, most importantly in the half court.
News flash: Next year’s favorite, Ontario Christian will NOT go on scoring droughts. Not disrespecting Phillips’ tenure but she’s getting out coached. She made no adjustments and tried nothing new. Very predictable basketball. As Mercury News headlined, “Not again: Archbishop Mitty girls lose fourth consecutive Open Division state final” - yes my friends it’s true and not surprising.
News flash: Next year’s favorite, Ontario Christian will NOT go on scoring droughts. Not disrespecting Phillips’ tenure but she’s getting out coached. She made no adjustments and tried nothing new. Very predictable basketball. As Mercury News headlined, “Not again: Archbishop Mitty girls lose fourth consecutive Open Division state final” - yes my friends it’s true and not surprising.
It's a story because of the lack of females good enough.
Also the 'best' refs don't want to do the girls game.
Dave, just so I understand you, are you saying that Calif.'s # 1 ranked team Ontario Christian, #4 ranked team in Mater Dei, #5 ranked team, the undefeated Clovis West, Oregon's #1 ranked team Clakamas and Kentucky's #2 ranked team George Rogers Clark only had average or above average talent? Or that last year's nationally ranked #1 Long Island Lutheran only had average talent?
Saying that the NorCal domination is more NorCal Talent machinery than coaching and once she has to play SoCal teams… the last ten years … she is exposed
Exposed by more talent, though I don't think "exposed" is the right word.
By that logic, every coach who loses to Mitty badly or consistently is "exposed" as an inferior coach.
By that logic, every coach who loses to Mitty badly or consistently is "exposed" as an inferior coach.
Same in SoCal, the only difference in SoCal they have the population to support multiple "Talent machinery" schools. So why not call out the likes of Ontario Christian, Mater Dei, Sierra Canyon. It makes no sense to call out any coach at that level their all very good coaches with very talented players and by the way, you might argue this but players win and lose games! Have you look at her schedule this year, as well as, past years?
Exposed as in above average…not a legend not
A once in a lifetime… just above average…
Just ok… nothing wrong with ok
A once in a lifetime… just above average…
Just ok… nothing wrong with ok
I may be wrong, but I thought Ontario Christian and Mater Dei were SoCal teams. My bad. But you didn't answer my question regarding the talent level on the teams that Mitty beat.
Maybe bad coaching on the girls side - your contention. It must be really bad on the boys side - SoCal has won 12 of the last 13 open championships.
Or maybe the fact that SoCal has about an 8,000,000 -9,000,000 population advantage might tilt things a bit.
Winning games is first and foremost about talent. Talent is, in part, a product of population.
Evaluating coaching, or coaches, is very difficult at the high school level. There are many factors, from administration to facilities to parents, that have a big impact and take place off the court.
You have to play the hand you're dealt in a lot of cases, and sometimes all you've got is a low pair.
So,, define precisely why Sue is average? What precisely, does she do or not do? Are her offensive sets inefficient? If so, why? And what ones would be better? Are her defensive schemes inadequate? Then detail why and how, and how she could be better.
Evaluating coaching, or coaches, is very difficult at the high school level. There are many factors, from administration to facilities to parents, that have a big impact and take place off the court.
You have to play the hand you're dealt in a lot of cases, and sometimes all you've got is a low pair.
So,, define precisely why Sue is average? What precisely, does she do or not do? Are her offensive sets inefficient? If so, why? And what ones would be better? Are her defensive schemes inadequate? Then detail why and how, and how she could be better.
Not bad not average… great factory… machinery… recruiting… I know you like to tell
Yourself that is coaching…good for you… if that is true… she is a very good “coach”….
But it has been ten years…it is time for self analysis what is going on….ten straight years????
Yourself that is coaching…good for you… if that is true… she is a very good “coach”….
But it has been ten years…it is time for self analysis what is going on….ten straight years????
Coach Sue is a great coach and consistently beats top-level talent. But the reality is, any coach can be out-coached and exposed; no one is exempt. In tournament settings like TOC, where preparation time is short, Sue excels — she’s elite in that speed-chess environment. She's good at winning battles... The Open State Championship, however, is not a battle- it’s the war.
Unlike other divisions, the Open division is only a handful of teams–everyone knows who the top teams are. The depth of Southern California’s population gives SoCal teams a game-planning advantage, however their talent is spread across multiple teams. Most years, Mitty is just as D1-rich (or richer than SoCal teams- It's not an excuse), with 7-9 Division I players and another 3-4 D2 or D3 players on the roster. Mitty spends the year preparing for 3-4 SoCal teams they might face, while SoCal spends the entire year preparing for Mitty.
That reality cant be controlled - let's discuss what can be controlled. Every year, the SoCal blueprint to beat Mitty is the same:
1. Contain their transition offense.
2. Force them into a half-court game.
3. Be the more physical team.
Yet every year, the response from Sue and her staff looks the same — more speed and defense. The problem? Mitty already has an Abundance of Speed & Defense. That’s not the solution to breaking down elite teams who’ve prepared for them all year long.
The answer HAS to be fixing the glaring weakness that keeps rearing it ugly head year after year —WHERE IS THE HALF COURT OFFENSE?? You can go back 10 years and watch Mitty’s offense and not much has changed. I don’t see the Mitty program running very many new sets (if at all) and rarely run any kind of motion offense when the games are close. If they don’t score in transition, it’s the guards looking at Sue (usually dictated by her whistle) for what play they need to run. The predictability of their offense seems like the program is protecting wins and records versus taking the growing pains of trying something new over the course of the season to prepare for the Open State Ship. Look at her rotations- she plays defensive players over offensive players almost every year. In no way am I saying to give up on speed and defense, but at some point you have to add more offensive power.
Now, let's look at her counterpart, Stan Delus at Etiwanda. He prepares for war. He is not afraid to lose early in the season and try new wrinkles. Moving Puff to shooting guard to get more offensive production in 2025, after losing Kennedy Smith is a clear example of making adjustments. A defensive minded coach or someone who’s trying to protect a record would be afraid of having a small back court and what it would do to them defensively. Stan dissects problems early in the year and comes up with solutions even if it costs him losses or close games throughout the season. He knows at the end of the year, when they see Mitty, they need that offensive dominance.
This doesn’t even apply just to offensive adjustments. Last year, Stan hit them with a 3-2 defense , seemingly out of nowhere and it shook Mitty. They had no answer and went 1-13 from 3. Unlike other divisions, Open State is NOT speed chess, it’s long term game planning. The South is preparing all year for Mitty—Off season, tourneys, league play, playoffs, all the way to the Golden 1 Center.
I'm not here to tell Sue what offense to run, that’s her job. I'm also not here to make excuses by blaming players or debate the population size of Nor Cal vs So Cal. I am here to highlight the glaring issues that have continued for years. There are stats and facts that show the program's shortcomings and why she can't ever win in the Big Game. Goose-Egging in the Open Ship + Getting 3- peated on by the same team is bad enough- but I don't want to focus on the results, the devil is in the details. If you have the same problem year after year, spanning over a decade with TOP talent, it's up to the coach to put the pride aside, adjust and adapt. She’s a great coach, she knows more about basketball than I’ll ever know, just my opinion.
Unlike other divisions, the Open division is only a handful of teams–everyone knows who the top teams are. The depth of Southern California’s population gives SoCal teams a game-planning advantage, however their talent is spread across multiple teams. Most years, Mitty is just as D1-rich (or richer than SoCal teams- It's not an excuse), with 7-9 Division I players and another 3-4 D2 or D3 players on the roster. Mitty spends the year preparing for 3-4 SoCal teams they might face, while SoCal spends the entire year preparing for Mitty.
That reality cant be controlled - let's discuss what can be controlled. Every year, the SoCal blueprint to beat Mitty is the same:
1. Contain their transition offense.
2. Force them into a half-court game.
3. Be the more physical team.
Yet every year, the response from Sue and her staff looks the same — more speed and defense. The problem? Mitty already has an Abundance of Speed & Defense. That’s not the solution to breaking down elite teams who’ve prepared for them all year long.
The answer HAS to be fixing the glaring weakness that keeps rearing it ugly head year after year —WHERE IS THE HALF COURT OFFENSE?? You can go back 10 years and watch Mitty’s offense and not much has changed. I don’t see the Mitty program running very many new sets (if at all) and rarely run any kind of motion offense when the games are close. If they don’t score in transition, it’s the guards looking at Sue (usually dictated by her whistle) for what play they need to run. The predictability of their offense seems like the program is protecting wins and records versus taking the growing pains of trying something new over the course of the season to prepare for the Open State Ship. Look at her rotations- she plays defensive players over offensive players almost every year. In no way am I saying to give up on speed and defense, but at some point you have to add more offensive power.
Now, let's look at her counterpart, Stan Delus at Etiwanda. He prepares for war. He is not afraid to lose early in the season and try new wrinkles. Moving Puff to shooting guard to get more offensive production in 2025, after losing Kennedy Smith is a clear example of making adjustments. A defensive minded coach or someone who’s trying to protect a record would be afraid of having a small back court and what it would do to them defensively. Stan dissects problems early in the year and comes up with solutions even if it costs him losses or close games throughout the season. He knows at the end of the year, when they see Mitty, they need that offensive dominance.
This doesn’t even apply just to offensive adjustments. Last year, Stan hit them with a 3-2 defense , seemingly out of nowhere and it shook Mitty. They had no answer and went 1-13 from 3. Unlike other divisions, Open State is NOT speed chess, it’s long term game planning. The South is preparing all year for Mitty—Off season, tourneys, league play, playoffs, all the way to the Golden 1 Center.
I'm not here to tell Sue what offense to run, that’s her job. I'm also not here to make excuses by blaming players or debate the population size of Nor Cal vs So Cal. I am here to highlight the glaring issues that have continued for years. There are stats and facts that show the program's shortcomings and why she can't ever win in the Big Game. Goose-Egging in the Open Ship + Getting 3- peated on by the same team is bad enough- but I don't want to focus on the results, the devil is in the details. If you have the same problem year after year, spanning over a decade with TOP talent, it's up to the coach to put the pride aside, adjust and adapt. She’s a great coach, she knows more about basketball than I’ll ever know, just my opinion.
I posted this Thursday, the site just published today. I changed my mind, I will address the common excuses….
Winning is about talent. However, it’s the coach’s job to put the talent in a position to win or be successful on the court. Blaming talent, population, administration or parents is a lazy argument and disrespectful to the kids on the team. I’m not for excuses, so let me walk you down for a second:
“Exposed by Talent” - Here’s Mitty’s final games of each season since 2017:
2017 – LOST to Clovis West – Beat CW earlier in the year (lack of talent?). Lost a close game in the Open Ship.
2018 – LOST to Pinewood – Mitty was crowned National Champs (big lack of talent?). Upset city.
2019 – LOST to Salesian – Most people thought they would see a Pinewood vs Mitty rematch the following round (lack of talent?). Upset city.
2020 – Covid
2021 – LOST to Pinewood (@ Mitty) – TWELVE (12) D1 players on the Mitty roster (big lack of talent?). Upset city.
2022 – LOST to Sierra Canyon – Ran into the unstoppable Juju Train.
2023 - LOST to Etiwanda – Played a close game that they could’ve won (lack of talent?).
2024 - LOST to Etiwanda – Mitty ranked #1 in the US longer than any other team (big lack of talent?). Beats #1 LUHI at NIKE TOC. Etiwanda lost to LUHI by 30 this same season.
2025 – LOST to Etiwanda – Star player out. Uphill battle.
So, by my account only two years (2022 & 2025) were they “exposed by talent”. More upsets and even matchups. Mind you there was a Haley Jones era (#1 player in the country), Morgan Cheli era and currently McKenna Woliczko era. Each era was not only surrounded by other D1 players, but they also had a teammate that was ranked by ESPN. We can put the talent/population excuse to bed.
Administration:
Coach Sue is a Mitty Alumni
Coach Sue has been in her position for 30+ years (well deserved)
Kids pour in (legally) from all over the Bay Area, transfers & freshmen. Can’t attend Mitty without going through admissions.
Doesn’t seem to be any issues here.
Parents:
GOLDEN RULE: If you work with kids then you deal with the parents.
This goes for teachers, to school bus drivers and yes --coaches too.
Now that we’ve debunked all excuses that shift blame to teenage girls or parents, over the adult coaching staff, let me provide more stats about the Mitty offense. FG% was covered (first post), now let’s take a deeper dive:
Running back final games of each season since 2017:
2017 – 17% 3pt
2018 – 23% 3pt
2019 – 15% 3pt
2020 – Covid
2021 – 28% 3pt
2022 – 25% 3pt
2023 – 27% 3pt
2024 – 7% 3pt
2025 – 28% 3pt
Grand total of 29 /132 or 22%. If we deduct the “exposed by talent” years we get 19 /94 or 20%. Underwhelming right?
Is there a shortage of shooters in Norcal that I don’t know about? Have kids across the world been inspired by Warriors shooting the last two decades but the kids in the Bay Area have not?
As stated before, half-court offense is a weakness. If you ignore your weaknesses by doubling down on your strengths (speed & defense), you’re leaving those weaknesses in a vulnerable position (actual definition of exposed) or to be exposed, especially in big moments.
I said rotations were a problem in my other post. Here’s an example (most recent): Etiwanda shot 73.3% FG in the 3rd quarter of the 2025 ship. Mitty shot 25% FG in the 3rd Quarter. Subs in this quarter were all defensive (all game really). She looked down the bench and said, “More speed and defense”. At some point you must try something new. Maybe senior guard Bangalore? She played vital minutes as a sophomore, can hit open shots and ended the season on fire (when given the opportunity). Not saying this would have led to a Mitty win but maybe she can spark the offense with a couple 3s, if given a couple minutes. Far less chance Etiwanda goes from 73% to 93% just because of that substitution. However, greater probability Mitty shoots a little better than 25%. This is a constant staple in the Mitty program. It happens all season but most games they have the better horses, so they wear teams down. Fixing this problem would be a better choice. Even if it costs a game or two during the season. In the open ship the other team has horses too, not likely to wear them down. Adding offensive efficiency to the rotation should maybe be considered? Not an overhaul. Stay who Mitty is but if any kids, on that deep bench, can provide some shooting or half-court offense it takes a lot of pressure off the defense. Imagine, Wolizko surrounded by 3pt and/or mid-range (high low game?) shooters every now again. This would be dangerous in spurts and give other teams something to think about. Now Mitty gets to say, “Pick your poison, please try to run with us or if you want to continue these zones/pack line style defenses, we are more than willing to join that party too”.
I’m not tearing Coach Sue down. I ‘m just shining a light on an issue that other teams seem to be taking advantage of, instead of making the same tired excuses I read in this forum every year. We can’t teach kids not to make excuses, if the adults are making them. Your either part of the solution or part of the problem, I’m trying to provide solutions to a problem that spans over a decade.
“Exposed by Talent” - Here’s Mitty’s final games of each season since 2017:
2017 – LOST to Clovis West – Beat CW earlier in the year (lack of talent?). Lost a close game in the Open Ship.
2018 – LOST to Pinewood – Mitty was crowned National Champs (big lack of talent?). Upset city.
2019 – LOST to Salesian – Most people thought they would see a Pinewood vs Mitty rematch the following round (lack of talent?). Upset city.
2020 – Covid
2021 – LOST to Pinewood (@ Mitty) – TWELVE (12) D1 players on the Mitty roster (big lack of talent?). Upset city.
2022 – LOST to Sierra Canyon – Ran into the unstoppable Juju Train.
2023 - LOST to Etiwanda – Played a close game that they could’ve won (lack of talent?).
2024 - LOST to Etiwanda – Mitty ranked #1 in the US longer than any other team (big lack of talent?). Beats #1 LUHI at NIKE TOC. Etiwanda lost to LUHI by 30 this same season.
2025 – LOST to Etiwanda – Star player out. Uphill battle.
So, by my account only two years (2022 & 2025) were they “exposed by talent”. More upsets and even matchups. Mind you there was a Haley Jones era (#1 player in the country), Morgan Cheli era and currently McKenna Woliczko era. Each era was not only surrounded by other D1 players, but they also had a teammate that was ranked by ESPN. We can put the talent/population excuse to bed.
Administration:
Coach Sue is a Mitty Alumni
Coach Sue has been in her position for 30+ years (well deserved)
Kids pour in (legally) from all over the Bay Area, transfers & freshmen. Can’t attend Mitty without going through admissions.
Doesn’t seem to be any issues here.
Parents:
GOLDEN RULE: If you work with kids then you deal with the parents.
This goes for teachers, to school bus drivers and yes --coaches too.
Now that we’ve debunked all excuses that shift blame to teenage girls or parents, over the adult coaching staff, let me provide more stats about the Mitty offense. FG% was covered (first post), now let’s take a deeper dive:
Running back final games of each season since 2017:
2017 – 17% 3pt
2018 – 23% 3pt
2019 – 15% 3pt
2020 – Covid
2021 – 28% 3pt
2022 – 25% 3pt
2023 – 27% 3pt
2024 – 7% 3pt
2025 – 28% 3pt
Grand total of 29 /132 or 22%. If we deduct the “exposed by talent” years we get 19 /94 or 20%. Underwhelming right?
Is there a shortage of shooters in Norcal that I don’t know about? Have kids across the world been inspired by Warriors shooting the last two decades but the kids in the Bay Area have not?
As stated before, half-court offense is a weakness. If you ignore your weaknesses by doubling down on your strengths (speed & defense), you’re leaving those weaknesses in a vulnerable position (actual definition of exposed) or to be exposed, especially in big moments.
I said rotations were a problem in my other post. Here’s an example (most recent): Etiwanda shot 73.3% FG in the 3rd quarter of the 2025 ship. Mitty shot 25% FG in the 3rd Quarter. Subs in this quarter were all defensive (all game really). She looked down the bench and said, “More speed and defense”. At some point you must try something new. Maybe senior guard Bangalore? She played vital minutes as a sophomore, can hit open shots and ended the season on fire (when given the opportunity). Not saying this would have led to a Mitty win but maybe she can spark the offense with a couple 3s, if given a couple minutes. Far less chance Etiwanda goes from 73% to 93% just because of that substitution. However, greater probability Mitty shoots a little better than 25%. This is a constant staple in the Mitty program. It happens all season but most games they have the better horses, so they wear teams down. Fixing this problem would be a better choice. Even if it costs a game or two during the season. In the open ship the other team has horses too, not likely to wear them down. Adding offensive efficiency to the rotation should maybe be considered? Not an overhaul. Stay who Mitty is but if any kids, on that deep bench, can provide some shooting or half-court offense it takes a lot of pressure off the defense. Imagine, Wolizko surrounded by 3pt and/or mid-range (high low game?) shooters every now again. This would be dangerous in spurts and give other teams something to think about. Now Mitty gets to say, “Pick your poison, please try to run with us or if you want to continue these zones/pack line style defenses, we are more than willing to join that party too”.
I’m not tearing Coach Sue down. I ‘m just shining a light on an issue that other teams seem to be taking advantage of, instead of making the same tired excuses I read in this forum every year. We can’t teach kids not to make excuses, if the adults are making them. Your either part of the solution or part of the problem, I’m trying to provide solutions to a problem that spans over a decade.
I like this.
Are you saying lack of creativity is the problem I have been saying that there has to be some
Issues… ten years !!! Finally people are starting to speak up.. other than me…
Are you saying lack of creativity is the problem I have been saying that there has to be some
Issues… ten years !!! Finally people are starting to speak up.. other than me…
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