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Will the SJS ever go to an OPEN division playoff structure

BoutDatAction

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Oct 28, 2019
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Sacramento, Ca
With the NCS and CCS having an open division and providing teams like Pitt and Saint Francis, an opportunity to still win a section championship but to then go on and play in a NorCal game and Pitt going on to a state bowl. Will the SJS ever conform to the playoff structure of having a team like Oak Ridge who loses to Folsom in let’s say the “Open” division championship game then drops down into the “D1” bracket and plays the Grant vs Rocklin winner who ended up being Grant. Should the SJS entertain the possibility of an open division? Which schools would be in that division in a 4 team bracket?
 
I hope not. It's a bad look. If you lose you should be out.
I used to be totally against these open formats, but after watching the NCS the last 2 years, it really seems to work well….

Last year we got DLS vs SRV, PITT vs SRV and Folsom vs PITT all as playoff games….

This year we got SRV vs Cardinal Newman, PITT vs DLS, PITT vs SRV and Folsom vs PITT all as playoff games….

This format has made it where the games are much more entertaining, the matchups were terrific the last 2 years….

And it’s hard to think of PITT as a “Loser Moves On Team” when they Beat Folsom who Many thought was the best team in Nor Cal…..

It’s really quite the Dilemma at this point and I feel myself coming around…. 🤣
 
I used to be totally against these open formats, but after watching the NCS the last 2 years, it really seems to work well….

Last year we got DLS vs SRV, PITT vs SRV and Folsom vs PITT all as playoff games….

This year we got SRV vs Cardinal Newman, PITT vs DLS, PITT vs SRV and Folsom vs PITT all as playoff games….

This format has made it where the games are much more entertaining, the matchups were terrific the last 2 years….

And it’s hard to think of PITT as a “Loser Moves On Team” when they Beat Folsom who Many thought was the best team in Nor Cal…..

It’s really quite the Dilemma at this point and I feel myself coming around…. 🤣
I accept it and definitely enjoyed the games but for me it's still a no, based on principle... lol

I love Pitt's program, but their season should have ended after losing to De la Salle. That's a game they should have won on the field. Additionally, they shouldn't have been rewarded with a home game against Folsom, after losing in the playoffs.

If DLS is an unbeatable opponent, I'd rather see them compete in the CCS/WCAL with all of the other Catholic schools. The winner can just play in the Open.

This way schools like Pitt and SRV can duke it out like Folsom and Oak Ridge.

If we're going to allow Pitt and SF to continue playing then Clovis North, Bosco, Oak Ridge, and Newbury Park should be allowed too! Then sooner or later we'll find ourselves needing to provide those accommodations for all divisions lol
 
I accept it and definitely enjoyed the games but for me it's still a no, based on principle... lol

I love Pitt's program, but their season should have ended after losing to De la Salle. That's a game they should have won on the field. Additionally, they shouldn't have been rewarded with a home game against Folsom, after losing in the playoffs.

If DLS is an unbeatable opponent, I'd rather see them compete in the CCS/WCAL with all of the other Catholic schools. The winner can just play in the Open.

This way schools like Pitt and SRV can duke it out like Folsom and Oak Ridge.

If we're going to allow Pitt and SF to continue playing then Clovis North, Bosco, Oak Ridge, and Newbury Park should be allowed too! Then sooner or later we'll find ourselves needing to provide those accommodations for all divisions lol
Exactly right, that’s why I have always been against it… And why now I find it a Dilemma because I still want to hate it…. 🤣

And goodness help us all they day SSD1 goes “Open” like the NCS and CCS…. Then you get MD and SJB both moving on…. 🤣🤣
 
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I like the idea of only champions moving on but then SJS needs to put their top teams in an Open bracket too. Can’t have some sections do it but not all. Then again in basketball we get four teams per division moving on so there’s that.
 
Come on let’s say Folsom v OR was the Open championship.. who wouldn’t want to see Grant up and running in full swing in a rematch vs OR? The section wins there.. that’s a packed house game! It gives the section a great quality game!
 
I accept it and definitely enjoyed the games but for me it's still a no, based on principle... lol

I love Pitt's program, but their season should have ended after losing to De la Salle. That's a game they should have won on the field. Additionally, they shouldn't have been rewarded with a home game against Folsom, after losing in the playoffs.

If DLS is an unbeatable opponent, I'd rather see them compete in the CCS/WCAL with all of the other Catholic schools. The winner can just play in the Open.

This way schools like Pitt and SRV can duke it out like Folsom and Oak Ridge.

If we're going to allow Pitt and SF to continue playing then Clovis North, Bosco, Oak Ridge, and Newbury Park should be allowed too! Then sooner or later we'll find ourselves needing to provide those accommodations for all divisions lol
I always felt DLS should have joined the WCAL years ago. But I do understand the brutal travel that would mean for the Spartans
 
I've said this many times before, but the main difference between sports like baseball/basketball/hockey and football is logistics of having only one game a week. In pretty much every other sport, a team can lose a game in the playoffs and continue. We frown on this for football because the logistics has it so ingrained in our heads that anything else causes a short circuit.

But the NCS found a way around that.

I also find it funny how many of the same people who are against this are also against the competitive equity divisions.

"Oh, there were so many more worthy teams! The team advancing has 4 losses, while this other team lost one game and they're out!"

Well, the NCS/CCS Open division provides an answer do that to a degree, does it not?
 
I always felt DLS should have joined the WCAL years ago. But I do understand the brutal travel that would mean for the Spartans
Traveling to the west bay from concord is not a daunting task. They just traveled to London for a game come on now 😂 and they’ve traveled all around the country in years past. Don’t make it seem like an impossible task when it is definitely possible.
 
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I've said this many times before, but the main difference between sports like baseball/basketball/hockey and football is logistics of having only one game a week. In pretty much every other sport, a team can lose a game in the playoffs and continue. We frown on this for football because the logistics has it so ingrained in our heads that anything else causes a short circuit.

But the NCS found a way around that.

I also find it funny how many of the same people who are against this are also against the competitive equity divisions.

"Oh, there were so many more worthy teams! The team advancing has 4 losses, while this other team lost one game and they're out!"

Well, the NCS/CCS Open division provides an answer do that to a degree, does it not?
The current NCS and CCS Open Brackets fail to uphold the competitive integrity and elite showcase that an Open Division should represent. While credit can be given to these sections for attempting something new, their current systems inadvertently highlight flaws and provide valuable data for crafting an excellent solution. A clear path forward would involve moving DLS to the CCS and placing them in the WCAL. The WCAL already features elite programs like Serra, Saint Francis, and Saint Francis and others. Making it the most competitive league in the CCS. Adding DLS to this league would booster the WCAL, CCS and NorCal football!

DLS has outgrown the competitive landscape of the NCS, where their dominance often leads to predictable outcomes. (Although Pitt and SRV have played them tough recently).

In the WCAL, they would face meaningful regular-season challenges, ensuring better preparation for postseason play.

To complement this change, the CCS could create a true Open Division by taking the top four teams from the WCAL and letting them compete in a dedicated bracket. Matchups would feature the best of the best—1 vs. 4 and 2 vs. 3—culminating in a championship game. This guarantees elite-level competition while removing weaker teams from the bracket, preserving the integrity of the Open Division. The CCS Open champion would then advance to the CIF State Bowl to face powerhouses like MD or SJB, ensuring that NorCal’s best teams compete on the biggest stage.

This change would establish a competitive NorCal Regional format. (We've seen that the past two seasons with Folsom and Pitt.

With this system, the SJS, NCS, CS, and CCS Division 1 champions would compete for a NorCal title, with the winner advancing to the CIF Division 1 State Bowl.

This system would allow each section to crown its own Division 1 champion while maintaining a pathway to state-level competition.

Meanwhile, the Open Division champion from CCS (e.g., DLS or a WCAL team) would directly compete with Southern Section Open powerhouses for the state title.
 
Traveling to the west bay from concord is not a daunting task. They just traveled to London for a game come on now 😂 and they’ve traveled all around the country in years past. Don’t make it seem like an impossible task when it is definitely possible.
Ain't that the truth! You beat me to my point hahahaha
 
I always felt DLS should have joined the WCAL years ago. But I do understand the brutal travel that would mean for the Spartans
You are correct! You beat me to my point!

*My bad you said this earlier this morning! lol I agree!

The data shows that that's the realistic and practical solution!
 
Traveling to the west bay from concord is not a daunting task. They just traveled to London for a game come on now 😂 and they’ve traveled all around the country in years past. Don’t make it seem like an impossible task when it is definitely possible.
They can travel all around the world but not through SJ and SF lol
 
I always felt DLS should have joined the WCAL years ago. But I do understand the brutal travel that would mean for the Spartans
I definitely agree that DLS should be a part of the WCAL. In fact, the move was seriously negotiated 15 or so years ago. WCAL agreed to allow DLS membership. But the Spartans declined because WCAL required that all DLS sports be included in the WCAL membership. Football alone was workable but all sports was just too much.
 
In the WCAL, they would face meaningful regular-season challenges, ensuring better preparation for postseason play.
But would they really?…… until 2021 the WCAL was no more Competitive with DLS then the NCS/EBAL….

In 2021 SF beat DLS Followed by Serra in 2022 and 2023….

Since then DLS has Boatraced SF three times 2022, 2023 and 2024, Serra this year…. During that same period SRV almost Beat DLS twice and PITT almost beat them twice….

So I am not so sure that the results would be all that different…. In 2021 DLS could have very well beat both SF and Serra in the playoffs and there would be no SBG for Serra….

In 2022, DLS only lost to Serra by 3 points…. DLS could have very much won a playoff rematch with Serra and again, no SBG for Serra….

In 2023 DLS lost 28-0 to Serra, but was playing significantly better at the end of they year…. They could have also knocked Serra out of the playoffs as well….

I agree it would be an amazing league with DLS in it, but not sure it would be anymore competitive then what we are currently seeing in the NCS….
 
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I definitely agree that DLS should be a part of the WCAL. In fact, the move was seriously negotiated 15 or so years ago. WCAL agreed to allow DLS membership. But the Spartans declined because WCAL required that all DLS sports be included in the WCAL membership. Football alone was workable but all sports was just too much.
For every sport it would be difficult. For football only I don’t see why not
 
I definitely agree that DLS should be a part of the WCAL. In fact, the move was seriously negotiated 15 or so years ago. WCAL agreed to allow DLS membership. But the Spartans declined because WCAL required that all DLS sports be included in the WCAL membership. Football alone was workable but all sports was just too much.
Yes, you can’t expect all the other sports to take on that travel regularly, Football once a week is fine, but not for other sports…..
 
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Yes, you can’t expect all the other sports to take on that travel regularly, Football once a week is fine, but not for other sports…..
You can't expect the WCAL to accept a team for their best sport only, only Sacred Heart Prep is allowed to do that 🤣
 
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They can travel all around the world but not through SJ and SF lol
Traveling overseas and across the country is once a year. It might be feasible for football only, but every sport, much tougher. But I think they could try it with football and see how that goes. Or, join the WCAL only in football, and the other sports could remain in the EBAL
 
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The current NCS and CCS Open Brackets fail to uphold the competitive integrity and elite showcase that an Open Division should represent. While credit can be given to these sections for attempting something new, their current systems inadvertently highlight flaws and provide valuable data for crafting an excellent solution. A clear path forward would involve moving DLS to the CCS and placing them in the WCAL. The WCAL already features elite programs like Serra, Saint Francis, and Saint Francis and others. Making it the most competitive league in the CCS. Adding DLS to this league would booster the WCAL, CCS and NorCal football!

DLS has outgrown the competitive landscape of the NCS, where their dominance often leads to predictable outcomes. (Although Pitt and SRV have played them tough recently).

In the WCAL, they would face meaningful regular-season challenges, ensuring better preparation for postseason play.

To complement this change, the CCS could create a true Open Division by taking the top four teams from the WCAL and letting them compete in a dedicated bracket. Matchups would feature the best of the best—1 vs. 4 and 2 vs. 3—culminating in a championship game. This guarantees elite-level competition while removing weaker teams from the bracket, preserving the integrity of the Open Division. The CCS Open champion would then advance to the CIF State Bowl to face powerhouses like MD or SJB, ensuring that NorCal’s best teams compete on the biggest stage.

This change would establish a competitive NorCal Regional format. (We've seen that the past two seasons with Folsom and Pitt.

With this system, the SJS, NCS, CS, and CCS Division 1 champions would compete for a NorCal title, with the winner advancing to the CIF Division 1 State Bowl.

This system would allow each section to crown its own Division 1 champion while maintaining a pathway to state-level competition.

Meanwhile, the Open Division champion from CCS (e.g., DLS or a WCAL team) would directly compete with Southern Section Open powerhouses for the state title.
So... you're conceding that the SJS isn't up to snuff? Is this now the latest excuse for hiding teams in D2?

The Open Divisions fail to uphold the "elite showcase"? Based on whose standards?

You're really grasping at straws now.
 
But would they really?…… until 2021 the WCAL was no more Competitive with DLS then the NCS/EBAL….

In 2021 SF beat DLS Followed by Serra in 2022 and 2023….

Since then DLS has Boatraced SF three times 2022, 2023 and 2024, Serra this year…. During that same period SRV almost Beat DLS twice and PITT almost beat them twice….

So I am not so sure that the results would be all that different…. In 2021 DLS could have very well beat both SF and Serra in the playoffs and there would be no SBG for Serra….

In 2022, DLS only lost to Serra by 3 points…. DLS could have very much won a playoff rematch with Serra and again, no SBG for Serra….

In 2023 DLS lost 28-0 to Serra, but was playing significantly better at the end of they year…. They could have also knocked Serra out of the playoffs as well….

I agree it would be an amazing league with DLS in it, but not sure it would be anymore competitive then what we are currently seeing in the NCS….
Well, I’ll say this; No way they get that 151 game win streak if they had been playing in the WCAL all that time
 
Well, I’ll say this; No way they get that 151 game win streak if they had been playing in the WCAL all that time
Maybe, Maybe not, don’t know about what the WCAL teams looked like back then, I know the Bells were the Powerhouse….

Probably though, with a Tougher league and Playoffs it would have been difficult….
 
Maybe, Maybe not, don’t know about what the WCAL teams looked like back then, I know the Bells were the Powerhouse….

Probably though, with a Tougher league and Playoffs it would have been difficult….
St Francis was pretty tough back then too. I think they even had a win over DLS sometime in the 90’s maybe? Before the streak, but just before. My memory is fading
 
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So... you're conceding that the SJS isn't up to snuff? Is this now the latest excuse for hiding teams in D2?

The Open Divisions fail to uphold the "elite showcase"? Based on whose standards?

You're really grasping at straws now.
The SJS doesn’t have a private school problem—the NCS and CCS do!

Private schools dominate Division 1, so they’ve created an 'Open Bracket' within the larger Division 1 playoffs. This setup ensures two teams from the division—often guaranteeing at least one public school in the NCS—can win a section championship and compete in the NorCal and/or state championship. It’s not a true Open Division but rather a workaround to balance the dominance of private schools with opportunities for public schools.
 
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You can't expect the WCAL to accept a team for their best sport only, only Sacred Heart Prep is allowed to do that 🤣
Sacred Heart Prep is not a part of the WCAL in football or any other sport. However Sacred Heart Cathedral is a member of the WCAL in every sport.

Post Note: I see there may be exceptions where SHP is allowed in WCAL in sports that SHC does not have a team. Water Polo was an example of this occurring.
 
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The SJS doesn’t have a private school problem—the NCS and CCS do!

Private schools dominate Division 1, so they’ve created an 'Open Bracket' within the larger Division 1 playoffs. This setup ensures two teams from the division—often guaranteeing at least one public school in the NCS—can win a section championship and compete in the NorCal and/or state championship. It’s not a true Open Division but rather a workaround to balance the dominance of private schools with opportunities for public schools.
The "private school situation", as you pointed out, is not as big a factor in the SJS. There are basically 3 top-level private schools, Jesuit, St. Mary's, and Central Catholic, and all have had success over the years. The problem in football is Folsom and Div. 1. Since the section bases divisions on enrollment there has been no one recently capable of competing with Folsom, certainly not this year. Schools like
St. Mary's and Central Catholic with non-Div. 1 enrollments get "rewarded" for winning at lower levels by being moved up to Div. 1, although that is not especially permanent (St. Mary's was back in Div. 2 this year), but large schools like Oak Ridge and Inderkum and Turlock have no chance to move down. Should there be a "De La Salle" accommodation applied to Folsom so that other Div. 1 schools have a chance at a section championship? Well, Folsom has been good of late but not even remotely as dominant over a long period of time as DLS and there is no guarantee they will continue to be good. At least there is not the Trinity League to deal with up here, where every team in the league is probably better than any NorCal team and the top two are untouchable.
 
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I hope not. The CCS used to have a pretty good setup with their open. Then, they went to the losers move on situation, and the NCS has now too. There is a definite need to adjust the SJS playoff format, but going to an open with losers move on format isn't one of them.

With all of that said, the entire CIF playoff structure for football needs an overhaul, IMO.
 
The SJS doesn’t have a private school problem—the NCS and CCS do!

Private schools dominate Division 1, so they’ve created an 'Open Bracket' within the larger Division 1 playoffs. This setup ensures two teams from the division—often guaranteeing at least one public school in the NCS—can win a section championship and compete in the NorCal and/or state championship. It’s not a true Open Division but rather a workaround to balance the dominance of private schools with opportunities for public schools.
Explain for the class how this is different with Folsom in SJS D-1.

Yes, the CCS does move many mid-level/good teams (not necessarily public) away from the powerhouses, but public schools still do compete in the Open and D-I.

The SJS has moved its good teams out of D-1 away from Folsom. No matter how you try to spin it, this is the truth.
 
Explain for the class how this is different with Folsom in SJS D-1.

Yes, the CCS does move many mid-level/good teams (not necessarily public) away from the powerhouses, but public schools still do compete in the Open and D-I.

The SJS has moved its good teams out of D-1 away from Folsom. No matter how you try to spin it, this is the truth.
The difference is that DLS has won 32 consecutive NCS championships. Folsom has won four consecutive SJS championships.

Which section are you from? Which section did you play or coach in?
 
The difference is that DLS has won 32 consecutive NCS championships. Folsom has won four consecutive SJS championships.

Which section are you from? Which section did you play or coach in?
Folsom has won like 11 of the last 13 SJS D1 titles though and I don’t think there have been too many close games…. So they are pretty dominant…. 🤣
 
The difference is that DLS has won 32 consecutive NCS championships. Folsom has won four consecutive SJS championships.

Which section are you from? Which section did you play or coach in?
As my avatar might suggest, Salinas High in the CCS.

As far as the Folsom situation, there really is no end in sight. They've changed coaches, but they're still pretty dominant. Much like with DLS the last few years, teams from other sections have beaten Folsom, but no one in the SJS. On top of that, the Bulldogs clobbered the top SJS competition far worse than DLS did in the NCS.

If Folsom isn't really considered at the level of a DLS, why did they eliminate the D-1 champion rule?

Again, spin all you want, but everyone sees what's happening.
 
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Explain for the class how this is different with Folsom in SJS D-1.

Yes, the CCS does move many mid-level/good teams (not necessarily public) away from the powerhouses, but public schools still do compete in the Open and D-I.

The SJS has moved its good teams out of D-1 away from Folsom. No matter how you try to spin it, this is the truth.
The SJS section bases their divisions on enrollment so they haven't moved good teams away from Folsom. In fact, good teams who win repeatedly at lower levels get moved up. Central Catholic has only 397 students and they are Div. I this year. St. Mary's with less than 1,000 was Div. I for a few years and is back to Div. II. Some schools that have shown success over the years are placed in a higher division than they would be just by their enrollment figures. Div. II was more competitive this year in comparison to Div. I only because Folsom is so much better than anyone in the section. Oak Ridge in Div. I was at worst the 2nd or 3rd best team in the section, with Grant, and they were totally smoked by Folsom twice. Other good schools in Div. I met or would meet the same fate. Excluding Folsom, the top teams in Div. I and II would make a good playoff.
 
The SJS section bases their divisions on enrollment so they haven't moved good teams away from Folsom. In fact, good teams who win repeatedly at lower levels get moved up. Central Catholic has only 397 students and they are Div. I this year. St. Mary's with less than 1,000 was Div. I for a few years and is back to Div. II. Some schools that have shown success over the years are placed in a higher division than they would be just by their enrollment figures. Div. II was more competitive this year in comparison to Div. I only because Folsom is so much better than anyone in the section. Oak Ridge in Div. I was at worst the 2nd or 3rd best team in the section, with Grant, and they were totally smoked by Folsom twice. Other good schools in Div. I met or would meet the same fate. Excluding Folsom, the top teams in Div. I and II would make a good playoff.
If there is one thing that seems universal in the high school football world, it's that local people don't think that outside people know what happens in their region.

Yes, St. Mary's was in D-1. Why were they in D-1? They were in D-1 because the SJS had a rule where traditional D-1 league champions were moved up to D-1, even if their enrollment put them elsewhere. The rule also stipulated that D-1 teams could not drop down below D-2.

A couple of years ago, this rule went away.

Why did it go away?

Central Catholic won exactly one title in D-2, but were immediately moved up to D-1, where they've stayed. Yet, other teams like St. Mary's, Rocklin, and Manteca have all won in D-2, but have not been forced up.

Why is that?

For whatever reason, you guys don't think we know the answers.

Here, we do.
 
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As my avatar might suggest, Salinas High in the CCS.

As far as the Folsom situation, there really is no end in sight. They've changed coaches, but they're still pretty dominant. Much like with DLS the last few years, teams from other sections have beaten Folsom, but no one in the SJS. On top of that, the Bulldogs clobbered the top SJS competition far worse than DLS did in the NCS.

If Folsom isn't really considered at the level of a DLS, why did they eliminate the D-1 champion rule?

Again, spin all you want, but everyone sees what's happening.
I should have known! That horse munching on lettuce was a dead giveaway! Go Cowboys! lol

Folsom is an elite NorCal team! Let them keep winning!

Maybe things will change. Maybe one day, Folsom’s second and third stringers wake up and say, ‘Why am I sitting on this bench when I could be starting somewhere else?’ I mean, Cool Hand transferred, won State and two section championships, and here I am, stuck on the sidelines like a Folsom Lake reflection. Meanwhile, ‘Oak Ridge is less than 8 miles away, and they’re sending kids to Alabama!’

Or maybe Sac and Elk Grove kids finally get tired of that long commute and boring, predictable schedule. Let’s be real—gas is expensive! And by the way, Grant runs the spread too, with NFL players coaching and donating to their program. Plus, their Friday Night Lights? Straight fire. They’ve got kids at USC, Oregon, and Tennessee!

Maybe one of those EGUSD schools finally realizes there’s a goldmine of talent in Elk Grove and opens their enrollment like, ‘Come on in, talent—we’ve got room!’ Or maybe the Troy Taylor magic wears off, and teams start saying, ‘We’re not scared of Folsom anymore!’ Maybe RB1 thinks, ‘You know what? Larry Bird’s little cousin has a point—I should go run behind Oak Ridge’s legendary O-line.’ Casey Taylor loves running the ball, and hey, maybe I could be the next Austin Collie or Bryce Pratt aka Folsom Killer. Hmmmmm.

Or what if 12 Bridges becomes the new Nevada Union? What if Destiny Christian Academy turns into the DLS of the SJS? Or Jesuit and St. Mary’s team up and decide, ‘We’re ready to be NorCal’s version of Mater Dei and Bosco!’ Heck, maybe two of Folsom’s up-and-coming coaches take jobs elsewhere, and half the roster follows them like, ‘Coach, we’re with you!’

But here’s the thing—Folsom hasn’t dominated the section for 32 consecutive years like DLS did in the NCS. At some point, other programs will catch up or emerge. No one saw Folsom becoming this dominant back in 2006, and definitely not in 1996 or 1986. The SJS has seen schools go on some great runs—Cordova, Grant, Nevada Union, Del Oro, Central Catholic—and Folsom’s is one of the most impressive.

Until then, cheers to Folsom. Y’all keep doing what you do—winning everything and keeping everyone else sweating bullets.
 
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