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Granite Bay 3 Rocklin 2 - Pitcher Over Use???

Jul 2, 2013
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Granite Bay comes back from a 2-0 deficit to beat Rocklin 3-2 in 9 innings. GB take the season series 2-1. Rocklin wins the league and is the #1 seed from the SFL while Granite Bay is the #3 seed......but that's not the story. The story is about a coach pitching a kid 100 pitches on Monday then bringing him into a meaningless game to throw 33 pitches 2 days later! How much control should a parent have in that decision (if it's my kid I pull him off the field)? The kid in question has a D1 scholarship and based on his performance Monday has a lot of interest from MLB teams for the draft next month. In addition to the pitch count outlined above he threw 30-50 pitches in the bullpen to warm up 2 days after throwing 100 pitches.

I don't normally post on this board but you have to wonder if a coaches pride to loose a meaningless game (they had already won the league) affects his decisions and how much should the administration of the school step into these situations? Is this the parents, administration or coaches decision????
 
The kid should be taught to speak for himself and his own protection.

IMO, it's not a school administration issue.
 
Agree with that. When the kids are 17/18 years old they need to have the ability to communicate with the coach, but we all know if a kid is a competitor (which from everything I've seen he is) it will be difficult to tell the coach NO. Personally, I put the blame solely on the coach. There is no explanation possible that could justify what he did. Even if a kid says his arm feels good, what are the short/long term affects? I know the pro scouts I talk to cringe at some of the stuff they see at the HS level with over use of the top pitchers. We chastise travel / little league coaches for doing this same thing at lower levels but don't seem to hold the HS Coaches accountable.
 
Ultimately I would say it's a parents/players and coach issue. No way should or could the school administration get involved.

Isn't it 10 innings in a week still? So in theory the coach didn't do anything against the rules. Now common sense may be another issue. Maybe the CIF needs to look towards a pitch count per week instead of IP's as that is a better indicator of strain/over use?
 
About 10 years ago I was coaching our younger son's team in the old Aldrete Labor Day Tournament. We were playing another team from the South Bay we'd played before...so I knew some of the coaches, parents and kids on the team. We ended up in a 9 inning (or so) game. The other team threw the same 10/11-year old the whole game....i think we counted something like 100 pitches +/- a few.

They beat us, maybe something like 3-2. Anyways, while we're shaking hands...probably a bad time...I quietly said something to the other coach like, 'Don't you think thats a bit much for a 10/11-year old?' Coach looked back a little angry and a little confused. But the kid's mom overheard it. Did she stick up for her son? Nope...just got real angry at me.

Sure, I should mind my own business. But with an older son who was being recruited for college at the time, I was kind of tuned into the whole overuse thing.

Getting no real satisfaction there, I called the Tournament Director and asked if there were any rules about innings - Nope. "Just used common sense." So I said something like, "Wouldn't you say this is a violation of common sense for a 10/11-year old?" What did I get back? Angry 'tough guy' response...from the freakin' tournament director.

So you see, you cannot expect adults to manage these situations. Not coaches (HS or otherwise), not administrators, not tournament directors. Gotta do it yourself.

When our younger son came through the HS/travel scene, I'd lay out instructions for him to relay to the coach. Out-of-season "travel" game just before tryouts? Instruction was: You can throw no more than 2 innings, no more than 40 pitches and you get 1 breaking pitch per inning. All the rest fastballs, learn how to locate it - thats better for you anyways. You choose where to use it.

Never had a problem doing it that way. Never had an argument with a coach about it either.

BTW, that kid who was VERY talented that threw 100 pitches or so in that game ended up being a decent HS player but never pitched there to my knowledge. I later heard that with his dad as a coach, he was pitched like a madman through LL and Pony league. What a shame. He was a stud as a youngster.

This post was edited on 5/8 12:06 PM by atcshrk
 
Reposted from the hsbaseballweb:


On Saturday, May 10th, there will be a one-hour special on the MLB Network, titled MLB Network Roundtable: The Pitching Dilemma,
airing at 4 p.m. EST and featuring a conversation between Bob Costas,
Jim Kaat, John Smoltz, Tom Verducci, Dr. David Altcheck, pitching expert
Tom House and Dr. James Andrews.


"The basic thing that
parents out there and coaches and players alike need to know is if you
throw with fatigue at a young age, you have a 36-to-1 chance of injuring
your shoulder or elbow," Dr. Andrews says during the special.


"What
we really found out is that [high school patients] only had one week
off each year from competitive baseball and that one week was ? you
could guess what ? between Christmas and New Year's. So they're playing
year-round baseball ? that's the number one risk factor in youth
baseball."
 
Beware of coaches at all levels, even your friends who are coaches that should know better. Their egos don't allow their brains to process things that are good for their pitchers when they're on a meaningless trophy hunt. In a way I was (my son) was lucky my son wasn't the hardest thrower on his travel teams, because most of them were used up by time they were sophs in HS. My guy lasted through college without any surgeries or major arm issues. Most the travel coaches didn't like me and my son didn't understand why I was the way I was until he got to college and most of his fellow travel ball pitchers didn't make it. I could go on for days with stories from 10 year old ball right through college, but most of you have heard them all. The bottom line for me was, if I didn't protect him at an early age, no one else was going to.
 
This is a great subject, and unfortunately one of the most complicated in a very complicated game.

Let me begin with one undeniable truth. Parental authority can be delegated, but not parental responsibility. IOW, a parent has the final say about certain things when it comes to their children. I know coaches don't like to admit that, but they aren't the ones sitting in the hospital room after surgery or paying the hospital bills! Unfortunately, for many reasons in sports, parents will not intercede even when they believe their child is in harm's way.

Next, everyone in Ca who really feels this subject is a serious one, should thank their lucky stars! The NFHS rules require each state assn develop some kind of pitching limitations. Some years back I compiled a pretty comprehensive list of all the limits from all the states. See link.

To say the least, Ca has the most strict limits in the nation! Even if you only scan through that list, you'll see that some other states have nothing more than jokes for limits. See Louisiana and Texas for proof.

Unfortunately, pitch limits by innings is pretty stupid when you look at it closely. Why? Because an inning can be of any length from 3 pitches to literally 300. Sadly though, only North Dakota and Vermont to my knowledge have gone away from inning limits and gone to pitch count limits. Why? Because there's so much opposition to pitch counts, both unreasonable and reasonable.

Its patently unreasonable to fight to keep inning limits when an inning can vary so greatly. Pitch count limits are not all perfect, but they are far superior to inning limits. Its unfortunate, but the truth is, no limitation is gonna work equally well for every pitcher, and therein lies the main problem with pitch count limits.

If a coach pushes the envelope, no matter what the limitations, a lot of pitchers are gonna be injured. But the only way to really mitigate that is sadly beyond the control of most coaches. The mitigation that would work the best, is to have more than 1 or 2 good pitchers to carry the load. But not many HS coaches have the ability to really develop pitchers. They don't generally have the time or knowledge it takes to do that.

One of the best arguments against pitch counts is that not all pitches are equal, but they're counted equally. I'm not talking about the argument against breaking pitches. That's a separate topic all of its own. I'm talking about pressure. In recent years there's been more and more talk about the pressure of a pitch. By pressure I mean mental pressure. Here's an example. There's a lot less pressure on a pitcher who's throwing a pitch in the top of the last inning with 2 outs and a 9 run lead, and a pitcher who's team is tied in the bottom of the last inning with the bases loaded, no outs, and the kid who's just been drafted in the 1st round because of his hitting.

So while the pitch is still only 1 pitch, it wears on the pitcher in different ways. Another example would be one pitcher having thrown 90 pitches in 6 innings with only a few base runners, and another pitcher having thrown 90 pitches in 4 innings, with almost every pitch being thrown with runners on.

I happen to be a nut on this stuff so I actually track it, along with lots of other stuff, so although I'm a staunch supporter of pitch count limitations as opposed to inning limitations, I can certainly understand how difficult it is to really put a value on each pitch.

In the end, it would be nice if there were some national authority looking into how to deal with this issue and govern it, but the truth is, there isn't. Because of that, we've all got to accept that bad things are gonna happen to pitchers, and hope coaches don't do things that make it worse.

http://www.infosports.com/scorekeeper/images/pitlimitsa.pdf
 
Splitty and shark have the right angle. I'd add in that developing a change, studying guys like Gr. Maddux/Glavine made my two very effective until mid-HS. I'm sure they goofed around a bit throwing breakers in practice when we weren't watching, but never in games as the goal was save arms, and stay in the lineup. No arm problems and position player value in HS was the result.

To gauge/study the variables in "psychological" effects of game situations on the biomechanics of throwing motion seems near impossible, but it adds an interesting twist. Mercyhurst University is running a current study on biomarkers for pitchers (which can be quantified so very objective- which is popular in the day and age of "Sports Science" TV) of which the results or lack thereof will be either game-changing or status quo (my guess.)

Perhaps the OP can confirm the assumption the D1 recruit has sound mechanical instruction, a self fulfilling prophecy, typically. Either Nolan Ryan is a pariah or saint regarding his stand on pitch counts. But how much core training and weight room specifics happen at the HS level? My guess; not enough.
 
stats4gnats, You're analysis/knowledge is way past my pay grade these days. All I had was my pitch counter, a weekly calendar, internet info on youth arm problems, and my son's best long term interests as tools for avoiding arm problems. I have no proof that these tools can help everyone, but I'll bet some old fashioned common sense could cut youth arm injuries in half.
 
One year I had a 12 year old kid at the Bronco level, he was also playing in a LL and on a travel team. His dad offered to help out with the team and I told him I know your kid is playing on 2 other teams so you let me know when he's available to pitch. We're playing out first game of the week on a weds and I ask how the kids doing. Dad tells me he's fresh hasn't pitched all week. In about the 4th inning he almost hits a kid with a pitch. The dad turns to me and says, yesterday he hit a kid, it was ugly. Some people can't help themselves.
 
mrsplitty, fortunately or unfortunately, you've seen firsthand some of the crazy stuff I track, but at the heart of it you're correct. Common sense can mitigate a lot of pitching injuries. Trouble is, common sense ain't all that common, and even when someone normally uses it, when it comes to their team or their kid, it usually flies out the window.

The method I use to show stress isn't by any means foolproof, but it can make sure anyone who looks, some reality. Trouble is, even though what I use to make those judgments is pretty much indisputable and easy to understand, the large percentage of folks don't even want consider it. I don't know if that's because they're just lazy, don't like to admit they might not be right in the way feel about the issue, or just expressing the normal human opposition to change. IOW, there are a lot of people who don't want to think about things they don't think about. ROFL!
 
Roc Murray!

I've done a few of Coach Roc Murray's (Rocklin) games and he should know better. Seems like he got a BIT defensive when some news reporter brought the subject up. Sad...the Pitcher Webb has to go through that for the coaches ego.
 
Re: Roc Murray!


Two suggestions I can make:

Umpires should begin calling the strike zone as it was originally intended (at all levels) and at the youth level (say up to 12 years old) the strike zone should be expanded a little bit. More kids will swing the bat and there will be fewer pitches (and, dare I say, more excitement in each game). More kids should be playing multiple sports at an early age and should still play at least two sports in high school. I know that this will result in many travel ball coaches taking a cut in pay, but it isn't about the coaches.

I live in Los Gatos and I hear from many travel ball parents about how their family is traveling "this week to Location X and next week to Location Z, etc, etc". And then I hear how they have decided to focus on one sport "to give Johnny the best shot for a college scholarship". When I mention to them that Los Gatos High School is over 100 years old and only two former players have made it to the big leagues the parent will typically say "you don't know what you're talking about" or "my kid is different". BTW, the two that I have made it are Mike Couchee ('76 LG grad, later pitched at USC and spent parts of two seasons pitching for the Padres and has coached for several clubs in the minor leagues for many years) and Logan Schafer ('04 LG grad played at Cuesta College, Cal Poly and is now a reserve outfielder for the Brewers). Guess what? Both of these guys played multiple sports in high school (Couchee - football, basketball, baseball; Schafer - soccer and baseball).

There are three other LG kids that are currently in the minor leagues (Carlos Alonso, Kyle Blair and Joey Donofrio). Alonso (AA in Phillies organization) played football and baseball and wrestled for two years, Blair (currently Indy ball) played water polo and baseball, and Donofrio (AA in Cardinals organization) played football and baseball.

I look at guys like Tulowitzki (2 sports), Ken Caminiti (3 sports), Carney Lansford (3 sports), Mark Langston (two sports), Scott Erickson (three sports), and wonder why the big rush to limit any kid to only one sport. Even many of the football guys (Trent Edwards, Kiko Alonso, Tom Brady, Steve Bartkowski, Jim Harbaugh, Jim Plunkett, Dan Pastorini, etc) played multiple sports in high school. Sorry for the rant...
 
Re: Roc Murray!


Here is another suggestion. If you run across a parent that believes that focusing on baseball "to give Johnny a better chance to earn a scholarship", give that parent a reality check. There are 11.7 scholarships total to be awarded in a D1 college program. Teams carry more pitchers than scholarships available. Play baseball because you love the game. Playing to earn a scholarship is a fools errand.

That being said, travel baseball can be a very fun experience for the player and the families but do it for the right reason. I have had two boys play both local and travel baseball and they have had a great experience in both. My boys compete because they have a love for the game and maybe just maybe they will get some attention from a college they would like to attend.

Sorry another suggestion. Have kids play as many sports as they would like to in high school. It will be last time they will be able to play multiple sports. Kids have only four years to experience the most fun they will have at any level. Talk to anyone who has played in college or professionally and nothing compares to the enjoyment of playing with your school's name across your chest.
 
Re: Roc Murray!


Originally posted by BKWRDKUROUT:
I've done a few of Coach Roc Murray's (Rocklin) games and he should know better. Seems like he got a BIT defensive when some news reporter brought the subject up. Sad...the Pitcher Webb has to go through that for the coaches ego.
Where did he get defensive about the subject? Not questioning it, but he had a quote in the Sacramento Bee this week talking about taking out Logan early against Oak Ridge to protect his arm. Has he changed course?
 
Re: Roc Murray!

Right after the game he was asked about ------> his/him pitching a kid 100 pitches on Monday then bringing him into a meaningless game to throw 33 pitches 2 days later.

And I was told Roc seemed "taken aback" by the line of questioning ...
 
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