IMG vs. Mater Dei: Great Athletes, Bad for HS Football

[ararar]

Why do people complain about these kids and their parents? Just stay at your local HS and watch that and cheer for whatever they do.Why the vitriol toward people who choose a different path? Nobody is telling the people who want the status quo they are ruining anything by their choices.Please explain what and how they are affecting your HS football experience

 

[Califfbfan]

Hopefully al the power states in high school football will follow California's lead and stop scheduling IMG. That way, IMG will have no one good to play and maybe they will just go away in football.

 

[Hatchball]

Why do people complain about these kids and their parents? Just stay at your local HS and watch that and cheer for whatever they do.Why the vitriol toward people who choose a different path? Nobody is telling the people who want the status quo they are ruining anything by their choices.Please explain what and how they are affecting your HS football experience

It's ruining the quality of play when the best players leave, and it's a dagger when it's someone from the high school you support/attend(ed). I'm sure Cathedral students and alumni would have loved to watch Bryce Young this season and next under center. Rancho Cucamonga must be thrilled to be 1-4 after Sean Dollars transferred to Mater Dei. This will be part of the slow bleeding decline of high school football.

 

[ThunderRam]

Come on Thunder, the all Americans game is absolutely nothing like what we witnessed this Friday with MD and IMG.Read the last three paragraphs of my post above and you will realize what a special event that game was.

I read it. I disagree. Completely. You love the transfer train & one dynamic, special match up every 10 years w/ hundreds of boat races in between. I don't. There are greater tragedies in life.

 

[SpeedCity51]

It's ruining the quality of play when the best players leave, and it's a dagger when it's someone from the high school you support/attend(ed). I'm sure Cathedral students and alumni would have loved to watch Bryce Young this season and next under center. Rancho Cucamonga must be thrilled to be 1-4 after Sean Dollars transferred to Mater Dei. This will be part of the slow bleeding decline of high school football.

So you think players should stay because alumni and students will be mad if they leave?

 

[Hatchball]

So you think players should stay because alumni and students will be mad if they leave?

I never said they should stay, they can go where they want. I'm just saying why it's bad for high school football.

 

[ThunderRam]

I don’t know what the transfer activity around band programs is, and I would guess there isn’t much data about it because people don’t care, and I am definitely one of those people that don’t.

Which is yet another reason why the examples are so different. But you brought it up.

I also do not care about people transferring for sports. I don’t understand the argument for restricting transfers to be perfectly honest with you. But as you said, to each their own.

Other than not understanding or aligning with the front runner mentality (IMO people are afraid to compete on a level playing field & would rather ride the train of the sure thing) -- I don't care either.

If kids/parents are choosing schools due to environment, academics, fit, etc. I'm good with it. I've said many times that as long as the school has room and other potential local students aren't being bumped, I support choosing the best situation for the individual.

What I don't like are the athletically motivated transfers and egregious recruiting to build dominant, unbeatable all-star teams. Our society has placed such an emphasis of winning at all costs and all the talk that goes on in social media has these kids fearing their status in their sport. "I have to be on a title team or else I won't be considered great". And parents are feeding their kids insecurity.

In pro sports, I don't mind athletes taking care of their bodies, eating healthy, building strength, using modern recovery techniques (e.g., cryotherapy), but I didn't like the use of HGH, steroids, and other over the top methods to gain an edge. I didn't care for the McGwire/Sosa/Bonds era of baseball even though lots of other fans didn't care about how they were doing it and just enjoyed seeing 60+ home run seasons and 500+ foot blasts. That BS just wasn't for me.

While the recruiting and stockpiling of talent Mater Dei, IMG, Bishop Gorman, Aquinas, Bosco, etc do isn't the same as players using banned substances, it's the same to me with regard to going far over the line in the pursuit of winning and personal/team success. You obviously have a different opinion and that's fine. But you will never convince me that it's good for HS sports. I don't even like what's going on in the NBA right now, but that's another discussion altogether.

Lastly, I admitted to watching the game on Friday night. So I didn't have zero interest. But my interest was more about seeing a SoCal heavy team against the biggest evil empire of them all in IMG. Outside of that, I'm with @larry legend33 in preferring watching our local kids here. It's more real -- and pure -- to me.

 

[ararar]

It's ruining the quality of play when the best players leave, and it's a dagger when it's someone from the high school you support/attend(ed). I'm sure Cathedral students and alumni would have loved to watch Bryce Young this season and next under center. Rancho Cucamonga must be thrilled to be 1-4 after Sean Dollars transferred to Mater Dei. This will be part of the slow bleeding decline of high school football.

Quality of play? I thought this was about neighborhood kids playing together and representing their community to the best of their ability regardless of who’s on the field.Its sounds strangely that that’s not the case at all but more about how good your team could be.In which case you’re no different than the teams you complain about.
I have been to many Los Angeles city section low division games.Its some of the worst football you’ll ever see but 20,000 show up for the East L A classic because nobody cares about the quality of play just who those kids are representing.
No ,I suspect this is complaining about winning or losing

 

[Hatchball]

Quality of play? I thought this was about neighborhood kids playing together and representing their community to the best of their ability regardless of who’s on the field.Its sounds strangely that that’s not the case at all but more about how good your team could be.In which case you’re no different than the teams you complain about.
I have been to many Los Angeles city section low division games.Its some of the worst football you’ll ever see but 20,000 show up for the East L A classic because nobody cares about the quality of play just who those kids are representing.
No ,I suspect this is complaining about winning or losing

"neighborhood kids, except the best kids from the neighborhood, playing together" fixed. Like you said it's about neighborhood kids playing together and representing the community, until the best player you've been playing with since Pop Warner decides to bail on the neighborhood. Sean Dollars can still be with Rancho Cucamonga and they'd probably still be 1-4, but he'd be the kid you grew up with playing for your team that the Rancho Cucamonga community would know and support. They'd still turn out for the game, but it would be nice to have a special player to watch, win or lose.

 

[Sacchiefs]

Pretty good discussion so far with some Pretty passionate responses on the topic. Are we going with our head or hearts on the topic? or both? Paying it forward on the good advice I got from slick58. Look I understand the transfer impacts the home school of the student athlete but it's happened for so long now I would assume most would be somewhat used to it. Ross at cc should be at grant, no complaint from me. The Reno express should be at probably Reed, no complaint from me. The 5 star lb at DLS should be at Burbank. Again no complaint from me. Fellas how many more examples can you all think of? Are some of you disintereated in watching those teams play too because each school has a less than stellar record because a top recruit left for better pastures? My only concern with transfers is how the cif handles them. Feels like honesty is being punished while lying is encouraged.

 

[SpeedCity51]

"neighborhood kids, except the best kids from the neighborhood, playing together" fixed. Like you said it's about neighborhood kids playing together and representing the community, until the best player you've been playing with since Pop Warner decides to bail on the neighborhood. Sean Dollars can still be with Rancho Cucamonga and they'd probably still be 1-4, but he'd be the kid you grew up with playing for your team that the Rancho Cucamonga community would know and support. They'd still turn out for the game, but it would be nice to have a special player to watch, win or lose.

I’m sure Sean Dollars feels it would be nice to be able to do what’s best for him without a bunch of people ripping him because he decided to go to a different school. Ultimately I think a person doing what they feel is best for themselves and their family trumps a fan’s desire to watch a kid play football in a particular uniform for another year or two.

 

[Hatchball]

I have no issue with a player going where he wants if he feels it's for the best, but the OP topic was "is it bad for high school football". Free agents in the NBA can go to the Warriors, baseball players can go to the Yankees and Dodgers, but is it bad for their respective sports? I would argue yes.

 

[SpeedCity51]

I have no issue with a player going where he wants if he feels it's for the best, but the OP topic was "is it bad for high school football". Free agents in the NBA can go to the Warriors, baseball players can go to the Yankees and Dodgers, but is it bad for their respective sports? I would argue yes.

Not to nitpick, but the Dodgers have signed exactly one big time MLB free agent in the past decade. Sorry, as a Dodger fan that fake narrative is thrown out all the time and it’s very annoying lol.

 

[Hatchball]

Not to nitpick, but the Dodgers have signed exactly one big time MLB free agent in the past decade. Sorry, as a Dodger fan that fake narrative is thrown out all the time and it’s very annoying lol.

As a Giants fan I would say that trades count too because they're willing to take on the salary!

 

[Marcskit]

If DLS “hand picked” talent throughout the Bay Area year after year then they’d have had scores of D1 prospects every year. A lot of years they’ve had just 1?D1 prospect. When they were losing to Don Bosco of NJ I think one year they didn’t have any D1 prospects.Now of course they’ve gotten a lot kids from the surrounding areas, but doesn’t mean they were zeroing in on D1 prospects. The number of D1 kids they put out each year doesn’t support that claim

remc, please tell me your not going to play the poor me, tattered in rags card.
DLS, has had way more than it's share of talent. It only takes a couple of top level, key players to make a good team into a powerhouse. Great running back, great receiver, couple of defensive backs. Put that together with DLS coaching and system and you have dynasty.
Please don't play it small , it is not worthy of you.

Here's wishing you great football

 

[SpeedCity51]

As a Giants fan I would say that trades count too because they're willing to take on the salary!

Well I’m sure you will enjoy this upcoming fifth consecutive post-season implosion by the Dodgers. Round: TBD.

 

[remc]

remc, please tell me your not going to play the poor me, tattered in rags card.
DLS, has had way more than it's share of talent. It only takes a couple of top level, key players to make a good team into a powerhouse. Great running back, great receiver, couple of defensive backs. Put that together with DLS coaching and system and you have dynasty.
Please don't play it small , it is not worthy of you.

Here's wishing you great football

Not playing it small, but the comment I was responding to claimed DLS has been hand picking its players throughout the Bay Area for years. Judging from the number of D1 prospects they put out yearly, that’s a bit of an exaggeration. The numbers bear that out. More credit should go to the system and culture that Ladoeceur set up and their kids and coaches and admin bought into.And yes, I know they get players from all over the Area, but I think you’re purposely downplaying their system and hard work.I think you should google or research the number of D1 prospects they have produced per year for, say, the last 20 years. I think you might be surprised how few relative to the success they’ve had.

 

[observer22]

DLS may have had fewer D1 players than one might think given their success, but they’ve had a heck of a lot more D1 players than most of the public schools they play who use “neighborhood kids”. The current DLS team has more future D1 players on their roster this year (sophs, jrs & srs) than schools in their league like Cal High or Amador Valley have had in the last 10 years combined.

Just because other teams like IMG and MD get more D1 players doesn’t mean DLS doesn’t get far more than their fair share.

 

[observer22]

Well I’m sure you will enjoy this upcoming fifth consecutive post-season implosion by the Dodgers. Round: TBD.

The Dodgers are actually headed for their 6th straight NL West title if they can hold off the Rockies. Not quite the Braves or Yankees division title strings, but that’s more than the 5 the A’s strung together 71-75.

 

[remc]

DLS may have had fewer D1 players than one might think given their success, but they’ve had a heck of a lot more D1 players than most of the public schools they play who use “neighborhood kids”. The current DLS team has more future D1 players on their roster this year (sophs, jrs & srs) than schools in their league like Cal High or Amador Valley have had in the last 10 years combined.

Just because other teams like IMG and MD get more D1 players doesn’t mean DLS doesn’t get far more than their fair share.

How many would you say this year? I’m talking how many D1 prospects will graduate this year?

 

[remc]

DLS may have had fewer D1 players than one might think given their success, but they’ve had a heck of a lot more D1 players than most of the public schools they play who use “neighborhood kids”. The current DLS team has more future D1 players on their roster this year (sophs, jrs & srs) than schools in their league like Cal High or Amador Valley have had in the last 10 years combined.

Just because other teams like IMG and MD get more D1 players doesn’t mean DLS doesn’t get far more than their fair share.

Yes, they have more than the local public schools they play. But they play teams every year that have more than they do as well. This year, Folsom has more D1 prospects, so does Bishop Gorman if you count Sophs, Juniors, and Seniors. And if they make the Open State Championship game they will absolutely have far less than any of the SoCal schools they might face. It’s not like they just play overmatched local schools.

 

[observer22]

How many would you say this year? I’m talking how many D1 prospects will graduate this year?

Judging by the pre-Folsom game talk on here, it sounded like DLS had conservatively 6 D1 prospects on D alone. I believe 3-4 of them have already received offers. Cal High has had less than 6 D1 players in the last 10 years combined. Bubba’s kid is one of the only ones to even see much playing time.

 

[remc]

Judging by the pre-Folsom game talk on here, it sounded like DLS had conservatively 6 D1 prospects on D alone. I believe 3-4 of them have already received offers. Cal High has had less than 6 D1 players in the last 10 years combined. Bubba’s kid is one of the only ones to even see much playing time.

Well out of the 6 on D, Totot’o, Foskey , Garrett,play both ways. The corner 14, whose name escapes me, and a Tagaloa on the line. So I count 5 total prospects this year. May have missed 1 but these are who I’d guess

 

[observer22]

Well out of the 6 on D, Totot’o, Foskey , Garrett,play both ways. The corner 14, whose name escapes me, and a Tagaloa on the line. So I count 5 total prospects this year. May have missed 1 but these are who I’d guess

OK, but my point was that although not every player on DLS is a D1 or even college player, every year they are loaded with more talent than most of the public schools in their league. So having to play against teams with more talent that get players from all over is something they deal with every year. Now that the IMGs and MDs of the football landscape are bringing in superior talent, DLS is getting to see what that is like. I'm not saying they recruit, lord knows that horse has been beaten to death, but they do attract more talent than the teams in their league get in their "neighborhood kids".

Whether playing teams with superior talent is fair or not is an age old issue.

 

[RedZone90]

I find it somewhat amusing that the big debate here is about private schools and academies attracting top players to create "all-star" teams when the CA high school football landscape advantages are already ridiculously tilted in favor of a select few private schools. How is the playing field "level" when these private schools can pay coaches six-figure salaries vs a meager public school stipend? How is the playing field level when a player can transfer to a private school and is immediately eligable to play vs having to relocate or sit out games if they transfer to a public high school? All the advantages are already there for private schools. Now its just a race to the top.

 

[Streak One]

I think the distinction is compared to national powers, De La Salle has fewer D1 prospects than most. Looking at it on the local level and yes De La Salle's talent level is generally at the top.

So, both points of views are right. Just depends on what your grading scale is

 

[Hatchball]

I find it somewhat amusing that the big debate here is about private schools and academies attracting top players to create "all-star" teams when the CA high school football landscape advantages are already ridiculously tilted in favor of a select few private schools. How is the playing field "level" when these private schools can pay coaches six-figure salaries vs a meager public school stipend? How is the playing field level when a player can transfer to a private school and is immediately eligable to play vs having to relocate or sit out games if they transfer to a public high school? All the advantages are already there for private schools. Now its just a race to the top.

Public school transfers no longer need to sit out. Also, private school teachers make far less than public school teachers pretty much across the board.

6 years old but the salaries should still be relevant, if not a tad higher -

https://www.occonnect.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=16314

 

[RedZone90]

Public school transfers no longer need to sit out. Also, private school teachers make far less than public school teachers pretty much across the board.

6 years old but the salaries should still be relevant, if not a tad higher -

https://www.occonnect.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=16314

Public school transfers have to sit out if they don't move into the school's district boundaries. Private school transfers have no such restrictions.

 

[aztecpadre]

I have a middle of the road take.

I don't personally like the schools going the academy route like MD, IMG, etc...I think it takes away from high school football and what it truly should be.

But- I also realize that we are lucky to live in a country that has choices. We can either chose to watch or not to watch schools like this. I personally do not watch and pay zero attention to these schools. My focus is generally on the local level. I love the local rivalries. I love the traditions. I love getting the chance to play a great team from another section at the end of the year. That is what I truly love about HSFB.

My proposal would be to keep choice, but to separate. Schools that want to recruit, accept/encourage transfers, should be considered or rolled into "academies," or whatever you'd like to call them. They can form their own leagues, conferences, playoffs, against each other. I think this would be rather interesting. Who knows, maybe have a championship game at the end of the year to pit the best traditional HS against the best academy. That would be fun IMO.

Thoughts?

With you on this one. We live in a country, where we have the right to choose where we can send our kids to school. For some its about sports, for others it could be about the band. Whatever the case is, I would not want anybody telling me where I can and can't send my kids to school. Unless of course its a public school, in which case there are boundaries. But, if I am paying for a private school, then that's my business and not anybody else's.

 

[aztecpadre]

And BTW, I watch that game and it was one of the best hard fought game's I have ever seen, because of the amount of great talent that was on the field.

 

[aztecpadre]

First of all, I did watch the game -- along with the DLS-Buchanan. I was certainly interested in the outcome and wanted to see a team comprised mostly with talent from CA represent against a program that recruits from everywhere. If you think about, IMG is essentially a D1 college team that gets these star players for a year or two and before the real colleges get their hands on them.

The talent these teams recruited and fielded is what the US Army All-American Bowl is for. I don't like seeing a handful of private school programs/academies (Bishop Gorman, IMG, Mater Dei, St. John Bosco, etc) gather all the best talent across the country to play 2-3 meaningful games a year. Seriously, those teams are rarely threatened over a 10-16 game season most every year. What's the point?

I'm glad GA and TX have refused to play IMG and that CA is following suit. What IMG is doing is over the line IMO. It's one thing to train teenaged tennis players for solo pro careers and another to cherry pick the very best football players from all over the country to play a team sport.

While I don't like all the transferring that occurs throughout SoCal -- at least they're fielding teams with players from SoCal. But I still feel this compiling of players is best suited for all-star games -- not for 10+ game seasons where the all-star team is an overwhelming favorite to win in dominating fashion 98% of the time.

MD, SJB will be tested in the Trinity. Especially against each other. Come playoffs, you can throw in CEN10 to the mix as well. For me, its about what every family thinks is best for their kids. I for one, enjoy watching the talent on the field and look forward to DLS taking on the Goliath's of the south in the Open Bowl game. Would make a victory for the North even sweeter. Long live the King of the north, first of his name, protector of NorCal pride. Lol

 

[FormerD1Backer]

I think the distinction is compared to national powers, De La Salle has fewer D1 prospects than most. Looking at it on the local level and yes De La Salle's talent level is generally at the top.

So, both points of views are right. Just depends on what your grading scale is

Spoken like a true moderator!

 

[1315]

It doesn’t hurt that 30% of the student body get financial assistance and the average is 50% of tuition. Probably not the kids from Danville, LOL.

O22 is right. Kids can go to any private school they choose. Good for them. I put that 72k (well, 70 max in CA) in a 529/like, let it cook, and put it toward some great college performances which far outweigh some patch on the back of a letterman’s jacket. To each his own.

 

[SOCALPREP1]

Wth. How did the discussion get to HGH, steroids, dodgers and warriors.

 

[SpeedCity51]

It doesn’t hurt that 30% of the student body get financial assistance and the average is 50% of tuition. Probably not the kids from Danville, LOL.

O22 is right. Kids can go to any private school they choose. Good for them. I put that 72k (well, 70 max in CA) in a 529/like, let it cook, and put it toward some great college performances which far outweigh some patch on the back of a letterman’s jacket. To each his own.

Personally I think preschool-12 is more important then where someone does their undergrad. But you are right, to each their own.

 

[1315]

I’m specifically referring to 9-12 as far as paying tuition. K-12 is important, no doubt. Last time I checked, job recruiters ask “what have you done lately?” I.e., College. Grad Schools? Same thing.

 

[remc]

OK, but my point was that although not every player on DLS is a D1 or even college player, every year they are loaded with more talent than most of the public schools in their league. So having to play against teams with more talent that get players from all over is something they deal with every year. Now that the IMGs and MDs of the football landscape are bringing in superior talent, DLS is getting to see what that is like. I'm not saying they recruit, lord knows that horse has been beaten to death, but they do attract more talent than the teams in their league get in their "neighborhood kids".

Whether playing teams with superior talent is fair or not is an age old issue.

When did DLS start back playing EBAL league football games? I thought they were playing an independent schedule because the schools in the EBAL were complaining about the competitive disadvantage they had playing DLS every year.Which I have no problems with that, because there is truth in that.

 

[remc]

OK, but my point was that although not every player on DLS is a D1 or even college player, every year they are loaded with more talent than most of the public schools in their league. So having to play against teams with more talent that get players from all over is something they deal with every year. Now that the IMGs and MDs of the football landscape are bringing in superior talent, DLS is getting to see what that is like. I'm not saying they recruit, lord knows that horse has been beaten to death, but they do attract more talent than the teams in their league get in their "neighborhood kids".

Whether playing teams with superior talent is fair or not is an age old issue.

Yes, DLS is getting to see what it’s like, but they don’t whine about it. They take there losses and get back to work

 

[observer22]

Yes, DLS is getting to see what it’s like, but they don’t whine about it. They take there losses and get back to work

DLS might not be whining, but a lot of people on here are sure upset that those teams have assembled a lot of talent and that the playing field is no longer level.

 

[observer22]

When did DLS start back playing EBAL league football games? I thought they were playing an independent schedule because the schools in the EBAL were complaining about the competitive disadvantage they had playing DLS every year.Which I have no problems with that, because there is truth in that.

Actually, the independent schedule and automatic NCS bid ended this year, as the EBAL has grown to 10 teams now and was converted into 2 leagues of 5 teams each for football, the Mountain (A) and Valley (B). They play each of the other 4 teams in their league, and then some from the other league, which allows a lot more flexibility in scheduling.

Cal High and SRV were the only 2 schools to step up and schedule DLS every year they were independent from 2012-2017 (Pitt even stopped scheduling them a couple of years ago). The other 2 EBAL Mountain teams MV & Foothill played them most years, but not when they were down. It was the Valley teams that were not competitive with DLS that did not want to play them. That’s why DLS was allowed to go back to being independent from 12-17 like they arranged with the BVAL prior to 2008.