NCS Open/D1..... the NCS should he ashamed

[northbaybbguru]

San Marin is #8?????

Are you kidding me????

A D4? school who came in 3d place in their league???

Whats the spread v DLS? 60?

This seeding ....IS THE ANTITHESIS OF WHAT COMPETITIVE EQUITY IS SUPPOSED TO BE.

Cruikshank and the NCS committee should be ashamed of themselves.

Liberty a D1 school is the #1 seed in D2? And NOT in the D1/Open bracket!!!! Huh??? How does that work?

Stunningly incompetent by the committee!

 

[larry legend33]

Terrible. Absolute Joke. Should have been 4 teams.

 

[NCS707]

San Marin is #8?????

Are you kidding me????

A d5/d4? school who came in 3d place in their league???

Whats the spread v DLS? 60?

This seeding ....IS THE ANTITHESIS OF WHAT COMPETITIVE EQUITY IS SUPPOSED TO BE.

Cruikshank and the NCS committee should be ashamed of themselves.

Liberty a D1 school is the #1 seed in D2? And NOT in the D1/Open bracket!!!! Huh??? How does that work?

Stunningly incompetent by the committee!

Cruikshank is from the Liberty school district. This format is incredibly beneficial to all three schools in that district. They get to bypass the green machine and let North Bay schools be the cannon fodder.

The issue with only going 4 in D1 means 4 less teams in the bracket overall.

As I called earlier smaller schools got screwed. Willits was 8-2 and did not make it.

Some other egregious examples are 5-5 Antioch and 3-7 College Park got rewarded with D4 births.

Competitive Equity doesn’t work in NCS like the SS. There aren’t enough schools and you end up screwing the little guys, and rewarding the mediocre big boys. I’ve preached this for a year now. At least the CCS has the WCAL. There aren’t enough teams to have a full divison to compete with DLS. No body has the population or resources in the NCS to compete with DLS. It’s been 35 years. Every few years Pitt or SRV or Cal maybe CVC can give them a decent game at best.

 

[3Yards&ACloudOfDust]

Worst brackets I’ve seen since I have been following HS FB the last 30 years.

As poor as the Open Bracket is, the real shame is all of the traditional small schools that are left out of the playoffs. You have schools that are traditionally D2 playing in D5 and D6 which are pushing the D5 schools down to D7. What a joke.

How are Montgomery and Petaluma playing down in D6, and an 8-2 Willits is going to miss the D7 playoffs because schools like Del Norte and Fortuna who never play in lowest division (traditionally 2nd or 3rd to the lowest division) are pushed down to D7. What a joke. They should reseed all brackets.

THIS IS A ROYAL F-UP BY THE NCS!

 

[NCS707]

San Marin is #8?????

Are you kidding me????

A d5/d4? school who came in 3d place in their league???

Whats the spread v DLS? 60?

This seeding ....IS THE ANTITHESIS OF WHAT COMPETITIVE EQUITY IS SUPPOSED TO BE.

Cruikshank and the NCS committee should be ashamed of themselves.

Liberty a D1 school is the #1 seed in D2? And NOT in the D1/Open bracket!!!! Huh??? How does that work?

Stunningly incompetent by the committee!

San Marin D4 1200 students although usually they are 900-1000. They have maxed out their program. Coaches are doing an excellent job. Thy can’t compete with 1000 all boys from all over the east bay.

 

[larry legend33]

W

San Marin D4 1200 students although usually they are 900-1000. They have maxed out their program. Coaches are doing an excellent job. Thy can’t compete with 1000 all boys from all over the east bay.

Yes indeed. The lack of knowledge by the committee is remarkable. Total joke.

 

[Rocknrolus 95361]

San Marin D4 1200 students although usually they are 900-1000. They have maxed out their program. Coaches are doing an excellent job. Thy can’t compete with 1000 all boys from all over the east bay.

Central Catholic has less than 400 students. And they are playing in D1. This in my opinion is the flaw. They are in a GOOD year a D2 team. The VOL is a strange league anyway. Teams in D1, D2. D3 and D4. And have seeded teams in all 4. But it's the grind of playing in that league gets you ready for playoffs.

 

[NCS707]

Central Catholic has less than 400 students. And they are playing in D1. This in my opinion is the flaw. They are in a GOOD year a D2 team. The VOL is a strange league anyway. Teams in D1, D2. D3 and D4. And have seeded teams in all 4. But it's the grind of playing in that league gets you ready for playoffs.

For you this (San Marin Vs De La Salle) would be like Sonora or Escalon vs Folsom in D1 SJS.

We have Marin Catholic and Cardinal Newman which are just a bit larger than Central Catholic. I’d agree they are better in D2 but because they are private and have a large catchment area it’s understandable they are in D1 this year.

 

[FBAddict]

For you this (San Marin Vs De La Salle) would be like Sonora or Escalon vs Folsom in D1 SJS.

So you think Sonora or Escalon is the 8th best in the SJS section? Last I checked they were around #30 or so. Not a good comparison.

 

[kiddman32]

I am a strong believer in the "You play who they put in front of you" philosophy, but this is ridiculous at many levels if not all. So many mismatches, and wtf is that Open/D1 bracket? Do first-round Open losers, (er, runners-up) drop into D1 somewhere?

 

[larry legend33]

For you this (San Marin Vs De La Salle) would be like Sonora or Escalon vs Folsom in D1 SJS.

We have Marin Catholic and Cardinal Newman which are just a bit larger than Central Catholic. I’d agree they are better in D2 but because they are private and have a large catchment area it’s understandable they are in D1 this year.

CN use to play CC and they were great games. I wish those 2 would square off in a RBG. Last year CC was pretty dang good and gave OR who nearly beat Folsom a good game.

This year I think the winner of Newman vs MC will play SRV very tough and could very well beat them. Won't be easy on the road but My guess is there isn't that big of a gap between those schools from what I've seen. If you get to the champ and lose do you go home?

 

[MC415]

So you think Sonora or Escalon is the 8th best in the SJS section? Last I checked they were around #30 or so. Not a good

It’s a great comparison similar sized schools and I guarantee you the games between SM and those 2 would excellent down to the wire games

granite Bay the #8 would handle San Marin no problem……..schools like Granite Bay that are huge with numbers should be in open not schools like San Marin who are competitively the level of a escalón or Sonora

 

[Rocknrolus 95361]

CN use to play CC and they were great games. I wish those 2 would square off in a RBG. Last year CC was pretty dang good and gave OR who nearly beat Folsom a good game.

This year I think the winner of Newman vs MC will play SRV very tough and could very well beat them. Won't be easy on the road but My guess is there isn't that big of a gap between those schools from what I've seen. If you get to the champ and lose do you go home?

My nephew played the year Oakdale played CN. Great game
Joe Montana was at the game and actually signed autographs. Game difference was Oakdale had sophomore kicker missed 3 extra points. Max Pond made some great plays. That's the game that got me excited about high school football.

 

[bearphan]

MC may be without starting JR QB Caedon Afsharipour vs Newman which will definitely have a significant impact. They're probably also still missing WR Braiden Bachich-Dixon too.

 

[winetot]

The unfortunate reality is there is not a perfect system. I, personally, think the NCS has been screwing up EVERY sport for years. They have never put thought into their selection committees and it is, unfortunately, a "good ol boy" organization. They pretend to hide behind what they say is black and white but ultimately it has been a narcissistically run organization for decades. Three North Bay schools being in the Open is comical, especially if you are going to position Vintage High School as the #8 seed in Division 2. Vintage handily beat San Marin 1 week ago. Vintage lost to a Las Lomas team this year who was beaten by Northgate, Clayton Valley Charter and Campolindo. How in the WORLD is San Marin #8. This is what most people in our area call EAST BAY BIAS. We all can almost hear, "do whatever you can to keep us away from De La Salle." The NCS administrative team should be embarrassed but they do not care because they are focusing on NFHS and Gate monies for themselves....... UNFORTUNATE

 

[larry legend33]

MC may be without starting JR QB Caedon Afsharipour vs Newman which will definitely have a significant impact. They're probably also still missing WR Braiden Bachich-Dixon too.

That stinks. If Newman can't win with those guys out, they may never beat MC.

 

[Cal 14]

While I am surprised the NCS kept San Marin in D-1/Open, I think there is one thing on which most people would/should agree... the top division should be for the top teams from the top leagues. Am I right?

Am I right?

Yes?

Ok, but here's the problem with that... Redwood Empire-Adobe was the 2nd best league in the section this year. San Marin vs Liberty... are the Lions better? Liberty is certainly a bigger school, but I don't know that we can say they're better. Will the Lions rip through D-2? I don't think so. Would San Marin? Well, it might depend on what you think about that result against Vintage. Even if the NCS adopted a similar A-, B-, C-, and D-league scheme like in the CCS rather than using enrollment, you'd still probably end up with the same result. I mean, the RE-A is certainly better than the MHAL!

My own alma mater took 2nd in a CCS A-league, but was placed as the #8 seed in D-I/Open while a higher ranked/rated (Cal-Hi/Calpreps), A-league champion gets to be the #1 seed in D-II. It does suck, but in any of these competitive equity divisions, the cutoff has to be somewhere.

In my opinion, the issue is not that the NCS has a large number of small schools, but rather that it doesn't have a large number of good teams coming out of the big schools. The section was really top-heavy with more than solid De La Salle/Pittsburg, and a few really good teams in San Ramon Valley, Marin Catholic, and Cardinal Newman. Then the next several that could be largely interchangeable. In both the CCS and NCS, there is a strong argument that the top 8 teams in the respective sections really are in those top divisions.

NCS people have been spoiled far too long with having enrollment-based divisions where the same teams got to pound the same teams for section titles. Say what you will about San Marin being a small school with 1200 students, but CCS #6 in D-I (Soquel) is even smaller at 1096. Yet, no one is really complaining about that.

I don't really know that I have a lot of pity for the section, though. Yes, DLS remains the giant elephant in the room, but in the last few years, two teams from the CCS and SJS each have been able to beat them. But no one from the NCS? Hey, maybe this will finally be the year!

 

[observer22]

Looking at the bracket, there is no reason at all for San Marin to be in the Open/D1 bracket, much less facing DLS! Liberty finished 2nd to Pitt in a D1 league! Amador Valley would have also been a much better choice, as not only did they just force Cal into OT Friday, but they were the only EBAL Mountain team not to face DLS this year. This would/should have been their chance. Instead they get rewarded for losing, and placed down into the D2 bracket.

As far as 3-4-5-6 go, I’d much rather see CN play SRV & Cal play MC than have 2 rematches of league games that were just played a couple of weeks ago. Cal’s only 2 losses this year were to DLS & SRV. CN’s only loss was to MC. Sure it’s great they get another shot for revenge, but there’s only so many games in a season, why not allow them to play some other teams?

Edit - Looking at MaxPreps rankings, it appears the NCS committee took the lazy way out, and seeded the Open/D1 bracket exactly according to MP rankings, with the exception of El Cerrito who was excluded from the playoffs.

 

[bella123]

Terrible. Absolute Joke. Should have been 4 teams.

The unfortunate reality is there is not a perfect system. I, personally, think the NCS has been screwing up EVERY sport for years. They have never put thought into their selection committees and it is, unfortunately, a "good ol boy" organization. They pretend to hide behind what they say is black and white but ultimately it has been a narcissistically run organization for decades. Three North Bay schools being in the Open is comical, especially if you are going to position Vintage High School as the #8 seed in Division 2. Vintage handily beat San Marin 1 week ago. Vintage lost to a Las Lomas team this year who was beaten by Northgate, Clayton Valley Charter and Campolindo. How in the WORLD is San Marin #8. This is what most people in our area call EAST BAY BIAS. We all can almost hear, "do whatever you can to keep us away from De La Salle." The NCS administrative team should be embarrassed but they do not care because they are focusing on NFHS and Gate monies for themselves....... UNFORTUNATE

Adds to the argument to get rid of the sections.

 

[Cal 14]

Edit - Looking at MaxPreps rankings, it appears the NCS committee took the lazy way out, and seeded the Open/D1 bracket exactly according to MP rankings, with the exception of El Cerrito who was excluded from the playoffs.

... which was mostly what was in the NCS bylaws.

The only people who cry more about the seedings than NCS people are SS people.

 

[observer22]

... which was mostly what was in the NCS bylaws.

The only people who cry more about the seedings than NCS people are SS people.

I’m all for using rankings as a guide, but there needs to be some common sense applied. Amador Valley is a way better fit in the top bracket than San Marin. Nobody would have batted an eye if they were reversed.

 

[winetot]

... which was mostly what was in the NCS bylaws.

The only people who cry more about the seedings than NCS people are SS people.

The problem is not with the seedings, it's with the NCS in general. There is a clear disparity up and down the section(as it runs from East Bay through North Bay up to Del Norte). The ability to categorize a true strength of schedule with the current number system is off. The farther Northern schools, somehow, are credited with higher schedule strength AND only play each other. In this system smaller schools in D7 are going to get the short end of the stick. It is easy to say, just play them, beat them and then problem solved. However, schools are working with budgets and many do not see the cost benefit in sending their teams(ANY SPORTS) on 3 to 4 hour trips. In reality, the new adopted system does not nor will it be the same as it is with the CCS. Competitive Equity with a D2 size school playing down to a D4 enrollment base makes no sense. We will start seeing more transfers. The kids that will get hurt will be truly the small school kids. Outside of Marin Catholic, Cardinal Newman and San Marin, I think St. Vincent de Paul was the only other school to get BUMPED UP divisions. All others went down divisions. What makes the most sense in the NCS is the BEST play Open(that does not have to be 8 teams). But all those teams have a chance to move on even after a loss within their respected division. Then all other schools are placed in their appropriate enrollment division. At some point common sense should be taken into consideration.

 

[Cal 14]

I’m all for using rankings as a guide, but there needs to be some common sense applied. Amador Valley is a way better fit in the top bracket than San Marin. Nobody would have batted an eye if they were reversed.

As with the same argument I've used elsewhere: everyone knew the rules before the season started. It was literally written into the NCS bylaws what the application of the Calpreps ratings was going to be.


After Brexit passed in the UK, do you know what the #1 Google search in that country reportedly was the day after the election?

"What is Brexit?"

It's up to the member of the organization to stay informed. They don't get to complain about it after the fact.

 

[Cal 14]

The problem is not with the seedings, it's with the NCS in general. There is a clear disparity up and down the section(as it runs from East Bay through North Bay up to Del Norte). The ability to categorize a true strength of schedule with the current number system is off. The farther Northern schools, somehow, are credited with higher schedule strength AND only play each other.

I don't disagree that the more closed a system is, the more difficult it is for the Calpreps system to accurately gauge the strength of the teams. I believe there is an adjustment for the Northern Section, but I don't think there would be one for the northern portion of the North Coast Section. That said...

Cardinal Newman played:
- Vacaville, #2 team from the Monticello Empire, winner in the first round of the SJS D-II playoffs... beat them by 18.
- Bishop O'Dowd, champs of the West Alameda County-Foothill division, #4 seed in the NCS D-2 playoffs... beat them by 56.
- Pleasant Valley, champs of the Easter League, #1 seed of the NS D-II (top division) playoffs... beat them by 27.

Marin Catholic played:
- Inderkum, co-champ of the Capital Valley league, #4 seed of the SJS D-I playoffs... lost by 26.
- St. Mary's, champs of the Tri-City league, #2 seed of the SJS D-II playoffs... lost by 13.
- Manteca, champs of the Valley Oak league, #4 seed of the SJS D-II playoffs... beat them by 1 (gave them their only loss).
- Edison (Stockton), #2 team from the Tri-City league, #9 seed of the SJS D-I playoffs... beat them by 10.

San Marin played:
- Foothill (Palo Cedro), tied for 2nd in the Eastern League, #2 seed of the NS D-II playoffs... beat them by 20.

Windsor played:
- Campolindo, tied for 3rd in the Diablo-Foothill division, #3 seed of the NCS D-3 playoffs... beat them by 19.

I think we can both agree that the RE-A top teams went out of the area and demonstrated that their ratings were not due to a closed system.

In reality, the new adopted system does not nor will it be the same as it is with the CCS. Competitive Equity with a D2 size school playing down to a D4 enrollment base makes no sense. We will start seeing more transfers.

Alisal is the #2 seed of the CCS D-V playoffs. The school's enrollment is 2900. I can assure you that no one is transferring to Alisal for some sort of athletic competitive edge over small schools. Even if athletes started doing so, the team would start to do better and they'd no longer be in D-V. They were in D-III last year.

The largest school in the Pacific Coast-Gabilan division is Hollister at 3450 students. The Haybalers tied for 6th place (out of 7 teams... tied for last).

The real problem with this is the continued reliance on enrollment equating to team strength.

Outside of Marin Catholic, Cardinal Newman and San Marin, I think St. Vincent de Paul was the only other school to get BUMPED UP divisions. All others went down divisions.

Not true. Bishop O'Dowd is a base D-4 team who is competing in the D-2 playoffs.

Of course, you do understand that if Cardinal Newman and Marin Catholic move to the Open division, other teams will naturally have to drop as a result, right?

 

[Cal 14]

What makes the most sense in the NCS is the BEST play Open(that does not have to be 8 teams).

The section tried 4 teams years ago. The persistent complaint that it wasn't fair because no one could get past DLS. As a concession, the section came up with the current D-1/Open format, which would only work with 8 teams.

But all those teams have a chance to move on even after a loss within their respected division.

This is entirely untrue. In order for a team to advance after a loss, they would have to make it to the Open championship game.

 

[kiddman32]

Since the discussions here have boiled it down to the seedings being based almost solely on MaxPreps rankings, the thing that needs to be examined is MaxPreps.

Especially since results sent to MaxPreps aren't completely reliable. If bogus results are sent to MaxPreps, the rankings end up being bogus.

For example, since I lived in Oregon for 18 years, I do check on scores from up there. Their #1 seed in 6A (top division) is Lake Oswego, 9-0. However, two of their results on MaxPreps were obviously wrong, one being something like 222-10 and the other being 109-4. My guess is some goofball sent the wrong ones in to be "funny"). I found the scores on the official OSAA website and sent corrections in myself. The 222-10 score was quickly changed to the proper score and the 109-4 score correction was NOT changed.

In our system depending almost completely on MaxPreps rankings, the seedings would potentially have been quite bogus, especially if said "joker" sent in other stupidly wrong results elsewhere. Fortunately, Oregon has a different setup altogether, not using any rankings, only league standings.

Example here: Would the rankings and therefore the seedings changed if some idiot had sent in incorrect scores to Maxpreps and it hadn't been caught by the few that actually look at scores? Unless the results might not be right, the rankings might not be, either.

 

[winetot]

I don't disagree that the more closed a system is, the more difficult it is for the Calpreps system to accurately gauge the strength of the teams. I believe there is an adjustment for the Northern Section, but I don't think there would be one for the northern portion of the North Coast Section. That said...

Cardinal Newman played:
- Vacaville, #2 team from the Monticello Empire, winner in the first round of the SJS D-II playoffs... beat them by 18.
- Bishop O'Dowd, champs of the West Alameda County-Foothill division, #4 seed in the NCS D-2 playoffs... beat them by 56.
- Pleasant Valley, champs of the Easter League, #1 seed of the NS D-II (top division) playoffs... beat them by 27.

Marin Catholic played:
- Inderkum, co-champ of the Capital Valley league, #4 seed of the SJS D-I playoffs... lost by 26.
- St. Mary's, champs of the Tri-City league, #2 seed of the SJS D-II playoffs... lost by 13.
- Manteca, champs of the Valley Oak league, #4 seed of the SJS D-II playoffs... beat them by 1 (gave them their only loss).
- Edison (Stockton), #2 team from the Tri-City league, #9 seed of the SJS D-I playoffs... beat them by 10.

San Marin played:
- Foothill (Palo Cedro), tied for 2nd in the Eastern League, #2 seed of the NS D-II playoffs... beat them by 20.

Windsor played:
- Campolindo, tied for 3rd in the Diablo-Foothill division, #3 seed of the NCS D-3 playoffs... beat them by 19.

I think we can both agree that the RE-A top teams went out of the area and demonstrated that their ratings were not due to a closed system.


Alisal is the #2 seed of the CCS D-V playoffs. The school's enrollment is 2900. I can assure you that no one is transferring to Alisal for some sort of athletic competitive edge over small schools. Even if athletes started doing so, the team would start to do better and they'd no longer be in D-V. They were in D-III last year.

The largest school in the Pacific Coast-Gabilan division is Hollister at 3450 students. The Haybalers tied for 6th place (out of 7 teams... tied for last).

The real problem with this is the continued reliance on enrollment equating to team strength.


Not true. Bishop O'Dowd is a base D-4 team who is competing in the D-2 playoffs.

Of course, you do understand that if Cardinal Newman and Marin Catholic move to the Open division, other teams will naturally have to drop as a result, right?

I am really impressed with your detail. Great catch on O'Dowd. So O'Dowd and SVDP are the TWO teams that went down and WEIRD they are both private schools that have student/athletes from 3 counties. I understand Open/D1 teams dropping as a result of D6 Cardinal Newman and Marin Catholic moving to the Open for sure. I just do not think D2-D-5 schools should drop 2 divisions. I just think it is flawed. Maybe if you are really good you can move up divisions but if you are mediocre in your division you cannot move down. I have no idea the correct answer. I know that in the Redwood Empire there was a change in leagues and the only one that seems correct is the RE-A. Those games were all really competitive. I would have tried to avoid a rematch in the first round of Open. Maybe swap CN to 6 or MC to 3. As I have said, there is no perfect system. However I do not think NCS has a true understanding of competitive equity.

 

[Streak One]

The bigget issue with these new playoff formats is everyone gets to go to a NorCal/State game. And in some cases, losing in the regular season game can help you advance (see Amador Valley losing to California).

I think the discussion would be different if not every section champ advanced to NorCal and you could opt out of NorCals.

 

[winetot]

As with the same argument I've used elsewhere: everyone knew the rules before the season started. It was literally written into the NCS bylaws what the application of the Calpreps ratings was going to be.


After Brexit passed in the UK, do you know what the #1 Google search in that country reportedly was the day after the election?

"What is Brexit?"

It's up to the member of the organization to stay informed. They don't get to complain about it after the fact.

Actually, the Athletic Directors and Coaches voted this system down, it was overturned by the Board of Managers. There was another proposal put up by, I believe, a Boy's Basketball coach that was rejected. The proposal made sense for the people that understand athletics, it is unfortunate that we allow decisions to be made by people that cannot even spell athletics.

 

[NCS707]

Actually, the Athletic Directors and Coaches voted this system down, it was overturned by the Board of Managers. There was another proposal put up by, I believe, a Boy's Basketball coach that was rejected. The proposal made sense for the people that understand Athletics, it is unfortunate that we allow decisions to be made by people that cannot even spell Athletics.

Not very many schools moved up. Moving down is the joke. The ripple effect is that only 3 actual D7 schools made the playoffs. St Vincent, St Bernard’s, and Ferndale. There was no place for D7 schools to move down to so they didn’t make it at all. Willits was 8-2 and missed NCS.

Do the math. Look at where the NCS commissioner had his teaching/coaching/AD career. Look who benefits the most. The BVAL gets to avoid the DLS machine (minus Pitt) and move down to D2-D4 and the 1 league in the section who actually was created with competitive equity and all the teams played tough non league games, Redwood Empire Adobe, moved up.

Now I will admit CAL made some good points. CN and MC are solidly top 5 in NCS this year and their schedules reflect that. If CN didn’t get lemon booty at MC they could arguably be ranked 2. There just aren’t as many power larger publics in NCS right now. BVAL is way way down and EBAL is slightly down as well. The SJS is just much deeper, with the population and family centric growth out there it makes sense.

I know the NCS has the “DLS problem” and there is no easy solution. Like I’ve said before there really isn’t a school who can elevate themselves on a yearly basis to compete with them. Even Pitt is a Title I-low income school, they’ll get kids transferring in but many families avoid that environment. There’s no Folsom in the NCS. There’s no WCAL either. They’ve been alone on the mountain for 35 years and even before that for much of the 80s as well.

On a side note the Redwood leagues below the Adobe need some easy adjustments, mainly the 2 middle leagues have outliers.

Number of schools to make playoffs by division

D1: 10
D2: 11
D3: 10
D4: 9
D5: 5
D6: 7
D7: 4

 

[winetot]

Not very many schools moved up. Moving down is the joke. The ripple effect is that only 3 actual D7 schools made the playoffs. St Vincent, St Bernard’s, and Ferndale. There was no place for D7 schools to move down to so they didn’t make it at all. Willits was 8-2 and missed NCS.

Do the math. Look at where the NCS commissioner had his teaching/coaching/AD career. Look who benefits the most. The BVAL gets to avoid the DLS machine (minus Pitt) and move down to D2-D4 and the 1 league in the section who actually was created with competitive equity and all the teams played tough non league games, Redwood Empire Adobe, moved up.

Now I will admit CAL made some good points. CN and MC are solidly top 5 in NCS this year and their schedules reflect that. If CN didn’t get lemon booty at MC they could arguably be ranked 2. There just aren’t as many power larger publics in NCS right now. BVAL is way way down and EBAL is slightly down as well. The SJS is just much deeper, with the population and family centric growth out there it makes sense.

I know the NCS has the “DLS problem” and there is no easy solution. Like I’ve said before there really isn’t a school who can elevate themselves on a yearly basis to compete with them. Even Pitt is a Title I-low income school, they’ll get kids transferring in but many families avoid that environment. There’s no Folsom in the NCS. There’s no WCAL either. They’ve been alone on the mountain for 35 years and even before that for much of the 80s as well.

On a side note the Redwood leagues below the Adobe need some easy adjustments, mainly the 2 middle leagues have outliers.

Number of schools to make playoffs by division

D1: 10
D2: 11
D3: 10
D4: 9
D5: 5
D6: 7
D7: 4

I could not agree more on the Redwood leagues. Napa and Justin-Siena should swap with SVDP and Ukiah in Group 2 and Group 3 respectively and then Sonoma should replace Justin-Siena in Group 3, moving Justin-Siena to Group 4. The future of Justin-Siena football has some work to do and if they stay in Group 2, they may have to start over with JV and Frosh teams.

 

[THEOC89]

I’m all for using rankings as a guide, but there needs to be some common sense applied. Amador Valley is a way better fit in the top bracket than San Marin. Nobody would have batted an eye if they were reversed.

Totally!!.,,, This is pretty Egregious….

San Marin vs DLS…. Enough Said, Should be AV or Liberty…. Those are D1 teams….

Miramonte in D6….. They were D5 Champs last year, how does the defending D5 champ move down to D6?….

Tamalpias and College park 2, 3 win teams in the playoffs, Rediculous…. I am sure there are 2 teams with winning records that could have filled those spots….

I will speak to College Park since I am a Booster….. I am really happy for the Seniors, they have had 3 coaches in 3 years, there are a lot of great kids on that team….. So I look forward to supporting them at their playoff game….

But give me a Break…. They lost to D6 Miramonte and D5 Salisian…. They only beat Alhambra and Benicia who are both Terrible teams and Concord who looks like a Pop Warner team out there….. CP taking up a Playoff spot for a lower division team that had a better record is Ridiculous….

The NCS got this all wrong…. All these sections are trying to game the system to get as many teams to SBG’s as possible….. I am with @bella123 , get rid of the sections, this is a joke…. 🤣

 

[Cal 14]

Since the discussions here have boiled it down to the seedings being based almost solely on MaxPreps rankings, the thing that needs to be examined is MaxPreps.

Especially since results sent to MaxPreps aren't completely reliable. If bogus results are sent to MaxPreps, the rankings end up being bogus.

For example, since I lived in Oregon for 18 years, I do check on scores from up there. Their #1 seed in 6A (top division) is Lake Oswego, 9-0. However, two of their results on MaxPreps were obviously wrong, one being something like 222-10 and the other being 109-4. My guess is some goofball sent the wrong ones in to be "funny"). I found the scores on the official OSAA website and sent corrections in myself. The 222-10 score was quickly changed to the proper score and the 109-4 score correction was NOT changed.

In our system depending almost completely on MaxPreps rankings, the seedings would potentially have been quite bogus, especially if said "joker" sent in other stupidly wrong results elsewhere. Fortunately, Oregon has a different setup altogether, not using any rankings, only league standings.

Example here: Would the rankings and therefore the seedings changed if some idiot had sent in incorrect scores to Maxpreps and it hadn't been caught by the few that actually look at scores? Unless the results might not be right, the rankings might not be, either.

Ok, I'm not sure why we still have to have this discussion 20 years in, but Maxpreps does not generate the computer ratings. That comes from Calpreps. There is no 109-4 score on Calpreps for Lake Oswego.

calpreps.com

 

[Cal 14]

The bigget issue with these new playoff formats is everyone gets to go to a NorCal/State game. And in some cases, losing in the regular season game can help you advance (see Amador Valley losing to California).

I think the discussion would be different if not every section champ advanced to NorCal and you could opt out of NorCals.

It was the schools complaining about the restrictive old CIF system that lead to this current one.

Bottom line is that someone will always complain.

 

[larry legend33]

Well, here goes my predictions.....

Round 1

DLS 49
SM 7
As we all talked about. SM belongs in a lower division, and this will be over quickly. DLS will take foot off the gas in 2nd half.

Pitt 42
CVC 14

Pitt is too fast and deep for CVC. Another game that is over quickly.


SRV 35
CAL 24

This will be a good game with these opponents playing on 10.11 where SRV prevailed 38-26.
I think SRV pulls away but not until 4th.

Newman 17
MC 10

This assumes MC is without QB. Very hard beating a good team 2x in the same season. I think Newman figures a few things out on Offense and is able to get a couple scores and a FG. Both defenses are outstanding. If MC QB is able to play and he's near 100% this will be there game to lose at home.

I do think the winner of Newman and MC will give SRV all they can handle.

 

[THEOC89]

It was the schools complaining about the restrictive old CIF system that lead to this current one.

Bottom line is that someone will always complain.

True…. Someone will Always complain….

And if El Cerrito doesn’t blow up this year, EC is in the Open and San Marin is not and it looks a lot better….

Personally, I just hate 3 and 4 win teams dropping down divisions and taking up playoff spots, doesn’t make any sense to me and it never has…. 🤷‍♂️

 

[Cal 14]

Not very many schools moved up. Moving down is the joke. The ripple effect is that only 3 actual D7 schools made the playoffs. St Vincent, St Bernard’s, and Ferndale. There was no place for D7 schools to move down to so they didn’t make it at all. Willits was 8-2 and missed NCS.

Do the math. Look at where the NCS commissioner had his teaching/coaching/AD career. Look who benefits the most. The BVAL gets to avoid the DLS machine (minus Pitt) and move down to D2-D4 and the 1 league in the section who actually was created with competitive equity and all the teams played tough non league games, Redwood Empire Adobe, moved up.

Now I will admit CAL made some good points. CN and MC are solidly top 5 in NCS this year and their schedules reflect that. If CN didn’t get lemon booty at MC they could arguably be ranked 2. There just aren’t as many power larger publics in NCS right now. BVAL is way way down and EBAL is slightly down as well. The SJS is just much deeper, with the population and family centric growth out there it makes sense.

I know the NCS has the “DLS problem” and there is no easy solution. Like I’ve said before there really isn’t a school who can elevate themselves on a yearly basis to compete with them. Even Pitt is a Title I-low income school, they’ll get kids transferring in but many families avoid that environment. There’s no Folsom in the NCS. There’s no WCAL either. They’ve been alone on the mountain for 35 years and even before that for much of the 80s as well.

On a side note the Redwood leagues below the Adobe need some easy adjustments, mainly the 2 middle leagues have outliers.

Number of schools to make playoffs by division

D1: 10
D2: 11
D3: 10
D4: 9
D5: 5
D6: 7
D7: 4

I understand your concern about many of the smaller programs being pushed out, but I don't think the use of Calpreps is exclusively to blame for that. I think the bigger problem may be that each league only gets one automatic bid.

Your example of Willits applies here, since they took 2nd place in the North Central I league. I would guess that in just about every other section, the Wolverines would have advanced.

If the NCS wanted to implement a tiered system for super regions like in the CCS, that's fine. This might mean something like the RE-A getting for auto bids, the RE-B and -V both getting two each, then the RE-M only getting one... that could make more sense. The DFAL and EBAL could do something similar. The North Central teams, however, don't have that unless you count the 8-man teams. That league should be getting at least 2 bids. By the opposite token, do all 5 DFAL-Foothill teams need to advance?

The CCS added more safeguards for the teams in the lower leagues this year. We'll see how it plays out, but so far the brackets look reasonable. The NCS should probably do something similar.

 

[Cal 14]

And if El Cerrito doesn’t blow up this year, EC is in the Open and San Marin is not and it looks a lot better….

Definitely true.

Personally, I just hate 3 and 4 win teams dropping down divisions and taking up playoff spots, doesn’t make any sense to me and it never has…. 🤷‍♂️

The initial divisions were not real. That's what people need to understand. They were only starting points.

The insistence on enrollment divisions is what lead to all of the blowouts people complained about. That's what lead most other sections to adopt competitive equity in the first place.

I do think the NCS needs safeguards for the leagues with smaller schools, an increased number of automatic bids being the biggest one, IMO. This would start to include more smaller schools and exclude some of the marginal bigger schools.

True…. Someone will Always complain….

Yes.

 

[northbaybbguru]

Definitely true.


The initial divisions were not real. That's what people need to understand. They were only starting points.

The insistence on enrollment divisions is what lead to all of the blowouts people complained about. That's what lead most other sections to adopt competitive equity in the first place.

I do think the NCS needs safeguards for the leagues with smaller schools, an increased number of automatic bids being the biggest one, IMO. This would start to include more smaller schools and exclude some of the marginal bigger schools.


Yes.

Lets be real....The move to 16 team brackets (for $$$) in divisions with only 24 teams back in the day led to the 1st round blowouts. U put teams in the playoffs that don't deserve it and then seed them against the powers in the division of course u are going to get blowouts. When the divisions were only 8 they were much more competitive.

 

[northbaybbguru]

Lets be real....The move to 16 team brackets (for $$$) in divisions with only 24 teams back in the day led to the 1st round blowouts. U put teams in the playoffs that don't deserve it and then seed them against the powers in the division of course u are going to get blowouts. When the divisions were only 8 they were much more competitive.

This is what led to CE. When in reality if they stop putting EVERY team that could walk and chew gum into the playoffs we wouldn't have needed it.