(Monterey Trail) Mustangs to the Delta?

[ThunderRam]

I’d like to see a league with Jesuit, St. Mary’s, Central Catholic, Capital Christian, and Christian Brothers….

That’d be tough to pull off, I think.

I feel like there’d need to be one more private located in the Southern portion of the SJS to make travel fair, but IDK of one that is close enough in size to the latter three. Ripon Christian is D6 or D7 IIRC. Too small.

 

[mistark]

MT, Vacaville in the South?

 

[MTsince2004]

MT, Vacaville in the South?

Yeah, that was problematic. It was just a quick balancing thing. In reality, those MEL teams would probably just have to be in their own league. Maybe have Davis down there with them. I was just brainstorming and spit-balling.

Historically, though, the MEL was lumped into the southern portion of the section. Back in the 70's through the 90's when the Section was purely North-South, teams like Vintage, Napa, Fairfield, and Vacaville all represented the South in championship games. That distinction ended sometime in the early 2000's.

 

[NCS707]

Yeah, that was problematic. It was just a quick balancing thing. In reality, those MEL teams would probably just have to be in their own league. Maybe have Davis down there with them. I was just brainstorming and spit-balling.

Historically, though, the MEL was lumped into the southern portion of the section. Back in the 70's through the 90's when the Section was purely North-South, teams like Vintage, Napa, Fairfield, and Vacaville all represented the South in championship games. That distinction ended sometime in the early 2000's.

Should more of Solano join NCS? Napa County is now completely in the NCS as is Vallejo/Benicia

 

[BigMann08]

That’d be tough to pull off, I think.

I feel like there’d need to be one more private located in the Southern portion of the SJS to make travel fair, but IDK of one that is close enough in size to the latter three. Ripon Christian is D6 or D7 IIRC. Too small.

Yeah that would be tough. They could possibly play games on Saturday, which would make traveling easier.

 

[pastyfastquick3]

17 female transfers and not one football player. Unlike Folsom and their out of state transfers...

12/17 transfers for Folsom are females.

 

[MTsince2004]

In a 5-2 vote, the Delta League has rejected the Monterey Trail proposal to join.

There was at least one proposal for MT to swap with Davis just for football.

There may have been a second proposal for MT to join outright for football and balance the league at 8 teams.

Either way, it is not happening.

 

[BigMann08]

In a 5-2 vote, the Delta League has rejected the Monterey Trail proposal to join.

There was at least one proposal for MT to swap with Davis just for football.

There may have been a second proposal for MT to join outright for football and balance the league at 8 teams.

Either way, it is not happening.

I’m curious, why don’t they want MT in the Delta?

 

[RidgeRider]

In a 5-2 vote, the Delta League has rejected the Monterey Trail proposal to join.

There was at least one proposal for MT to swap with Davis just for football.

There may have been a second proposal for MT to join outright for football and balance the league at 8 teams.

Either way, it is not happening.

What is the next logical option now that both Delta and SFL were not interested?

 

[salgovernaleisaturtle]

What is the next logical option now that both Delta and SFL were not interested?

I think wait for the next realignment cycle which starts 2024-25. The process starts pretty soon. Get some allies to join their cause and plead their case to the committee. Otherwise, it's status quo.

 

[MTsince2004]

I think wait for the next realignment cycle which starts 2024-25. The process starts pretty soon. Get some allies to join their cause and plead their case to the committee. Otherwise, it's status quo.

Yes, that's pretty much it. There really is no other recourse and that is the timeline that we are on.

The early brainstorm proposals are already starting to circulate.

 

[MTsince2004]

I’m curious, why don’t they want MT in the Delta?

Well, the unofficial conversation that I had with a lower-level Delta coach went pretty much like this:

Me: What does your program think about MT coming into the Delta for football?

Him: We don't want to give up one of our pre-league games with an 8 team league.

Me: Well, what if MT swapped with one of the teams and kept the schedule the same?

Him: Then we're stuck with the bye during the league season. We don't want an odd number of teams in the league.

Me: (Squints real hard in confusion, then walks away)

 

[mrbig864]

Well, the unofficial conversation that I had with a lower-level Delta coach went pretty much like this:

Me: What does your program think about MT coming into the Delta for football?

Him: We don't want to give up one of our pre-league games with an 8 team league.

Me: Well, what if MT swapped with one of the teams and kept the schedule the same?

Him: Then we're stuck with the bye during the league season. We don't want an odd number of teams in the league.

Me: (Squints real hard in confusion, then walks away)

🤣😂🤣😂

 

[ThunderRam]

Well, the unofficial conversation that I had with a lower-level Delta coach went pretty much like this:

Me: What does your program think about MT coming into the Delta for football?

Him: We don't want to give up one of our pre-league games with an 8 team league.

Me: Well, what if MT swapped with one of the teams and kept the schedule the same?

Him: Then we're stuck with the bye during the league season. We don't want an odd number of teams in the league.

Me: (Squints real hard in confusion, then walks away)

Perhaps a brand new football only league can be started up comprising of programs nobody seems to want in their own league. /s

We can start this new "Island of Misfit Toys" league off with both Folsom and Monterey Trail, apparently.

Then, in this new hypothetical football only league -- travel won't be an issue. So we add De La Salle next.

So we're up to: Folsom, Monterey Trail and De La Salle.

Who else can we add? Maybe Grant Union just from a historical standpoint, since for a long time nobody wanted to play them either?? Who else???

If Serra-SM continues doing what they've been doing the past few seasons perhaps they'll become eligible soon. LMFAO.

 

[BigMann08]

Well, the unofficial conversation that I had with a lower-level Delta coach went pretty much like this:

Me: What does your program think about MT coming into the Delta for football?

Him: We don't want to give up one of our pre-league games with an 8 team league.

Me: Well, what if MT swapped with one of the teams and kept the schedule the same?

Him: Then we're stuck with the bye during the league season. We don't want an odd number of teams in the league.

Me: (Squints real hard in confusion, then walks away)

That’s tough.

 

[MTsince2004]

Perhaps a brand new football only league can be started up comprising of programs nobody seems to want in their own league. /s

We can start this new "Island of Misfit Toys" league off with both Folsom and Monterey Trail, apparently.

Then, in this new hypothetical football only league -- travel won't be an issue. So we add De La Salle next.

So we're up to: Folsom, Monterey Trail and De La Salle.

Who else can we add? Maybe Grant Union just from a historical standpoint, since for a long time nobody wanted to play them either?? Who else???

If Serra-SM continues doing what they've been doing the past few seasons perhaps they'll become eligible soon. LMFAO.

"Island of Misfit Toys."

Solid reference.

 

[observer22]

Perhaps a brand new football only league can be started up comprising of programs nobody seems to want in their own league. /s

We can start this new "Island of Misfit Toys" league off with both Folsom and Monterey Trail, apparently.

Then, in this new hypothetical football only league -- travel won't be an issue. So we add De La Salle next.

So we're up to: Folsom, Monterey Trail and De La Salle.

Who else can we add? Maybe Grant Union just from a historical standpoint, since for a long time nobody wanted to play them either?? Who else???

If Serra-SM continues doing what they've been doing the past few seasons perhaps they'll become eligible soon. LMFAO.

Clayton Valley Charter should be eligible, since they were basically kicked out of the Diablo Foothill league for winning too much. Campo and company had seen too much, so they were shipped over to the EBAL Mountain for football only. Since DLS would be moving to the IMFT for football ball only, might as well take the other misfit with them.

 

[concrete17]

"Island of Misfit Toys."

Solid reference.

......or.....".Infederation of Magnificent Teams". 😎

 

[FLAGRANT]

MT would have been a MUCH better fit for the SFL than the Grant disaster.

I think MT would pose a bigger threat to Folsom most years over OR, Rocklin, and DO.

Did Folsom win the SFL last year? Or did they get blown out by Rocklin? Can’t remember

 

[MTsince2004]

Did Folsom win the SFL last year? Or did they get blown out by Rocklin? Can’t remember

To be fair to @pastyfastquick3, he was just being historically accurate.

Monterey Trail has two wins vs. Folsom in 10 tries. No SFL team has more than one win in 10 tries, and they all came when Tremain was hurt or in 2009 (Del Oro). Oak Ridge has the most wins of an SFL team vs Folsom, but those are from 2004-2006. In 2018, no SFL team even sniffed competing with Folsom. MT was only down a TD at halftime of the championship game that year before Folsom exploded in the 3rd quarter. Still, MT almost matched the entire scoring production of the SFL in just one game (SFL 27-MT 25).

It's really more of a style thing. Styles make fights. MT just typically does more than other teams when having far fewer D-1 athletes and total players in general.

 

[ThunderRam]

To be fair to @pastyfastquick3, he was just being historically accurate.

Monterey Trail has two wins vs. Folsom in 10 tries. No SFL team has more than one win in 10 tries, and they all came when Tremain was hurt or in 2009 (Del Oro).

You claim historical accuracy but are being a bit liberal and selective about it, no?

For instance, you call out and separate Del Oro's win in 2009 -- but that was also the same year that 1 of Monterey Trail's 2 wins occurred. Before Folsom's current dominant run really started.

Next, citing Tyler Tremain's injury is also a bit misleading and selective, isn't it? Wasn't Rocklin's starting QB Kenny Lueth out for the same game? Then again during their rematch which Folsom won with Tremain back at the helm? You didn't feel the need to call that out for some reason. Interesting.

Rocklin was also missing their stud starter Max O'Rourke against Folsom in 2014 in a game that was only a 7-point difference when the inexperienced backup threw a pick 6 just before half. How many other games might Folsom have benefited from key injuries? It goes both ways. So there's really no need to mention it.

Next, if you really want to be historically accurate and fair -- we can pretty much discount any game or win prior to 2010. That's the season where Folsom's current run really began. It was their first section title since 1990 and they've made an appearance in the section final in all but one season since (they lost to MT prior to the Finals in 2019; no playoffs were held in 2020).

So 2010 is clearly the starting point. But if you really want to count Monterey Trail's win in 2009 and make that the starting point to boost up their resume, that's fine with me.

What about the other 5 match ups against Folsom aside from those 2 wins (since 2009)?

5 blowouts. Not a single game within 28 points. Average score of the losses = 54-18.

Meanwhile since 2014 when Folsom joined the SFL....

• Rocklin has 1 win, and games within 7, 14 and 17 points.
• Oak Ridge has no wins, but games within 1, 3, 5, 10, 14, and 14 points.
• Granite Bay has 1 win, and games within 10, 13 and 21 points.
• Del Oro has no wins, and no games within 27 points. Average score 45-7.
• Whitney has no wins, and no games within 27 points. Average score 52-12.

So judging from above it looks to me as if the top 3 have been more competitive on average against Folsom than MT. And the Mustangs appear to fit in more with Del Oro and Whitney having played no other game to within 28 and losing by an average of 38 per game.

Also, if we're being historically accurate and fair -- we should also include Grant Union. I mean, like Monterey Trail they aren't currently in the SFL, but they also own 2 wins over Folsom since 2009 as well as 5 blowout losses.

• Grant Union has 2 wins, but no other games within 21 points. Average score of the losses = 52-13.

Since the point of your post was to somehow qualify Monterey Trail as more competitive against Folsom than the current lineup of the SFL -- does that mean the Pacers should be added back into the league based upon their 2 wins in 2010 and 2011?

The only real difference between the Mustangs and Pacers resumes is that one of MT's wins against Folsom occurred more recently. Otherwise they've both been body bag opponents during the other 5 matchups.

It's really more of a style thing. Styles make fights. MT just typically does more than other teams when having far fewer D-1 athletes and total players in general.

Considering that MT's "style" is running the veer to eat up clock and limit the number of plays by their opponent -- doesn't that kinda make their 38 point average margin of defeat to Folsom much, much worse and much less competitive than it already appears?

I'm not trying to pick a fight, so don't take the above personally. I'm just pushing back on the notion that MT has been more competitive against Folsom than most the current lineup of the SFL. They've only been more competitive than Del Oro and Whitney. By virtue of that one win in 2019. Not by any other measure.

MT is surely a very good program and has been since 2009. And I'd like to see them in the SFL, along with Jesuit.

But 1 win and 6 blowout losses by an average of 38 points over the past 9 years doesn't demonstrate what you're suggesting.

 

[MTsince2004]

You claim historical accuracy but are being a bit liberal and selective about it, no?

For instance, you call out and separate Del Oro's win in 2009 -- but that was also the same year that 1 of Monterey Trail's 2 wins occurred. Before Folsom's current dominant run really started.

Next, citing Tyler Tremain's injury is also a bit misleading and selective, isn't it? Wasn't Rocklin's starting QB Kenny Lueth out for the same game? Then again during their rematch which Folsom won with Tremain back at the helm? You didn't feel the need to call that out for some reason. Interesting.

Rocklin was also missing their stud starter Max O'Rourke against Folsom in 2014 in a game that was only a 7-point difference when the inexperienced backup threw a pick 6 just before half. How many other games might Folsom have benefited from key injuries? It goes both ways. So there's really no need to mention it.

Next, if you really want to be historically accurate and fair -- we can pretty much discount any game or win prior to 2010. That's the season where Folsom's current run really began. It was their first section title since 1990 and they've made an appearance in the section final in all but one season since (they lost to MT prior to the Finals in 2019; no playoffs were held in 2020).

So 2010 is clearly the starting point. But if you really want to count Monterey Trail's win in 2009 and make that the starting point to boost up their resume, that's fine with me.

What about the other 5 match ups against Folsom aside from those 2 wins (since 2009)?

5 blowouts. Not a single game within 28 points. Average score of the losses = 54-18.

Meanwhile since 2014 when Folsom joined the SFL....

• Rocklin has 1 win, and games within 7, 14 and 17 points.
• Oak Ridge has no wins, but games within 1, 3, 5, 10, 14, and 14 points.
• Granite Bay has 1 win, and games within 10, 13 and 21 points.
• Del Oro has no wins, and no games within 27 points. Average score 45-7.
• Whitney has no wins, and no games within 27 points. Average score 52-12.

So judging from above it looks to me as if the top 3 have been more competitive on average against Folsom than MT. And the Mustangs appear to fit in more with Del Oro and Whitney having played no other game to within 28 and losing by an average of 38 per game.

Also, if we're being historically accurate and fair -- we should also include Grant Union. I mean, like Monterey Trail they aren't currently in the SFL, but they also own 2 wins over Folsom since 2009 as well as 5 blowout losses.

• Grant Union has 2 wins, but no other games within 21 points. Average score of the losses = 52-13.

Since the point of your post was to somehow qualify Monterey Trail as more competitive against Folsom than the current lineup of the SFL -- does that mean the Pacers should be added back into the league based upon their 2 wins in 2010 and 2011?

The only real difference between the Mustangs and Pacers resumes is that one of MT's wins against Folsom occurred more recently. Otherwise they've both been body bag opponents during the other 5 matchups.




Considering that MT's "style" is running the veer to eat up clock and limit the number of plays by their opponent -- doesn't that kinda make their 38 point average margin of defeat to Folsom much, much worse and much less competitive than it already appears?

I'm not trying to pick a fight, so don't take the above personally. I'm just pushing back on the notion that MT has been more competitive against Folsom than most the current lineup of the SFL. They've only been more competitive than Del Oro and Whitney. By virtue of that one win in 2019. Not by any other measure.

MT is surely a very good program and has been since 2009. And I'd like to see them in the SFL, along with Jesuit.

But 1 win and 6 blowout losses by an average of 38 points over the past 9 years doesn't demonstrate what you're suggesting.

Yeah, you did a lot of work for all of that.

I was just pointing out that @pastyfastquick3 wasn't necessarily trolling when he made his statement.

I wasn't denigrating Del Oro's win vs Folsom in 2009. I was just pointing out that was when they won it. I simply went back ten games because that was the fewest played by an SFL opponent.

Folsom is the dominant program in the Sacramento area since 2009, though they were not a section champ that year. In reality, going back to that date, MT has won 2 of 7 (not 1-6). No other SFL school has a better than 1-9 record in that time span. Close losses are still very much losses. This isn't horseshoes.

In that time span, Folsom has blown out pretty much everybody in the SJS by as much or more. Although, as you have pointed out, Grant has had similar success (2-5) in a seven game run, but not as recently.

However, the real root of all of this is a couple of simple facts. The SFL has tried to vote Folsom out of their league and has twice voted to keep MT out (Spring 2021 season and the Fall 2021 season).

Like I said, it's not that MT is so much much better than any SFL team. After all, Monterey Trail is just a Title I public school in the South Sac/Elk Grove area. It's just that they have actually beaten a healthy Folsom team in the last decade and twice in the last 7 tries. No other SFL team can actually say that. I'm not sure how you can say that is a particularly liberal use of the facts. I mean, they're just facts.

 

[RidgeRider]

Yeah, you did a lot of work for all of that.

I was just pointing out that @pastyfastquick3 wasn't necessarily trolling when he made his statement.

I wasn't denigrating Del Oro's win vs Folsom in 2009. I was just pointing out that was when they won it. I simply went back ten games because that was the fewest played by an SFL opponent.

Folsom is the dominant program in the Sacramento area since 2009, though they were not a section champ that year. In reality, going back to that date, MT has won 2 of 7 (not 1-6). No other SFL school has a better than 1-9 record in that time span. Close losses are still very much losses. This isn't horseshoes.

In that time span, Folsom has blown out pretty much everybody in the SJS by as much or more. Although, as you have pointed out, Grant has had similar success (2-5) in a seven game run, but not as recently.

However, the real root of all of this is a couple of simple facts. The SFL has tried to vote Folsom out of their league and has twice voted to keep MT out (Spring 2021 season and the Fall 2021 season).

Like I said, it's not that MT is so much much better than any SFL team. After all, Monterey Trail is just a Title I public school in the South Sac/Elk Grove area. It's just that they have actually beaten a healthy Folsom team in the last decade and twice in the last 7 tries. No other SFL team can actually say that. I'm not sure how you can say that is a particularly liberal use of the facts. I mean, they're just facts.

All I can add is DO hosted Trail in the year DO lost to Granite Bay in the section finals with a decent DO team, and handled MT pretty easily. Wasn't a blowout but it wasn't close either. The Final was 28-6 and Folsom blew DO out 54-10 that year. I thought MT was pretty good in that game but the only league wins we had like that, were against Woodcreek and Nevada Union that season. We lost to Rocklin, Folsom, Granite Bay, and OR that season.

 

[FBAddict]

Next, if you really want to be historically accurate and fair -- we can pretty much discount any game or win prior to 2010. That's the season where Folsom's current run really began. It was their first section title since 1990 and they've made an appearance in the section final in all but one season since (they lost to MT prior to the Finals in 2019; no playoffs were held in 2020).

All very good arguments - but i had to laugh at this one.... To be historically accurate - you have to exclude part of the actual history?!? - To let you know I was actually understanding what you wrote, you did say "accurate AND fair." But you have to admit the way you wrote it was satirically humorous.

 

[MTsince2004]

All I can add is DO hosted Trail in the year DO lost to Granite Bay in the section finals with a decent DO team, and handled MT pretty easily. Wasn't a blowout but it wasn't close either. The Final was 28-6 and Folsom blew DO out 54-10 that year. I thought MT was pretty good in that game but the only league wins we had like that, were against Woodcreek and Nevada Union that season. We lost to Rocklin, Folsom, Granite Bay, and OR that season.

True enough. Monterey Trail ebbs and flows in their success. They typically do not have a team with more than 28-35 players and seldom have much D1 talent. There was also a period when there was no feeder program. Those were the leaner years. 2011 to 2017 were teams that were just getting to 5-5 or 6-4 with the Jr. Mustang players just starting to mature. 2014 went on a decent run in the playoffs after finishing 6-4 and 5th in the Delta, but all the other teams in that period either did not qualify or were one-and-done in the playoffs.

 

[RidgeRider]

True enough. Monterey Trail ebbs and flows in their success. They typically do not have a team with more than 28-35 players and seldom have much D1 talent. There was also a period when there was no feeder program. Those were the leaner years. 2011 to 2017 were teams that were just getting to 5-5 or 6-4 with the Jr. Mustang players just starting to mature. 2014 went on a decent run in the playoffs after finishing 6-4 and 5th in the Delta, but all the other teams in that period either did not qualify or were one-and-done in the playoffs.

With all due credit, I thought MT was pretty good that night but heard they had just recently adopted the veer. I told a friend at that game that night, that they (MT) have a couple more seasons with that offense, and they will be a very good team. Agree, teams ebb and flow, and DO definitely does. DO does not seem to turn out many D1 athletes either. It's a fairly small school and while turnout is usually pretty good, there is often not a lot of depth, so injuries can be really impactful. MT should be proud of what they accomplish with their squad size.

 

[RidgeRider]

Rocklin was also missing their stud starter Max O'Rourke against Folsom in 2014 in a game that was only a 7-point difference when the inexperienced backup threw a pick 6 just before half. How many other games might Folsom have benefited from key injuries? It goes both ways. So there's really no need to mention it.

Max was a very very good QB. Great kid too. His numbers were near on PAR with the kid from Folsom that year who benefitted from lots of 4th qtr play time in blowout wins.

 

[BigMann08]

Does MT travel well?

Maybe the CIF-SJS will consider grouping MT, OR, and Folsom together, since all three schools participate in the D1 playoffs.

 

[RidgeRider]

Does MT travel well?

Maybe the CIF-SJS will consider grouping MT, OR, and Folsom together, since all three schools participate in the D1 playoffs.

BigMann, when they came to DO, my impression was yes. Good turnout and devoted fans.

 

[MTsince2004]

Does MT travel well?

Maybe the CIF-SJS will consider grouping MT, OR, and Folsom together, since all three schools participate in the D1 playoffs.

The families make the trip, usually, but there aren't bus loads of kids going. That costs cash.

MT, Folsom, Oak Ridge, Jesuit, Davis, Grant, Pleasant Grove, Franklin, Sheldon, and Laguna Creek used to make up the main schools in the old Delta River and Delta Valley leagues. Bringing those sister leagues back with Cosumnes Oaks making it an even dozen for football would be kinda nice. Not going to happen, but it would be nice. Mix them up every few years like they did 2006 to 2013.

 

[ThunderRam]

All very good arguments - but i had to laugh at this one.... To be historically accurate - you have to exclude part of the actual history?!? - To let you know I was actually understanding what you wrote, you did say "accurate AND fair." But you have to admit the way you wrote it was satirically humorous.

Well, since I outlined why 2010 was the logical starting point for such comparisons -- yes, it was necessary to exclude the irrelevant part of history. I do appreciate that you found some humor in it, I admit.

You'll notice I also didn't count Del Oro's 2009 win as that doesn't fall under Folsom's current reign, as they weren't yet winning titles or fielding the stable of ringers transfers they have steadily built up year-over-year since.

I mean, the 18-5 record Oak Ridge owns over Folsom from 1982 through 2006 is super, but wholly irrelevant.

 

[ThunderRam]

Max was a very very good QB. Great kid too. His numbers were near on PAR with the kid from Folsom that year who benefitted from lots of 4th qtr play time in blowout wins.

I know that was arguably Folsom's best team ever .. but RHS played them well the 1st half with their back up William Floyd playing QB and were driving to tie the game late in the half when Floyd threw the pick 6. It was all downhill from there (and Folsom did pile on and run up the score late to make it look more impressive).

But I still feel that had Max been healthy and played that game might have ended up being a lot closer than most expected. Kinda like Kenny Lueth last season and Jimmy Laughrea in 2009 -- Rocklin's offense was dynamic and at a different level when he was behind center.

 

[RidgeRider]

I know that was arguably Folsom's best team ever .. but RHS played them well the 1st half with their back up William Floyd playing QB and were driving to tie the game late in the half when Floyd threw the pick 6. It was all downhill from there (and Folsom did pile on and run up the score late to make it look more impressive).

But I still feel that had Max been healthy and played that game might have ended up being a lot closer than most expected. Kinda like Kenny Lueth last season and Jimmy Laughrea in 2009 -- Rocklin's offense was dynamic and at a different level when he was behind center.

I agree. That game would have been much closer. Max had outstanding numbers that season and went down against DO, which I felt bad about for him because I know what great young man he is and how he was overshadowed in the SFL by the guy who was slinging it in the 4th quarter against 2nd stringers.