Gotta Love Competitive Equity

[Norcal_Fan]

So glad that competitive equity will be thrown out next year (at least in NCS). The NCS Commish doesn't care one bit about the NCS teams. Here's the evidence.

Salesian wins D1 NCS and gets the 12 seed in D1.
San Domenico wins D5 NCS and gets the 15 seed in D2. I really don't get this one.
St. Pats wins D4 NCS, gets a 13 seed. Again, DON'T GET THIS
Cal High loses in D1 Finals NCS and gets a 7 seed.
University loses by 20 in D4 finals, gets #1 seed in D3
Cornerstone Christian loses in D5 final and gets 13 seed in D3
Justin Sienna loses in NCS semi's D4 and gets D3 15 seed
St. Bernads loses in the semi-finals of D5 and gets a #1 Seed. Please explain this one to me. This makes NO sense.
You'll love this: Arcata, #4 seed in NCS D4, loses in semifinals d4 NCS and gets a #2 seed in D4.
Mt. Diablo, one seed behind St. Bernards, lost in the semifinals to the #1 seed by 8 points. St. Bernards lost to the section runner-up by 18, yet MD gets a 7-seeded. This makes NO sense.

Gil Lemmon used to try his best to take care of his teams. The new commish obviously gets bullied and can't hang in these talks. It's embarrassing and totally makes this concept of comptitive equity seem like a bad joke. What it's does is pushes the crappy teams to D5 and punishes semifinalists in D5, 4, and 3.

 

[smmustanggirlhoops]

3 Marin teams win NCS section titles and all get sent on the road. You play who's in front of you and shouldn't get punished for that.
Most bummed there's no game in town.....
We lost the D3 NCS title game last year by 20 and got a 7 seed and home game in D2.
I don't get it.
Looking forward to any changes next year.

 

[colhenrylives]

Here's a thought: There are far, far, far too many teams to slot into brackets with any consistent, balanced, fair protocols. Way too much of this process is a total crap shoot once you get past the top 25-30. After that it's a buffet of the mediocre and, frankly, bad units, most of which should not be flailing about in a state tournament like California's.

 

[cd9723]

It’s all garbage , Salesian & St pats play in a tough league and get hosed

 

[cd9723]

So glad that competitive equity will be thrown out next year (at least in NCS). The NCS Commish doesn't care one bit about the NCS teams. Here's the evidence.

Salesian wins D1 NCS and gets the 12 seed in D1.
San Domenico wins D5 NCS and gets the 15 seed in D2. I really don't get this one.
St. Pats wins D4 NCS, gets a 13 seed. Again, DON'T GET THIS
Cal High loses in D1 Finals NCS and gets a 7 seed.
University loses by 20 in D4 finals, gets #1 seed in D3
Cornerstone Christian loses in D5 final and gets 13 seed in D3
Justin Sienna loses in NCS semi's D4 and gets D3 15 seed
St. Bernads loses in the semi-finals of D5 and gets a #1 Seed. Please explain this one to me. This makes NO sense.
You'll love this: Arcata, #4 seed in NCS D4, loses in semifinals d4 NCS and gets a #2 seed in D4.
Mt. Diablo, one seed behind St. Bernards, lost in the semifinals to the #1 seed by 8 points. St. Bernards lost to the section runner-up by 18, yet MD gets a 7-seeded. This makes NO sense.

Gil Lemmon used to try his best to take care of his teams. The new commish obviously gets bullied and can't hang in these talks. It's embarrassing and totally makes this concept of comptitive equity seem like a bad joke. What it's does is pushes the crappy teams to D5 and punishes semifinalists in D5, 4, and 3.

St pats beats Arcata & University in NCS yet get to go to Colfax in D2, yet Uni get 1 seed in D3 & Arcata 2 seed D4 should St pats have just lost? Of course not , but my goodness it’s so bad….

 

[cptmycpa]

Maybe the CIF needs to incorporate like it does for football, more divisions, like:
Open, D1-AA, D1-A, D2-AA, D2-A, D3-AA, D3-A ...etc. More state titles to give out. Please excuse my ignorance, but why does CIF football have this format but not basketball?

 

[short17]

It really doesn’t matter. D 1-5 are not anything more than a big Christmas Tournament. There are not state championships.

 

[Streak One]

Here's a thought: There are far, far, far too many teams to slot into brackets with any consistent, balanced, fair protocols. Way too much of this process is a total crap shoot once you get past the top 25-30. After that it's a buffet of the mediocre and, frankly, bad units, most of which should not be flailing about in a state tournament like California's.

Honestly I think they move way too many teams around. I would like to slot teams in their section division for NorCal and then adjust for teams as needed.

Definitely shouldn’t have a section winner be a 15 seed in one division and the runner up be the #2 seed in a lower division. Things like that really hurt the credibility of this tournament

 

[MC415]

It really doesn’t matter. D 1-5 are not anything more than a big Christmas Tournament. There are not state championships.

It doesn’t matter to us adults who aren’t directly involved, but I have a little hunch that the children playing in these games probably feel different about it

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

Maybe the CIF needs to incorporate like it does for football, more divisions, like:
Open, D1-AA, D1-A, D2-AA, D2-A, D3-AA, D3-A ...etc. More state titles to give out. Please excuse my ignorance, but why does CIF football have this format but not basketball?

start with: football is two games, 4 teams, if they have 12 divisions, then that's 48 teams that participate in regionals/state.

if you did that in basketball, you'd run out of teams.

i guess you can make them 8 team brackets....
more opportunity to be mad about seedings.

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

It doesn’t matter to us adults who aren’t directly involved, but I have a little hunch that the children playing in these games probably feel different about it

eh... as has been said before, i agree with the sentiment that you rebrand these as division championships.. with one true state champ.

you can still have a playoff, win a bracket, hang a banner. I agree it should still not mean nothing... and it should matter,

But i think the point is, there are too many 'state' champions. Rebrand it.

 

[letsski]

Your best bet to win a state title is to be a semi-finalist loser and grab an "At Large" spot. Lynbrook, a 14 pt. loser in CCS D2 semis snags a #2 seed in D5. Next best option is to be a finalist loser in a lower division. HMB lost in CCS D4 finals and got a #4 seed in D5. Both of these teams have a realistic chance of getting a state title. Meanwhile, Menlo, which won the CCS D4 title gets a 13 seed in D4. And don't even talk about CCS Open division's Los Gatos. 13th seed in D1 - Congrats on the nice season - see ya next year.

 

[Streak One]

It doesn’t matter to us adults who aren’t directly involved, but I have a little hunch that the children playing in these games probably feel different about it

This is an important distinction. It does matter to us who follow it and that is important in terms of engagemnt and tickets.

On the other end is the players who get more basketball and some pretty good experiences in the process.

Coaches are in the middle. They see firsthand the positive impact for the kids but it also must suck to see a season potentially derailed due to weird seedlings

 

[ankleassassin]

It really doesn’t matter. D 1-5 are not anything more than a big Christmas Tournament. There are not state championships.

that is as far from the truth as it gets. those players will never forget getting that ring. nor will their peers, parents, siblings, and the mayor of their city.

 

[ankleassassin]

Caruthers has to travel to Gilroy. They had a great season.. .so good they beat a team
98-3 and another 86-8!!!

 

[AtomicDawg1911]

Oakland Tech receives a 10th seed in D2. No matter the situation at hand they should not be in D2. Low seed in D1 should’ve been the case. But come on.

Article was released this morning with the commissioner of the CIF giving many excuses as in why this team is here and there but it does add up.

The number 1 seed in D2 will not be playing in the state final.

Vanden or Oakland Tech are my favorites.

 

[bb-hoops]

Solution - Cut both section and NorCal's 8 team brackets (everyone doesn't need a ribbon ). Get coaches back involved in the seeding meeting not to pitch their team but to add knowledge to the committee. This would immediately make a difference. What a simple solution!

 

[Mo Green]

Maybe the CIF needs to incorporate like it does for football, more divisions, like:
Open, D1-AA, D1-A, D2-AA, D2-A, D3-AA, D3-A ...etc. More state titles to give out. Please excuse my ignorance, but why does CIF football have this format but not basketball?

FB can only play once a week. To achieve more inclusiveness they have to create more divisions or play into January

 

[Mo Green]

Solution - Cut both section and NorCal's 8 team brackets (everyone doesn't need a ribbon ). Get coaches back involved in the seeding meeting not to pitch their team but to add knowledge to the committee. This would immediately make a difference. What a simple solution!

Agree with cutting down on the brackets. Making Norcals was actually an achievement 20 years ago. Pretty sure coaches never got to go to the seeding meeting though.

 

[ankleassassin]

Solution - Cut both section and NorCal's 8 team brackets (everyone doesn't need a ribbon ). Get coaches back involved in the seeding meeting not to pitch their team but to add knowledge to the committee. This would immediately make a difference. What a simple solution!

coaches picking is a conflict of interest.

 

[northbaybbguru]

It's actually been proven time and time again that LOSING the section final is more advantageous than winning it in the current format. 9 times out of 10 the loser gets a 2?3?4? seed (and home games)in a lower division while the winner gets a double digit seed (and on the road) in the higher division.


Maybe they should give a section champion an automatic home game in Norcals?

 

[ClayK]

There is no good system. Different systems are in place around the country, and different systems have been tried in California and its sections. None are satisfactory.

Even worse, in California, is that the same committee seeds the boys and girls -- nearly 200 teams -- in one day. Half the people involved most likely know nothing about the girls' side a week beforehand, and certainly not the details. The other half are similarly ignorant about the boys. And what does a NorCal person know about Southern Cal?

So let's say they meet for seven hours, or 420 minutes. They have 28 brackets to do (we'll assume they don't spend any time on Division VI or VII). That's 15 minutes to seed 16 teams, or less than a minute per team -- or to put it another way, one minute per seed.

There's simply no way this can be done. There is way too much relevant information to digest or communicate in such a short span of time.

Then add in the varying negotiating and persuasive skills of the section representatives, and it gets even more goofy.

In short, even if the system were better, the time constraints limit the accuracy of the seedings. Separate boys and girls committees? I like the idea, but then which committee does the section commissioner go to? And does an assistant commissioner carry the same weight?

Two days of meetings? Good, but expensive. And let's not forget there are other playoffs going on as well, for several weeks in a row, all of which are just as important to the people involved.

Certainly some tweaks could be made to address present flaws, but those tweaks would naturally include unintended consequences. And no matter what you do, someone is going to be the 16th seed in one division, and someone else will be the one seed in the division below. Or one team will be five students above the enrollment cutoff, and another five students below.

In the end, bad seed or good seed, home or away, you just have to get on the court and play the games. There will always be whining, no matter what the system, and there will always be teams that get hosed, and those that don't. There's no way around it.

 

[AtomicDawg1911]

No brackets will be completely perfect but something can be done better than this. If you have an advisory committee for the girls side that actually go watch games and keep up with SOS, etc. it wouldn’t be hard to create a worthy bracket open- DV.

 

[ClayK]

They have just such a committee in NCS -- and the complaints are the same. And there are 1,400 teams in California, spread out over 160,000 square miles. We don't think much about the D5 seedings, but I bet the complaints are even worse at that level. The NCAA has hundreds of millions of dollars at stake, and screws it up every year despite having a much smaller universe to deal with and a lot more money and time to throw at the problem.

Roll with the punches and make shots ... that's about all you can do.

 

[ankleassassin]

They have just such a committee in NCS -- and the complaints are the same. And there are 1,400 teams in California, spread out over 160,000 square miles. We don't think much about the D5 seedings, but I bet the complaints are even worse at that level. The NCAA has hundreds of millions of dollars at stake, and screws it up every year despite having a much smaller universe to deal with and a lot more money and time to throw at the problem.

Roll with the punches and make shots ... that's about all you can do.

and box out, and help the helper... nobody thought the greatest team ever golden state warriors would lose to lowly cleveland either...

 

[Peninsula Pete]

Alright. I'll ask the question. Why do we need all these NorCal divisions and games? What does it do for the school, program, kids? From Open down through D6, there are 93 teams playing in NorCals. Why? If the answer is that they make money for small town teams, fine. If it is so some school can hang a banner or a kid can wear a jacket that says they are the D3 NorCal champ (should read, "this years 39th best team") then I don't get it.

What's wrong with playing in your section to earn the right to be among the small group of teams that advance to State playoffs? Win and advance. Lose and wrap up the season, move on to spring sports which are already well into competition, study and enjoy your friends. These kids have been competing and practicing since late October (4 months). Do they really need another week or two participating in a system where (for example) you are one slot away from being the #1 seed and favored in D3 versus the #16 prohibitive underdog in D2. Just seems like a farce and, more to the point, unnecessary.

 

[ankleassassin]

Alright. I'll ask the question. Why do we need all these NorCal divisions and games? What does it do for the school, program, kids? From Open down through D6, there are 93 teams playing in NorCals. Why? If the answer is that they make money for small town teams, fine. If it is so some school can hang a banner or a kid can wear a jacket that says they are the D3 NorCal champ (should read, "this years 39th best team") then I don't get it.

What's wrong with playing in your section to earn the right to be among the small group of teams that advance to State playoffs? Win and advance. Lose and wrap up the season, move on to spring sports which are already well into competition, study and enjoy your friends. These kids have been competing and practicing since late October (4 months). Do they really need another week or two participating in a system where (for example) you are one slot away from being the #1 seed and favored in D3 versus the #16 prohibitive underdog in D2. Just seems like a farce and, more to the point, unnecessary.

instead of asking old washed up has beens on the internet who never won any state titles... go to your local school and ask those athletes if they are either glad to be playing for a D3 title or wish they had been selected or won enough to get in. pretty certain you would get the answer you want.

 

[ClayK]

Could be. Nothing wrong with that plan.

There was a time there were no playoffs, no postseason, really. The TOC in Oakland, the Gridley tournament, .that was it.

But people like playoffs, kids like playoffs, coaches like playoffs. It's fun.

So maybe the answer that 93 teams get to have some fun. Nothing wrong with that either.

 

[Peninsula Pete]

Could be. Nothing wrong with that plan.

There was a time there were no playoffs, no postseason, really. The TOC in Oakland, the Gridley tournament, .that was it.

But people like playoffs, kids like playoffs, coaches like playoffs. It's fun.

So maybe the answer that 93 teams get to have some fun. Nothing wrong with that either.

Fair enough. I can more than accept that answer. I believe there was plenty of opportunity to "have fun" over the past four months without creating one more method to help make people feel good by winning something that is (best case) of no real consequence, and (worst case) a sham as the luck of the draw says they were #39 and so they won as opposed to better at #38 and lost. But if for most it only means one more week in the gym, and its fun for them, so be it.

 

[ClayK]

And I do have to say that it does mean something to coaches and players. From the inside -- that is, from the perspective of the team and parents -- it is a big deal. So you get some pretty good kids in a medium-size public school as freshmen, say. The school is mediocre, generally, .500 or so, gets to section occasionally, loses in first round.

That happens with the freshmen the first year. The next year you're a little better, maybe win a section game. Kids get excited, work a little harder, junior year, it's "Let's get to NorCals." We know we'll lose there, really, but that would mean couple good wins in section and maybe you get lucky.

Senior year everybody's hopeful. We're going to get to NorCals, win a couple games and then who knows? Maybe we get lucky, bank in a few threes, and we're playing for a NorCal title. Get really lucky, and we're in state.

A fantasy, of course, but a fun one. It's a great ride over those four years, and yeah, everybody knows we'd lose to Mitty by 50 but hey, we beat that D4 power that used to running-clock us, and then lost by six to a team that won state.

Big fun, great postseason banquet, all smiles ... sometimes being 39th is more than good enough.

 

[Peninsula Pete]

I understand. Thanks for the perspective Clay. I like the story of the slow climb to improve each year. Makes sense. And yes, no doubt, being #39 can be a lot of fun. It's being one better at #38, and now a #16 seed having to make a couple hour drive to lose badly where now I question, was that fun? Especially jaded when the difference between the two was primarily one being not better, but rather, to use your word, "lucky".

 

[bb-hoops]

Agree with cutting down on the brackets. Making Norcals was actually an achievement 20 years ago. Pretty sure coaches never got to go to the seeding meeting though.

Coaches went to pitch their teams seed years ago. I believe that coaches have the best sense of where teams belong. Have some coaches on the selection committees for additional knowledge and information.

 

[bb-hoops]

coaches picking is a conflict of interest.

Not necessarily to pick or vote but for knowledge and information that may help.

 

[ankleassassin]

Not necessarily to pick or vote but for knowledge and information that may help.

still a conflict... some coaches hold grudges.. u beat my team 98-3 i shouldnt have anything good to say about your team...

 

[iamgearyblvd]

We got AI tools now. Let the AI make the brackets.

 

[northbaybbguru]

Let me seed the girls side in norcal... I'll get it right down thru d4

 

[TightWadHill]

It's also hard to know the CCS quality of public school teams. The geographic distance & disparity from Gilroy to Salinas to Monterey to Santa Cruz, all along the peninsula coastline to San Francisco (WCAL) down to Los Altos Hills to Milpitas thru Santa Clara, Sunnyvale, Cupertino, Mountain View, Saratoga + Los Gatos to Mitty on Lawrence Expy to south San Jose (Valley Christian). I've left out Fremont, several schools in the Santa Cruz Mountains like Scotts Valley, San Lorenzo Valley, etc. Ten-fifteen years ago I heard that there were 211 high schools in the CCS. Since then many small private schools have emerged like Pinewood, Woodside Priory, East Palo Alto, Notre Dame-Belmont, etc. Take 101 from San Jose to SF and there are high schools all the way up on both sides of the freeway. How does one evaluate the demographics of this Silicon Valley Region? It's impossible.

Should Branham be a #1 seed in Div II because they captured Div I in the CCS? Doubtful. It should be interesting Nor Cal playoffs as always.

 

[EthanRKassel]

I made a very lengthy post about the competitive equity system and gave some suggestions on how to fix it, though I cited examples from the boys side, which I'm much more familiar with. Feel free to give it a read and let me know your thoughts!

 

[ClayK]

I think the key idea here is to define divisions -- and I like it. If there were a reasonable and equitable way to assign teams to divisions prior to the season it would be great. But it would have the same issues as assigning teams to divisions at the end of the season, except you would be basing those assignments on preseason guesswork rather than a full season's results.

But that's the ideal, really. You get assigned to a division that accurately reflects your competitive level, and then you stay in it unless you get pulled to the Open.

Have no idea how that might work, though ...

The NCS system referred to was so flawed it may have been abandoned in yesterday's vote. The biggest issue is that it moved a team up based on several years' results, but kept a team at that level after its stars graduated.

It also created a logjam in the top division, as eventually all the powers got there, meaning the "true" D1 teams were now competing against private school powers just to get a shot at NorCals.

And of course it doesn't matter what system you use, because some teams will always be at the bottom of one division or bracket and some other teams will always be at the top of one division or bracket -- and the difference between them will be minuscule.

There is no good system, as a look at all 50 states will show. Each one has significant flaws, and some strengths.

The whining is always fun, though ...

 

[Mo Green]

Coaches went to pitch their teams seed years ago. I believe that coaches have the best sense of where teams belong. Have some coaches on the selection committees for additional knowledge and information.

we used to do it for sectionals but never for NorCals