Maybe it is not that relevant for tonight, but any word on the rumors of CN or MC's division changes to D4
Division Changes
- Thread starter beatenpath2
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I don't know about Cardinal Newman, but this article confirms Marin Catholic will be Division IV this year.
http://www.marinij.com/sports/20150...es-to-41-7-win-hands-san-marin-its-first-loss
They are BOTH D4 schools. Why is it a bunch of crap???? CN did lose to D3 Campo last year 56-14 in the D3 sections....do you remember that? Now that there is a D4 state championship game, CN and MC are RIGHT where they should be playing in their proper divisions (they don't have to petition up to get a shot at a state championship anymore)..... EVERY division has their bullies.
and by the way.......I said they both were going D4 a month ago on another thread...and no one believed me.
DONT EVER DOUBT THE GURU ;-)
and by the way.......I said they both were going D4 a month ago on another thread...and no one believed me.
DONT EVER DOUBT THE GURU ;-)
One of them very well might win NCS Div. 4, but at this point, barring an upset, I think they're likely destined to meet in the semis. Moreau is undefeated with 18+ point wins over the current Calpreps #2 & #5 Div. 4 teams and only MVAL games left (no Logan this year). I think they run the table and finish as the 1 seed, making Marin Catholic & CN likely the 2 and 3 seeds.
And I agree with northbaybbguru, it's not crap. Rather, hats off to them for stepping up and playing Div. 3 when that was the only way to qualify for state bowls. It's what Salesian should have done when they missed out on a chance to be considered for bowl games.
I don't think it's that nobody believed they were going back to Div. 4, but until you see it confirmed in an official way, it's just a rumor. The NCS page still shows them as Div. 3.
Your right it not crap, just the world we live in where every division has its strong private schools and the deck is stacked against the publics
Could someone on this board please clear this up and explain how this division thing works and when and how you can petition to move up or down in Divisions. I do not know all of the nuances associated with how this is done. Obviously enrollment I am sure plays a key role in it. Are the rules the same for every section? Are the rules the same for privates and publics? Pardon my ignorance on this subject. "Crap" was probably a word I should not have used on a high school football web site. Looking back I wish I had worded it differently. I am hopeful to learn that the process was and needs to be started prior to the season beginning. Thanks
NCS sets the division levels based on enrollment for each sport. Here's the latest for football:
http://cifncs.org/sports/football/files/15FBDivisions.pdf
Notice that it was last updated on 8/17/15. Teams have the ability to petition up (you can't petition down) for a variety of reasons. For football, the way the old bowl system was set up, teams from Division IV were unlikely to be selected for a bowl game because they were in the same pool of candidates as most Division III schools. The new rules have every section champion from every section going to a postseason game, so there is one less reason to petition up. So schools like Marin Catholic and Cardinal Newman simply had to notify NCS that they were not petitioning up this year.
The divisions are set by enrollment, which leads to a heated debate about whether public and private schools should be treated the same. From a historical perspective, NCS has steadfastly insisted that both need to be treated the same. In fact, this is why there is no longer a CAL (Catholic Athletic League), which had most of the east bay catholic schools in the same league (and is why there's a WCAL on the peninsula - ever wonder why there's no ECAL?).
This really does have a pretty interesting impact on the playoffs this year. I suspect that Division 4 is going to have some qualified teams stay home (for the first time in forever) and Division III could end up with a real chance of not even having a first round.
Reintroducing Marin Catholic and Cardinal Newman into Division IV gets interesting because they won't have played many of the other Division IV contenders, so head-to-head isn't possible. Without them, the playoff seeding is relatively easy because Moreau beat Piedmont and St. Mary's, and Piedmont beat Justin-Siena, so the only "wild card" is Fortuna. But it will be interesting to see how they seed things now with Marin Catholic and Cardinal Newman. They both have losses, but to teams much tougher than anybody Moreau or Fortuna have faced. My far too early projected seedings would be:
1 - Moreau
2 - Marin Catholic
3 - Cardinal Newman
4 - Fortuna
5 - Piedmont
6 - Justin-Siena
7 - St. Mary's
It would be most interesting to see them swap out Fortuna and CN, setting up a potential CN-Marin Catholic championship game, but I kind of doubt that happens.
For Division III, Campo, Rancho Cotate and Analy become the most likely top 3 seeds, and an underachieving Bishop O'Dowd becomes a candidate for the 4 seed (when they wouldn't crack the top 7 in Division IV). I wonder if Pinole Valley will also petition back into Division III rather than have to face Clayton Valley in the playoffs?
Reintroducing Marin Catholic and Cardinal Newman into Division IV gets interesting because they won't have played many of the other Division IV contenders, so head-to-head isn't possible. Without them, the playoff seeding is relatively easy because Moreau beat Piedmont and St. Mary's, and Piedmont beat Justin-Siena, so the only "wild card" is Fortuna. But it will be interesting to see how they seed things now with Marin Catholic and Cardinal Newman. They both have losses, but to teams much tougher than anybody Moreau or Fortuna have faced. My far too early projected seedings would be:
1 - Moreau
2 - Marin Catholic
3 - Cardinal Newman
4 - Fortuna
5 - Piedmont
6 - Justin-Siena
7 - St. Mary's
It would be most interesting to see them swap out Fortuna and CN, setting up a potential CN-Marin Catholic championship game, but I kind of doubt that happens.
For Division III, Campo, Rancho Cotate and Analy become the most likely top 3 seeds, and an underachieving Bishop O'Dowd becomes a candidate for the 4 seed (when they wouldn't crack the top 7 in Division IV). I wonder if Pinole Valley will also petition back into Division III rather than have to face Clayton Valley in the playoffs?
Except, in the case of CN and MC, they are running away from the best D3 school which is a public.
I wouldn't say MC and CN are running from any public D3 school. Since 2009 those two privates make up half of the D3 championships and MC has just two titles, just as many as Campo. It's all about the state a regional games, not the section. In NCS the last 10 years privates and charters make up 16% of the schools and are winning 62% of the titles.
The CIF created this with their 13 "championships". Way to many classes for football, 5 or 6 tops is what California should have. Other states are doing the same and it waters it down and makes a championship meaningless. Pennsylvania has kept an ideal number 4, but that's about it. Even Texas has 12 divisions, which is to many.
I would say they are running. They know if you don't win the section, you don't go to the regional.
Still waiting for NCS schools to figure out how publics dominate the SJS, CS, NS, SS, and SDS. The answers are there.
Still waiting for NCS schools to figure out how publics dominate the SJS, CS, NS, SS, and SDS. The answers are there.
Noknight...
Fortuna has a game vs Del Norte coming up. CN played Del Norte the 1st game of the year (CN won 62-19). So common opponent for the seedings come into play.
Kudos to your honesty. And thank you Nocnight for explaining it to us. I was hopeful it was done prior to the season starting for obvious reasons.
Actually, Fortuna and Del Norte will play two times this season. The Redwood Empire schools do tend to get some favorable seedings, but I'd still be surprised if they managed to finish higher than a 4 seed even if they run the table.
It's possible, but I don't think anybody could be certain. If Moreau, Marin Catholic and CN all run the table, Moreau would be the only one who's undefeated and will have a better win (Piedmont) than either of the other two. The only reason the committee would rank Marin Catholic or CN above Moreau would be reputation, and they always make a big deal about saying that it's only based on this year. So provided all 3 teams don't lose the rest of the way, I don't see how the committee ranks either Marin Catholic or CN above Moreau.
If MC and CN had the same preseason schedule as Moreau they would all be 4-0
too. MC and CN will handle Piedmont come playoff time......this is why I hate the move of CN and MC to D4 if Moreau get rewarded for a weak Preseason schedule than why should MC and and CN schedule up? That takes out a lot of the fun, the SOS isn't even close
Has anybody seen Moreau play? This is a school with very little success in football. They've come on the scene strong in hoops the last 4 years but you don't hear much in any other sports. Just curious if they are any good or is it just a really bad schedule?
Agree to disagree on this one. Is there even private schools in the NS or CS to dominate? I can't name one. SJS is a huge section but are there even relevant teams besides St. Mary's and Jesuit? And I'm being kind including Jesuit they are an ok team in a good league. C. Catholic owns their division there. The SJS does put out the best public school product in Nor Cal if not the state. SS is a split with a few big time public schools and the PAC-5 amongst others. Running would be what Miramonte did 2 years ago after losing early games to Campo and MC and petitioning up to D2 almost mid season. In 4 of the 5 NCS divisions private or charter schools are near locks to win. I'm not trying to huff and puff here but there is a major advantage for these schools and it's reflected in section titles. MC and CN would be smart to play in D4 if there ultimate goal was to go to a regional or state game. Why play a higher division and get the shaft like SHP in the CCS did last year?
No night - The reason MC and CN would be ranked ahead of Moreau if they were undefeated is strength of schedule not reputation. It happens ALL the time in every sport in the NCS. There is no way the committee will have MC and CN play prior to section finals.
D3
With Marin Catholic and Cardinal Newman going D4, this puts D3 up for grabs. Campo is the defending champs, but they are not nearly the same team as last year. O'Dowd will be a dark horse to watch and will be dangerous late in the season with more experience and talent. Analy not as good as last year with soft schedule, but run a solid system and should not be overlooked. Rancho is questionable until they show they can play with or beat a top tier team this year.
D4
Marin & Newman will be top seeds, followed by the pack. Power Rankings and strength of schedule will put Moreau a certain 3rd seed given the top three win out. Moreau's win over Piedmont helps them get the number three seed, without that, they can be undefeated but end up 6th due to schedule strength. Piedmont & St. Mary's should be 4-5 in either order. Marin and Newman should be the 1-2 hands down. Justin & San Marin will fight to be the 6th seed. Fortuna's plays one fairly tough team. With a St. Mary's win over O'Dowd & the two new D3 teams down, D4 is looking much stronger.
TMJA..... how does Moreau go undefeated and end up 6 behind St Marys and Piedmont battling 4-5 as Moreau beat both.
Also if Moreau runs table I think they deserve 1 seed. It is crap that Marin and CN declare D4 now, 4 weeks into season. That is on NCS rules, should require you to claim division prior to season. Moreau should not be penalized for late decision policy. They scheduled two top D4 schools, not their fault Marin and CN weren't D4 schools. also we will see how Justin-Sienna does this week vs Marin Catholic, Piedmont beat JS by 14 and was destroyed by 50 to Moreau, anything less than a marin cath blowout should warrant #1 seed for Moreau
Also if Moreau runs table I think they deserve 1 seed. It is crap that Marin and CN declare D4 now, 4 weeks into season. That is on NCS rules, should require you to claim division prior to season. Moreau should not be penalized for late decision policy. They scheduled two top D4 schools, not their fault Marin and CN weren't D4 schools. also we will see how Justin-Sienna does this week vs Marin Catholic, Piedmont beat JS by 14 and was destroyed by 50 to Moreau, anything less than a marin cath blowout should warrant #1 seed for Moreau
Competitive scores don't play into seeding. Results (won or lost does). I really doubt Mazi is telling his guys, "we gotta win by 65 this week."
Doesn't really matter in the end. I see either MC or CN crushing Moreau by 3-4 TD's no matter where seeded.
Doesn't really matter in the end. I see either MC or CN crushing Moreau by 3-4 TD's no matter where seeded.
And if I had wings, I could fly.
Let's face it - both Marin Catholic and Cardinal Newman built their schedules for the old system, where winning a section title was only half the battle. They also needed to impress a selection committee in order to be picked for the state games. Now they're moving back to Division IV, and a selection committee is no longer involved. You can spin it about challenging themselves, but in reality it was to impress a state selection committee. Now that might bite them in the end, though all that will likely happen is that they'll have to play each other in the semis rather than the finals, so it's not really a travesty or anything.
As for the strength of schedule argument, that only works if you actually win one of those tough games. Looking at their schedules, St. Mary's best win will likely be St. Ignatius (0-3 St. Ignatius, by the way) or a Justin-Siena team that will have also lost to Piedmont. Cardinal Newman's best win, presuming they win out, will be Rancho Cotate. I guess by the thinking of some on here, if Moreau had gone and gotten their brains bashed in by De La Salle, that would make them the clear top seed.
In the end, it will all work out. Plus, it's entirely possible that an upset happens, or that Moreau ends up reading and believing their hype and drops a game, making this conversation moot. But I will be shocked if a 10-0 Moreau doesn't get the top seed based on, yes, the strength of their wins over any wins Marin Catholic or Cardinal Newman will have at the end. They will be playing nothing but Division I, II and III schools the rest of the way out, which the committee has previously has taken into account.
-The fact that you cant name private schools in those sections is my point. The publics dominate.
-In the SS last year, publics won 12 of the 13 section titles.
I'd hope the committee would have a little more common sense than comparative scores. Anyone with a 1/4 brain of football knowledge knows games are about match ups and daisy chains mean absolutely nothing and can be manipulated and proven to be wrong
Bottom line on this subject is this. Both Newman and MC know that D 4 is a much easier road to the regional game than D 3. They have witnessed another private because of enrollment, Central Catholic play up for the regular season and section then play down and be eligible for a lower division Bowl run. 3 in a row I believe. I do believe the difference however is that CC had to play D3 in the sections and then got small school bowl bids. Correct me if I am wrong
Not sure if D4 will be any easier. Top 3 teams in D3 were Campo CN and MC. Now they top three teams in D4 are MC, CN and now arguably Moreau. The other D3 teams like Analy, Odowd, El Cerritto are not any better than chasers in D4 like St Marys, Piedmont, Justin Siena. All CN and MC did was make it possibly an easier game vs So Cal D4 instead of D3. They eliminated having to play Campo who I am not sure is as good this year. D4 is now better than D3
Farmair, if it makes you feel any better Central Catholic has to move up to DIII this year in the SJS since they have won DIV three times. Not sure how that translates to State Bowl games though. It used to be if a DIII team's enrollment was under 500 they could go DIV for the SBG. Central's enrollment bounces around 400 and most of the time is sub 400
Central Catholic and Newman use to have some great battles. I want to say it was pretty even series. I would love to see these teams square off again. They have one common opponent this year (St Mary's of Stockton) and CC won by 2 Td's and Newman lost by 1. I think both MC and Newman could hold there own against CC. MC is going to crush Justin Siena. They have one loss to a very good Consumnes Oaks team week 1.
I do believe they weakened the D3 bracket, however I think that the teams you listed: O Dowd, EC, and Analy would beat the middle teams for D4 like JS, SM and Piedmont. Besides, RC would run any of those D4 teams for sure other than the top 3. On top of all that I think RC will lose to CN but I do believe that RC would have beat MC this year because of their losses on D
HSfan82....
I stated that Moreau deserved the 3rd seed as long as CN & MC end up running the table due to strength of schedule. That is just my opinion. My reference to the 6th seed was hypothetical. If Moreau loses to any of the teams remaining on their schedule, it would be a bad loss and would possibly drop them that low. If you look at past seedings it is all about strength of schedule given no one has a bad loss to an inferior team. I agree that Moreau has a solid club and it will be exciting to see the post season with the two nice additions to D4 in the playoff mix. The questions by the seeding committee will be as follows 1- Strength of Schedule 2- Head to Head 3- Common Opponent. CN & MC are down because the CIF changed the qualifications for state. I think it gives D4 way more respect and legitimacy. St. Mary's beat O'Dowd which strengthens D4 even more. D4 should be very exciting this year.
D4 St Marys beat D3 Odowd last week. Piedmont beat Salesian a team equal to a EC. Dont know much about Analy
good points... If Moreau loses they definetly drop to 3 maybe even 4, but by virtue of beating Piedmont and St Marys, and Piedmont beating JS, they stay in front of all those teams. San Marin could pass them if they beat JS. D4 will be excitng and IMO better than D3
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We won't know about Analy till playoffs they don't play anyone with a pulse till then
We won't know about Analy till playoffs they don't play anyone with a pulse till then
